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Now I know this sounds stupid, but:

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Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
it's a shit job. most people (99.9% or something like that probably, you could calculate it exactly by taking staff+gmt and posing it against the rest of the playerbase) don't want to do it, or they'd be doing it already. you feel responsible for other people's enjoyment, and yet you're acutely aware that you essentially get to decide who participates and who doesn't, and doing that with a clear head in some circumstances is very difficult, and never fun.

i wont deny that there's more than a small portion of being in the right place at the right time as far as becoming a moderator is concerned, but the good news about that sort of stuff is if you're not blisteringly fucking stupid, you can generally see where the right place is, and figure out when the right time is. i saw a huge need for people skilled in discussing things and being proactive with issues 8 years ago when i started playing, so i got off my ass and started getting involved. easy as shit. if you're not doing this, you're not fit for the position.

call it sycophantry or w/e you like, but it's just being smart as far as i'm concerned.

it's pretty shitty to lowkey hint at the "cool, mostly german staff" as being a product of a certain someone's preference when in fact all of the people who are indeed the "cool, mostly german staff" work their fuckin asses off to make sure you dudes have content to play.

it's all the same with people, unfortunately. covet what you don't have, and pin what others do have on circumstances that are beyond their control to make yourself feel better about how empty your life is
roshan117
144 posts
Joined April 2016
roshan117
they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them


inb4 tae comments about how i "made OT super shitty, you dont deserve to be here" like she has before
Last edited by roshan117 , edited 2 times in total.
Aomi
1,993 posts
Joined August 2013
Aomi

roshan117 wrote:

they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them
apparently they didnt do a good enough job since youre still here
DJ Enetro
88 posts
Joined January 2017
Topic Starter
DJ Enetro
Please, let's try to get back on-topic here.

roshan117 wrote:

inb4 tae comments about how i "made OT super shitty, you dont deserve to be here" like he has before
I don't think (s)he should say that, imo it's 1v2m i guess...

roshan117 wrote:

they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them
you know what? ...ok. this is just pure bias against Flanster for locking my threads. but mod-bashing? why should that not be a thing? imo if mods don't like they can just ignore it. :kms:

I guess i'll respect mods (good ones of course) from now on.
Tae
1,070 posts
Joined June 2015
Tae

roshan117 wrote:

inb4 tae comments about how i "made OT super shitty, you dont deserve to be here" like she has before
Not quite. You've improved from how you used to be, so you've moved down the hitlist a considerable amount.
roshan117
144 posts
Joined April 2016
roshan117

Aomi wrote:

roshan117 wrote:

they take time out of their day to keep us all in line and they dont even get paid, why would you not have respect for them
apparently they didnt do a good enough job since youre still here
quit confoosin me wit te pronounz :(
DJ Enetro
88 posts
Joined January 2017
Topic Starter
DJ Enetro
roshan please keep this on-topic
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2
@b1rd: Saying that 75% wanting to moderate somehow proves that moderating is a good job is completely wrong.

Consider this;

- people might only be thinking that they want to moderate, but when they start moderating they quit pretty soon cause it wasn't what they thought it would be.

- people are drawn to the role as a moderator not for the works sake, but for the sake of the increased status that comes with being a mod.

- people might like power, but trust me that most people do not like work.

Conclusion:
Pertaining to mod-work, what people think they want seems to only be mildly correlated with what they actually want. The reasons being: Most people only have a desire for things that come with being a mod rather than a desire for actual mod work + wrong conceptions of what mod work is actually like (tedious, unpaid)
Last edited by Railey2 , edited 1 time in total.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
What I don't understand is why you're taking everything with so much salt, Eph. I said it already and I will say it again: I'm not disappointed or surprised at all by the outcome of the applications. My expectation from the app was that Pawsu gets in and if that wouldn't have happened I would have laughed about those apps really hard.
I'm generally happy with my situation (aside from the fact that I don't have enough time to spend on mapping to make satisfying progress without ditching a lot of my other activities in osu!).

Please notice that the hint on the cool german staff people who ARE doing a lot was merely pointing towards "the ratio of supply and demand for german GMTs is on a level that will make it much harder to get into GMT because you're not adding someone because you really need a moderator for that neglected language channel".
I know that most of them are listed as QAT and not bound to actually doing moderation work but I know for a fact that some of them DO it actively and also that #german is generally well monitored and it's easier to get someone for a critical case who can read the language and has the power to act
I don't get from where you got the interpretation that I am suspecting any kind of nation-favoritism in staff selection. Like, what the actual fuck. Read my posts again, this stupid assumption comes from you, not from me. I'm going to let it pass because I can see how certain people would drop such shitty hints and you probably got confronted with such people more than once but know that I'm not going to accept if you keep putting words into my mouth.

