I think your main reservations with the chart come down to fundamental differences in charting ideology and overlooked sounds.
First 10 seconds
In the intro you establish this pattern of 1/4 LNs and singles. The 1/4 LNs appear to be attached to chords with notes in the bass clef, except this is only true some of the times. There are notes like this 00:02:984 (2984|0) - which is clearly has a bass sound attached to it.
Looking at a screenshot like this
You'd think that the notes in col 4 would have some very specific and strong purpose. This section is practically 3+1 and that's ok when it makes sense but...
It doesn't.
The one highlighted in blue isn't special and sounds just like the rest. But the note after it is a strong high note so maybe the theme is that col 4 is meant to launch you into the next bar? No because there are notes like this 00:04:083 (4083|3) -
PR'ing a countermelody and not the main melody has always been an acceptable method of patterning. I wouldn't have done it, but this is an acceptable patterning approach. The reason for this is that PRing two different melodies can clash, and trying to accommodate for one or the other while keeping the existence of pitch relevance for both melodies could make the patterns appear arbitrary. ExaVid's intro falls under this category.
The strict allocation of sounds to the 4th column seems like a misread on your end; the placement of 1/2s (barring the countermelody) are arbitrary, but it's no more arbitrary than people using any kind of double to accommodate for the presence of a bass kick. It's not ideal, but again, it's perfectly acceptable, and arbitrary patterning has been used in a multitude of ranked mapsets. The only point that I agree with would be the accidental ignorance of a note in the countermelody (e.g. 2.984), which could be accidentally ignored because it was on another octave.
00:20:837 (20837|1) - While we're on weird 1/6 notes, this should also be on the blue tick, I understand there is a sound there but there it is definitely not 1/6
There is a sound on the 1/6 tick. Other positions are not as valid because the sound is on the 1/6 tick.
00:21:047 (21047|2,21073|0) - "arpeggioing" a snare like this is weird. A snare drum is hit once so having multiple notes at different times for the same sound doesn't really make sense. It also breaks the rule of "each note must be mapped to a distinct sound"
This is fairly standard accentuation in "technically correct" 4K charting, and it has been used in conventional charting before. People use grace notes to accentuate certain buzz sounds, and people also use LNs to accentuate sounds that are not long. Unfortunately there aren't any mapsets that are ranked that utilise accentuation for instruments like that, but I thought a double would've been too concrete because the snare is very airy. It can be a standard double for sure since it's still a snare, but he wanted to emphasise the airiness of it. The lack of ranked mapsets that utilise accentuation of that nature does make this section contentious however, as much I see accentuation like this is used in multiple 4K communities that use a judging system more stringent than osu!mania's.
00:40:209 (40209|0) - The transition between the sounds you are mapping starting from this bar is weird and janky because it just kind of randomly changes without a clear divison in the music or patterning. There are notes here which are mapped to both, some that are mapped to one and some that are mapped to the other. It plays out so the only way to make sense of it is in the editor
How is it janky by any metric? He was layering the bells, and then the main synth when the bells are no longer present. There's no way of signalling a change here because of the presence of both rhythms are sudden. They are clear components of the music, and he layered them accordingly. There is a underlying (primary) melody in the bar you pointed out, but layering both the primary melody and the bells here creates convoluted patterning.
00:41:099 (41099|3) - this map is also a ghosttown (ha)
This is part of the bell. It's an echo, but there's a sound regardless. Echoes can be charted if they are prominent enough, and the echo here is arguably prominent enough. Considering how he has layered doubles (i.e. liberally), I think placing a note there is justifiable.
This maps flow from one sound to another through patterning is janky, the LN lengths are weird and inconsistent and there are ghost notes left and right. None of these seem to be mistakes but rather done to make the map edgy and random so it stands out.
Most of the chart utilises standard percussion-based layering, but with a situational rule: when 1/4s are present in a section and there are two bass kicks of the same type in a span of a 1/4 beat, the second bass kick will be a single, and the single will be on one of the two columns that the double that corresponded to the bass kick. This, again, is fairly standard layering. Many charters utilise that in mapsets to reduce the difficulty of a section that would've been too difficult if the rule was set. I don't agree with that kind of rule because there are better alternatives, but what I believe is ideal is not the only valid way to layer something according to ranking criteria.
