.
forum
.
posted
Total Posts
27
nice idea to write something like this up, but the core problem is PP ... because you never will make PP with your 7k plays until you can S 5* maps now since DT even higher there is no need to play 7k at all. thats the main reason why people stick to 4k.
the simplest method to alter this is to separate all Key-Modes to different Ladder Board
Later on many good players end up playing in other games or playing converts cause OSU don't got many 7k charts over 50% of my 7k maps are converts ...
And i have a problem with you advising to make Auto-Converts to 7k maps they should delete all Auto-Converts they are just Bad and Offbeat maybe 1% is not
the simplest method to alter this is to separate all Key-Modes to different Ladder Board
Later on many good players end up playing in other games or playing converts cause OSU don't got many 7k charts over 50% of my 7k maps are converts ...
And i have a problem with you advising to make Auto-Converts to 7k maps they should delete all Auto-Converts they are just Bad and Offbeat maybe 1% is not
i wish i started with 7k, now if i try to train 7k i get bored easily because the im stuck around 3 stars and i just want to play harder songs
Actually, Autoconverts ARE bad practice. They use bad patterns you will not see in real maps. They do not use many of the kinds of patterns you see in real maps. If a player spends too much time playing autoconverts, then tries real maps, there's a chance they will get angry/hate real maps, because suddenly things are much harder than in the autoconverts. For example, autoconverts almost never have notes at the same time as an LN. When they do, it's always directly beside the LN, and repeats the same key until the LN is over. This pattern is never seen in real maps.Sr_Korah wrote:
-ReTLoM
I know what you mean, but remember newcomers mania players will start with autoconverts, and autoconverts aren't bad to practice for players that are starting the game, and because of that indeed it will make the osu!mania environment more 7k and higher keys friendly.
I agree that newcomers should be encouraged to try 7k, but I don't think there's anything you can really do that will help things. I think the only way 7k will become truly popular is if the 4k community really make a push to improve 7k's popularity within the 4k community.
Well to be fair, the highest SR I could play in 4k was around 5.3, and even then that was only for underrated stuff, but in 7k I can pass much higher SR stuff, so my top plays are mostly 7k... And I did technically start playing 4k for a few years before I ever played 7k.... (That said, I've been focused on 7k for longer than 4k...)ReTLoM wrote:
nice idea to write something like this up, but the core problem is PP ... because you never will make PP with your 7k plays until you can S 5* maps now since DT even higher there is no need to play 7k at all. thats the main reason why people stick to 4k.
Sr_Korah wrote:
-ReTLoM
I know what you mean, but remember newcomers mania players will start with autoconverts, and autoconverts aren't bad to practice for players that are starting the game, and because of that indeed it will make the osu!mania environment more 7k and higher keys friendly.
Autoconverts aren't unfunny for beginners and even people with just weeks of experience.
Also, please, I don't want to turn this into a discussion of that nature, that's the last thing I want to happen.
Sure they should play 7k 4k or what ever they want to play BUT Auto-Convertes are just stupid to play even as a beginner you will learn
-WRONG TIMING because they are not maped towards the music
-They are mostly awkward to play cause random generated patterns that make no sense and it feels off
they where introduced to the game because Osu was lacking of Mania maps at the beginning but now we have plenty of original Mania Charts thats why they should remove it so player can play REAL proper MANIA maps!
Maybe you will under stand it if you gather more Experience in future :3
Bobbias wrote:
Well to be fair, the highest SR I could play in 4k was around 5.3, and even then that was only for underrated stuff, but in 7k I can pass much higher SR stuff, so my top plays are mostly 7k... And I did technically start playing 4k for a few years before I ever played 7k.... (That said, I've been focused on 7k for longer than 4k...)ReTLoM wrote:
nice idea to write something like this up, but the core problem is PP ... because you never will make PP with your 7k plays until you can S 5* maps now since DT even higher there is no need to play 7k at all. thats the main reason why people stick to 4k.
