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Let's talk about Loved.

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Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
my opinion is relevant i swear i totally didn't come here cause i saw eph bitch on twitter


it would seem like a very easy idea to let the community decide which maps are loved or not through going to a qualification state (see what i did there) during where a map is open for play and after playing, people have to vote if they liked it or not (and not some arbitrary 1-10 scale that nobody will know how to use right) and if the map has a good enough positive/negative ratio, it gets loved.

seems like the most painless way to do things that gathers the biggest amount of data from players

someone fucking prevent me from entering these forums i keep giving my opinion on a game i have not touched in 2 years
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
i'd only support a voting thing if there's something like a suggest cool maps to be put up for a voting instead of ephemeral randomly hitting up all the places in order to get a list of maps that have a lot of favourites

wasn't there someone volunteering to oversee a voting list like this anyways

if you have like a criteria that goes among the lines of
mapper or map should be graved for X or visibly abandoned
vastly higher favourite count for this thing
and someone to do like the shitty work involved with that sort of thing

i think that could work

given that i know how the numberrunning on kd requirements went down halving the thing seems pretty agreeable, though i doubt that the favourite thing lowering the kd requirement is going to be all that clear for everyone unless you include a fucking calculator in some very obvious place and adjust secretary-chon's worst nightmares accordingly if you do that
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Toy's mentioned on twitter that he'd like to help out, so I figure he'd be a good starting block.
Asaiga
848 posts
Joined July 2013
Asaiga
I don't mean to be irrelevent but does it take really that long to get a map loved? I filled the form and sent a confirmation pm to Ephemeral on 18th March and nothing happened since :/
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
The system we had in the past was very rudimentary and prone to missing people. I sorted out a case earlier today where someone had been missed for nearly three months. Toss me a PM if you're concerned and I'll look into it.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.

Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.

Everybody wins.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked

and approved maps are just that approved via a process
Izzz
265 posts
Joined July 2015
Izzz
hi am really late
im in the minority but i honestly don't like the concept of a higher favorite barrier because it limits many of the most creative maps there are. You could make an entirely new section if you really had to, similar to loved except the maps would be hand-selected with the goal being to expose/give leaderboards to maps that lack the popularity to make it to loved as you proposed it.

if you do bring back voting, please try to keep each batch of maps fairly similar in qualities and favorites. Then you can tell for sure if the selected maps truly are what people'd prefer in loved; as it was, a good map being put in a bad batch could ruin its chances of being voted in. Maybe have a theme for each round, like maps around a certain amount of favorites, jump/stream practice maps, meta-bending maps, etc.

also, have you considered putting all unranked maps used in world cups into loved? they've certainly proved their quality, and probably deserve a leaderboard, don't you think?
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane

Ephemeral wrote:

Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

ah yes the "we used to do this back in 2009" new idea

i don't mind it coming back really
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,936 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral

Okorin wrote:

so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked

and approved maps are just that approved via a process
Guess we'll need to provision for them in the RC, yeah. Another topic entirely I think. Failing that, we can just also make special exceptions for Marathon maps.
Anemic Witch
176 posts
Joined October 2015
Anemic Witch

Ephemeral wrote:

What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?

This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?

At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?

I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.

There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.
I don't see issue here because if mapper had posted his map on the forums it already belongs to the community in some way. If community loves map and wants to see a leaderboard on specific mapset, mapper is not obliged to actively participate in this process.
Alem
44 posts
Joined November 2015
Alem

Ephemeral wrote:

Time to tidy this up, I think.

The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).

It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.

I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.
When Rezoons Jump training maps then?
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology
Alright, I read the whole thread and I'm ready to put my two cents in.

First, we need to clearly define "What is Loved supposed to accomplish" because surely we don't have this whole category to be cute, right?