Many sections that utilise more unconventional snapping/patterning (e.g. 40.209, 01:01:256 - ,) are justified by the existence of prominent rhythms or sounds present in the track. It would be unrealistic to layer both these prominent rhythms and the percussion because the end product will not be unambiguously representative of the "musical essence" of that section. They are justified not only through the presence of those sounds, but also the fact that these notes correspond to the presence of a sound in those particular moments. The only arbitrariness present, from what I can tell, are the LN lengths, and I do not utilise LN lengths as accentuation enough for me to say whether or not his accentuation is particularly out of bounds. I don't know of many ranked mapsets that utilise arbitrarily long LN lengths as well, partially because I'm not interested in accentuation of that kind, so I won't judge whether or not what he did is appropriate according to existing mapsets in the ranked section. The rest of the chart however, utilises standard accentuation that is well within the realm of technically correct 4K charting.
--
For what it's worth, I don't think ExaVid is a great chart, nor do I think it's even that good. My reservations with the chart stem from his layering, but there are many ranked mapsets that have issues that stem from liberal layering (e.g. Trigger, PLANET//SHAPER, Memoria, Zettai Raido, Tokyo Teddy Bear, and way more), so I don't think the chart is unrankable because of that. My opinion of the chart has no bearing on the rankability of this chart, especially when other charts that I consider to have similar but larger problems are ranked. You don't seem to have a reservation with his percussion layering based on your mod, however.
There's not much in the chart (that I can properly judge) that is unrankable, nor do I see many characteristics of it being a dump chart (or at least a chart that has some minor properties of dump charts). There are some non-conventional layering approaches here, but it is still strictly justified by the track itself. The only exception would be LN lengths, which, again, I don't wish to judge because I would be stepping out of my boundaries of understanding.
Lastly,
Abraxos is not going to give up his semi dump, and I'm not going to agree to let it through. I don't claim to be able to see the future but this ain't gonna go anywhere
Aren't you forcing an impasse by not wanting to interact with him? You assumed that he was obstinate from the start by not giving many suggestions (other than one that he didn't agree with because his current configuration is more representative of the track than your suggestion). You did point out some sections that appear to be erroneous, but these sections either utilise conventional (but not as foundational) charting techniques that fall well within the realm of technically correct charting, or are not erroneous because they're justified by the presence and correct correspondence of sounds in the track.
I modded through this chart with him an hour ago, and while he seemed unsure about some of the suggestions I gave him, they were grounded by understandable concerns. He wanted to emphasise a different sound, but I felt his method of emphasis wasn't the most straight-forward, so I thought it would be better to remove the accentuation of that sound altogether. There are also some fundamental layering errors which were ironed out. There are some unconventional patterns that I felt were too arbitrary due to similar sounds having a completely different pattern, which he agreed on the basis of consistency, despite not being fully comfortable with it.
mod, no kds please[1:09 PM] Erin: the main reservation I have is that there aren't any ranked charts that use ghost notes in the same manner you did
[1:11 PM] _A: where are the ghosts then
[1:11 PM] _A: don't think they're too hard to remove
[1:11 PM] _A: unless it's part of something
[1:11 PM] Erin: they're not "ghost" in a sense that they're not justified to anything at all
[1:11 PM] Erin: they're ghost in a sense that certain sounds correspond to two different moments of the chart
[1:12 PM] Erin: e.g. a flam
[1:12 PM] Erin: like the snare bit
[1:12 PM] _A: what snare bit?
[1:12 PM] Erin: the 1/12
[1:12 PM] _A: those aren't even ghosts
[1:12 PM] _A: honestly i think the separation in hands is enough to tell the difference
[1:12 PM] _A: unless somewhere i placed them on the same hand
[1:13 PM] Erin: 31
[1:13 PM] _A: which then would be wrong
[1:13 PM] _A: oh those
[1:13 PM] _A: well those are an easy fix lmao
[1:13 PM] Erin: i can probably say that they go to echo but that's still not particularly sound(edited)
[1:13 PM] _A: though i'd like it to be there but if you don't want it then that's fine
[1:14 PM] _A: i can use some double LN thing
[1:15 PM] _A: is just fine as well
[1:16 PM] _A: edited btw
[1:16 PM] Erin: the [14] here should be 4 https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/discord/200566180233084928-392183256277188609-unknown.png
[1:16 PM] Erin: 21.xxx(edited)
[1:16 PM] Erin: there's two bass kicks of the same type
[1:16 PM] _A: uhhh
[1:16 PM] _A: im blind help
[1:16 PM] Erin: hm?
