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penoreri - Preserved Valkyria

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Fushimi Rio

Kisses wrote:

Rio
  1. 01:04:707 (2) - do you have to stack this underneath? It's really hard to read flows better, but I moved it a bit apart
  2. 01:12:752 - Why skip this piano sound? same with 01:13:025 . These sounds belong to the main paino melody of your rhythm there are two tracks of piano and I was just following the higher one

    edit: I think I modded this before so sorry if I repeated stuff. I can't remember what I said
Thanks for modding!

SPOILER
osu file format v14

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[Metadata]
Title:Preserved Valkyria
TitleUnicode:Preserved Valkyria
Artist:penoreri
ArtistUnicode:ぺのれり
Creator:Kroytz
Version:Rio's MAXIMUM
Source:SOUND VOLTEX III GRAVITY WARS
Tags:sdvx konami arcade championship kac song contest Renumi Akitoshi pkk Sharkie Zexous Kawashiro Fushimi Rio
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Zexous

Kisses wrote:

Zexous
  1. 00:28:598 (1) - One slider for all these sounds is a bit anticlimatic as well as hard to predict The sound is repeated in such a way that merits the repeat and I set a precedent for it in that section, moreover it's an odd number of beats so there's no even way to pattern that with more objects in a way I think will play nicely
  2. 01:07:707 (1) - What do you think about placing this where 01:06:889 (3) is? Won't move it to where you said but I do like the idea of moving it, adjusted the other patterns in that section accordingly as well
thanks
also fixed a section that mysteriously had whistles on every object and shouldn't have, maybe hs got copypasted from another diff or something idk

