Kontinuum - Lost (feat. Savoi) [Sunroof Remix] [OsuMania]

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Evening
In defense of the mapper, I'd like to rebut certain points for this mod and why this mod isn't good for the mapper. I personally don't want to defend ranking criteria, I just want to defend the map.

I understand that Dreamwalker has already read it and addressed it but I think it's food for thought for everyone else

I would take the motive for not ranking the map as to say that is it not rankable and not because it's a bad map
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#1
00:30:285 - As the song is 125 BPM, 1/8 streams and even jumpstreams can be considered fine for short periods of time due to the slow bpm, but we need to keep in mind that this is essentially a 250 BPM 1/4 dense handstream which leaves only 60 ms for players to read and properly hit notes. This alone boosts SR by 0.20* and is an unnecessary spike. A cleaner handstream with 1/4 jumps would be more closely centered to the general difficulty of the chart. A suggestion could be like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/11048440
This is akin to blindly referencing, what's with 125 BPM and 1/8, what's wrong with the numbers and when is it considered fine, where are your references to the other points in the map?

Why is boosting SR by 0.2* a necessary point and why 60 ms, what is the mapper supposed to do with those numbers?

Your current suggestion, is honestly not bad, but it removes certain characteristics from the map itself:

1. 00:30:465 (30465|0,30465|1,30525|2,30525|3,30585|1,30585|0,30645|3,30645|2) - You removed the jumptrill element, in which I felt was an interesting touch to when I was playing it.
2. 00:30:585 (30585|1,30585|0,30705|1,30765|0,30825|1,30885|0,31005|0,31005|1) - The transitions, are alright, it at least has a decent structure and good splitting of what you're supposed to play in that particular time frame.

3. The new pattern feels uninspired and cookie-cutter
My interpretation of Dreamwalker's pattern: https://puu.sh/Av3fb/1d77e0f11c.bmp
My interpretation of Protastic's pattern: https://puu.sh/Av3iU/e079f414e1.bmp

Dreamwalker's presentation of the patterns are neat and tidy, every note serves a particular purpose of either supporting a chord, jumptrill, or representing a one hand trill. The newer pattern, though easier, has the idea of coercing players to just roll right and everything will be fine, that's simplistic and honestly just boring when compared to Dreamwalker's presentation.

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#2
00:34:125 - Accents at consistent intervals for sounds that do not change in volume or emphasis. The first half of each phrase (from 00:36:045 - to 00:37:005 - ) have a much lower note density, whereas the second half of the measure (from 00:37:005 - to 00:37:965 - ) have a large jump in density despite the fact that the song has clearer instruments that are more isolated and lighter in sound. A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play.
I don't get how is interpreting a song like that inappropriate, it's obvious that the mapper wanted to emphasize on the jacks and not the LNs.
While I do understand where you're coming from, it's vague and a shot in a dark to try to push "how you interpret music" as an argument that a map isn't representing it correctly. I thought it was an interesting concept and I have no idea how is that an issue when playing.

"A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play."

The jump in density is intentional, it fits the music, it is supposed to be challenging, and possibly awkward

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#3
00:39:885 - 00:49:485 - 00:51:405 - 00:53:325 - and so on. Yes, there have been other maps where we have allowed 1/8 bursts for bass growls, but they were not as smooth or clean as the sounds here. There is such a negligible amount of vibration or change within each of these synths to warrant these bursts that they are notes for non-existent alterations in the music. Especially combined with long notes which already do an excellent job of representing the long sounds and the SVs which accentuate the more hectic nature of this ending section, these notes almost become redundant. A proposed solution would be to use long notes for the 1/8 bursts instead, and use stronger SV stutters to represent the very slight variations in sound.
This is where it becomes clearly dumping and I'm not going to comment too much on it.

Dreamwalker, if you're going to preserve this as an interesting map, don't bother with ranking, they haven't figured out how to rank a dump. Making it "technically correct" will drive this map into mediocrity and it wouldn't even hold up against factory made maps. Even if you don't care about it too much anymore, don't make it worse

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summary:
I'm going to sound rude but, Dreamwalker, rank something else, it will not be a good map if you just fixed everything.

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footnote:
I personally have other issues with this map but I think i'll not comment on it until next time when i'm not busy

PS:
02:05:025 (125025|0,125025|1,125145|1,125145|0,125265|1,125325|0,125385|1,125505|0,125505|1,125625|1,125625|0) - this is too hard to play

E: grammar
DDMythical
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Protastic101
Ok, apologies about the delay, had some irl stuff pop up after Monday.