[1:16 PM] _A: cant see shit
[1:16 PM] _A: circle?
[1:17 PM] Erin: uhhh
[1:17 PM] Erin: it's the one with the 1/6
[1:17 PM] Erin: basically there's two bass kicks of the same type, and you layered both as doubles
[1:17 PM] _A: ok i see
[1:17 PM] _A: this thin
[1:17 PM] _A: edited
[1:17 PM] Erin: ye
[1:17 PM] Erin: it happens throughout, seems like a mistake
[1:17 PM] _A: im dumbo
[1:17 PM] Erin: because you've done the same for every other bass kick
[1:17 PM] _A: ya edited for that part and uh
[1:17 PM] _A: lemme find
[1:18 PM] Erin: you did miss the bass note in 2.984 btw
[1:18 PM] _A: dont think there's another part in the song that's the same
[1:18 PM] _A: 2.984?
[1:18 PM] Erin: it's of a higher octave
[1:18 PM] Erin: that's probably why you missed it
[1:18 PM] Erin: yeah, the intro
[1:19 PM] _A: i went by what i heard honestly
[1:19 PM] _A: and if i didn't hear it at the time i personally think it's not worth LNing
[1:20 PM] Erin: well again, it's of a higher octave
[1:20 PM] _A: hmmmm
[1:20 PM] _A: i could stackem
[1:20 PM] _A: if you want
[1:20 PM] Erin: you can just make it a LN on 1(edited)
[1:20 PM] _A: but but
[1:20 PM] Erin: higher octave
[1:20 PM] _A: the other LNs are lower
[1:20 PM] Erin: in conventional PR, an ascending piano melody will be patterned as 1234123412341234
[1:21 PM] _A: :(
[1:21 PM] Erin: it functions as a fiat octave
[1:21 PM] _A: i thought the stacking idea was cooler
[1:21 PM] Erin: "hurrrr random"
[1:21 PM] _A: gr
[1:21 PM] _A: ugh it feels weird making this the same
[1:22 PM] _A: gay or not gay https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/discord/200566180233084928-392184812258983937-unknown.png?width=838&height=472
[1:22 PM] Erin: that's probably fine, accentuation and all
[1:22 PM] _A: ha
[1:23 PM] _A: gotem
[1:23 PM] Erin: and I don't know of any mapsets that utilise accents(edited)
[1:23 PM] _A: those charts aren't my charts you see
[1:23 PM] _A: edited
[1:24 PM] Erin: for 9.267, why is the LN 1/6 length exactly? the LNs go to the bass melody yes, but I'm unsure of why the length of it is different from others?
[1:24 PM] Erin: because it's a briefer sound?
[1:24 PM] _A: it's a completely different tone for the main synth
[1:24 PM] _A: but the bass stays the same
[1:25 PM] _A: so for bass it's LN and same column
then for main ir's just the change in LN length(edited)
[1:25 PM] _A: t
[1:25 PM] _A: fnigne
[1:25 PM] Erin: that's a fairly... complicated structure
[1:25 PM] _A: is it?
[1:25 PM] _A: the first iteration introduced the player to the bass ln concept
[1:25 PM] Erin: yes, but the LNs are all of the same length
[1:25 PM] Erin: iirc
[1:25 PM] _A: in the second iteration there's a change and hence the length here changes which is a new thing
[1:26 PM] _A: so players are already used to the bass ln thing
[1:26 PM] Erin: yes, but they wouldn't expect the LN lengths to change because the melody is practically the same
[1:26 PM] Erin: it'd be more blatant for layering
[1:26 PM] Erin: but I don't think it's entirely conspicuous with LN lengths
[1:26 PM] _A: would it be better if i made 00:02:984 - different lengths from the usual 1/4(edited)
[1:27 PM] _A: honestly speaking the tone there is diminished so it already warrants some form of differentiation
[1:27 PM] Erin: I think it's better to make everything the same length since you're PRing the bass countermelody, and the more straight-forward approach would be to have LN lengths correspond to the presence of the bass synth
[1:27 PM] Erin: I know what you're doing, don't get me wrong
[1:28 PM] Erin: but it's hard to track
[1:28 PM] _A: i really don't like that because it ignores the whole point of the diminished tone there
[1:28 PM] _A: it doesn't sit well with me at all
[1:29 PM] _A: what if i stacked the notes there then
[1:29 PM] _A: wait lemme
[1:29 PM] Erin: stacking would be odd to emphasise something that's diminishing in presence
[1:30 PM] _A: https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/sutXXYT.png first iteration https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/2qufard.png second
diminished notes sound awkward because they leave the listener hanging - there's not a lot of ways of presenting this awkwardness
[1:32 PM] Erin: see like I don't agree with this technique personally, mostly because I can't tell much of a fundamental difference between the melodies(edited)
[1:32 PM] _A: hmm
[1:32 PM] _A: well
[1:32 PM] _A: if you asked me ranking this is pretty secondary
[1:32 PM] _A: so you don't have to take that into account
[1:33 PM] Erin: but it's brought up regardless
[1:33 PM] _A:
>> mostly because I can't tell much of a fundamental difference between the melodies
i just cannot agree because of how diminished tones function really
[1:33 PM] _A: i mean
[1:33 PM] _A: it's just not the same feeling
[1:34 PM] Erin: is this the only LN that has a different length?
