I think you're under the assumption that it only matters in relation to other people or in competition with other people, which I'm not thinking about overall. They're irrelevant and in no way does their ability actually affect the way you play at all. If you ignore the fact that other people who don't necessarily matter exist, then you have enough time because you're only in competition with yourself.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

But you're seeming to imply that it's going to be impossible for you to do that no matter how long you take, which I think is frankly wrong.

Our bodies have different physical limits. There is a reason why only the ones who are blessed with good genetics can become body builders. Their physical limits are higher than everyone elses. This only counts if we assume noone takes roids.

Same goes for osu! we have different physical limits, be it streamspeed or stamina. On top of that, reaction time can't be improved, you either have a fast reaction time or you don't. This is why I claim talent matters and exists. Of course, I could pump a truckload of time and do the same shit as you, but if you have to invest less time and get better results it means you are more talented.

@b1rd I played the guitar for years, why am I not as good as Jimmy Hendrix :^)

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

I think you're under the assumption that it only matters in relation to other people or in competition with other people, which I'm not thinking about overall. They're irrelevant and in no way does their ability actually affect the way you play at all. If you ignore the fact that other people who don't necessarily matter exist, then you have enough time because you're only in competition with yourself.

If you're only going to care about the ability of yourself, then there's no point in being in a thread about talent, because talent is relative to others.

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Sure, I'm going to continue to improve myself and continue to derank into oblivion, but that's not what this thread is about. It's silly to think talent doesn't exist in this game.

I think it's silly to dwell on that fact and "accept your fate" or whatever. Anytime I see this it's just people wanting excuses for not being as good as whocares. It doesn't make any sense to debate whether or not talent exists because there's nothing anyone can do to affect talent itself.

NixXSkate wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Sure, I'm going to continue to improve myself and continue to derank into oblivion, but that's not what this thread is about. It's silly to think talent doesn't exist in this game.

It's silly to deny the fact that talent doesn't exist, but it's worse to give up because you know you don't have it. I get Yuudachi-kuns point, he is not even wrong, but talent matters, that's why you should only focus on yourself and don't compare yourself to others who are just doing better with less effort.

I think it's silly that someone with talent is talking about accepting fate to someone who's played this game for years.
Believe me, I want to prove myself wrong and be a top player, and I'll continue to practice this game as I always have until my life has too many other priorities.

NixXSkate wrote:

I think it's silly that someone with talent is talking about accepting fate to someone who's played this game for years.
Believe me, I want to prove myself wrong and be a top player, and I'll continue to practice this game as I always have until my life has too many other priorities.

If I had talent, I would be as fast as XII or have more accuracy like mithew - instead I had to play 240-300 bpm for 3-4 hours straight everyday for 5 months following a break from an 8th month period of play where all I did was play for fcs for 3 hours a day everyday without missing a single day.

That's why I believe talent is overestimated. I didn't even bother to get to fail a mendes DT fc at the ending stream until I decided to play the deceit/violation 8 times in a row the day prior. That was painful. In a sense, I'm just the result of your previous mention of "Abandoning everything else to only train one thing."

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

I think it's silly that someone with talent is talking about accepting fate to someone who's played this game for years.
Believe me, I want to prove myself wrong and be a top player, and I'll continue to practice this game as I always have until my life has too many other priorities.

If I had talent, I would be as fast as XII or have more accuracy like mithew - instead I had to play 240-300 bpm for 3-4 hours straight everyday for 5 months following a break from an 8th month period of play where all I did was play for fcs for 3 hours a day everyday without missing a single day.

That's why I believe talent is overestimated. I didn't even bother to get to fail a mendes DT fc at the ending stream until I decided to play the deceit/violation 8 times in a row the day prior. That was painful. In a sense, I'm just the result of your previous mention of "Abandoning everything else to only train one thing."

Yes, talent is relative. Even with all that practice, you improved way faster than I would, and you probably had a better starting position. You're probably top 20 in the world for speed/stamina, that's a pretty big deal for 5 months of practice, and it shows the power of putting in hard work with some existing talent. (I don't know how often XII or mithew practice, but again, talent doesn't have to be natural talent.) I'm not doubting at all you put in a great deal of hard work, just don't expect all intelligent players to have the same results with the same amount of practice, because there's a >90% chance the results wouldn't be as good as yours.
I practiced spinning back in the day like mad and I never became that notable at it.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

Pretty much this.
Noone knows if talent exists or not. There are hundreds of studies about genes vs environmental influences / practice and we will probably never be able to tell exactly if talent exists or not.

