21:01 AlphaDude95: That was it
21:01 AlphaDude95: It's still wip
21:02 AlphaDude95: sorry about that
21:02 Smokeman: nah its fine i saw the drain time was way less then the length
21:02 AlphaDude95: It's one minute...
21:02 AlphaDude95: Till finish
21:03 AlphaDude95: 3/4 are complete
21:03 Smokeman: yee
21:03 Smokeman: looking at it in the editor so i can give you some thoughts
21:05 AlphaDude95: brb
21:05 Smokeman: k
21:06 Smokeman: i compiled some things we can go over 
21:08 Smokeman: tell me when you are back
21:10 AlphaDude95: will do
21:10 Smokeman: you back :eyes: ?
21:30 AlphaDude95: back now
21:30 AlphaDude95: Sorry I kept you waiting :<
21:33 Smokeman: ok some things which seem to be detrimental 
21:34 Smokeman: you need to pay closer attention to the song and work on pattering
21:34 Smokeman: and use a bit more of the playfield
21:34 AlphaDude95: that's me you know
21:34 Smokeman: that is indeed you xD
21:34 AlphaDude95: I actually had a lot of ppl say it on my previous map
21:34 Smokeman: but let me elaborate
21:34 AlphaDude95: "Use more of the playfield"
21:35 Smokeman: those are words with barely any meaning atm :)
21:35 Smokeman: oh about that
21:35 Smokeman: i noticed that while playing
21:35 AlphaDude95: Is the map bad, or okay?
21:35 Smokeman: its okay-ish tho you would need to work A LOT to get it ranked 
21:35 Smokeman: but let me elaborate
21:36 Smokeman: i really like the first section till 00:26:913 - 
21:36 AlphaDude95: I am ready to work hard
21:36 AlphaDude95: We can do this >:)
21:36 Smokeman: the bumpy sliders represent the sounds pretty well
21:37 AlphaDude95: Okay, good
21:37 AlphaDude95: At least I got something right then
21:38 Smokeman: when i said "paying closer attention to the song" i meant things like these 00:30:879 (4,5,6,7,8) - 
21:39 Smokeman: 00:31:396 (6,7) - this one is kinda wierd since 00:31:396 (6) - is mapped on nothing :s
21:39 AlphaDude95: Yeah, but pishi...
21:39 Smokeman: notice how you mapped the same thing later on 00:32:431 (1,2,3,4) - 
21:39 AlphaDude95: Yes let's just defend myself with pishi
21:39 AlphaDude95: It's my style kappa
21:40 Smokeman: idunnno no pishi, i know this map alone >:(
21:40 Smokeman: when i played the map like a few minutes ago
21:40 AlphaDude95: The reason is irregular rhythm and the fact that mapping on blue ticks isn't a good idea
21:40 AlphaDude95: So a filler rhythm is used
21:40 Smokeman: i did missread this cause it felt really odd
21:40 Smokeman: mapping on blue ticks is like the coolest thing ever when its supported by the song
21:41 AlphaDude95: Any idea then?