Ephemeral wrote:

Over the years, a common complaint with the ranking cycle has been that it is fairly restricted for most people [...] especially if it tailors to a distinctive audience, or seeks to attempt gameplay paradigms that are not allowed by the current Ranking Criteria.
So we define "Loved" as attempting to highlight and immortalize maps that deserve attention or are cult classics, but explicitly do not and will not fit the criteria to be ranked. So, what's the best way to accomplish this task while avoiding pitfalls, explits, and controversy such as:
  1. The creator of the map can easily manipulate the system to glorify themselves at the expense of the goal of the system.
  2. Modders have a very controversial extra ability to impact the process.
  3. Too many maps enter the Loved category too quickly.
  4. osu!standard gets almost all of the slots because it's got the lions share of players.
  5. The qualifier has multiple requirements that may not all be met, and are balanced together in a manner that attracts controversy in terms of unfair weighting between requirements.
Here's my suggestion for the Loved system that I think resolves all of these issues: Maps become qualified for Loved once they become a certain age (I suggest one year old) without being rankable, and have a certain amount of total plays (I suggest somewhere between 25,000 - 100,000) among a certain amount of unique players (I suggest 2,500). Lower standards can be applied to game modes other than standard.


Some commentary on what others have said in this thread:

burntcedar13 wrote:

we're involving sp because it's actually worthless otherwise [...] the loved section is supposed to be about the community (which is mostly players), not mappers.
Couldn't agree more. That seems to be the case as to why kudosu is involved - because the staff have failed to incentivize modding properly, so the reward for modding is being shoehorned into this system, to the system's explicit detriment and abuse.

melloe wrote:

[the modders] make the maps for you to play and they know more about mapping than the community
Do they know more about fun than the community, or do they know more about rules?

A severe dunking wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.

chainpullz wrote:

The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved.
Why are the people who focus on making something rankable whether it is fun or not getting an undue say on literally the exact opposite type of mapping category?
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
  1. We will regularly be adding maps based on community votes.
with 100 SP being thrown by the mapper into their own map, its not relevant for now
xLolicore-
636 posts
Joined June 2014
xLolicore-
Is it in effect yet?
sxy62146214
227 posts
Joined May 2016
sxy62146214
Well actually.
I think have a standard on SP is quite a bad idea.Since shooting & earning stars are quite easy.
Nowdays,mappers who have 100+ kds aviliable is very common.So for some reason,it's teribbly easy to push a low-quality map to Loved state.(If they want)
The old voting system is a littke better but still bad.Because it's BN choose the maps which can be voted.There're some BNs' personal tastes.
And now fav effects SP? wtf.

I agree with Monstrata for his Loved-Score system.And I had a new idea called "Loved Switch" to solve the inactive-mappers problem.

1.Loved Switch is a switch to control whether this map can be loved or not.It is controlled by mappers.It's default closed when the map is in WIP/Pending while it's default open when the map is Graveyard.Of course,Mappers should be able to open/close the switch if they want.
2.20 Loved points per fav and 5 Loved points per SP.
3.fav can't effect SP.
4.The basic points is 700 and it should be added based upon the diffs mapsets have.
***100 points added per Std diff
***50 points added per Taiko/Mania diff
***20 points added per CtB diff.
For example,if a mapset has 7 Std diffs and 3 CtB diffs,it can't be loved unless it reached (700+7*100+20*3)=1460 Loved points.
5.Loved is updated by machine,not nomiators.(Every 10/15 days)

There must be lots of mistakes in my opinion.Hope it's helpful /w\

Btw,I think the new system Ephemeral will be worse.First,it will make Rank more easily because fav effects SP.And because of the 50SP,send a map to loved state will be easier.
For high-level mappers,they have more than 100 fans.
AshbeII
88 posts
Joined October 2015
AshbeII
most loved maps only have 1 diff tho
Scarlet Evans
345 posts
Joined August 2014
Scarlet Evans
What about maps, where mapper is unable to do anything in this matter, for example because he's banned?
There are known and loved by people maps like this one:

JerryC - Canon Rock

Many people really hoped for this mapset to become loved, but then criteria changed and as the maps were being made Loved by staff at the beginning, then now mappers must fill in a form... which simply kills of maps like this one :cry:

I still hope that something can happen in this matter and maps like this one can become Loved.
Raveille
787 posts
Joined February 2012
Raveille

Ephemeral wrote:

Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.

Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.

Everybody wins.
This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.

There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.

Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh
Scarlet Evans
345 posts
Joined August 2014
Scarlet Evans

Raveille wrote:

This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.

There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.

Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.

Arzenvald wrote:

^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh
It's still easy to evade, if you have two mappers with many stars and similar objectives. They simply can exchange stars, i.e. boost each other's mapset with own stars, giving exactly the same result as if they were to use them for their own maps.