Even so, why would you talent to exist that badly? The concept of it promotes lazy attitudes and excuses as I mentioned before.
I guess people find solace in the thought that they did the best they could, which most of the time isn't true, and then will just blame it on talent and be done with it.


Whoever brought up Mozart or other musical artists. Mozart already took lessons in several aspects of music when he was like 5 years old from a professional musician ( his dad ) and probably watched him play for way longer. There's a very strong possibility that this might be the reason for his success and not just some born natural talent.



There's no reason to think about concepts like talent unless you're looking for excuses or solace, a solution why you aren't where you want to be.
And yes, there is something like "efficiently" spending your time learning something, yet you can do something for years in your life and never get really better at it.

Drawing is a prime example. Many people are drawing for several years but are still floating at a level of someone who invested around a year really learning drawing simply because they never bothered to push their knowledge and learn about all the other things that make you better at it.

When you just casually play games, or osu, and you just play casually, have no ->real<- intentions of getting better then you will probably only improve on a small scale. Which is fine. Noone says you have to be good at something to be happy with where you're at, but saying you aren't top100 / pro artist because you lack talent imo is just a wrong thing to do.


I don't doubt people would really like to be good at something, but I do believe that most people really don't like to invest the time.



You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?

Rayne wrote:

You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?

Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.

NixXSkate wrote:

Rayne wrote:

You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?

Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.

^ This, it's just a fact that everyone is different. Improving at a slower rate doesn't mean that person is lazy and/or is practising in a wrong way. Do you really think that everyone who gets music education since 5 years old can become the new mozart or everyone who practices sprinting their entire life can compete with Usain Bolt? Of course you shouldn't let the concept of talent stop you from practising and improving but it's bs to claim it doesn't exist when there are people practising for years or even their entire life that will never reach the very top.

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*.

Got 200 ms avg 1st try, 180ms avg 2nd try. So does this mean i'm guaranteed top 100 within the next year?????







But seriously did you look at the chart that's on the link you posted? The average is 281ms, not 215. Anyways color contrast tests in general are not a good measurement of reaction times for quite a few reasons. In any case it's a pretty poor excuse in regards to osu.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

there's nothing anyone can do to affect talent itself.

What if there was? Then, all you would need to do is quantify what the source is to be able to improve "talent".

But, then again, the whole reason this is so debatable is because talent is supposedly unquantifiable in the first place...

SirOxorsid wrote:

ManuelOsuPlayer wrote:

Talent it's there. https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The average it's around 215ms. My average after 10 trys it's 470. I have S scores fc at AR10'4 3*.

Got 200 ms avg 1st try, 180ms avg 2nd try. So does this mean i'm guaranteed top 100 within the next year?????







But seriously did you look at the chart that's on the link you posted? The average is 281ms, not 215. Anyways color contrast tests in general are not a good measurement of reaction times for quite a few reasons. In any case it's a pretty poor excuse in regards to osu.

Wtf is with your reaction times lmao... Mine is 250-300.

I got like 300 ms on those things when I played and I could at least play ar 6-10.5 so

No excuses. Also I still hold ar > 10.33 is irrelevant

In my opinion, you can have talent in osu! whether you are a 3 digits or a 6 digits.
I think talent depends on your mindset and approach to the game, and the ambition that you have. You also have to like the game in order to make use of the talent you have got. Everyone has talent in at least one thing in life, and it can probably be osu!. Just find out where you're good at and what fits to you, for example if you are good at aim, streams, reading etc. Talent in any special category is something which you discover when you get to know that specific category for the first time. When I started the game and practised streams for the first time, I immediately understood how you had to do it and sympathized with this special category. Just try to find the category that fits you the best and that you learn the easiest, which for me is streaming

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

And I think a thread about talent is unnecessary because I don't think anyone should focus on the concept of it. If it exists, there's nothing you can do about it but work harder. If it doesn't exist, then just work harder.

I don't really agree with your statement, for me talent is something you have to figure out for yourself and also take the time for it, so you should focus on it in order to improve faster ! Knowing that you have talent in a special side of the game is also a great feeling !