21:41 Smokeman: 00:32:431 (1,2,3,4) - this plays a lot better
21:41 Smokeman: the idea would be this 00:32:431 (1,2,3,4) -  :)
21:41 AlphaDude95: These are different sounds though, but it could work
21:42 Smokeman: yea
21:42 Smokeman: 00:31:482 (5) - there is this gimmick in the music itself
21:42 Smokeman: like
21:42 Smokeman: the song isnt repetitive and gives you a chance to change things up on its own \o/
21:43 AlphaDude95: I actually tried for variety
21:43 AlphaDude95: So don't you dare say it's the same thing :D
21:43 Smokeman: yea but you need to very careful with that
21:43 Smokeman: you can quickly create confusion
21:44 AlphaDude95: I wouldn't normally disagree but in one of pishifat's videos he says that mapping on blue ticks like this is unrankable
21:44 AlphaDude95: And would be very confusing to read
21:44 AlphaDude95: Even tho it's a slider
21:44 Smokeman: can you link me that video loool
21:44 Smokeman: i havent watched all of them myself but i am pretty sure he didnt use it that broadly
21:45 AlphaDude95: Okay okay gimme a sec
21:45 Smokeman: i mean mapping on 1/4 notes is completly fine 
21:46 Smokeman: my next concern, as i mentioned, would be pattering. But this can only be adressed when the first problem about representation is satisfied
21:46 AlphaDude95: Lemme find that part specifically
21:46 Smokeman: sure
21:48 AlphaDude95: https://youtu.be/c7jYwSVjiSo?t=1m5s
21:48 Smokeman: i had my guesses it was going to be this vid
21:49 AlphaDude95: Well, it is named irregular rhythm, so
21:49 AlphaDude95: yeah
21:49 Smokeman: the thing is we have a different context here
21:49 Smokeman: its unexpected as he said, because the player played only 1/2 rythms till that point
21:49 Smokeman: infact i encourage you to go look at all the other versions that have been ranked of the same song
21:50 Smokeman: you gonna find some pretty interesting ways ppl have come up with mapping that part
21:50 Smokeman: but for us, with this song and map
21:50 AlphaDude95: Okay, but this one is very specific
21:50 Smokeman: its completely fine
21:50 Smokeman: because of how dense the rythm acctually is
21:51 AlphaDude95: Memtrix y u do this Q_Q
21:51 Smokeman: notice https://puu.sh/xa2d9/f5a61c3cf7.png
21:51 Smokeman: the long gaps that will exist regardless
21:51 Smokeman: its a pretty chill part
21:51 Smokeman: and because this is an insane diff
21:51 Smokeman: you can expect players to be able to read these rythms when they are so losely put into the song itself
21:52 Smokeman: i mean the note on 00:31:396 -  confused me more :s
21:52 AlphaDude95: Okay I adjusted it
21:53 AlphaDude95: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8844906
21:53 Smokeman: tho the difficulty with mapping this part relise relise on how to represent it visualy
21:53 Smokeman: in my eyes atleast
21:53 Smokeman: ya somethign like this would be fine
21:53 Smokeman: it barely puts any stress on the player
21:54 Smokeman: tho you have to think about the objects coming before it and how they would interact with that positioning
21:54 AlphaDude95: okay okay
21:54 Smokeman: baisicly "pattering"
21:54 AlphaDude95: Gonna check other instances of this
21:54 Smokeman: check them later, and lets focus on broader things
21:55 AlphaDude95: Okay
21:55 AlphaDude95: Fixed all just now anyway :D :D
21:55 Smokeman: w8 a sec
21:56 Smokeman: are you mapping with hit animations on ?
21:56 AlphaDude95: With hit animations?
21:56 AlphaDude95: lemme check
21:56 Smokeman: https://puu.sh/xa2uj/8b665434ae.png
21:56 Smokeman: your pic looked kinda wierd
21:56 AlphaDude95: Yes I am
21:56 Smokeman: DDDDDDDD:
21:57 Smokeman: i would STRONGLY advise you to map w/o them
21:57 AlphaDude95: Okay okay I get it I am bad
21:57 Smokeman: making maps with that thing on is kinda wierd
21:57 Smokeman: wierd in the bad way D:
21:57 AlphaDude95: Oh no it's this thing with the circles
21:57 AlphaDude95: I hate this so much
21:58 Smokeman: like you wont see how objects really interact visually w/o having these white circle thingies lingering on
21:58 Smokeman: its like animating a cartoon
21:58 Smokeman: you need to know the frames which came beforehand so you know how to make the next one
21:58 AlphaDude95: Um okay
21:58 AlphaDude95: Let's go on then
21:59 AlphaDude95: I disabled it just 4 you ;)
21:59 Smokeman: if you learned mapping with that thing on.. ho boi that would be something
22:00 AlphaDude95: Hm okay
22:00 AlphaDude95: *unimpressed*
22:00 Smokeman: i need to recollect for a second
22:00 Smokeman: cause talking about pattering is difficult
22:01 Smokeman: its something that will fix itself as you grow as a mapper
22:01 AlphaDude95: You do realise you're basically mentoring me overtime? :D
22:01 Smokeman: it fine lol
22:01 Smokeman: my mentee is suffering a lot more
22:02 AlphaDude95: I'd imagine so >:D
22:02 AlphaDude95: Also, suffering? What did you do to him? D: I'm calling the cops
22:02 Smokeman: let me ask you a question
22:02 Smokeman: What do you think pattering is ?