https://puu.sh/z9aKr/3d5af0cddc.osu
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Title:Preserved Valkyria
TitleUnicode:Preserved Valkyria
Artist:penoreri
ArtistUnicode:ãºã®ã‚Œã‚Š
Creator:Kroytz
Version:Zexous' INFINITE
Source:SOUND VOLTEX III GRAVITY WARS
Tags:sdvx konami arcade championship kac song contest Renumi Akitoshi pkk Sharkie Zexous Kawashiro Fushimi Rio
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200,302,84343,2,0,L|289:317,1,89.9999972534181,10|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
213,198,84616,2,0,L|124:183,1,89.9999972534181,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
15,339,84889,2,0,L|103:353,1,89.9999972534181,10|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
57,230,85161,6,0,P|48:151|139:100,1,179.999994506836,2|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
340,28,85571,2,0,B|256:60|256:60|172:28,1,179.999994506836,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
388,98,85980,1,10,0:0:0:0:
388,98,86116,2,0,P|461:144|455:230,1,179.999994506836,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
212,196,86525,2,0,B|260:207|300:188|300:188|338:169|388:183,1,179.999994506836,8|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
339,280,86934,2,0,L|323:371,2,89.9999972534181,2|10|2,0:0|0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
149,283,87343,5,6,0:0:0:0:
149,283,87480,1,2,0:0:0:0:
46,142,87616,1,10,0:0:0:0:
46,142,87752,1,2,0:0:0:0:
212,196,87889,1,2,0:0:0:0:
212,196,88025,1,2,0:0:0:0:
46,250,88161,1,10,0:0:0:0:
46,250,88298,1,2,0:0:0:0:
149,109,88434,6,0,P|195:87|249:91,1,89.9999972534181,6|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
397,138,88707,2,0,P|351:160|297:156,1,89.9999972534181,8|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
334,51,88980,1,2,0:0:0:0:
334,51,89116,1,0,0:0:0:0:
376,255,89252,1,10,0:0:0:0:
376,255,89388,1,0,0:0:0:0:
171,221,89525,6,0,P|108:228|48:341,1,179.999994506836,6|8,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
266,272,89934,2,0,L|248:168,1,89.9999972534181,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
162,42,90207,1,2,0:0:0:0:
162,42,90275,1,2,0:0:0:0:
162,42,90343,2,0,L|180:146,1,89.9999972534181,10|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
14,78,90616,5,6,0:0:0:0:
53,99,90684,1,2,0:0:0:0:
97,99,90752,1,2,0:0:0:0:
136,78,90820,1,2,0:0:0:0:
162,42,90889,1,6,0:0:0:0:
202,22,90957,1,2,0:0:0:0:
246,21,91025,1,2,0:0:0:0:
285,43,91093,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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448,115,91707,5,2,1:2:0:0:
474,166,91797,1,2,0:0:0:0:
451,220,91888,1,2,0:0:0:0:
396,237,91980,2,2,P|371:264|361:286,2,59.9999981689454,2|2|2,1:2|0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
431,335,92252,2,2,L|496:357,1,59.9999981689454,2|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
356,367,92434,5,2,0:0:0:0:
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246,291,92798,5,2,1:2:0:0:
197,256,92888,1,2,0:0:0:0:
145,280,92980,1,2,0:0:0:0:
96,311,93070,1,2,1:2:0:0:
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53,86,93343,5,2,1:2:0:0:
112,95,93433,1,2,0:0:0:0:
166,107,93524,1,2,0:0:0:0:
136,160,93615,1,2,1:2:0:0:
107,212,93707,2,2,L|70:138,1,59.9999981689454
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261,47,94571,6,0,L|295:15,2,44.999998626709,2|2|2,3:2|3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
319,109,94843,1,2,0:0:0:0:
388,50,94980,5,6,0:0:0:0:
408,89,95048,1,2,0:0:0:0:
407,134,95116,1,2,0:0:0:0:
385,172,95184,1,2,0:0:0:0:
348,196,95252,2,0,L|303:191,3,44.999998626709,2|2|2|2,0:0|0:0|0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
357,240,95525,5,2,0:0:0:0:
333,277,95593,1,2,0:0:0:0:
294,299,95661,1,2,0:0:0:0:
250,299,95729,1,2,0:0:0:0:
210,279,95797,2,0,L|187:226,3,44.999998626709,2|2|2|2,0:0|0:0|0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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271,0,96480,2,0,B|296:69|296:69|241:168,1,179.999994506836,4|2,3:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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211,64,96957,1,2,0:0:0:0:
211,64,97025,1,2,0:0:0:0:
41,57,97161,6,0,B|125:91|125:91|212:63,1,179.999994506836,2|2,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
472,223,97571,2,0,B|388:189|388:189|301:217,1,179.999994506836,6|2,3:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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257,141,98048,1,2,0:0:0:0:
257,141,98116,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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114,255,98798,2,0,L|77:281,7,44.999998626709,6|0|0|0|2|0|0|0,3:2|3:0|3:0|3:0|3:2|3:0|3:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
127,334,99343,2,0,L|120:378,7,44.999998626709,6|0|0|0|2|0|0|0,3:2|3:0|3:0|3:0|3:2|3:0|3:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
201,298,99889,1,6,3:2:0:0:
232,266,99957,1,0,3:0:0:0:
275,256,100025,1,0,3:0:0:0:
317,270,100093,1,0,3:0:0:0:
345,305,100161,1,2,3:2:0:0:
385,285,100229,1,0,3:0:0:0:
409,247,100297,1,0,3:0:0:0:
409,203,100365,1,0,3:0:0:0:
385,165,100433,5,6,0:0:0:0:
306,3,100707,1,10,0:0:0:0:
306,3,100843,2,0,P|292:45|293:81,1,75,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
292,165,101116,1,2,0:0:0:0:
292,165,101252,6,0,L|203:143,1,75,10|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
178,66,101525,2,0,P|145:91|130:127,1,75,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
181,274,101798,2,0,P|175:232|152:201,1,75,10|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
0,173,102071,6,0,P|38:189|76:184,1,75,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
46,99,102343,1,10,0:0:0:0:
46,99,102480,1,2,0:0:0:0:
69,275,102616,6,0,L|82:367,2,75,2|2|10,0:0|0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
181,274,103025,2,0,L|194:182,2,75,2|2|2,0:0|0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
292,281,103434,2,0,L|305:373,1,75,10|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
416,198,103707,5,2,0:0:0:0:
294,204,103843,1,2,0:0:0:0:
389,128,103980,1,10,0:0:0:0:
358,246,104116,1,2,0:0:0:0:
314,131,104252,2,0,P|322:92|345:66,1,75,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
358,246,104525,2,0,L|285:284,1,75,10|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
216,146,104798,6,0,L|245:62,1,75,6|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
178,8,105071,1,10,0:0:0:0:
178,8,105207,2,0,P|137:31|103:34,1,75,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
67,114,105480,1,2,0:0:0:0:
26,193,105616,6,0,L|-32:102,1,75,10|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
135,169,105889,2,0,L|77:260,1,75,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
68,337,106161,2,0,L|10:246,1,75,10|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
177,313,106434,2,0,L|119:404,2,75,2|2|10,0:0|0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
224,236,106843,1,2,0:0:0:0:
272,159,106980,6,0,P|307:162|351:186,1,75,6|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
399,248,107252,1,10,0:0:0:0:
399,248,107389,2,0,L|427:157,1,75,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
316,261,107661,1,2,0:0:0:0:
316,261,107798,2,0,L|344:352,1,75,10|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
421,176,108071,6,0,P|412:140|388:109,1,75,6|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
431,31,108343,2,0,P|395:20|356:26,1,75,6|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
270,1,108616,1,6,0:0:0:0:
266,37,108684,1,2,0:0:0:0:
277,73,108752,1,2,0:0:0:0:
303,100,108820,1,2,0:0:0:0:
338,113,108889,1,6,0:0:0:0:
313,84,108957,1,2,0:0:0:0:
279,69,109025,1,2,0:0:0:0:
242,70,109093,1,2,0:0:0:0:
208,85,109161,6,0,L|193:187,1,82.5000025177003,14|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
182,265,109434,1,10,3:2:0:0:
71,314,109571,2,0,L|86:212,1,82.5000025177003,2|8,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
97,134,109844,1,2,3:2:0:0:
182,265,109980,6,0,P|237:248|275:250,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
348,294,110252,1,10,3:2:0:0:
348,294,110389,2,0,L|377:204,1,82.5000025177003,2|8,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
464,245,110661,1,2,3:2:0:0:
506,334,110798,6,0,P|465:342|420:331,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
422,156,111071,2,0,P|463:148|508:159,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
377,52,111343,6,0,L|340:134,2,82.5000025177003,10|0|10,3:2|3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
472,78,111752,2,0,P|474:30|457:-9,1,82.5000025177003,2|8,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
377,52,112025,1,2,3:2:0:0:
279,37,112161,2,0,L|194:25,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
86,211,112434,5,10,3:2:0:0:
164,103,112571,1,2,3:2:0:0:
164,236,112707,1,8,3:2:0:0:
86,128,112843,1,2,3:2:0:0:
213,169,112980,2,0,L|296:195,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
86,211,113252,2,0,P|40:198|13:164,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
273,108,113525,6,0,L|356:134,1,82.5000025177003,14|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
419,205,113798,1,10,3:2:0:0:
448,110,113934,2,0,P|424:69|392:49,1,82.5000025177003,2|8,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
419,205,114207,1,2,3:2:0:0:
398,301,114343,6,0,P|445:300|478:283,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
419,205,114616,1,10,3:2:0:0:
346,139,114752,2,0,P|322:180|321:217,2,82.5000025177003,2|8|2,3:2|3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
314,296,115161,6,0,L|226:312,1,82.5000025177003,10|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
103,250,115434,2,0,L|191:234,1,82.5000025177003,14|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
55,177,115707,6,0,P|24:215|17:256,1,82.5000025177003,14|0,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
51,340,115980,1,10,3:2:0:0:
143,157,116116,2,0,L|84:90,1,82.5000025177003,6|10,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
103,250,116389,1,2,3:2:0:0:
200,87,116525,2,0,L|292:73,1,82.5000025177003,14|8,3:2|3:2,0:0:0:0:
281,74,116730,1,8,3:2:0:0:
281,74,116798,1,8,3:2:0:0:
352,242,116934,5,2,3:2:0:0:
242,149,117071,1,2,3:2:0:0:
376,101,117207,1,2,3:2:0:0:
270,226,117343,5,2,3:2:0:0:
295,86,117480,1,2,3:2:0:0:
404,178,117616,1,2,3:2:0:0:
379,318,117752,1,2,3:2:0:0:
242,366,117889,6,0,L|185:347,3,55.0000016784668,4|4|4|4,3:0|3:0|3:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
113,240,118343,2,0,L|85:250,2,27.5000008392334,4|4|6,3:0|3:0|3:2,0:0:0:0:
256,192,118502,12,0,122252,0:0:0:0:
Topic Starter
Kroytz
Kroytz
01:04:980 (1,2,3) - I feel like a stream would be a more climatic way to round off the section I'll disagree because I think the movement from the 1/3 sliders is more active than how a stream would play. Unless the stream is incredibly spaced but I'd rather have it this way, eases in better to the next section.
01:13:025 (1) - Wouldn't it be better to delete this circle? It's not part of the piano melody I suppose its not but its audible enough to me. When I deleted it, it felt too empty during this pause while faint pianos were going on, so.. I think this should be okay as I have it.
01:48:071 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1) - just my opinion but listening to the music i feel like these should be mapped as one continuous stream without the kicksliders Rhythmically they're all 1/4s maybe split between quarter beats but my reasoning for separating them like so is to further expand on the symmetry idea. one continuous stream wouldn't be able to achieve that. Also, using the method I did it's more "active" and more climactic for the final kiai (imo at least).