[1:34 PM] Erin: i can't tell atm since I'm using arrowvortex
[1:34 PM] _A: i can make it such that it's the only one, or accompanied by the higher octave 00:02:984 - ones here (these then will be 1/3 long)
[1:35 PM] Erin: if it's the only sound with a diminished tone (out of the entire introduction), you can justify the shorter LN length with the presence of a diminished tone
[1:35 PM] Erin: I don't agree with it fundamentally, but you can justify it that way
[1:35 PM] Erin: it's not random because it's the only time it appears
[1:36 PM] Erin: it can be arguably arbitrary, but if there's a fundamental difference in sound, the only arbitrariness of that is the fact that it's of a shorter length
[1:36 PM] Erin: but again, that's how accentuation works in the first place
[1:36 PM] Erin: a lot of people use LNs for accentuate sounds that aren't long, etc.
[1:37 PM] _A: so uh
[1:38 PM] _A: i'm keeping it i guess
[1:38 PM] Erin: it's the only one like that so
[1:38 PM] _A: i made the uhh higher octave one 1/4 long
[1:38 PM] _A: ya
[1:38 PM] Erin: yeah, fine then
[1:38 PM] _A: is that all?
[1:39 PM] Erin: nah, there's more
[1:39 PM] _A: how much more
[1:40 PM] _A: be quick i kinda need to like
[1:40 PM] Erin: there's a few more "ghost notes"
[1:40 PM] _A: do work stuff
[1:40 PM] Erin: ""
[1:40 PM] _A: lol where
[1:41 PM] Erin: you know that place where he mentioned that it was a ghost town or so?
[1:41 PM] _A: i've already talked about this
[1:41 PM] Erin: yeah
[1:42 PM] Erin: I get what you're trying to do, I'm going to see if it actually matches up
[1:44 PM] Erin: that part is probably unrankable unless there's newer rules unfortunately, I know what you're trying to do, and I think it makes sense, but it's not allowed because there has been no mapsets like this that are ranked(edited)
[1:44 PM] _A: can you point to which rule
[1:44 PM] Erin: you can somewhat chalk it up to accentuation
[1:44 PM] Erin: "every note must correspond to a sound"
[1:44 PM] _A: my god
[1:45 PM] _A: but there is a sound
[1:45 PM] _A: i don't get it
[1:45 PM] Erin: the sound must be on that specific moment(edited)
[1:46 PM] _A: it is?
[1:46 PM] Erin: that's the crux of it
[1:46 PM] Erin: i can't hear it
[1:46 PM] _A: well i can
[1:46 PM] _A: so what now
[1:47 PM] Erin: are you layering the bell?
[1:47 PM] _A: where
[1:47 PM] Erin: 41s or so
[1:48 PM] _A: yea
[1:48 PM] Erin: alright, there's a sound there
[1:48 PM] Erin: you're almost layering it strictly
[1:48 PM] Erin: just have to shift them a tiny bit
[1:48 PM] Erin: but it's the same distance essentially
[1:52 PM] Erin: 40.837 - move this down a 1/8
40.955 - move this down a 1/8
[1:53 PM] _A: oh if you want to do this then parts like 01:24:816 - are fucked essentially
[1:53 PM] _A: honestly if you don't want to then you don't have to go through this
[1:54 PM] Erin: >> [1:53 PM] _A: oh if you want to do this then parts like 01:24:816 - are fucked essentially
how?(edited)
[1:54 PM] Erin: there's nothing related there
[1:54 PM] _A: listen to them closely
[1:54 PM] _A: they're off
[1:54 PM] _A: an didn't snap them exactly to 1/4s
[1:55 PM] Erin: a 1/6 sounds right to me?