22:03 AlphaDude95: Patterning is
22:03 Smokeman: dont worry take your time
22:03 AlphaDude95: Mapping circles consecutively in a way they follow each other in some way
22:03 AlphaDude95: sliders as well of course
22:04 AlphaDude95: Oh boy that was the first thing that came to my mind
22:04 Smokeman: okay
22:04 AlphaDude95: could be formulated better
22:04 Smokeman: I ll define it like this:
22:05 Smokeman: The building blocks of any map
22:05 Smokeman: thinking of only circles and slider when thinking about a map is destructive
22:05 Smokeman: its how they all interact
22:06 AlphaDude95: Flow-wise?
22:06 Smokeman: everything
22:06 Smokeman: not only flow-wise
22:06 Smokeman: visually
22:06 Smokeman: intensity
22:06 Smokeman: aesthetics pretty much
22:06 Smokeman: and how they contrast eachother
22:07 Smokeman: it has a lot to do with understanding the structure of the song and trying to map somethign to it
22:07 Smokeman: because music works in blocks like patterns aswell
22:07 AlphaDude95: Yes, it does
22:07 AlphaDude95: So tell me
22:08 AlphaDude95: What do you think is my weakest point and my strongest point in mapping?
22:08 AlphaDude95: Knowing that would help me get better faster
22:09 Smokeman: your weakest point is pattering and aesthetics(the faster parts later on show this). Strongest relativly speaking is rythmical choice although this suffers when the patterns struggly
22:09 Smokeman: struggle
22:10 AlphaDude95: What about flow then?
22:11 Smokeman: flow is fine but very subjective
22:11 Smokeman: but here is some advanced thinking
22:11 Smokeman: about using the playfield to its fullest potential
22:13 Smokeman: 01:11:051 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - 
22:13 Smokeman: about this
22:13 Smokeman: and more about how these interact 01:11:741 (5,6,7,1) - 
22:14 Smokeman: the position of 01:12:086 (7) -  is the main problem
22:14 Smokeman: you see when the player is going to go and hit that 7
22:14 Smokeman: he is going to return to the same spot he came from
22:15 Smokeman: this doesnt utilise the playfield a lot :(
22:15 AlphaDude95: What do you mean then?
22:16 Smokeman: am bad at irc sorry D: need some time find the correct way to say what i am thinking
22:16 Smokeman: this is a very intricate problem
22:16 Smokeman: so we need to be very specific !
22:17 AlphaDude95: CIRCLES CIRCLES CIRCLES
22:17 Smokeman: so what i am trying to get at is, that using the playfield more can create advantages in pattering and emphasis
22:17 Smokeman: when you return to the same spot you came from it is a a recursive pattern
22:17 Smokeman: thus some sort of recursion is implied
22:17 Smokeman: in the song i dont hear nor feel any sort of recursion
22:18 Smokeman: thus i would refrain from using a recursive pattern
22:18 Smokeman: this was my reasong why 
22:18 Smokeman: now what is my idea:
22:18 AlphaDude95: I haven't thought that deeply about the song
22:19 AlphaDude95: I don't think players are like "Oh here comes a recursion time to do back and forths" :D :D
22:19 Smokeman: you move 01:12:086 (7) - over https://puu.sh/xa3Bq/e7e1a7d74b.png
22:20 Smokeman: you subconciously create that feeling
22:20 AlphaDude95: I like it, but...
22:21 Smokeman: if you'd allow me to spend some time
22:21 Smokeman: and
22:21 Smokeman: like
22:21 Smokeman: do a cooler pattern
22:21 Smokeman: as an example
22:21 AlphaDude95: The slider's body would be emphasised in this case even though there is no indication music wise
22:21 Smokeman: the problem is that the whole pattern is mapped in a curve
22:21 AlphaDude95: And the spacing has to be higher than 5-6 because note importance and stuff
22:22 AlphaDude95: louder stuff = important
22:22 Smokeman: from 1 to 6 follow an arc
22:22 Smokeman: you can emphasise with more ways than spacing boi ;)
22:23 AlphaDude95: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8845174
22:23 AlphaDude95: This?