Applied all to Renumi

Everything is updated now :)
_handholding
Lowest diff
  1. 00:09:695 (6,7,8) - use 1.3 DS
  2. 00:10:663 (1) - rhythm suggestion, fits much the piano layer and the diff itself much better imho
  3. 00:50:252 (4) - NC
  4. 00:13:760 (1) - ok so this is the hardest part in the map because of the density. It would be nice to add in a few 1/1 breaks and just over simplification. For example at 00:15:308 (4,5,6) you could transform it to this https://i.imgur.com/MnxPzZE.png . Also you could delete circles which aren't 100% necessary to the rhythm such as 00:18:985 (2,4) etc, etc. basically the kiai uses constant 1/1 at 220 and here uses constant 1/2 at 155 bpm. I hope you can see what I'm getting at
  5. 00:56:798 (1) - ok for this section I really can't feel your following anything particular distinctive in the song. Perhaps follow the piano rhythm with some like this https://i.imgur.com/myDypRo.png . You don't have to worry about polarity and all that, when the rhythm follows the song naturally then it becomes pretty intuitive to play
Aki
01:23:798 (1) - Is there a special reason for this NC? If not then deleterino
[]Reply and I'll post later my reasoning for my upheaval of the veto
Topic Starter
Kroytz
00:09:695 (6,7,8) - use 1.3 DS Fixed
00:10:663 (1) - rhythm suggestion, fits much the piano layer and the diff itself much better imho Idk about the rhythm suggestion here? I think Renumi had a clear idea with the long slider being like a "finishing" part for this
00:50:252 (4) - NC Fixed
00:13:760 (1) - ok so this is the hardest part in the map because of the density. It would be nice to add in a few 1/1 breaks and just over simplification. For example at 00:15:308 (4,5,6) you could transform it to this https://i.imgur.com/MnxPzZE.png . Also you could delete circles which aren't 100% necessary to the rhythm such as 00:18:985 (2,4) etc, etc. basically the kiai uses constant 1/1 at 220 and here uses constant 1/2 at 155 bpm. I hope you can see what I'm getting at Yeah, deleted all the extra circles and rearranged some stuff.
00:56:798 (1) - ok for this section I really can't feel your following anything particular distinctive in the song. Perhaps follow the piano rhythm with some like this https://i.imgur.com/myDypRo.png . You don't have to worry about polarity and all that, when the rhythm follows the song naturally then it becomes pretty intuitive to play If it's any consolation there was a hitsounding error in this that I fixed xD I believe whats being followed is the sliders are hitting drums, that's about it
_handholding
Sorry i forgot to post my suggestion for 00:10:663 (1) https://i.imgur.com/yZkAzXk.png
Topic Starter
Kroytz
updated stuff that kisses already saw
_handholding
In regards to Mir's veto
I don't see the veto as being absolute objective, rather a slightly subjective view of him not seeing it fit the song. I don't believe the use of symmetry to be unfitting and unjust for such a song. Symmetry is just a style of mapping (just like hexigrid, blanketing etc) and the way the map uses elements under this style fits the song imho.