After reading dreamwalker, evening, and dd's responses, I realize I may have taken too brash an approach to this map, but I think there are still some acceptable compromises we can come to.

00:09:165 - The suggestion I made here originally wasn't ideal, but listening more closely, the starts and ends of these sounds appear roughly to be like so: with the highlighted note being added as a bridge between the 1/4 to avoid an awkward jump in the rhythm. I think this would be better as it's not full 1/4 yet which feels like an awkward transition coming from 1/2 and 1/1 LNs before, while still introducing light 1/4 usage to foreshadow the streams at 00:16:845 -

00:20:685 - I'm ok with this being as is since it doesn't really make a difference as you said, and I'm sure we've both exhausted our reasoning by now.

00:30:285 - As for this, I'm fine with the compromise we reached in IRC. Raising the HP up to ~9.0 punishes jumptrilling this burst as opposed to the current HP where Im currently able to scrape by with ~92% acc and still more than half HP remaining. You could also try varying the jumptrill to be more than just [12][34], but I think raising the HP is enough by itself.

Protastic101 - Today at 12:02 AM
Alrighty, so
With the LN + 1/8 bursts at places such as 00:51:405 - 00:59:085 - 02:25:485 - 02:33:165 - , I feel like having the 1/8 + the LN is a bit redundant, as Im sure the 1/8 already covers for the synth here. I know there's still that same bass synth that you hear at places like 00:49:485 - , but I think in this case it'd be better to focus on the 3/4 synth as opposed to both which becomes slightly difficult to intuitively grasp the rhythm imo. What you could do is remove the LNs and keep the 1/8, but put 1/4 breaks in between to represent the cut off of the synth. Smth like this

It also discourages mashing in this case because simply mashing will hit the 1/4 pauses too early and cause it to be a 200 or worse when played
This would only apply for the synths that have little pauses between them like the ones timestamped above. Ones with mostly connected sounds like 00:55:245 - could remain the same, or you could just shorten the LNs and end the 1/8 burst in each half 1/4 early to get the same idea across like this

Dreamwalker - Today at 1:59 AM
So I should tell you your first example is way more just simply mash-able than what it is now
Dreamwalker - Today at 2:01 AM
problem would be (1) not being technical (2) not representing the pitch which i intended (3) it is harder to ready the 1/4 gaps between notes comparing with my version which is constant 1/8s (4) players feeling through the section will be way much similar with the only 1/8s sections
I know the sounds are ending about 1/8 earlier, but I "intentionally made it a bit longer to end at 1/2s for better playability", which is the difference between your second screenshot.(edited)
So 'How does this section played'
First, for my patterns, comparing with no-LN section, it let us 'intuitively' grasp the difference of what I tried to express, the changes of pitch which is expressed with LNs.
And about mashing, it's 'intentionally' made like that, which by giving LNs it has 4/3 density for other 3 columns than non-LN sections, which means it's like "1.3x" version.
If a person can clear 1.0x with an border S, that person will struggle with 1.3x and probably get a B or maybe they could even fail, which means it needs way more techniques and skills to play it.
However since I made it with 'less variety' of patterns, which is like only rolling to left or right, it lowers the level of the chart, yet having technical aspects.
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But what happens when i change patterns that you give is,
Patterns will be way less technical, even comparing with the normal 1/8 sections.
Also it'll cause meshing, which means it's hard to deal with the gaps between those 1/8s and '1/4 gaps'.
(which will be played as 1/8 for no spacing, and "1/6s" for the section which has 1/4 gap in it)
Also another problem is this does NOT let players 'intuitively' grasp the rhythm, which will be just feeling like 1/8s and 1/6s randomly placed polyrhythmic section that is awkward to play.
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So you may ask, what's the 'reason for differenciating LN section and non-LN section'?
Reason for me is that gives way much variation while playing yet giving diverse music interpretation with high consistency and techniques.
And if not, it'll be just a boring 1/8 dump chart, which people won't be playing.
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Please keep in mind I won't be ranking this map if I should still change this section.
This might come to you as being rude, but reason for my opinions being strongest for this section is 'this part is already well-made and represents what I intended', which is already proven by more than a hundread people I've asked for testplays.
Also without considering SR, which this map is definitely not made for PP, mashing keys for technical part is one of the aspect that I can gather more players while making players to have technical skills for better scores, since 250bpm streams are not dense enough to just simply mash it and get good acc.
Dreamwalker - Today at 10:15 AM
Good morning prot :sleeping:
Is it um okay to have some discussions that should be solved for qualify?
Now it's over 12 here so if you have time :thinking:

Protastic101 - Today at 10:19 AM
yeah sorry, I just got up like 20 minutes ago
ok so let me read through everything real fast
Fair points i guess. I disagree but it just boils down to personal opinion at this point
What about keeping the LNs and 1/8, but shortening the LNs to have small breaks in them to represent the pauses in the synth?