yeah thats why i say up to 5* you dont make 7k score (i assumed investing the same amount of time in 7k and 4k every day) and after 5* there is a BIG BIG speed wall in 4k because it runs out of patterns and only will get faster and faster. Many people reach there a physical Wall! In 7k the fun starts at 5* maps and you will get LNs, Brackets heavy maps, ... so much more diversity
but now with DT there are PP maps out where you can spam through with decent 4k skill and GG bye bye 6,5* 7k Top Score
i only play 7k since i started out mania except the time i broke my Spacebar Thumb so i can only play around 4,5-5* 4k maps but play significant higher 7k maps just like you. But i can see Topscores of my friend who is playing only 4k and since DT there is no way to catch up again 
The only reason I picked 4K up is because of my previous experiences with other VSRGs. But this seems like a very nice initiative for newer players.
7k will never be popular in osu because it is too inaccessible for the average circle clicker giving mania a shot.
With 7k you have to coordinate 7 fingers asymmetrically over both hands, and get used to the idea of using one thumb or pinky on either hand. This means that, for the average player, the first days if not weeks of 7k will mean struggling to even press single keys and progressing very, very slowly. In contrast, you can already 'play' 4k after maybe four or five songs because that's how long it takes for your index and middle fingers to get used to the idea of pressing a button when the corresponding note passes a line at the bottom of your screen. Since 4k patterns don't get particularly interesting or complex until well into the 3 star range, progression is considerably faster than higher keymodes.
Combine this with the fact that higher scores + pp = fun, anyone with no particular interest in higher keymodes right of the bat will be drawn to 4k because it is just more satisfying and rewarding when starting out. I don't think I need to address that practically no 4k player ever bothers with learning 5k+ at all.
Learning the basics of 7k requires just too much time and patience for someone who has no real interest in it. Though I appreciate the idea of you trying to spark their interest, I think it'll take more than presenting them a couple of low level maps and some general tips.
Also I'm gonna nitpick this little remark here.
With 7k you have to coordinate 7 fingers asymmetrically over both hands, and get used to the idea of using one thumb or pinky on either hand. This means that, for the average player, the first days if not weeks of 7k will mean struggling to even press single keys and progressing very, very slowly. In contrast, you can already 'play' 4k after maybe four or five songs because that's how long it takes for your index and middle fingers to get used to the idea of pressing a button when the corresponding note passes a line at the bottom of your screen. Since 4k patterns don't get particularly interesting or complex until well into the 3 star range, progression is considerably faster than higher keymodes.
Combine this with the fact that higher scores + pp = fun, anyone with no particular interest in higher keymodes right of the bat will be drawn to 4k because it is just more satisfying and rewarding when starting out. I don't think I need to address that practically no 4k player ever bothers with learning 5k+ at all.
Learning the basics of 7k requires just too much time and patience for someone who has no real interest in it. Though I appreciate the idea of you trying to spark their interest, I think it'll take more than presenting them a couple of low level maps and some general tips.
Also I'm gonna nitpick this little remark here.
I could not disagree more. This is already way too fast for learning 7k. I'd suggest 17 or 18 for getting the basics down, then slowly increasing your scrollspeed as you get better.Sr_Korah wrote:
24 or 25 are good scrolling speeds to start with.
Hell, you could even start slower than that. But yeah, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to the coordination difficulty. As someone who plays both 4k and 7k, I would personally say 7k maps are just flat out more interesting and fun at higher SR than 4k, due to the speed wall ReTLoM mentioned, but the sheer difficulty of learning 7k means it's never going to be as popular as 4k.
It takes significant time investment to learn 7k, and if you only play 7k once in a while things get worse. Someone who plays 4k most of the time and dabbles in 7k will usually only see very slow improvement. Every time you switch back to 4k, you're making it harder to keep learning 7k, and since most players start out with 4k and only begin learning 7k later on, this means the majority of players trying to learn 7k are "doing it wrong" and making it even harder than it already is for someone who isn't playing 4k as well.