----------------------------------------------------------
1. Sounds of more intensity have increased spacing
example 01:36:207 (2,3,1) and 01:37:298 (2,3,1)

2. It has different object density in places where there are differences of the rhythm's intensity
01:30:616 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) and 00:45:502 (1,2,3,4,5)

3. There are contrastring patterns where the song changes significantly (or even minorly)
example 00:48:071 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) compared to 00:49:707 (1,2,1,2) - In this case the flow and structure of the 2 patterns are different

4. Patterns of similar structure where the music is similar
example 00:48:071 (1,2,3,1,2,3) compared to 00:48:889 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - In this case the flow and structure and the same

Another thing I will add on top of this is that the patterns that in are symmetry are of similar sounds in the song itself. For example 01:20:798 (1,2) and 01:22:980 (1,2,1,2) . Which highlights the fact that the use of symmetry was just a use of mapping style to go about to structure a few patterns here and there
-------------------------------------------------------------

I can imagine that this isn't hard to spot and some people would even be thinking "well duh", but this is part of the point. The map adheres to many principles of mapping such as spacing emphasis, rhythm density, contrast etc. Given all this I don't see the style for it to be mapped under to be considered a flaw.

One thing I also believe is that there is a target audience for this kind of map and they would be given much enjoyment from it. Deeming that there is an audience for this map and that there is quality to it, I believe it isn't inappropriate to push this forward pass the veto.

As I am overwriting the veto doormat should be free to qualify in 24 hrs ~
Left
Kroytz's highest difficulty is always the worst extra diff in his set without exception.

that meaningless symmetry, copypaste abuse but overly hard snakes and pacific jumps
sigh



*lemme leave one suggestion, how about showing specific rhythm with NC? this song contains so many rhythm snaps, itself quite heavy to depend on user's readability.
Nao Tomori
ouch

cant say i disagree on this map specifically though
_handholding
ouch indeed xd

I hope ppl will praise my cute avatar 😊😊😊
bmax

Left wrote:

that meaningless symmetry, copypaste abuse but overly hard snakes and pacific jumps
what the heck is a pacific jump
Kawashiro

Cocoa Hoto wrote:

what the heck is a pacific jump
"Kroytz spacing" lol
Left


sorry im so bad at english xddd
jeanbernard8865
kisses your avatar is cute
Nyxa
kisses your avatar is gay
AncuL
when a person is vetoing aren't they the only one able to overwrite the veto ?_?

i think this is the case in a map lith was vetoing
PoNo
I want learn how to pasific jump *-*
Mir
Neither Doormat nor Voli can renominate since a DQ vetoes both AFAIK.
fastmarkus

Left wrote:



sorry im so bad at english xddd

this was glorious
Euny

Left wrote:



sorry im so bad at english xddd
i think your english is the best 👍
AncuL

Euny wrote:

i think your english is the best 👍
he's memeing why are you replying it properly
Natsu

AncuL wrote:

Euny wrote:

i think your english is the best 👍
he's memeing why are you replying it properly
because she is memeing too?? ;)
_handholding
thumbs up emoji
MaridiuS
Greetings. I've been checking previous replies often, but I've probably missed something already discussed and rementioned it here, hopefully you don't mind.

[General]

Strongly consider moving the offset by about +20 on the 00:48:071 - since the beats seem to be happening in the map earlier than in the song. I've noticed like everywhere if i put it on 25% speed.

The bg has 5199 kb/s which is a lot, more than the audio lol. Dunno but transform it into jpg somehow, it will take a lot less space.

[Rio's Maximum]

  1. 01:32:798 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - This pattern is extreme compared to anything else in the kiai. The 1/3 spacing on 220 bpm is as big as 1/2 larger jumps later on like 01:53:661 (2,3,1,2) - these ones and + the movement is quite awkward since it forces 2 snaps with that short timing window. Thats like 165 bpm 1/4 or 330bpm 1/2 so you should know how extremely hard that is. In the kiai sections nothing comes close to being hard as that. I can offer 2 solutions, which is either reduce the spacing a lot like https://i.imgur.com/WZslPsq.jpg or soften up the angles like https://i.imgur.com/3JNSj08.jpg or https://i.imgur.com/VGKW6GO.jpg . Of course the same should be applied to the second stream jump too.
[Entrance to Valhalla]

I kinda stand by Mir for this, except I think you don't need to sacrifice the symmetry concept, you'll just need to put in a bit more effort and possibly limit your design so that the map will be more consistent in terms of spacing. So to put it out again, I think that your overall spacing is raised too much therefore musical parts that need emphasis lack it on comparison to others, while on the other hand, the forced symmetry made certain patterns inconsistent when it comes to difficulty and emphasis. So firstly I'd like to discuss the emphasis idea implemented about the overall spacing, while on the second part i'll discuss how i think you can make stuff more consistent while preserving the symmetry etc.