Easier to hit imo if each LN is one consistent length as opposed to something that varies in a kind of difficult to follow way
Also reduces a 1/8 shield which is the only point where this occurs I believe

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:27 AM
I think you didn't get my point
For me, there are two things that should be considered while making a ranked map
Visuals / how it is played
So of course, some maps could use 'triggering players' to read notes which could be about SVs or about note itself.
But in that case those patterns will just make it hard to read
It might be giving a break to represent the synth however
it feels like notes are just spreaded without having proper structure
which means, as i already made the point "by giving LNs it has 4/3 density...", it should have easier patters for reading and also playing
and actually it's not easier to play, which contradicts to your idea

Protastic101 - Today at 10:35 AM
Ok, i gotta eat and get ready for work, but ill ask fee and ash about this too, and if they dont have anything to comment on, we can get it renominated again

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
okay thanks and i think we need to make a good solution for the first part around 10s

Protastic101 - Today at 10:36 AM
If you could respond to what I posted in the thread, that'd be great as well

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
before 2 bn checks

Protastic101 - Today at 10:36 AM
ye

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
okay i'll try

Protastic101 - Today at 10:36 AM
sorry, i just dont have much time rn before work

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
don't worry it's all good for me
making ranked map a bit faster doesn't mean much

Protastic101 - Today at 8:54 PM
Hm, fee has some stuff he wants to mention as well, so we'll wait until then. It'll probs be another day or so
Ok but going back to what you said about how the notes are spread without a proper structure
I believe they still keep that structure though as the direction of the 1/8 bursts remains the same (all either going left or right)
It takes away the 1/8 shields you had, but I think that's better tbh cuz the release on shields is still a very tight timing window that most will get a 200 on regardless of what they do

Dreamwalker - Today at 8:57 PM
So you mean only one direction through one dumpy section?

Protastic101 - Today at 8:59 PM
You had mentioned earlier that the LNs + 1/8 was fine not because of any technical aspect, but because it was more like an acc check on the player to make sure they were actually able to play the map, which is why they only roll in one direction each time right?
So I'm just saying that you can keep the direction of the burst the same while reducing the length of the LNs to a consistent snap, like 1/2
or you can even make it 7/8 long if you really wanted tbh

Dreamwalker - Today at 9:00 PM
Uhhh
Seems we need some group discussions with people about that

Protastic101 - Today at 9:01 PM
yeah
I guess Ill wait for feru and see what he has to say
DDMythical
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Topic Starter
Dreamwalker
Note to Protastic101

I won't be changing pitch LN + growl 1/8 patterns to be separate, as your examples.
There had been some ranked maps with longer LN length than the sound itself, as Asherz's https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1370973 6K udon diff 00:29:112 (29112|0) - etc.
Also, it will be really awkward to just cut it where the sound ends, while early ending growls are still well matched with current full-length LN (ending at the start of another LN) while playing, since players focus on LNs and to change the finger that is holding through fast rolls. This means players should focus a bit more for those that make people feel the sounds more compact which fits with those early endings. Thus, as I already explained, unmatching the end and start of LNs will definitely trigger players.
For this case, consistent length LN =/= easy to hit

PS. sorry for bad English since I don't have any good idea how I should explain the feeling that players actually get (people who can play the last difficulty with good scores).
Tofu1222
Really hope to see this map back to ranked. I think it's quite fit for ranked section.
Unpredictable

Tofu1222 wrote:

Really hope to see this map back to ranked. I think it's quite fit for ranked section.
FAMoss

Unpredictable wrote:

Tofu1222 wrote:

Really hope to see this map back to ranked. I think it's quite fit for ranked section.
FelixSpade

Tofu1222 wrote:

Really hope to see this map back to ranked. I think it's quite fit for ranked section.
DDMythical
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DDMythical
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Garalulu
Back
Last discussion from 1 month ago, seems we got enough time for reaching an agreement so let's do this!
DDMythical
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eyes
Fontes

02:32:205 - 02:24:525 - shouldn't here be some Kick hitsound for snare emphasize? example: 02:28:365 - same for last diff, didn't check others

I have problem with your priorities. Some 1/8 sounds (let's call them "woobs") are mapped as triple LN and some are mapped as 1/8 rolls, main difference is intense and pitch of woobs. Don't you think it's way too different ways to represent such similar sounds?