EDIT: and just to be clear, I'd LOVE for newcomers to start learning 7k. I spent the first 2 or 3 years of osu!mania almost completely ignoring 4k. I've been around since day 1, and I was the first person to upload a collection of o2jam conversions so people had more maps to play. I love 7k. But sometimes things suck and you can't do anything about it.
It takes significant time investment to learn 7k, and if you only play 7k once in a while things get worse. Someone who plays 4k most of the time and dabbles in 7k will usually only see very slow improvement. Every time you switch back to 4k, you're making it harder to keep learning 7k, and since most players start out with 4k and only begin learning 7k later on, this means the majority of players trying to learn 7k are "doing it wrong" and making it even harder than it already is for someone who isn't playing 4k as well.
EDIT: and just to be clear, I'd LOVE for newcomers to start learning 7k. I spent the first 2 or 3 years of osu!mania almost completely ignoring 4k. I've been around since day 1, and I was the first person to upload a collection of o2jam conversions so people had more maps to play. I love 7k. But sometimes things suck and you can't do anything about it.
Oh I'm not implying it's impossible to learn higher keymodes, on the contrary, it's actually not that hard once your fingers get used to it. What I am saying is that it requires a certain mentality if not downright obsession to get to that point. I think in the end, it comes down to convincing players it'll be worth the effort and that playing only 4k will only limit them in the long run.
It is interesting to learn higher keymodes. I once tried learning 14k. That is until my only competition stopped playing due to IRL stuff.
I also play 7k occasionally, but unless there is someone to consistently challenge me, I play it casually. And it always happens that I improve slower than my competition, so my competition becomes too much for me and I back to square one.
I continue with 4k because my completion there is myself via pp. At least that's the metric that makes me happy when it increases. I can go for acc in local plays, which I did, but my replay files got wiped recently, so now I'm back to just pp.
I also play 7k occasionally, but unless there is someone to consistently challenge me, I play it casually. And it always happens that I improve slower than my competition, so my competition becomes too much for me and I back to square one.
I continue with 4k because my completion there is myself via pp. At least that's the metric that makes me happy when it increases. I can go for acc in local plays, which I did, but my replay files got wiped recently, so now I'm back to just pp.
I really like the idea of this
Me as myself I only was playing 4k untill lvl 65 on mania and then I started playing 7k and I found it really fun to play even tho it was hard to learn I got the hand of it really quickly. And yeah osu! really needs to give people a chance to play other gamemodes because when they first start to play they are only introduced to osu!standard. I think osu! should have some of the maps of other gamemodes because when people download the game because imo its really sad that they are only itroduced to osu!standard. And I think thats really sad because some of the new people dont like osu regular and they think thats everything that it has to offer so they quit without finding out about the other gamemodes.
sorry for the bad grammar lol
Me as myself I only was playing 4k untill lvl 65 on mania and then I started playing 7k and I found it really fun to play even tho it was hard to learn I got the hand of it really quickly. And yeah osu! really needs to give people a chance to play other gamemodes because when they first start to play they are only introduced to osu!standard. I think osu! should have some of the maps of other gamemodes because when people download the game because imo its really sad that they are only itroduced to osu!standard. And I think thats really sad because some of the new people dont like osu regular and they think thats everything that it has to offer so they quit without finding out about the other gamemodes.
sorry for the bad grammar lol
Tripletth wrote:
7k will never be popular in osu because it is too inaccessible for the average circle clicker giving mania a shot.
With 7k you have to coordinate 7 fingers asymmetrically over both hands, and get used to the idea of using one thumb or pinky on either hand. This means that, for the average player, the first days if not weeks of 7k will mean struggling to even press single keys and progressing very, very slowly. In contrast, you can already 'play' 4k after maybe four or five songs because that's how long it takes for your index and middle fingers to get used to the idea of pressing a button when the corresponding note passes a line at the bottom of your screen. Since 4k patterns don't get particularly interesting or complex until well into the 3 star range, progression is considerably faster than higher keymodes.