  1. 00:54:071 (1,2,1,2) - So in this section you gave larger emphasis to 00:48:889 (1) - these NCed notes that have this loud synth which other notes do not, but in the 1-2 ones, the (2) which doesn't have any important synth in this pattern particularly i initially linked is as emphasized as (1)? Why don't you keep that consistent https://i.imgur.com/ucfBFer.jpg with something like this. You will keep the symmetry idea while also make the (1)'s which sound stronger emphasized as you do often(dont mind the bg, i cant evaluate your map on bright bg xd).
  2. 00:55:707 (1,2,3,4) - Since this is a lot more intense with those loud af sounds I think you should make it harder and different than the previous patterning since its not the same? How about something like this https://i.imgur.com/jlMQC4w.jpg I don't see any good in blending in such different sounds with same kind of patterning, it deserves special emphasis tbh.
  3. 01:03:548 - Not related, but I think you should map this, its quite audible and i think that the stream should start on the red tick.
  4. 01:25:980 (1,2,2,3) - These are particularly overspaced, especially that slider which is not even a synth. https://i.imgur.com/r5wvgvq.jpg By reducing the spacing similar to the picture, 01:27:343 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1) - this pattern which truly sounds much stronger will get the emphasis it deserves. Currently their jumps are actually similar to the distance of the ones I was talking. I've read your reply on Mir's point but having actual mechanical impact with spacing as differentiation is felt much more strongly than simple placement. Also density is not really something that emphasizes this pattern because in the map your note density is pretty high so it won't truly stand out in comparison to the rest.
  5. 01:42:071 (1,2,1,2) - Identical concern as I've mentioned earlier to 1-2 patterning. The (2)'s are quite weaker than (1)'s yet they have similar or even higher emphasis in spacing (01:42:071 (1) - clicking on this you can see 2.7x previous and 3.6x next). By doing something like this https://i.imgur.com/l55fzcI.jpg you will make the emphasis on (1) which is a strong synth consistent to 01:42:616 (1,3,5) - for example where you give emphasis to synth, preserve the symmetrical structure, and keep overall intensity of the jumps high. This kind of suggestion goes to all 1-2 jumps in the section, your choice how you build them.
    Also regarding the 1-2, in this section imo they should be noticeably less emphasized than in 01:49:161 - this section where the sounds are the same but the intensity of the section scaled overall, which means that they should be scaled appropriately to the new similar, but more intense section.
  6. 01:52:980 (1,2,1,2) - Even though these sounds are intenser than 01:50:798 (1,2,1,2) - the large spacing difference won't compensate for the patterning. You should imo make this more emphasized than that in spacing at least. My previous suggestion of 1-2 patterning goes to here too also tbh.
Now regarding the symmetry individual emphasis inconsistencies:

  1. 00:50:116 (2,1) - The (1) which is the downbeat is less emphasized than 00:51:071 (1) - because of spacing. I know I know patterning etc, but look, there's no harm in making it emphasized by spacing too. An option I found to be quite ideal was making the previous pattern https://i.imgur.com/IFzei4I.jpg like this, making the circle on the left being far away from the (1) therefore making the jump as about large as 00:50:934 (3,1) -. You can do it in a similar way here https://i.imgur.com/Jz0hhZx.jpg . In this pattern consider bringing 00:52:434 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - closer to the middle to make it easier, I mean, 00:53:116 (3,1) - just look at this jump on this relatively calm section, it's just a regular beat but this is 4.30x compared to a downbeat 00:52:434 (1) - with a finish.
  2. 00:54:616 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - I believe you should put in a little more effort here to make (1)'s emphasized like you do usually, this is just a large inconsistency without any particular reason. Simply just copy paste the right triangle and invert it https://i.imgur.com/IQdKwqs.jpg idk, the angle compensates for the lack of spacing to the nced note.
  3. 01:49:844 (3,1) - This is one of the spots in which it will take you effort to arrange the patterns so that it gets spacing emphasis like most (1)'s do. https://i.imgur.com/blyyqCm.jpg idk?
I'm not against the symmetry concept but I think it needs fine tuning in several patterns, however most of the things I've mentioned are I think major, but with suggestions I offered I think we can reach a healthy compromise since i'm not against your main concept. Of course I'm open to what you have to say in defense, you can also fetch me up irc too for questions and such.
Mir
oi dont rip naxess off
MaridiuS

Mir wrote:

oi dont rip naxess off
Every one of my mods starts with "greetings, hi, hello, hello there, i greet you" greetings is in the cycle atm, not my fault naxess says it always ;p. Nvm i've become naxess unconsciously, i was stuck on the "greetings" cycle...

Also its kbs not kb/s xd
Topic Starter
Kroytz
MaridiuS
General: Strongly consider moving the offset by about +20 on the 00:48:071 - since the beats seem to be happening in the map earlier than in the song. I've noticed like everywhere if i put it on 25% speed. I cannot do this because this is the exact same mp3 used in the current two ranked mania sets.

The bg has 5199 kb/s which is a lot, more than the audio lol. Dunno but transform it into jpg somehow, it will take a lot less space.It's a bit unnecessary because the folder size is still reasonable. I like the really high quality BGs ;p

Entrance to Valhalla

I kinda stand by Mir for this, except I think you don't need to sacrifice the symmetry concept, you'll just need to put in a bit more effort and possibly limit your design so that the map will be more consistent in terms of spacing. So to put it out again, I think that your overall spacing is raised too much therefore musical parts that need emphasis lack it on comparison to others, while on the other hand, the forced symmetry made certain patterns inconsistent when it comes to difficulty and emphasis. So firstly I'd like to discuss the emphasis idea implemented about the overall spacing, while on the second part i'll discuss how i think you can make stuff more consistent while preserving the symmetry etc. As I said to Mir, the only reason this would be something of discussion is how you treat spacing versus emphasis. In the case for my beatmap, the difficulty threshold is intentionally raised and this song has very little room to improve difficulty outside of spacing, therefore, concrete patterns are used at the risk of having 'awkward playability' to achieve my concept of symmetry, which of course regards to my high spacing. The spacing emphasis we're so used to seeing is not optimally captured because it wasn't intended to be captured in such modern ways. You will have one pattern on one half, and then play another pattern on the other half. The transition from patterns can be argued for both sides, I chose a side that's not seen in modern era. In addition, this song is a KAC Contest Song Winner and was one of the most difficult charts in SDVX and I like to reflect the difficulty this song presented in SDVX but for osu. It's what I do with all my other Contest Song Winners (iLLness LiLin, Lachryma, Celestial stinger, etc).