I'm pretty sure you can make it more clear and systematic so it doesn't look random.
For example 02:38:925 - and 02:46:605 - are literally the same sounds but mapped differently.

My suggestion:
When kiai passes, make all long woobs as 1/8 rolls. For example:
02:23:565 - this should be a roll, but 02:25:485 - these are fine as triple LNs because of often pitch changing
02:29:325 - this is also good for roll
etc. I hope you got my point

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SV

I believe 02:13:965 (133965|2,133965|3,134025|0,134085|1,134145|2) - and 02:14:205 (134205|1,134205|0) - are pretty similar (they are kinda two halfs of one sound). But the SV power difference is so big that it makes it look like these are pretty different sound when they are not.

My suggestion:
02:13:965 - nerf this SV to maybe 1.5x>0.5x or something like that so it doesn't stand out so much



I checked only second half of the map so you might want to apply it for the first half as well
riunosk
emotional drift

00:40:365 - tbh i'd prefer if the stream pattern was continued here (same goes for the others, if any)
01:36:165 - why not add note at col 3 for the sound
01:36:525 (96525|2) - i think it's better to follow the sound only rather than vocal
01:44:205 (104205|3,104445|1,104685|1) - i'm not really sure what these are following
02:14:505 - hey you did continue the stream here

yeah this is definitely rank material
Topic Starter
Dreamwalker
DD lmao

Big thanks to lulu again

Will ask fontes for quick check but I guess those stuffs are already discussed and have lower chance of being fixed.

riunosk wrote:

emotional drift

00:40:365 - tbh i'd prefer if the stream pattern was continued here (same goes for the others, if any)

Nope. For different emphasis between kiai 1 and 2, as you already know.

01:36:165 - why not add note at col 3 for the sound

I followed pitch with strong sounds that are noticable with 100% speed.

01:36:525 (96525|2) - i think it's better to follow the sound only rather than vocal

It's not for vocal, definitely.

01:44:205 (104205|3,104445|1,104685|1) - i'm not really sure what these are following

Same with above, pitch, but with a bit of hand balance.

02:14:505 - hey you did continue the stream here

yes

yeah this is definitely rank material

some might not think that way, i'm just trying to respect their opinions
thanks for stoping by
Topic Starter
Dreamwalker
Okay, sorry for being a bit late. Replying by myself based on what Fontes said before.

eyes wrote:

Fontes

02:32:205 - 02:24:525 - shouldn't here be some Kick hitsound for snare emphasize? example: 02:28:365 - same for last diff, didn't check others

This was intentional in order to emphasize 02:24:765 - . Also that sound is snare focused, not kick.

I have problem with your priorities. Some 1/8 sounds (let's call them "woobs") are mapped as triple LN and some are mapped as 1/8 rolls, main difference is intense and pitch of woobs. Don't you think it's way too different ways to represent such similar sounds?

I'm pretty sure you can make it more clear and systematic so it doesn't look random.
For example 02:38:925 - and 02:46:605 - are literally the same sounds but mapped differently.

So basically it's like woobs wubs weebs or whatever and the structure is 1/8 streem with stutter -> slowjam LN.
However, that first triple LN is, for emphasis of a new section starting, which is expressed with different SVs.


My suggestion:
When kiai passes, make all long woobs as 1/8 rolls. For example:
02:23:565 - this should be a roll, but 02:25:485 - these are fine as triple LNs because of often pitch changing
02:29:325 - this is also good for roll
etc. I hope you got my point

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SV

I believe 02:13:965 (133965|2,133965|3,134025|0,134085|1,134145|2) - and 02:14:205 (134205|1,134205|0) - are pretty similar (they are kinda two halfs of one sound). But the SV power difference is so big that it makes it look like these are pretty different sound when they are not.

My suggestion:
02:13:965 - nerf this SV to maybe 1.5x>0.5x or something like that so it doesn't stand out so much

Well, they are still different sounds and somehow played okay, so I believe it'll be okay. Also slowjam isn't that weak comparing with stutters.

I checked only second half of the map so you might want to apply it for the first half as well
Thanks for stopping by.
Kawawa
we considered it for a long time and It seems concluded.
checked all once again. ok! move on now!

+ not popped after bubble status. since nothing updated. just saying in case.
DDMythical
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-mint-

DDMythical wrote:

change the denser js bursts into one hand trills LOL
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