Combine this with the fact that higher scores + pp = fun, anyone with no particular interest in higher keymodes right of the bat will be drawn to 4k because it is just more satisfying and rewarding when starting out. I don't think I need to address that practically no 4k player ever bothers with learning 5k+ at all.
Learning the basics of 7k requires just too much time and patience for someone who has no real interest in it. Though I appreciate the idea of you trying to spark their interest, I think it'll take more than presenting them a couple of low level maps and some general tips.
Also I'm gonna nitpick this little remark here.I could not disagree more. This is already way too fast for learning 7k. I'd suggest 17 or 18 for getting the basics down, then slowly increasing your scrollspeed as you get better.Sr_Korah wrote:
24 or 25 are good scrolling speeds to start with.
How fast the scroll speed appears depends on the theme. 26 on some 7k themes is perfectly readable for me for 7k whereas for example an o2jam theme requires me to use a lower speed mod around 19.
usually the wider the lane means the higher speed you need to have in order to be comfortableConnormgs wrote:
How fast the scroll speed appears depends on the theme. 26 on some 7k themes is perfectly readable for me for 7k whereas for example an o2jam theme requires me to use a lower speed mod around 19.
about me, i started playing 7k converts a few months after playing 4k because of my curiousity, and i should say that 7k converts are completely fine until you reach 3*
7k needs way more dedication than 7k, and usually requires skill you dont have (reading), whereas 4k requires skill you already have (stamina). your improvements are also less noticable throughout years of playing on 7k. but it's worth it in the long run
well spoken words i play almost only 7k since 1 years and still stuck at 5/6* but finally was able to beat most of the BAD 4k pp maps xDAncuL wrote:
your improvements are also less noticable throughout years of playing on 7k
Really interesting read. I totally support the idea to get the community into the higher keymodes in osu!mania.
When i started with osu!mania back then i started with 7K. It was because i saw the MWC7K.
The problem why i didn't stay in 7K: It was way harder to learn then 4K. I often was frustrated that i didn't improve and changed back to 4K because it was easier and i improved way faster. Later i completelly stopped with 7K and did stay in 4K.
Maybe it was just me but i think a lot of osu!mania 7K (and higher) maps for beginner are simply too hard. I as beginner had an extreme problem with finger independence and a lot of Easy maps had already pretty complicated pattern.
To Autoconverted Maps: I must agree to both. They are good and bad.
The bad thing on autoconverts: They give beginner a wrong view of osu!mania pattern. They use the x axis of the placed circles of the osu! map which can end in really bad pattern. Also the LN usage is often weird on higher sr converted maps.
And here we come to the good point of it: Playing converted maps helps to improve in finger independence! Once i started again with 7K i played a lot of converted beatmaps and when i then played an 7K beatmap it was way easier to hit certain pattern.
The next problem is: osu!mania beatmaps. Let's face the fact: At least 80% of osu!mania mapper which map for ranked are 4K mapper. Probably again because either they don't play 7K or doesn't know how to start mapping and modding the higher modes. While i must say that modding isn't that different from 4K (i don't say it isn't because there are some things different), mapping is. I had a really big problem with starting mapping higher key modes. I didn't know how to place pattern and what plays good. A big problem here was also that because of the lack of high keymode Mapper, i never know who i can ask for some advice.
That being said, i support every idea which could help to get more people into higher keymode playing and mapping.
People who explain newcomer how this game even works.
Higher keymode Mapper which can explain other what is important. What is good/bad etc.
And don't forget about 9K! 9K is really fun!
When i started with osu!mania back then i started with 7K. It was because i saw the MWC7K.
The problem why i didn't stay in 7K: It was way harder to learn then 4K. I often was frustrated that i didn't improve and changed back to 4K because it was easier and i improved way faster. Later i completelly stopped with 7K and did stay in 4K.