00:54:071 (1,2,1,2) - So in this section you gave larger emphasis to 00:48:889 (1) - these NCed notes that have this loud synth which other notes do not, but in the 1-2 ones, the (2) which doesn't have any important synth in this pattern particularly i initially linked is as emphasized as (1)? Why don't you keep that consistent https://i.imgur.com/ucfBFer.jpg with something like this. You will keep the symmetry idea while also make the (1)'s which sound stronger emphasized as you do often(dont mind the bg, i cant evaluate your map on bright bg xd). You can look at the top right and see where the objective spacing is in terms of pixel relation. The thing you linked me at 54s has more spacing than what was linked at 48s, and there is a clear finish on the former which is why I have the larger spacing. The two triangles from before don't have anything interesting as they are composed in 1-2-3 but the latter is composed in 1-2 1-2 so, I only reflect that. Your suggestion for keeping symmetry seems okay too, reasonable suggestion. I dislike it because it interferes with the former triangles. I wanted the spacing to be fill in the upper half while keeping a design since I already had objects in the bottom half. It's something I like to do in all my maps.
00:55:707 (1,2,3,4) - Since this is a lot more intense with those loud af sounds I think you should make it harder and different than the previous patterning since its not the same? How about something like this https://i.imgur.com/jlMQC4w.jpg I don't see any good in blending in such different sounds with same kind of patterning, it deserves special emphasis tbh. I thought about something like this too, the reason I didn't like it is because of the visual aspect yet again. There are objects in the bottom, then objects near the top, so I wanted to finish the section with objects in the center while keeping to "some" sort of symmetry. The triangle makes sense to me because the distance spacing is larger in whole than the rest of my previous patterns. I used flow change here because of the finishes. Your suggestion is reasonable too, I prefer my way because it achieves more of my vision.
01:03:548 - Not related, but I think you should map this, its quite audible and i think that the stream should start on the red tick. You're right here, I added more to the stream.
01:25:980 (1,2,2,3) - These are particularly overspaced, especially that slider which is not even a synth. https://i.imgur.com/r5wvgvq.jpg By reducing the spacing similar to the picture, 01:27:343 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1) - this pattern which truly sounds much stronger will get the emphasis it deserves. Currently their jumps are actually similar to the distance of the ones I was talking. I've read your reply on Mir's point but having actual mechanical impact with spacing as differentiation is felt much more strongly than simple placement. Also density is not really something that emphasizes this pattern because in the map your note density is pretty high so it won't truly stand out in comparison to the rest. The repeating pattern is quite obviously distinguishable from the rest because it, repeats (and stacks)... The spacing on previous objects is at 2.60 while the spacing on the later repeating pattern goes in and out of 2.90 because it moves a bit up and down. I don't disagree that reducing spacing can help 'emphasize' the later pattern but the later pattern is already quite obvious in itself that it's different and the pattern itself is enough to be 'emphasizing' because of how different or impactful and especially how active it plays compared to the circles I placed before which was just more or less moving around the map, not so rigid with snapping and intense 1/2 clicking. I also can't agree with your suggestion because I find it a bit unnecessary to apply for the reasons I stated above. If anything, I think this is nitpicky so I stand neutral on it, leaning more towards disagree for my reasons.
01:42:071 (1,2,1,2) - Identical concern as I've mentioned earlier to 1-2 patterning. The (2)'s are quite weaker than (1)'s yet they have similar or even higher emphasis in spacing (01:42:071 (1) - clicking on this you can see 2.7x previous and 3.6x next). By doing something like this https://i.imgur.com/l55fzcI.jpg you will make the emphasis on (1) which is a strong synth consistent to 01:42:616 (1,3,5) - for example where you give emphasis to synth, preserve the symmetrical structure, and keep overall intensity of the jumps high. This kind of suggestion goes to all 1-2 jumps in the section, your choice how you build them.
Also regarding the 1-2, in this section imo they should be noticeably less emphasized than in 01:49:161 - this section where the sounds are the same but the intensity of the section scaled overall, which means that they should be scaled appropriately to the new similar, but more intense section. Your suggestion makes good sense here. I did try to work with this idea, but I couldn't find a way to keep my visual aesthetics this way because I try to avoid overlaps with previous existing objects and make use for further objects. I did however fix some of my gradual spacing idea and fixed some back and forth patterns to be consistent with my intentions. Had to adjust some directions but I think it's a little bit better now~
01:52:980 (1,2,1,2) - Even though these sounds are intenser than 01:50:798 (1,2,1,2) - the large spacing difference won't compensate for the patterning. You should imo make this more emphasized than that in spacing at least. My previous suggestion of 1-2 patterning goes to here too also tbh. I mean, you could look at it in two ways: the pitch is higher so make the spacing higher. or: the pitch is different so that pattern is treated differently. The spacing isn't the only thing to look at here because you should factor in how a player a plays this versus the back and forth stack from before. One is simpler than the other, one is less active than the other. The pitch rises and the gameplay is more 'exciting' whereas the previous has something that's flatter as it is with the music. What I like about my current patterns is that they can flow visually well into one another while keeping to my symmetrical idea. But the interpretation is quite open and I think it comes down to what you prefer more, many people will say different.

