FELT - In my room

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Topic Starter
ylvy
looks like UC finished his response first but

Sinnoh wrote:

Not even going to bother with subjective issues

General
  1. Having only one hitsound every two measures doesn't provide enough feedback. Even with adding new ones after Mir, it's still not enough.
    Your current hitsound pattern is only following highlights on small sounds. The issue is that these sounds are really infrequent and have little indication of the beat or rhythm of the song. This issue is most noticeable on hard where rhythm density is high, but isn't dense enough to support some of the hitsounds used on insane. You can reference one of the many other ranked sets for this song to get an idea of what hitsound patterns could be added. "Your current hitsound pattern is only following highlights on small sounds." that is exactly what the song does, though. there are no important enough points of emphasis between these special sounds, and im not going to add random hitsounds to places where they are not deserved. all objects have their sampleset hitsounds in the first place. these have sounds upon clicking and so provide feedback. i do not see why feedback is the problem here.
  2. Why are all the difficulty settings at random numbers? There's really no point to it, and only makes it harder to judge the difficulty of a map. Simplify your settings so that they're easy enough to understand at a glance. they are not random. simplifying difficulty settings just restricts you from providing what's closest to the best experience you can in gameplay. i agree that it's more annoying to read, so i changed ones that were close to whole numbers and i thought would have minimal impact.
Easy
  1. The whole map is only made of sliders. Aiming and following many sliders is tiring for new players. large gaps are given between many of the sliders, which gives players enough recovery and preparation time. sliders are lenient in accuracy, which partially removes an element of difficulty. i think this is acceptable.
  2. 00:05:634 (2,3,1) - It's difficult for new players to follow sliders when their tail is closer to the previous object than the head. They still have trouble recognising the difference between heads and tails, which causes difficulty and confusion when trying to read distance snap. irc modded with spork lover, changed some stuff but not drastically. slidershapes are the same.
  3. 00:09:998 (1,2,1) - Distance snap is at 1.4x, don't break distance snap on easy, and don't go over 1.2x saying why would be nice. guidelines are not rules
  4. 00:11:452 (2,1) - Don't overlap slider heads with other objects, they can cause reading issues irc modded with spork lover and changed it to a different softerfeeling arrange. it doesnt overlap anymore.
  5. 00:12:907 (1) - This slider shape is unreasonably complicated for an easy. New players are still trying to figure out how sliders work, don't make it more complicated for them with slider shapes like this. Change the slider body so it has a less sharp angle the sv is really low. whether they're somehow confused by the slider shape or not, they will not sliderbreak unless they decide to let go of the slider. the shape is more compact and like a pseudo-low sv, allowing for an easier transition into this section of the map.
  6. 00:12:907 (1,2) - Again with the first point, try and keep slider heads closer to the previous object than slider tails. New players will confuse the two. Applies for anywhere else this is.
Normal
  1. Distance snap is all over the place. Remove all new combos, then check distance snap in aimod again. It's a normal, stick to distance snap. ? its okay not to distance snap as long as its just as comprehensible and playable without distance snap. if you could point out specific sections where this would genuinely cause issues for a normal level player, then that would be a lot more helpful.
  2. Distance snap is at 2.0x during the second half, which is well beyond the guideline of 1.3x. It might be fine playability wise, but the contrast between spacing and slider velocity is unreasonable. It will confuse new players because distance time is entirely based on the relationship between SV and spacing. Raise your slider velocity and lower your spacing, normal players are still learning distance snap. uhhhhhhhh the sliders throughout the whole diff, with exception of the long ones every hypermeasure are not designed to be properly followed. players will click and move on as it is the easiest and most comfortable way to play these. sv doesnt play a big role here, nerfing spacing would just result in a really underspaced diff and raising sv would just fuck up playability.
  3. 00:17:271 (1,2,3,4,1) - 00:23:089 (1,2,3,4,1) - 00:28:907 (1,2,3,4,1) - 00:34:725 (1,2,3,4,1) - Note density should consist of mostly 1/1 and occasional 1/2 rhythm. All of those sections have 1/2 rhythm go on for a whole measure. Regardless of whether it's passive or active rhythm, it's too hard for a normal player. Reduce note density to follow more 1/1 rhythms. the whole difficulty is designed around 1/2 rhythms. the difficulty gap between these full measure 1/2s and everything else is not high. all these sections also have a beat's timing gap before them to ease the player in and allow them to prepare. the player should not have very much issue with these unless they are having issues all of the rest of the map.
    in that case, they are not ready for the difficulty as a whole.