Philosofikal wrote:

I Give Up wrote:

Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.

I suppose a better way to phrase what I'm asking is "Does our natural affinity or disaffinity for something raise or lower the skill ceiling, and not just the rate of skill growth?" Does a person with "talent" simply hit their ceiling quicker? Can hard work fully substitute for natural affinity?

Everyone hits their ceiling at some point, typically at 1-2 year in the game. From then on its about niche training to push that ceiling further. Talented people who put in work will reach their ceiling faster, but will also be able to push their limits further and at a much quicker pace as well. Hard work alone cannot win.

I Give Up wrote:

Everyone hits their ceiling at some point, typically at 1-2 year in the game. From then on its about niche training to push that ceiling further. Talented people who put in work will reach their ceiling faster, but will also be able to push their limits further and at a much quicker pace as well. Hard work alone cannot win.

I don't think we have the same definition of ceiling.

The whole ceiling concept is kind of ridiculous.

SirOxorsid wrote:

The whole ceiling concept is kind of ridiculous.

So you believe anyone can be the best, then?

.

Reminder OP was active 2 ears ago here and had not played a substantial amount since then


Remember your cod videos

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Reminder OP was active 2 ears ago here and had not played a substantial amount since then


Remember your cod videos

What are you even trying to say, other than that you're not too immature to stir up two year old drama? I don't get the purpose of this post.

You're someone who hasn't bothered putting in the effort over a long period of time yet waste time making threads about this and conjecturing over talent

Look at your fucking sig quote

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

You're someone who hasn't bothered putting in the effort over a long period of time yet waste time making threads about this and conjecturing over talent

Look at your fucking sig quote

Show me anywhere in this thread where I implied that this question has anything to do with me in particular.

If anything, my responses in this thread should reveal that I DON'T believe in talent, even though I've been trying to maintain the appearance of neutrality for the sake of discussion.

Show me where ai implied the question implies having anything to do with you specifically

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Show me where ai implied the question implies having anything to do with you specifically

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

You're someone who hasn't bothered putting in the effort over a long period of time yet waste time making threads about this and conjecturing over talent

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

Reminder OP was active 2 ears ago here and had not played a substantial amount since then

I didn't have to look very hard. What other motivation would cause these random personal attacks? I mean really now, you're not exactly playing 4D chess here. Feel free to backpedal and cease derailing my thead now that I didn't take your shitty low effort bait.

And for the record, why in the hell would I be posting this thread trying to justify not getting better when I am right in the middle of a period of growth? I'm not anywhere near my ceiling, and I'd be getting better even faster if I wasn't also simultaneously devoting a huge amount of time that I could spend playing into making a super polished skin instead.

Philosofikal wrote:

I Give Up wrote:

I don't think we have the same definition of ceiling.

No one has ever even come close to their final form coz no-one has ever put olympic amount of effort into this game. The "ceiling" that most people are thinking of is the same one I am refering to in my response

Nattsun wrote:

I played the guitar for years, why am I not as good as Jimmy Hendrix :^)

Hendrix practiced with an intense passion and for his entire life. A few years of bad practice would produce results that would seem abysmal in comparison.

Philosofikal wrote:

But, given a theoretical infinite of time, do you believe that there's anything stopping a "bad" player from being as skilled as a "good" player, even if it takes them longer? There have to be ceilings to human skill - do less "talented" people have the same theoretical ceiling if they push themselves hard enough, for long enough? Do we all have individual limits, or a shared limit that some of us reach faster than others?

It probably depends on what is causing the ceiling. There are many things you can change to increase your maximum skill level. Diet, Fitness, Mindset, Equipment, technique, practice method, practice frequency, practice length and many many other things make an impact.

I just bought gloves today since they would keep my hands warm because having cold hands can effect the healing speed of your hands.

... and also because they are comfy

I Give Up wrote:

Talent exists regardless of whether or not you believe it. Since we are all not identical clones, our traits and affinities are all different. So naturally you're going to be worse at some things but also better at certain things than most people, that's what we call a talent! And on other news the sky is blue and water is wet.

Its true that everyone is different, but how much of that genetic difference actually effects that persons potential? There are no real conclusive answers to this question and there probably wont be for a very long time because of the massive number of complex variables that effect potential. To have an accurate experiment all of these would need to be controlled.