Now regarding the symmetry individual emphasis inconsistencies:

00:50:116 (2,1) - The (1) which is the downbeat is less emphasized than 00:51:071 (1) - because of spacing. I know I know patterning etc, but look, there's no harm in making it emphasized by spacing too. An option I found to be quite ideal was making the previous pattern https://i.imgur.com/IFzei4I.jpg like this, making the circle on the left being far away from the (1) therefore making the jump as about large as 00:50:934 (3,1) -. You can do it in a similar way here https://i.imgur.com/Jz0hhZx.jpg . In this pattern consider bringing 00:52:434 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - closer to the middle to make it easier, I mean, 00:53:116 (3,1) - just look at this jump on this relatively calm section, it's just a regular beat but this is 4.30x compared to a downbeat 00:52:434 (1) - with a finish. I'm glad you can understand my point of view. Your suggestion doesn't fit me will, and there are many ways to try and map this as shown in other difficulties. As I state before this map is conceptual so, modern mapping techniques will be quite loose and it's due to the symmetry. Because you can understand my reasoning, I don't want to expand too far in it. Gradually getting spaced is the idea while pertaining to symmetry and not everything can be as "optimally emphasized" as you wish because of symmetry. My idea with triangles and rotations etc.
00:54:616 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - I believe you should put in a little more effort here to make (1)'s emphasized like you do usually, this is just a large inconsistency without any particular reason. Simply just copy paste the right triangle and invert it https://i.imgur.com/IQdKwqs.jpg idk, the angle compensates for the lack of spacing to the nced note. Okay, I fixed this. I think I had a reasoning for playability but the inconsistency is much worse, so I did fixed the circles there.
01:49:844 (3,1) - This is one of the spots in which it will take you effort to arrange the patterns so that it gets spacing emphasis like most (1)'s do. https://i.imgur.com/blyyqCm.jpg idk? I do this sort of thing quite consistently as shown here 01:52:025 (3,1) - and 01:52:844 (3,1) - so,
it would be a bit jarring to fix one and not the others but they're all kept to being consistent with sharing the patterns together. The only (1)s that get obvious emphasis are the (1)s that go back and forth stack on each other. While your suggestion isn't bad, I don't see it being a huge necessity. There are a lot of ideas that work here don't get me wrong.


Thank you for your suggestion MaridiuS. Thank you for spending the time to write this all out and provide visual examples of your sentiments as it makes it easier for me to see what you mean. While I cannot agree to fix on a lot of what you've suggested, I hope my reasonings make sense to you. I only applied what I saw fitting and beneficial to my map. This took me a while to evaluate so please don't be offend if my response came off negative. :)

Fixed a missing hitsound on all diffs that aren't Zexous or Rio.
Waiting on Rio.
MaridiuS
From what we've talked on Discord I've come to a conclusion that the mapper refuses to make a compromise on some important parts of the map to better express the song because of some aesthetic hindrance on a micro scale. In my eyes parts like those 1-2 jumps I was talking about don't express the song really well so I don't believe a map priorotizing aesthetics over song expression is suitable for rank. The reply of Kroytz shows enough so any further comment is not really necessary therefore the veto is kept.
Topic Starter
Kroytz
Don't be misleading Maridius.

From what we've talked on discord, you failed to provide strong enough arguments and viable helpful alternatives that would improve the quality of my beatmap. We discussed my reasonings for how my patterns were designed and created, and we also discussed your reasonings for how things should be changed. Unfortunately, how you viewed your changes were in conflict with my vision and direction with the map and our discussion slowly derailed into a matter of mapping ideologies and philosophies, therefore, I refused to continue the discussion as we were getting further from actually trying to help my beatmap. I am open to compromise if the suggestions being presented are beneficial to my map - beneficial in the sense that it follows my vision and is an improvement to the current mapping. If a pattern that goes left/right in symmetry is correct to me, but a pattern that goes up/down in symmetry is more correct to you and you feel that it is a big deal to make a scene for when both ideas clearly work, then I'm sorry to say but you are lost. The fact that you can understand my reasoning but continue choosing to ignore them is incompetence.
MaridiuS

Kroytz wrote:

Don't be misleading Maridius.

From what we've talked on discord, you failed to provide strong enough arguments and viable helpful alternatives that would improve the quality of my beatmap. We discussed my reasonings for how my patterns were designed and created, and we also discussed your reasonings for how things should be changed. Unfortunately, how you viewed your changes were in conflict with my vision and direction with the map and our discussion slowly derailed into a matter of mapping ideologies and philosophies, therefore, I refused to continue the discussion as we were getting further from actually trying to help my beatmap. I am open to compromise if the suggestions being presented are beneficial to my map - beneficial in the sense that it follows my vision and is an improvement to the current mapping. If a pattern that goes left/right in symmetry is correct to me, but a pattern that goes up/down in symmetry is more correct to you and you feel that it is a big deal to make a scene for when both ideas clearly work, then I'm sorry to say but you are lost. The fact that you can understand my reasoning but continue choosing to ignore them is incompetence.
>Don't be misleading
>Proceeds to lie and bend the conversation to suit him

I didn't know you were this kind of guy Kroytz. Hey even in the chat we came to an agreement for one pattern but soon after you realized that other 1-2 stuff cannnot be made to suit your case by case aesthetics. Now, suddenly, I didn't present good enough suggestions/arguments? After fixing that pattern I offered you a second hand to other cases of the same sounds. For some reason you went back to the aesthetic arguments or your vision which I cannot really understand. The issue was 00:54:071 (1,2,1,2) check it out in the mod post and the chat evolved into https://i.imgur.com/lhofF0s.png + and devolved into something else soon after somehow.

Relating your statement I don't know why you lie that my suggestion was to go up/down just for the sake of it being my way rather than the arguments already presented in the mod and talked out multiple times in the conversation. Your arguments were like "aesthetics!" to defend the cross screen jumps on weak notes. If your reasoning is aesthetics then good job, you made a cool pattern not following the song. 01:42:071 (1,2,1,2) discussed here in the mod post.