This set still needs a lot of work. I would also suggest that you have a read of osu's ranking criteria before getting more mods, as many basic issues here could have been prevented by reading it. Need to veto since I don't really trust UC renominating after it was bubbled with the issues above. Need to veto
what i originally said was kinda rude
Mir

Sinnoh wrote:

Not even going to bother with subjective issues

General
  1. Having only one hitsound every two measures doesn't provide enough feedback. Even with adding new ones after Mir, it's still not enough.
    Your current hitsound pattern is only following highlights on small sounds. The issue is that these sounds are really infrequent and have little indication of the beat or rhythm of the song. This issue is most noticeable on hard where rhythm density is high, but isn't dense enough to support some of the hitsounds used on insane. You can reference one of the many other ranked sets for this song to get an idea of what hitsound patterns could be added. Honestly what more can you do without killing the ambience of the song? The ranked versions use a lot of different hitsounds and it sort of puts undue emphasis on them than complimenting the song. I'm already satisfied with what was added, so I don't see an issue with this.
  2. Why are all the difficulty settings at random numbers? There's really no point to it, and only makes it harder to judge the difficulty of a map. Simplify your settings so that they're easy enough to understand at a glance. This is a subjective issue.
Easy
  1. The whole map is only made of sliders. Aiming and following many sliders is tiring for new players. Imo, it's not entirely bad since there's a lot of rhythm gaps to recover from playing those sliders. The guideline is mainly for constantly using sliders in a row like https://i.imgur.com/utrGvT5.png but current rhythm 00:04:180 (1,2,3) - or 00:15:816 (1,2,1,2) - definitely do not cause as much strain.
  2. 00:05:634 (2,3,1) - It's difficult for new players to follow sliders when their tail is closer to the previous object than the head. They still have trouble recognising the difference between heads and tails, which causes difficulty and confusion when trying to read distance snap. This simply isn't true, the only way a slider could cause that much confusion is if this were done: https://i.imgur.com/KO0IX1z.png or https://i.imgur.com/3FaVkyL.png since the reverse arrow could be mistaken for where to start the slider.
  3. 00:09:998 (1,2,1) - Distance snap is at 1.4x, don't break distance snap on easy, and don't go over 1.2x I assume this was fixed in the latest update.
  4. 00:11:452 (2,1) - Don't overlap slider heads with other objects, they can cause reading issues. Head and tail are both clearly visible by the time the previous slider is complete, I doubt this would be an issue at all.
  5. 00:12:907 (1) - This slider shape is unreasonably complicated for an easy. New players are still trying to figure out how sliders work, don't make it more complicated for them with slider shapes like this. Change the slider body so it has a less sharp angle. This is irrelevant, players can read that this has a small bump in it and the sliderbody is pretty visible for the duration. I wouldn't call this an issue either.
  6. 00:12:907 (1,2) - Again with the first point, try and keep slider heads closer to the previous object than slider tails. New players will confuse the two. Applies for anywhere else this is.
Normal
  1. Distance snap is all over the place. Remove all new combos, then check distance snap in aimod again. It's a normal, stick to distance snap. Since when? Normals never required DS to be 100% strict. https://i.imgur.com/ALaeGAB.png - from what I can see, the diff itself does use time-distance equality - not precise, but it is a thing. The second kiai is a little bit of a spike but there is an Easy below and Normal players should be able to read this. I would know, I did a similar thing before: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1445845
  2. Distance snap is at 2.0x during the second half, which is well beyond the guideline of 1.3x. It might be fine playability wise, but the contrast between spacing and slider velocity is unreasonable. It will confuse new players because distance time is entirely based on the relationship between SV and spacing. Raise your slider velocity and lower your spacing, normal players are still learning distance snap. To be honest,
    this doesn't even look that bad. I wouldn't call it unreasonable.
    What I would suggest is raising SV slightly, though. It does feel a little sluggish. (maybe 1.1-1.2x?)
  3. 00:17:271 (1,2,3,4,1) - 00:23:089 (1,2,3,4,1) - 00:28:907 (1,2,3,4,1) - 00:34:725 (1,2,3,4,1) - Note density should consist of mostly 1/1 and occasional 1/2 rhythm. All of those sections have 1/2 rhythm go on for a whole measure. Regardless of whether it's passive or active rhythm, it's too hard for a normal player. Reduce note density to follow more 1/1 rhythms. There's an easy below this so this point really confuses me. The density seems totally fine here. There are 1/1 gaps every so often sooo.. this seems fine. If you really wanted to lower density though,
    ylvy, try removing notes like 00:29:452 (2) - etc.