Maybe it was just me but i think a lot of osu!mania 7K (and higher) maps for beginner are simply too hard. I as beginner had an extreme problem with finger independence and a lot of Easy maps had already pretty complicated pattern.
To Autoconverted Maps: I must agree to both. They are good and bad.
The bad thing on autoconverts: They give beginner a wrong view of osu!mania pattern. They use the x axis of the placed circles of the osu! map which can end in really bad pattern. Also the LN usage is often weird on higher sr converted maps.
And here we come to the good point of it: Playing converted maps helps to improve in finger independence! Once i started again with 7K i played a lot of converted beatmaps and when i then played an 7K beatmap it was way easier to hit certain pattern.
The next problem is: osu!mania beatmaps. Let's face the fact: At least 80% of osu!mania mapper which map for ranked are 4K mapper. Probably again because either they don't play 7K or doesn't know how to start mapping and modding the higher modes. While i must say that modding isn't that different from 4K (i don't say it isn't because there are some things different), mapping is. I had a really big problem with starting mapping higher key modes. I didn't know how to place pattern and what plays good. A big problem here was also that because of the lack of high keymode Mapper, i never know who i can ask for some advice.
That being said, i support every idea which could help to get more people into higher keymode playing and mapping.
People who explain newcomer how this game even works.
Higher keymode Mapper which can explain other what is important. What is good/bad etc.
And don't forget about 9K! 9K is really fun!
Would be cool if higher keys were more popular but it won't be. There's more ranked 7k maps than ever, especially for novice players, but 7k still remains unpopular and that is because of the mentality people have when they come into the game.
For a lot of people, learning is only fun when you see big improvements very fast, and 4k does a very good job with that at in the beginning.
When you start 7k, you miss half the notes and it's very discouraging for the average person.
I think a good example showing the mentality would be Long Notes. 4k LN maps are very unpopular compared to 4k maps with mostly normal notes.
There aren't many people who play 4k LN maps not only because they're hard, but also because it takes a while to see improvement (for most people anyways), just like 7k.
I had the same mentality when I started this game. I only played 4k and I hated 7k and LN with a passion. I could rant about them all day on how dumb and boring they were. I was lucky because when I started there were few ranked 4k maps so the only ranked songs left were the 7k maps. Those 7k maps also had a good amount of LNs in them. Since I love rhythm games, I decided to force myself to learn 7k and LN. It was very hard at first, but my mentality slowly changed and now I love 7k and LN.
In the end, it's up to the individuals themselves. I don't think we should shove 7k in their faces and stuff. I think there's plenty of encouragement from higher key players for newbies. Just give them all options at the beginning and let them decide from there. The ones that want to learn will learn and enjoy, while the ones that don't want to learn will do their own thing.
Also I agree with Feerum. 9k is awesome!
For a lot of people, learning is only fun when you see big improvements very fast, and 4k does a very good job with that at in the beginning.
When you start 7k, you miss half the notes and it's very discouraging for the average person.
I think a good example showing the mentality would be Long Notes. 4k LN maps are very unpopular compared to 4k maps with mostly normal notes.
There aren't many people who play 4k LN maps not only because they're hard, but also because it takes a while to see improvement (for most people anyways), just like 7k.
I had the same mentality when I started this game. I only played 4k and I hated 7k and LN with a passion. I could rant about them all day on how dumb and boring they were. I was lucky because when I started there were few ranked 4k maps so the only ranked songs left were the 7k maps. Those 7k maps also had a good amount of LNs in them. Since I love rhythm games, I decided to force myself to learn 7k and LN. It was very hard at first, but my mentality slowly changed and now I love 7k and LN.
In the end, it's up to the individuals themselves. I don't think we should shove 7k in their faces and stuff. I think there's plenty of encouragement from higher key players for newbies. Just give them all options at the beginning and let them decide from there. The ones that want to learn will learn and enjoy, while the ones that don't want to learn will do their own thing.
Also I agree with Feerum. 9k is awesome!