Last but not least, it should be noted (and even be obvious?) that I brought the example with banned BATs to portray the change of requirements over time (same context as the cool german people above). It was definitely not to cry about missed opportunities, what the fuck, Eph, how much bleach did you have to drink to only assume the worst things from people?
DJ Enetro
88 posts
Joined January 2017
Topic Starter
DJ Enetro
Time to silence myself for two weeks.
(Until Aug 2 11:49A HST)
Last edited by DJ Enetro , edited 1 time in total.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
the bitter draught of experience is far more potent than bleach unfortunately
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2

DJ Enetro wrote:

Time to silence myself for two weeks.
Maybe pose a question that doesn't have an "it depends"-answer next time? That would be a step in the right direction.

Is it ok to punch someone in the face? Bla bla bla



This thread could make for an interesting topic, but with an opening post like that you just set it up for disaster, as you can see it unfolding on the first page.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
I was about to make a funny comment on this but then I realised that it is too sad to make fun of.
Hang in, gull, the sun is shining for you too.
Aurani
762 posts
Joined January 2013
Aurani
This thread is now a thread about the Roman heating system - hypocaust.

Hypocausts were heating systems that distributed the heat from an underground fire throughout a space beneath the floor. The heat was absorbed by the floor and then radiated into the room above. The effect on thermal comfort must have been similar to that of a modern-day hot water or electricity-based radiant floor heating system. The Roman hypocaust was characterised by its under-floor flue passages, created by small pillars bearing the floor's paving slabs. Sometimes, the heat was also fed through cavities in the walls before escaping from the building, thereby warming up the walls, too.

The Romans were not the first to develop a heating system in which the heat from a fire was fed under the floor from one side of a room to the other. The Chinese kang and dikang, the Korean ondol and the Afghan tawakhaneh were based on similar principles and date back to even earlier times. What's more, the Romans probably learned the technology from the Greeks. Nevertheless, it was the Romans who developed the hypocaust into a more sophisticated heating system, especially in their public bath houses, which were built all across Europe and around the Mediterranean.



The picture above is the picture of a defective hypocaust, as it lacks a floor above to heat and as you can see, it also lacks proper walls.
This type of shoddy building is generally attributed to the Brits, who largely lived in feces and never figured out what a brain is used for.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Ephemeral wrote:

it's a shit job. most people (99.9% or something like that probably, you could calculate it exactly by taking staff+gmt and posing it against the rest of the playerbase) don't want to do it, or they'd be doing it already. you feel responsible for other people's enjoyment, and yet you're acutely aware that you essentially get to decide who participates and who doesn't, and doing that with a clear head in some circumstances is very difficult, and never fun.

i wont deny that there's more than a small portion of being in the right place at the right time as far as becoming a moderator is concerned, but the good news about that sort of stuff is if you're not blisteringly fucking stupid, you can generally see where the right place is, and figure out when the right time is. i saw a huge need for people skilled in discussing things and being proactive with issues 8 years ago when i started playing, so i got off my ass and started getting involved. easy as shit. if you're not doing this, you're not fit for the position.

call it sycophantry or w/e you like, but it's just being smart as far as i'm concerned.

it's pretty shitty to lowkey hint at the "cool, mostly german staff" as being a product of a certain someone's preference when in fact all of the people who are indeed the "cool, mostly german staff" work their fuckin asses off to make sure you dudes have content to play.

it's all the same with people, unfortunately. covet what you don't have, and pin what others do have on circumstances that are beyond their control to make yourself feel better about how empty your life is
Okay. I have no idea what you can say your first statement when everything else you have said contradicts that. You said that you denied 85% of people applying to be GMT. And that's only the people who applied, a lot of people wouldn't bother because they wouldn't think they had a chance. If you want to see how many people are willing to actually be a mod, ask a random person if they want to be, and I guarantee that a large percentage will say yes.

Is a mod responsible for other people's enjoyment? No. A mod is responsible for creating an environment where people can enjoy themselves without any unnecessary troubles affecting people's enjoyment. Such as spamming or harassment. And if we compare a forum to real life social situations: how many times do you need to get the police involved because someone is bothering you? Rarely ever. Of course you might respond that an anonymous forum doesn't have the same consequences for bad behaviour as real life, and that's true to an extent, but the fact remains that in general people don't stay where they're not wanted, and if they are wanted then there's no reason for a moderator to take action. It's self evident that a community self-regulates, and forceful intervention by a moderator is rarely necessary.