[1:55 PM] _A: 00:40:837 - i don't think this would be on a 1/8? circumstantially all the vocals have started on a white tick
00:40:942 - around here however it's 1/3 woops
[1:56 PM] _A: it sounds right on 1/4 too so yeah i don't even know man
[1:56 PM] Erin: i'm using a waveform + slowed down music without artefacts
[1:57 PM] Erin: the only thing other than that is the chorus
[1:57 PM] Erin: the 332/223 thing(edited)
[1:58 PM] Erin: the rest is standard percussion-based layering
[1:58 PM] Erin: there isn't a 1/4, it's just 1/2s
[1:58 PM] Erin: you can place a LN on the second 1/2
[1:58 PM] _A: oh ya i did that
[1:59 PM] _A: alright makes more sense
[2:01 PM] _A: https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/discord/200566180233084928-392193856524779520-unknown.png?width=344&height=471
[2:00 PM] Erin: what
[2:00 PM] Erin: there's a clear 1/4 violin rhythm there
[2:01 PM] Erin: was pointing out 01:24:895 -
[2:01 PM] _A: tell me earlier then
[2:01 PM] Erin: i couldn't tell
[2:02 PM] Erin: editor makes it near-impossible for me because it's in downscroll
[2:02 PM] _A: donez
[2:02 PM] Erin: + a lack of colours
[2:02 PM] _A: yeah that's fine
[2:03 PM] Erin: 01:35:183 - use LNs here?(edited)
[2:03 PM] Erin: since you've used it for similar sounds before
[2:03 PM] Erin: 01:49:319 - different bass kick, use a double here
[2:05 PM] _A: muh emphaseize
[2:05 PM] Erin: my point is to emphasise it in a different way
[2:05 PM] _A: ik
[2:06 PM] _A: i don't like the LN thing above but sigh
[2:06 PM] _A: done it anyway
[2:06 PM] Erin: it repeats a lot so you have to keep track of that
[2:06 PM] _A: i didn't want it to be LN because the section was predominantly streams and
[2:07 PM] _A: yeah whatever
[2:07 PM] _A: it's not a big deal
[2:07 PM] Erin: there's one more section but it's more of a layering thing
[2:08 PM] Erin: 03:43:193 - should be a single, since it's the same bass kick as the bass kick before it
[2:08 PM] Erin: repeats throughout this section
[2:10 PM] _A: can this be disparate from the first portion because this portion talks about just chords
[2:10 PM] _A: idk i'm
[2:10 PM] _A: too tired to explain myself
[2:10 PM] Erin: you can, but I don't see much of a reason to make an exception for that
[2:11 PM] _A: because it's just chording here
[2:11 PM] Erin: unless you reduced density to accommodate for playability/musical relevance
[2:11 PM] Erin: thought so
[2:11 PM] Erin: I don't agree with it, but that's not a concern because it's typical layering(edited)
[2:13 PM] Erin: 04:01:413 - shift this to 2, creating a minijack breaks the double bass kick rule
[2:17 PM] _A: i just want to stop looking like some kind of stubborn old mule lith is painting me to be
[2:17 PM] _A: everything edited alright
[2:18 PM] _A: is that all
[2:18 PM] Erin: should be
Giving suggestions are completely valid, and he isn't particularly adamant towards changing something for the sake of consistency. I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be giving a feedback, especially since it's part of the rules, unless you sternly believe that he is not cooperative, which isn't true.
It wont be conducive to this map progressing anywhere and will just result in a couple of pages of nothing with a green name telling us to stop it at the end. I'm sure we all have much better things to do.
75-80% of the chart uses standard percussion-based layering. You wouldn't be committing that much time into changing the other 20-25% of the chart, especially since these concepts repeat throughout the chart.
Tactlessness of the veto post aside (which undoubtedly contributed to his hostility towards you in his posts; I would be impressed to see a new charter make a chart like ExaVid), your reason for veto'ing something stems from a narrow scope of technically correct charting; a scope that is far smaller than what the ranking criteria allows. Your obstinancy and lack of cooperation are hindering the progression of this chart more than the supposed rankability of this chart, in this case.
I agree that variation for the sake of it is intrinsically bad because it hurts musical relevance and structural consistency, but I don't think ExaVid is a strong offender of that principle.