First step is to stop treating each keymode as the same game and separate their rankings. Higher keymodes cannot receive attention by players trying out those keymodes if the rankings around them are constantly being overshadowed by 4k.
On the topic of finger independence:
You want to know how to improve finger independence? Play all those maps with hard patterns that feel weird/bad and you suck at. Seriously, focus on stuff that's not fun because of the patterns, because that's the stuff you need to practice in order to get better.
You want to know how to improve finger independence? Play all those maps with hard patterns that feel weird/bad and you suck at. Seriously, focus on stuff that's not fun because of the patterns, because that's the stuff you need to practice in order to get better.
And inverse Maps oWo I still have a hard time to release only 3or 2 of 7 fingers when it gets faster and I practice inverted maps a lotBobbias wrote:
On the topic of finger independence:
You want to know how to improve finger independence? Play all those maps with hard patterns that feel weird/bad and you suck at. Seriously, focus on stuff that's not fun because of the patterns, because that's the stuff you need to practice in order to get better.
I think a big problem is the way the maps are presented to users. There's projects like t/147552 & t/304618 that work on making a smooth progression up the difficulty ladder for 7k (they could also go further perhaps by having in game/in song tutorials briefly explaining patterns and what not?), but it's up to the player to search and find these out. If the mentality is trying 7k for 5 seconds and giving up because it's too hard then chances are they wont touch 7k again.
I learned 7k from playing DJ Max Trilogy. This has from 4K to 8K with a smooth difficulty curve you progress upon as you play and unlock songs/modes. If Osu had a very clear "official" pack of beginner songs then it'd go a long way to helping that learning process. I'm thinking something along the lines of on the site's front page/download page or even in the game's main or song select menu. The point is to make sure a beginner would see it, not force them to find it in the forums.
Another thing that could be copied form DJMax would be the gradual increase in keys. I know starting at 4, working to 5 until reaching 6 and 7 helped a lot. I think jumping straight from 4 to 7 is a bit too daunting for most.
>nice idea to write something like this up, but the core problem is PP ... because you never will make PP with your 7k plays until you can S 5*
I don't mean to sound rude, but do people really care about PP that much? Learning new modes should be about having fun and challenging yourself, not a number on some leader board.
I learned 7k from playing DJ Max Trilogy. This has from 4K to 8K with a smooth difficulty curve you progress upon as you play and unlock songs/modes. If Osu had a very clear "official" pack of beginner songs then it'd go a long way to helping that learning process. I'm thinking something along the lines of on the site's front page/download page or even in the game's main or song select menu. The point is to make sure a beginner would see it, not force them to find it in the forums.
Another thing that could be copied form DJMax would be the gradual increase in keys. I know starting at 4, working to 5 until reaching 6 and 7 helped a lot. I think jumping straight from 4 to 7 is a bit too daunting for most.
>nice idea to write something like this up, but the core problem is PP ... because you never will make PP with your 7k plays until you can S 5*
I don't mean to sound rude, but do people really care about PP that much? Learning new modes should be about having fun and challenging yourself, not a number on some leader board.
if people are coming from other gamemodes then yes the majority of them would care about pp as they have been exposed to the idea of it and often people use it as a very rough estimate to where their skills are at. it also provides competition between players with similar ranks.average_joe wrote:
>nice idea to write something like this up, but the core problem is PP ... because you never will make PP with your 7k plays until you can S 5*
I don't mean to sound rude, but do people really care about PP that much? Learning new modes should be about having fun and challenging yourself, not a number on some leader board.
however, if people are playing osu!mania as their first gamemode, then they are less likely to care about pp because they wouldn't even know what pp is, unless they have done some research.
Im going to point out again that the fastest way to learn 7k is just to accept you suck and play until you get better. Slowly unlocking higher key modes that way creates an association between number of keys and difficulty. We already have something kinda like that since the autoconverts move up in keys as they get harder and thats probably a good part of why more people dont start out playing 7k (and yes autoconverts are still a relevant issue since new players dont always know theres a difference).