[Taiga] wrote:

I already had surgery due RSI and not made by osu! specifically but due how much time i spend on computer and how many years I work that way

I am physically unable to bypass certain speed level

Yes you are physically unable to bypass a certain speed level but its not because of talent its because you had RSI. RSI can be prevented and preventing it has little to do with talent, same goes with a lot of other things that effect potential.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Yes you are physically unable to bypass a certain speed level but its not because of talent its because you had RSI. RSI can be prevented and preventing it has little to do with talent, same goes with a lot of other things that effect potential.

So how does one prevent RSI? Isn't this also greatly decided by the anatomy of your hand/wrist? I got carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist probably caused by my mouse usage, so you claim that it is entirely my fault for not preventing it?

Nattsun wrote:

Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)

Of course not. Only 100 people will ever be a top 100 player. If you decide to define the talented as the people who reach the top 100, then per definition anyone who ever reaches the top will be "talented", and you can never "prove" that anyone can beat talent with hard work, because the moment they do, they are "talented".

While I have no say in if talent does exist or not, since it's not something I'm actively researching or not, being good at almost anything comes down to how much time you spend on something, and how you've been spending that time.

For example, even if you play the piano for your whole life, you're not going to be better than someone who played for a year, if all the time you spent was practicing the piano using 1 finger from each hand.

Although it's an extreme comparison, the same pretty much goes for osu! as well. Spending time to get better at some specific part of the game doesn't mean you just keep playing; you have to actually identify your shortcomings and practice "correctly" according to the problems. Otherwise all you're doing is reinforcing what you're doing wrong.

Other factors also include things like your mindset to the game and improvement in general, as well as just what you prefer to play and find fun. Most people are good at the things they find fun. You could argue that they find it fun because they can do it, but it could equally be that they're good at it because they think it's fun and thus spent much more time on those aspects of the game than other parts. Similarly, when you're trying to get better at something you don't enjoy as much, it feels like a chore, it's frustrating, and you're less likely to objectively look at yourself and assess what needs to be done to improve.

Will there be a point where your genetic ability to amass slightly more muscles in your index and middle finger make a difference? Perhaps, but osu! at this point is not even close to where supposed talent would really affect what is and isn't possible. Hell, just look at the overall difference in skill of all players from today compared to those of 2014.

NixXSkate wrote:

Rayne wrote:

You'd be better off just forgetting about things like talent because whether it exists or not you can't influence it anyway, yet people are so passionate about its existence. I wonder why that is?

Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.

Though by claiming it to be talent you're equally discrediting the people that did make it through hard work and dedication.

tomden wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Yes you are physically unable to bypass a certain speed level but its not because of talent its because you had RSI. RSI can be prevented and preventing it has little to do with talent, same goes with a lot of other things that effect potential.

So how does one prevent RSI? Isn't this also greatly decided by the anatomy of your hand/wrist? I got carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist probably caused by my mouse usage, so you claim that it is entirely my fault for not preventing it?

By paying attention to your hands/body when it tells you something's wrong, hand stretching, frequent breaks, consulting a doctor/someone who knows about your hand posture and have them correct it to minimize the risk of RSI, getting more ergonomic peripherals, actually stopping and letting your hands heal.

There's a plethora of things you can do to prevent it. It's called Repetitive Strain Injury. Worst case scenario, stop repeating the same motions and actually let your hands take a break before you develop RSI.

SirOxorsid wrote:

Nattsun wrote:

Implying that everyone could've become a top100 player, but we decided not to :-)

Well that's true enough since unless you live and breathe osu! it's not going to happen.

It's a mentality thing more than anything. When you go to a concert/play/whatever and see a great performance, you might say "that person is really talented", but you really mean "that person really worked their ass off". The main reason I didn't like the OPs argument in the other thread is he's trying to quantify something that I don't think should even be quantified in the first place. He's pretty much calling those with a higher playcount "untalented" which is flawed in so many ways and doesn't account for so many variables (time spent offline, time spent not trying for great plays, time spent maybe replaying the same map 2000 times because you just really want that great score, multiplayer). And even if all those variables were accounted for it's still doesn't make sense to try to quantify an abstract idea. It's completely bizarre to me that he would say anyone under 5k wouldn't have the potential to get to the top, that alone should be proof of someone's dedication to the game.

It'd be cool if we could get an actual osu pro's input on this.