The fact that you lie and take only what suits you out of context is so frustrating that I'm ending this here and not coming back because who knows what you may come up with next as this doesn't seem anymore like map discussion but you pulling shots at me with the "incompetence" "you're lost".

If you really seek drama do it on reddit or twitter or something not here.
Topic Starter
Kroytz
Maridius, the truth of the matter is that if your suggestions are not better alternatives than what is currently mapped, then it's not an improvement - which is what modding ultimately comes down to, improving maps.

Yes, your pattern makes sense.
Yes, my pattern makes sense.
For what reason is there for me to change to something that works equally well as mine? I said your suggestion is more viable - more viable than the suggestion you initially presented which was a far weaker alternative - not more viable than my current pattern that I should be inclined to change it. While it is in line with my direction, I cannot accept it because it is so unbelievably small and hardly worth my time to change to a pattern I deem is weaker than my current pattern. But apparently you think it's something of a bigger deal. I cannot imagine how something this small means so much to you as both patterns are equally viable and have their own reasons for being placed their ways.

When I say you did not present good enough suggestions/arguments, it's in response to your initial mod-post which I why there's a lot of deny deny deny. I accepted stuff I can agree with, and deny stuff I don't agree with. I explained why I denied. Then we eventually elaborated more on that, which ultimately led nowhere because you tunneled on this whole 'song representation' idea as if my interpretation is not representative of the song at all. Aesthetics play a big part of my diff because it was built solely around it; symmetry, shapes, repetitions, and utilizing a lot of editor space for the reason of having lots of aesthetic features simply because the song - to me - presents itself that way. You stated that a map which focuses on aesthetics will not benefit the song, but rather the map. Since when is this wrong? Don't force your ideology to me because I do not view mapping the same way you do. You are in no position to say you know what is most representative of a song more than someone else.Why do you feel persistent to claim my song expression is not expressive enough? I hear 1-2-3's, I envision triangles. I hear repetitions, I can imagine symmetry. Is this wrong Maridius? If you tell me that this is wrong to envision and present in a map, then I have no words for you. There is obviously a plethora of ways to map something, multitude different avenues for making symmetrical patterns, or patterns in general. I explained my reasonings to you for why I mapped things as they are. I am confident with my current mapping because your suggestions did not help benefit my vision. If anything, they're trying to benefit your vision and that is not how to make improvements on a beatmap.

I said from the beginning I didn't want to argue, I didn't want to cause harm or trouble. It's sad this is how things turned out, but so be it.
Fushimi Rio
changed the pattern
SPOILER
osu file format v14

[General]
AudioFilename: audio.mp3
AudioLeadIn: 0
PreviewTime: 82434
Countdown: 0
SampleSet: Soft
StackLeniency: 0.3
Mode: 0
LetterboxInBreaks: 0
WidescreenStoryboard: 0

[Editor]
Bookmarks: 19953,20727,29243,55980,56798,63752,64434,80730,90207,91707,94980,95252,96752,97161,97843,98252,108071,109161
DistanceSpacing: 0.65
BeatDivisor: 4
GridSize: 4
TimelineZoom: 2

[Metadata]
Title:Preserved Valkyria
TitleUnicode:Preserved Valkyria
Artist:penoreri
ArtistUnicode:ぺのれり
Creator:Kroytz
Version:Rio's MAXIMUM
Source:SOUND VOLTEX III GRAVITY WARS
Tags:sdvx konami arcade championship kac song contest Renumi Akitoshi pkk Sharkie Zexous Kawashiro Fushimi Rio
BeatmapID:1366188
BeatmapSetID:644642

[Difficulty]
HPDrainRate:6
CircleSize:3.8
OverallDifficulty:9.3
ApproachRate:9.6
SliderMultiplier:3.19999990463257
SliderTickRate:1

[Events]
//Background and Video events
0,0,"BG.png",0,0
//Break Periods
2,44863,46564
//Storyboard Layer 0 (Background)
//Storyboard Layer 1 (Fail)
//Storyboard Layer 2 (Pass)
//Storyboard Layer 3 (Foreground)
//Storyboard Sound Samples

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Akitoshi
Kawashiro

Akitoshi wrote:

tfw we read long english
hi-mei
calm down my boys

on a serious note, please dont kill a mapper in kroytz, ty
Topic Starter
Kroytz
Updated everything.
Ready to go again~
SnowNiNo_

Akitoshi wrote:

Cubby
THIS MAP IS GAY AND SO AM I
UndeadCapulet
lets get started shall we:
timing
yeah prob change that redline so its set to like 48080, current ranked sets dont seem to be accurate
(and then change 00:47:550 - so its set to 113 for proper beat aligningstuffs)

hitsounding
its like realllllllllllly softwhistlespammy, to the point of absurdity, you can really tone things down for a nicer playfeeling, like only whistling the nc'd objects in the 00:48:071 - section, only whistling the sliderheads in the 00:07:566 - section, stuff like that
would also like it if you didnt whistle entire streams but at least i can understand that choice more

top
00:30:889 - fix break extension
00:55:434 (1,2,1,2,3,4) - current arrange is making 00:55:434 (1,2,1) - feel like a grouping of 3 beats which obviously isn't what you're aiming for, try an arrange more like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/10217417
01:07:724 - dont think you should lower volume so much, the whole reason this is a slider like this is bc you're mapping this gracenote, takes away from that if the hitsound is so quiet

sharkie
00:28:469 (1,2,3,4) - really think you should rework this rhythming so 00:28:598 - is clickable since it's the first actual beat, would be much more naturalfeeling in play and follow the song much better
will make the Big Post™ soon
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