This set still needs a lot of work. I would also suggest that you have a read of osu's ranking criteria before getting more mods, as many basic issues here could have been prevented by reading it. Need to veto since I don't really trust UC renominating after it was bubbled with the issues above.
Idk, this is a little bit of a questionable veto. The diffs in themselves don't actually cause the problems you claim they do and guidelines are just that - guidelines. They don't have to be followed, and in this map I don't feel like adhering to the guidelines would make it better, it would just take away from the intent of the mapper and the inherent challenge through its uniqueness.

Imho it would definitely be worth reconsidering your points, Sinnoh. While these would normally considered problematic, this song is both lower than the bpm these guidelines were formed around, and more predictable than many tracks (which should aid reading on lower diffs since players get "into the groove" or whatever).

One thing tho on Easy:
00:07:089 (3,1) - should these be swapped since 00:04:180 (1) - is nc'd?

Might be better overall to nc every hypermeasure (4 big white ticks) since the density is so low. Up to you though, isn't that big of a deal but that one nc should probably be swapped.

If you decide to raise the SV of the normal slightly during the latter bit of the map I can probably rebubble this (since I intended to anyways).
Topic Starter
ylvy

Mir wrote:

One thing tho on Easy:
00:07:089 (3,1) - should these be swapped since 00:04:180 (1) - is nc'd? want 00:04:180 (1,2,3) to be grouped as its all part of one pattern which follows chime melody
Nao Tomori
mmm..
normal -
00:08:543 (4,5) - i think these ones are gonna be confusing. if you look at all the other patterns with 1/1 they use clearly different visual spacing to 1/2 but this pattern always uses the same visual spacing that is used for 1/2 later in the map. i feel like a lot of normal players would instinctively just play it as a 1/2 gap since it comes out of a slider end as well. if you watch some replays of actual normal level players then this is the kind of thing that they would definitely fuck up...
so basically i suggest https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/10167335 or something where it is much more clear through visual spacing.
00:17:271 (1) - i agree this one phrase is a bit weirdly dense since it has 6 1/2 gaps in a row and most of the other patterns have 4. combined with use of repeats and stuff it might be a bit challenging...
but its also the "climax" of the song and there's an easy and it's low bpm so it isnt a huge issue. deleting notes like 00:18:543 (4) - works well to resolve this.

easy-
00:07:089 (3,1,1) - this looks kinda bad! you can adjust the visual spacing so that it looks nicer! (even it out)

i do think changing some of the 2/1 sliders into circles would be more interesting.. but still, having sliders is more soothing or whatever and the song is pretty calm...

yea dunno why this was popped lol none of this is actually unrankable..?
Spork Lover
I did a similar suggestion in 00:07:089 (3,1) on the easy diff, where I talked about changing the slider on (3) to a different shape and switching NC, which I forgot the reply to xd I do agree that it's kinda unintuitive as it currently is xd
Topic Starter
ylvy

Spork Lover wrote:

I did a similar suggestion in 00:07:089 (3,1) on the easy diff, where I talked about changing the slider on (3) to a different shape and switching NC, which I forgot the reply to xd I do agree that it's kinda unintuitive as it currently is xd oops i think i didnt reply to that sorry but i want 00:04:180 (1,2,3) to be grouped as its all part of one pattern which follows the chime melody, and thats also why i want to keep the current slider shape the same
Mun
>not even going to bother with subjective issues

>"use constant DS in easy and normal" is a major highlighted point

i dont get it
Free Hong Kong
hm
Topic Starter
ylvy
every new email notification sends another wave of fear through me
kwk
why
Kibbleru
The hitsound is not a problem, the song is ambient as hell in the first place, placing too many hitsounds would ruin that

Don't look at DS as a number.. its just a guideline its is not necessary to perfectly follow DS to the dot, but obviously blatant jumps for an easy diff is not appropriate

for the normal diff, again ^ the distance thing
DS being above 2.0, dude look at how low the slider velocity is tho.
_handholding
UndeadCapulet is a friend of ylvy and its likely a non coincidence that after he gets BN this set was revived specifically so this could happen.
coco
but kisses it's not like the map has major unrankable issues that are being ignored

them being friends isnt really relevant


edit: fuck i just realized it was a xexxar meme
Monstrata
Before you guys jump on the Sinnoh anger train

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Time-distance equality should be used. Variations are acceptable if they are clearly different from spacing used for different rhythms. When hit objects are more than 1 beat apart and have relatively high spacing on the playfield, time-distance equality does not need to be as precise.

When distance snap is used, try to keep it between 0.8x and 1.3x. Values too much higher or lower may make the difference between slider velocity and spacing counterintuitive. A higher distance snap can be used to avoid overlapping, but the slider velocity should be increased if you find yourself doing this often.
These are the current guidelines for a Normal difficulty, and as you know, guidelines operate much like "rules" in the old RC but with the exception that you can break them with justification. So Sinnoh's concerns for the Normal's use of irregular DS and 2.00x spacing is definitely warranted. And no, it's not subjective, because according to the RC the Normal violates both. You can't deny that time-distance equality is thrown out the window, and you can't deny that 2.0x spacing is higher than the maximum of 1.3x.

So what is the next step? You just have to justify the use of these particular settings and your decision not to abide by the time-distance equality rule. You obviously have some reason, otherwise you wouldn't bother to use these settings anyways, right?

Adding on:

Btw why is Hard only OD 4.4 when Normal is OD 4? Also the AR for Normal is really high for 165 bpm lol. Also HP on Easy is pretty damn high lol.

Also, I can't be the only one who thinks there's a diff gap between the Easy and Normal right? Easy uses two times as many 2/1 rhythm as it does 1/1 rhythms. And Normal uses a lot of 1/2 chains, some that span nearly two measures:

not to mention the use of 2.00 DS which inherently makes the map harder.

Also come on, put some hitsounds on the jump patterns :(. We gotta stop tossing the "ambience" term around. If you really wanted to map the ambience, you wouldn't use all these single-tap rhythms. That seriously kills the atmosphere lol. Like if you want to focus on the ambience of the music, using those slow sliders is very nice, but pairing them with jumps and extended single-tap rhythm skews that feeling you get. Should have done something UC did with his brave shine map or something, where there are slow sliders with large jumps. That would have been a really cool concept here.

Okay good luck~
Topic Starter
ylvy
thanks for the constructive help and feedback and i'm sorry this turned into a pretty negative-spirited thing. i'll come back to this set with mod responses sometime later.
mindmaster107

cococolaco wrote:

but kisses it's not like the map has major unrankable issues that are being ignored

them being friends isnt really relevant


edit: fuck i just realized it was a xexxar meme
Please let this not become a thing.



In seriousness, ye guidelines have been treated like guidelines, due to the connotation from the previous RC.
I seriously think it should be changed into rules, and the current ones into laws to give off the proper seriousness they deserve.
(or something less dumb with the same point)

[Easy]
Object types feel random. I kinda see you trying more outlandish slidershaped for different sounds, but I find it hard to relate it to the song when so many are used in a 40 second map. Maybe choose fewer slider shapes.