And why don't I respect mods? Isn't is obvious just by your conduct in this thread? As I have already mentioned, a mod's job is that of a servant, not as a ruler, but that's not how most mods act. Here you are, acting as if yourself and your buddies are God's gift to mankind. I have dealt with mods a lot, and the large majority have an elitist attitude; they're not interested in helping the users. They will go banning and silencing at a whim, yet actually getting help from one is like getting water out of a stone. As you have mentioned, the way to become a mod is not through virtue but through sycophancy. Drawing some parallels between mods and politicians, it's often said that politicians don't have any particular talent for ruling, but for keeping and holding office, and there is truth in that when it comes to mods as well.


Railey2 wrote:

@b1rd: Saying that 75% wanting to moderate somehow proves that moderating is a good job is completely wrong.

Consider this;

- people might only be thinking that they want to moderate, but when they start moderating they quit pretty soon cause it wasn't what they thought it would be.

- people are drawn to the role as a moderator not for the works sake, but for the sake of the increased status that comes with being a mod.

- people might like power, but trust me that most people do not like work.

Conclusion:
Pertaining to mod-work, what people think they want seems to only be mildly correlated with what they actually want. The reasons being: Most people only have a desire for things that come with being a mod rather than a desire for actual mod work + wrong conceptions of what mod work is actually like (tedious, unpaid)
And as I've already mentioned, being a mod isn't a whole lot of work. And it might be said that the increased status and pleasure from wielding authority is a lot more common a motivator than a genuine desire to better a community. It's also apparent that nepotism - not technically the right word but you know what I mean - is just as important - if not more - than merit. Because the people who decides whether someone is a mod or not aren't the people whom the mod servers, i.e. the userbase, but people above in the hierarchy who are actually in the same group as the mods. It's like cops deciding if other cops have abused their power. It's apparent form many real-world examples that that doesn't work out very well.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Sometimes I wonder why applied while knowing I am not active enough through osu! to even be considered. I didn't even make any community related events/things. I guess it's that try even if you don't think so mentality, but that also makes me wonder if I just wasted their time and shouldn't have bothered.
Last edited by abraker , edited 2 times in total.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd

Aurani wrote:

This thread is now a thread about the Roman heating system - hypocaust.
Was this a precursor to the holocaust - the German heating system?
Aurani
762 posts
Joined January 2013
Aurani
That's exactly why I like you, Bird.

It makes me wonder, though, what ARE the requirements for becoming a mod of this godforsaken place? I've only seen what vaguely reads as "only the best are selected", but best at what? Drinking piss out of a jar dangling from the tooth of a bear? Do you have to ask someone directly what the criteria are, or do you just apply and take a shot in the dark?
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Based on what made me be 100% sure that Pawsu would pass GMT apps:

Pawsu was #1 duplicate finder in feature requests but half of the found dupes never got moved
Pawsu is very helpful, frequently helping people in #help and Help
Pawsu is very active
Pawsu is nice, humble and actively trying to expand her knowledge

I mean she got added to the Support Team instead, but that was her own wish and it also fit the best based on her occupations.
The main thing that convinced me was really the activity, huge interests in helping users, big knowledge and the absolute role model behaviour in terms of language and interaction overall. Especially the last thing sets her apart from other active users that I personally consider as most valuable community members like Deimos and others.
She was already doing the job of a moderator better than most without being one.
Aurani
762 posts
Joined January 2013
Aurani
How do you explain other mods, then? I'm sure there are more than one who act like complete children (immaturity should be the number 1 red flag in apps), have absolutely disgraceful behaviour when it comes to helping others, etc.

The one good guy I can and will ALWAYS support is deadbeat. He's a shining beacon when it comes to being a rolemodel, as he possesses both kindness and knows how to hold a certain degree of authority at the same time, all while finding enough time to help others whenever he can.
I'm guessing that's why he's in such a high position.
roshan117
144 posts
Joined April 2016
roshan117
:P

Aurani wrote:

That's exactly why I like you, Bird.

It makes me wonder, though, what ARE the requirements for becoming a mod of this godforsaken place? I've only seen what vaguely reads as "only the best are selected", but best at what? Drinking piss out of a jar dangling from the tooth of a bear? Do you have to ask someone directly what the criteria are, or do you just apply and take a shot in the dark?
I actually asked Stefan about this one time (about how he became GMT), and he told me that you become GMT by various people in the community recommending that you become GMT
Meah
733 posts
Joined November 2014
Meah
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|_∧ ,
┻┳|･ω･)ﾁﾗｯ
┳┻|⊂ﾉ
┻┳|Ｊ
kai99
1,123 posts
Joined July 2013
kai99

Foxtrot wrote:

my point here is, everyone deserves respect on the same level. some mods deserve more respect depending on their experiences and history
🙏
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

roshan117 wrote:

and he told me that you become GMT by various people in the community recommending that you become GMT
You win osu! by getting the popular vote whether it's becoming GMT, ranking a map, or being a player everybody cares about.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2
B1rd, everything you said about "nepotism" and the like is completely irrelevant to what i wrote to call you out on your incorrect claim.