22:23 Smokeman: ya could do this lol
22:23 AlphaDude95: Also yeah I can but spacing can be used consistently throughout intense sections
22:23 Smokeman: i just moved it a bit to indicat the important change in space
22:25 Smokeman: sec am doing the thing
22:25 AlphaDude95: okay
22:27 Smokeman: :dab: 
22:27 Smokeman: w8
22:27 Smokeman: no
22:27 Smokeman: https://puu.sh/xa3ZS/258e552118.png
22:27 Smokeman: there we go
22:27 Smokeman: see how everything is ordered around that middle note
22:27 Smokeman: that 2
22:28 AlphaDude95: Yeah, the no is accurate, this is a no dabbing zone
22:28 AlphaDude95: Please?
22:28 Smokeman: and after that you and after this pattern you could emphasise the next "hey" in the song like this https://puu.sh/xa45C/cb9ba2c5e4.jpg
22:29 Smokeman: i was doing a meme on discord while puush was updating the pic.. takes ages
22:29 Smokeman: D:
22:29 AlphaDude95: I don't like it, hmmm what do I do now? DD:
22:29 Smokeman: just a suggestion
22:29 AlphaDude95: 1-2 you hit off an intense section with minimalistic spacing
22:29 Smokeman: ya 
22:30 Smokeman: its passive
22:30 Smokeman: i could adjust it easialy
22:31 AlphaDude95: I am trying smth now
22:32 Smokeman: i am not mapping a lot of dnb so i dont have the experience to go more indepth
22:32 Smokeman: i would highly recommend you go and look at other mapsets of similar songs
22:32 Smokeman: get some ideas
22:32 Smokeman: get inspired :o
22:32 AlphaDude95: I've looked at secretpipe maps
22:33 AlphaDude95: they repeat a lot and I wanted to make something
22:33 AlphaDude95: Something exciting and new to play
22:33 Smokeman: ya
22:33 Smokeman: they repeat cause dnb repeats all the time - _     -
22:34 AlphaDude95: But, there is some variation to consider
22:34 AlphaDude95: Look at maps like skystar's colorful
22:35 Smokeman: y
22:35 *AlphaDude95 is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/722224 Sawai Miku - Colorful. (Asterisk DnB Remix)]
22:35 Smokeman: i kno :o
22:35 AlphaDude95: Look at the variation in the map despite repeative rhythm
22:35 Smokeman:  i want you to look at how he orders his objects
22:35 Smokeman: his visual spacing
22:35 Smokeman: and more importantly
22:36 Smokeman: try to recreate them
22:36 Smokeman: how did he even do them with the editor
22:36 Smokeman: like
22:36 Smokeman: lit
22:36 Smokeman: how did he do the patterns he did on a very ground level
22:38 AlphaDude95: I like some of the ideas
22:38 AlphaDude95: I don't like some
22:39 AlphaDude95: And to be honest I don't really understand all that I'm doing wrong
22:40 Smokeman: there cant be anything wrong
22:40 Smokeman: inherently speaking
22:41 Smokeman: tho there are a ton of things to consider
22:41 Smokeman: like The qualities of sounds rather than just the intensities when it comes to managing movement in osu mapping
22:42 Smokeman: tbh
22:42 Smokeman: this skystar map has a lot more visual elements at play 
22:43 Smokeman: which is why this map looks and feels so cool
22:43 Smokeman: the thing is you should try to map more
22:43 Smokeman: and experiemnt more
22:43 Smokeman: get peopl to play your stuff
22:44 Smokeman: players who sight read your maps can be a good first guid to get better at mapping
22:44 Smokeman: even if they might not get what you are doing
22:45 Smokeman: but in the end these are going to be played (unless some really wierd stuff)
22:45 Smokeman: its not about what you do wrong, as i said this is technicly impossible, but there are things you can do better. 
22:45 AlphaDude95: Well this does have some experimental patterns
22:45 Smokeman: I learned mapped by self-studying
22:45 Smokeman: mapping*
22:46 Smokeman: yes but its still very simple tbh
22:46 Smokeman: which adds TONS to its feel
22:46 Smokeman: its simplicity is what makes this one so great because it fits with the serenity the song is emitting
22:47 Smokeman: i hope i could be of some help to get you into the right direction with your mapping
22:48 AlphaDude95: But the patterns vary ever-so-slightly to make some parts stand out from other within the song
22:48 AlphaDude95: and yeah I think you helped
22:49 AlphaDude95: Would be cool to have a mentor but I am not the chosen one ._.
22:49 Smokeman: gonna savelog and post this as an irc mod