Also unlike the normal diff, objects don't have a clear relationship between each other. I could consider taking the effort to rearrange objects so that they fit better together.
00:24:543 (1,2,1) - These objects are the most extreme example I could find. The slider shapes vary wildly in shapes, while the visual flow seems to be cut at every oppertunity. This I believe isn't intentional, seeing how your normal diff was mapped.
00:04:180 (1,2,3) - Object here feel coherent yes, but the sliders still feel separate, due to how slider's seem to cut each other off. Something like 00:02:725 (2,1) - works great.



00:04:180 (1,2) - Keep in mind the default skin has slider heads and tails which look kinda simular, and for a new player, they could misread this.

00:11:452 (2) - Object suddenly changed DS? This isn't a big deal, it just triggeres me and is such an easy fix I don't see why not.

[Normal]
00:04:725 (2,3) - Maybe line it up with the previous slider?

[Hard]
00:02:543 (4,1) - This pattern looks nice, but due to how sparringly you seem to organize objects like this, it feels out of place. Commit, or rid of the current instances of this (with less serious words :P).

00:12:180 (6,7) - I don't see why you "stacked" the sliders like this when everywhere else in the song you didn't. There isn't anything in the song which suggests anything out of the ordinary. Make it more in line with 00:07:090 (1,2) , or another pattern.

00:32:543 (1,2,3,4) - 00:35:452 (1,2,3,4) - I don't know how I feel about this pattern. The song does climax yes, but not to the degree I would make it this spaced. Consider this would have been mapped like 00:29:634 (1,2,3) just 3 seconds ago, it feels jarrring to suddenly switch. I love the idea, but a more gradual change of this "stack" into "stream" would feel better.
bloggle
MaridiuS
Drama in 30 sec low diffs :cry:

In the future if you guys see someone fuck up without the person not knowing they did, please do not pull shots at him and just discuss what was said. Stuff like "can't believe a bn wrote this" doesn't really benefit the discussion.

Sinnoh, saying stuff like "Not even going to bother with subjective issues" basically means you said the map is low quality. Without addressing those things you will just demotivate the mapper and not cause the map to improve, it is unnecessary.
Sinnoh
Seems like the dust settled, didn't post before because that only leads to further conflict, and nobody wants to see that.

First up, I'm sorry about the first line, I didn't intend to mean it that way. I was trying to say that I had other issues with the map, but I was only bringing up things that directly broke RC guidelines because I wanted to be to the point and short with the mod.

The only difference between rules and guidelines is that breaking rules is enough to have your map disqualified with no discussion. Guidelines are meant to be followed at all times, and should only be broken in exceptional circumstances where following the guideline would significantly hinder the quality of the map.
Considering the number of guidelines that were broken, it isn't unreasonable to assume that at least one point brought up would have to be changed. I vetoed because there is almost no reason to break guidelines for Easy/Normal, there isn't much room to be creative in a low diff because almost any unusual concept will throw new players off. Follow the guidelines and it will be fine.

I have no issue with this set being rebubbled by another nominator, if someone else thinks the set is fine then go ahead. I'm concerned because almost none of the issues I brought up were mentioned on the page before me. If it was rebubbled then any other similar issues would have been ignored again.

I don't really care about kudosu, but not being given kudosu after having multiple points of mine applied gives me the vibe that any opinions that you don't agree with any unwanted opinions. It is impossible to improve as a mapper if you don't want to take criticism.

Final word to anyone reading the thread, harassment is against osu's community guidelines. Please refrain from doing so in the future, as nothing comes from it except making the harasser look like an asshole. If you really care about what is happening on a thread, please contribute to the discussion rather than resorting to personal attacks.
Topic Starter
ylvy

Sinnoh wrote:

I don't really care about kudosu, but not being given kudosu after having multiple points of mine applied gives me the vibe that any opinions that you don't agree with any unwanted opinions. It is impossible to improve as a mapper if you don't want to take criticism.
eeeh sorry i forgot to give a bunch of people kudosu
i'm currently not interested in pushing this map forward so i'll leave all my responses for another time. if i come back, i'll probably remap the lower diffs.
thanks for the help!
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