Which means that it won't really affect these mappers, but the people without connections, who can have problem to get the stars in the first place, so they kind of more depend on community and more players (which is good?). With this, they will have it even harder, as they won't be able to use their own stars.

So, I think that doing this wouldn't change much, aside of:
  1. making even bigger discrepancy between average mapper and the ones, who can throw high number of stars on their maps,
  2. giving a birth to the Black Stars Market :P
sxy62146214
227 posts
Joined May 2016
sxy62146214

rakuenslove wrote:

most loved maps only have 1 diff tho
And my idea is unfair for general.
what about cosidering drain time?
Loved points = (700+100*Std-diffs+50*Taiko-diffs+50*Mania-diffs+20*CtB-diffs)*(The longest drain time in mapset/180)
:thinking:
Fontes
110 posts
Joined August 2016
Fontes
The current Loved system hav two key issues.

1. Kudosu does not reflect the whole opinion.

It does not make sense to decide to vote with kudosu in the first place.
becuz kudosu can only be gained by person who did modding, so people who just enjoy playing only
cannot exercise much influence.
cuz the 100 kudosu condition is main requirement, this system is their own league; who do mapping or modding.


2. With Kudosu, multiple voting is possible.

Do you think it makes sense that when one chooses a member of the parliament, one person exercises several votes?
This is a serious problem that contradicts the purpose of 'Loved'.



First of all, we need to make sure the concept of 'Loved' clear.

I agree with CXu's opinion to some extent. 'Loved' is a completely different category from 'Rank',It is a map that has been steadily loved by people.
This is a way of gathering a large number of purely subjective opinions rather than objective ones, it has nothing to do with quality and playability,
cuz this is not rank category. that was the first way of Loved.
But before the voting system changed, actually the Loved maps are good in quality and popularity.
The favorite number and quality of the old loved maps and the current red votes disprove it.



By the way, The reason people say when they make a map like 'aim for Rank' or 'aim for Loved',
Becuz Rank and Loved map has promotional effect.

How would ordinary players find maps on OSU homepage?
They will search their favorite songs or look at the front page of the main category. It is typically Loved and Rank.
Most mappers will want to show off their map to others. it is natural,


But as a player,personally I don want to see the maps just made with short term in loved besides, I hate it if it's a map that people do not love.
Anyway to sum up, the way the map is chosen, not the problem of the map itself, is completely wrong.



If you want to continue the current way, Osu hav to make one more category like'Under Rank.'
similiar with Major and Minor league in sports.
Certainly, this does not fit the name 'Loved'.




so, Remedy of present Loved in my opinion,

first, Kudosu must be removed from the map selection criteria to fairly reflect the views of everyone.
and I think it is better to raise the Favorite upper limit to at least 100.

And with this, first questionnaire type is ideal.

Above all, current Loved does not have a manager to supervise the selection of the map unlike the Rank like BN and QAT.
So more than one manager is essential i think.




I hope the current Loved status will be better, and a hidden masterpiece that many people love wil come as legend.

Nonetheless, the current system is so far from being clear about the concept.
vanessahime
3 posts
Joined February 2017
vanessahime
w..what...
FlipSide82
FlipSide82
idk XD"
Ryzen_old_1
Ryzen_old_1

Raveille wrote:

A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.

Another Lie wrote:

ok Raveille triggers me. Sorry for that i already do that for beethoven
[ Ari Knight ]
237 posts
Joined March 2016
[ Ari Knight ]
just my thoughts...

-voting by favorites might be good idea (since if using kudosu that just only who have been modding can do that)
-about SP, 50 is fairly enough
-maybe 100+ fav will take the criteria
-and SV map? playable only plz...

please don't blame me if i got wrong XD
Miutrex
61 posts
Joined July 2016
Miutrex
WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,957 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru

Miutrex wrote:

WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
Don't caps. Moreover, look at the time it got Loved, during the old system, that's why it got ranked. Now stop yelling please.
7ambda
2,560 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda

Miutrex wrote:

I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
You're right, you don't.
CircusGalop
121 posts
Joined June 2015
CircusGalop
How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
Last edited by CircusGalop , edited 1 time in total.
Mipha-
266 posts
Joined January 2015
Mipha-

CircusGalop wrote:

How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
I could agree with this, since user rating system hasn't been in its upmost uses after all, but there's only one thing.