So I am going to say it again, please try staying on topic this time.



You say that 75% wanting to be mods proves that mod work isn't hard.
My counter argument was that many people only want to be mods for status and power, not because they like mod-work. Of the 75%, which is already an unrealistically high number, you can not expect everyone to like mod-work.

Mod work is easy in the sense that it doesn't require a shitload of expertise or an IQ of 140+ to be done successfully.

But it is indeed a "shit job" because it's just not that rewarding. Mod work is..
1) tedious (try reading through 10 pages of shit-threads every day to see if someone broke rules, try dealing with biased reports and PMs every day. Gets old really fast)
2) unpaid
3) Aggravating, when dealing with asshats. Many people aren't exactly grateful for what you do, so there is a lot of hostility to go around

This is why is not easy work to most people. You might like the side effects of being a mod, leading to a "oh yeah being a mod is totally sweet"-feeling, but the work itself? Nah.

But what am I trying to convince you for, right? Just take Eph's word for it. He clearly knows better than you.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
I'm going to clarify my points in my previous argument.

1) modding isn't necessarily tedious. It's not just that people may be drawn to the position for the authority, but one may like to stay in the position because they like to exercise authority over others. People who want to mod out of an altruistic desire to help their community are rarer than the first sort by nature of the fact that they don't have as strong an incentive to seek out moderating positions, since they don't desire to wield power for its own sake.

2) mods don't need to even do the job they're supposed to do because there is no pressure on them from the people whom they affect. No mod actually reads through dozens of pages to check if someone broke the rules. I have had many experiences with mods and they are very unwilling to help anyone else with problems. They're only accountable to the people above them, who have no incentive to make sure their subordinates are always doing a good job - unless they get really out of hand.
Aurani
762 posts
Joined January 2013
Aurani
I hope you're talking about this specific forum and not in general, Bird, as I definitely can't agree with your last line, if you're talking about mods in general.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2
B1rd this is all good but it isnt even tangentially related to your claim that people wanting to be mods somehow proves that mod work isn't shit work. In fact, 2) seems to be contrary to that claim.

Maybe stop shapeshifting your arguments until they become unrecognizeable? You went from "75% want to mod, therefore mod work is nice and enjoyable" to who knows what you want to say with the post above. I do have a lot to say about your post, but doing so would lead to an argument that never goes anywhere because i will be damned if you can just straight-forwardly reply to my actual criticism of your initial post.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
the package deal with b1rd is: antiestablishmentarianism and wildly vacillating opinions on worldview facilitated purely on baseless rapport or "obvious" observations

i thought everybody knew this already
Aurani
762 posts
Joined January 2013
Aurani
You ain't a saint either, mate.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
i don't pretend to be, that's the difference
johnmedina999
296 posts
Joined October 2016
johnmedina999
pls no fighting
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
but fights are important

some fucking ancient greek philosoph said something like "the war is the father of all things"
meaning that you don't get to move on without clashing in some way - every conflict is a possible breeding ground to change the world to something better
Last edited by Endaris , edited 1 time in total.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
i'll mess up your pots and pans so bad you'll never find a ladle again
Ryoid
250 posts
Joined May 2017
Ryoid
Hi! im new here and i genuinely have no idea thefuck is happening. will it get worser as I come here more often?
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Railey2

Ryoid wrote:

Hi! im new here and i genuinely have no idea thefuck is happening. will it get worser as I come here more often?
hhhhhhhhhhhhh
Serraionga
11,477 posts
Joined November 2014
Serraionga

Railey2 wrote:

hhhhhhhhhhhhh
a7a kos omak
Aurani
762 posts
Joined January 2013
Aurani

Ephemeral wrote:

i don't pretend to be, that's the difference
I don't think Bird is thinking of himself highly either. Sure, he's arrogant at times, but he can be reasoned with.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

Aurani wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i don't pretend to be, that's the difference
I don't think Bird is thinking of himself highly either. Sure, he's arrogant at times, but he can be reasoned with.
Sometimes.
Aurani
762 posts
Joined January 2013
Aurani
I really don't understand why so many people think Bird doesn't listen to reason. Every single time I discussed things with him, we came to a conclusion together and ended it there, just like it is with Railey.
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