Not everyone can become the best. That's why I posted that "implying that..." text. It was partly sarcasm, but there is truth behind it.

If two people do the same thing, let's say you and me both want to hit #1 in osu!. We are basically playing the same maps, same sleep schedule etc. pp, but you end up with rank 100 after years of practice and I am stuck at rank 200. How can that happen? I was just less talented than you. Same goes for athletics. Do you think people who participate at the Olympics are trying less than Usain Bolt? They practice at least as much as him, but no one comes even close to his times.

Talent is a thing and denying it is ridiculous, but using it as excuse is even worse. We are talking about a circle clicking game here, everyone can farm his way to at least a 3 digit rank if he invests a truckload of time. Especially with the low amount of players compared to other games it is not even THAT hard... Doing crazy stuff like Gayz on the other hand is indeed a matter of talent, just look at Kynan, how hard he tried and yet he can't compete with him.

CXu wrote:

By paying attention to your hands/body when it tells you something's wrong, hand stretching, frequent breaks, consulting a doctor/someone who knows about your hand posture and have them correct it to minimize the risk of RSI, getting more ergonomic peripherals, actually stopping and letting your hands heal.

There's a plethora of things you can do to prevent it. It's called Repetitive Strain Injury. Worst case scenario, stop repeating the same motions and actually let your hands take a break before you develop RSI.

Yes of course from the moment I got diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome I followed the advice of my doctor and took a break of a few months got wrist rests, started using text editors that don't require the usage of a mouse when working etc. But that was after I started developping it since I never had any problems before despite using a mouse daily for over 10 years. Once you start feeling that something is wrong you can easily minimize the risk of it getting worse but preventing getting it in the first place I'm not sure about that.

Nattsun, that example is just hypothesis though and doesn't prove anything. It's a pure assumption.
As stated before there are are countless tiny and big unknown variables that influence the outcome. Even if you did the same things from now on, you'd still have done vastly different things before that moment that would still influence the outcome.


This discussion is repetitive. No side can really prove their point, nor deny the others. A bit like religion talk. Pointless.
It's just up to you what you believe in, and in my opinion it's the better idea to not believe it.

The Genes vs environmental influences discussion is really old, still ongoing and still hasn't really come to real conclusions, simply because it's pretty much impossible to prove either ones point. It's more philosophical than anything else.

If you're interested in that, just read up on "Nature vs Nurture"

We don't know how hard the other olympics practice, if they practice harder or less than Bolt, what kind of genes Bolt has, or if there are any "sport genes" at all. What kind of past all the olympics have, all those little variables we can impossibly know, hence why it is just a matter of believing.

CXu wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

Because of people like you who think players are bad simply because they're lazier than the other person. Because of people like me who practiced streaming for years to go from abysmal level to mediocre, for you to then walk in and suggest that talent doesn't exist is kinda infuriating. You discredit the work of the untalented that don't give up by doing that. You act like I want talent to exist, why the fuck would I want that? I just acknowledge it exists and continue to play anyway.

Though by claiming it to be talent you're equally discrediting the people that did make it through hard work and dedication.

Never said talent allows you to be good without hard work, it just enables you to be better with hard work. It's unfair to assume that the amount skill someone has is purely based on how hard and how well they work. I'm not saying natural talent = talent.

Rayne wrote:

The Genes vs environmental influences discussion is really old, still ongoing and still hasn't really come to real conclusions, simply because it's pretty much impossible to prove either ones point. It's more philosophical than anything else.

Doesn't the existence of savants basically prove talent exists? Such an obvious sign that brains are wired differently...

Rayne wrote:

Nattsun, that example is just hypothesis though and doesn't prove anything. It's a pure assumption.
As stated before there are are countless tiny and big unknown variables that influence the outcome. Even if you did the same things from now on, you'd still have done vastly different things before that moment that would still influence the outcome.

It was indeed just a hypothesis, but the outcome will be different, be it your reasons or "talent".

This discussion is repetitive. No side can really prove their point, nor deny the others. A bit like religion talk. Pointless.
It's just up to you what you believe in, and in my opinion it's the better idea to not believe it.

Religion talk is not pointless. The only pointless thing to talk about the existence of a god. Nobody can proof neither deny his existence.