Since what I see is that the user rating system is highly subjective, the beatmapper and the players can easily give 10/10 on each of the said category map. Which is pretty unfortunate, that rating system won't give out their honest rating as you might think it is - since it is easily dominated by the propaganda of the given map..... and that could be very risky.

Also agreed to the previous suggestions which are to limit giving SP, because it's already done by someone to purposely making the map "Loved" without any given lookout and further ignored mods. Shooting your hard-earned 100 stars right off the bat is just straight up dumb, I hate to say that. Keeping high favourites are great as well.
CircusGalop
121 posts
Joined June 2015
CircusGalop
I realized that the additional conditions are needed like this.
Required raters : at least 100
How long keep those conditions : at least 2 weeks after last update

I thought as follows.
If many raters vote, manipulation of average User Rating will be difficult.
The number of favorites is dominated by popularity, but it does not reflect how many people are dissatisfied with this map.
If the average rating is not enough to make something a loved map, the mapper can try to improve rating by changing to WIP and improving the map.

Of course, user ratings might not reflect the map quality. But, this allows us to filter out the maps which a lot of people don't like and to give feedback to the mapper in a different way. I would like to hear more opinions about this.
h3oCharles
1,488 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
Akali's (submitted by Sugoi-_-Desu) Knife Party - Centipede is the perfect example against this
DDMythical
DDMythical
Every map that meets their respective gamemodes' kudosu/favourite mark should be put into a pool. Then the community votes on X (10%) of these maps to be loved every month or so. The maps that don't make it have to get 30% higher kudosu/favourites to be able to enter the pool next month.

For hybrid sets; just account the most popular gamemode. For example if a set has 4 mania diffs and 1 standard diff. it will require the standard's limit of kudosu/favourites.

This stops people from putting 100 kds and getting randoms to favourite their map and then getting it loved no questions asked. The community then has to agree that the map is good. the 30% increase each time (100, 130, 169) will stop mappers from repeatedly putting a mapset into the pool when nobody wants leaderboards on it.

however long this mapset has been around for is irrelevant.
Last edited by DDMythical , edited 1 time in total.
Reazen
213 posts
Joined August 2013
Reazen
I think "loved" is not the place where you should add maps regularly. Maps that community truly love is not something that you can add every month by votes I think.. It's just a popularity contest, who made more interesting map with unranked patterns, weird spacing etc. Loved should be something more "holy" (?)
Maps that had great impact on community over YEARS, not week/month. Maps like that old nightcore jump practice that everyone played, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/48738 (oh man this is genius). You can actually see though download count (not in every case but still) in current loved section what is truly loved, everything below 100k should be just removed. I think there should be at least 1-2 year in graveyard/pending to qualify for loved.. It doesn't matter if map gets attention for month or two, if it's forgotten over year it just means it doesn't really have to be in loved. And why loved should be something that is not flexible. What about some voting what should not be in loved? It's not like players lose pp from removing maps. Who needs many maps in loved anyway, true "loved" map is not something that appears every day/week. To sum up, there should be at least two ways to get loved. Using community votes for really old maps and download count for new ones.
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,957 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru

Reazen wrote:

everything below 100k should be just removed.
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
CheezyDawg
31 posts
Joined June 2017
CheezyDawg
end loved plz i need more pp
Reazen
213 posts
Joined August 2013
Reazen

Pachiru wrote:

Reazen wrote:

everything below 100k should be just removed.
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
Then how these high SR maps still have more dl count ?? That's what loved is about ppl plays these maps even if it does not give them pp.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
Yo !
I didn't really read each post of this thread, and i think i'm not the only person who asked for this.
Is/will it be possible to have a mapset which is going for Ranked section, but in this mapset there's only a diff which goes for Loved section, because the diff itself is technically unrankable ? (all tag4 maps that were ranked before are now in Loved section, but the other diffs are in Ranked section)

I can give you an example if you don't see what i mean.
"I'm planning to make a full mapset on a song in standard mode, and i want to add a TAG4 diff but not as external diff. It is part of the mapset but the scores on it don't give pp, so it is for loved section"
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