The Genes vs environmental influences discussion is really old, still ongoing and still hasn't really come to real conclusions, simply because it's pretty much impossible to prove either ones point. It's more philosophical than anything else.

If you're interested in that, just read up on "Nature vs Nurture"

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely glance over that debate (I assume it is a debate lol).

We don't know how hard the other olympics practice, if they practice harder or less than Bolt, what kind of genes Bolt has, or if there are any "sport genes" at all. What kind of past all the olympics have, all those little variables we can impossibly know, hence why it is just a matter of believing.

I agree, but I'll just add that I never stated that Bolt doesn't practice hard. There is a "something" that makes/made him superior to others to his prime,
you can't really deny that, can you? I just assumed that he is just more talented than others, it may be something else.

PS: I still believe in the concept of "talent". It is something I can't proof, indeed, but is it wrong to believe in talent? It's not like I blame talent for my lack of skill, I just believe that I will be outclassed by someone who is talented if we invest the same amount of time into the same thing. If I think about it you could say that I was "talented" in certain things, I was insanely good in table tennis without trying and investing time, while others played for years and were not even close to my skill level, can we just assume I was more talented? Because I don't see why I should've been better than others, I didn't do any similar sport, neither dedicated my short time to that sports.

NixXSkate wrote:

Doesn't the existence of savants basically prove talent exists? Such an obvious sign that brains are wired differently...

Not really, there have been savants that have had injuries to the brain that end up with similar results. These people cant function normally so they end up spending a lot of time and attention to the mental faculties they have left which in turn become overdeveloped compared to most people.

tomden wrote:

So how does one prevent RSI? Isn't this also greatly decided by the anatomy of your hand/wrist? I got carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist probably caused by my mouse usage, so you claim that it is entirely my fault for not preventing it?

I wouldn't say its your fault since you probably didn't know what you were doing wrong. However there are a massive number of things to reduce the strain and increase healing speed so you can play the same amount while also not getting RSI.

Reduce the strain:
1. Play less but play more often. The longer you play the more strain compounds and takes longer to heal.
2. Be conscious of the way you play, have a mixture of slow and fast play so you get rid of excess movement while also going through the motions so no movement is left out. [1]
3. Make sure your desk ergonomics are not causing unnecessary strain. Play with your wrists straight, your feet on the ground and your monitor at a comfortable height
4. Be conscious of what your body is telling you. If you feel unwell or or in any sort of pain stop immediately. [4] [5]

Increase healing speed
1. Sleep as much as possible and as deeply as possible. Some studies have shown that people who sleep in are more likely to be depressed but don't let this dissuade you. It looks like sleeping more is a product of the depression and not the other way around and sleeping more increases performance and healing. Sticking to a sleep schedule, not eating before sleeping and many other factors can increase sleep quality. Check out sources [2] [3] and [5] for more info.
2. Stretch properly. Many people stretch while in pain or around the time they play which just adds to the strain. Stretching helps you recover properly but should be done minimally. If you don't know exactly why or how to stretch don't do it.
3. Have a healthy diet that decreases inflammation and promotes healing. Cut out processed foods and sugars, eat mostly vegetables and if you eat meat only eat small amounts. [2]
4. Exercise. The same principal here applies as I've explained above, do less but do it more often. Exercising once a week for an hour is not as good as exercising each day for 8 minutes.

There is a plethora of information on the internet but its not specific to osu so you may have to look into material for bodybuilders/musicians to find tips to improve.

References
[1] https://tomhess.net/HowToPracticeToIncr ... Speed.aspx
[2] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqYPhG ... ZorfgcL2lA
[3] https://www.outsideonline.com/1924936/y ... much-sleep
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdv-ODpFQo0
[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsMH6OoAe-8

And to answer your question, no I believe anatomy is only a very small part of RSI.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

I wouldn't say its your fault since you probably didn't know what you were doing wrong.

This was my point, when I read your reply on taiga's post it sounded like it was taiga's fault for getting RSI. You only start noticing that something is wrong at the moment you actually feel that something is wrong at which point it migh already pretty severe depending on what kind of injury it is (for example a neural problem is way harder to detect early than a muscle disorder). If i developed some kind of injury in my left wrist I would kinda understand since I was spamming deathstreams 24/7 but I never felt any discomfort in my right wrist when playing.

And thanks for the post giving advice on how to deal with/prevent rsi. It's a good read.