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Let's talk about Loved.

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Ovoui

Eraser wrote:

You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.

I do not agree about this, if you're an unknown mapper, love section is a great way to promote your work.

The use of kudosu was interesting because it forced you to mod a lot to have your beatmap loved. I think it's fair because you get rewarded for helping the beatmapping community.

(encouraging modding is great thing tho).
jesse1412

Ovoui wrote:

Eraser wrote:

You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.

I do not agree about this, if you're an unknown mapper, love section is a great way to promote your work.

The use of kudosu was interesting because it forced you to mod a lot to have your beatmap loved. I think it's fair because you get rewarded for helping the beatmapping community.

(encouraging modding is great thing tho).
If you're unknown then your maps aren't loved and they need to gtfo being viable for the category. Such a stupid argument.

People definitely need to understand that the relationship should go: popular -> loved; not: loved -> popular

I understand that using kudos encourages modding, but that doesn't make it GOOD. If we made it so that you had to purchase retries with kudosu in game I'm sure we would see an increase in the amount of mods, but that's also the worst idea ever. Kudos need their value to come from within the system in which they are awarded (the ranking system) not from being tagged onto some other unrelated topic.
Ovoui
Making great map which deserved to be loved by the community and being unknown is compatible.

I didn't see your edit btw
jesse1412

Ovoui wrote:

Making great map which deserved to be loved by the community and being unknown is compatible.

I didn't see your edit btw
Yeah sorry, I posted before I finished thinking.
Caput Mortuum
If popularity is what you seek, then go for ranked. Loved is for maps that are loved by the community, doesn't matter good or bad, easy or hard. And the first step to be loved is to gain popularity.

Don't make loved the second and easier ranked section please. I don't want to see a regular pp jump map from an unknown mapper go there just because they can't get some bn to check on it.
-kevincela-

Yusomi wrote:



This new loved system treats favourites as if they are just freely given out. I think the cap of 100 should be increased, or a new favouriting system is introduced if this new loved system actually happens.
I definitely think this is an issue that needs to be addressed, especially if from now on having favourites on a map will play a bigger role for the loved section and both mappers and players will be encouraged to do so. I usually rarely favourite maps, and I'm already at 81 favs, considering the enourmous amount of maps which are currently submitted 100 is definitely way too low and I can see it being a problem in the long run for the loved section.
Endaris

Ephemeral wrote:

Our thoughts in mind when making Loved were not to introduce a listing that contains high-skill, high-acclaim maps that were otherwise unsuitable for ranking, but rather to provide an alternate method for mappers with content that was widely appreciated regardless of what difficulty level or paradigm it was made under.

I'm not sure that pursuing a return to the same curated voting that started off Loved is particularly helpful - though if there is such a high demand for curated content in that regard, we could look at setting up something else to achieve the same end.
Based on this and the current state of maps in the loved section I would like to ask everyone advocating changes to the current system, especially those that are aiming to raise the map quality in the section by one way or the other:

1. Favorites are already instrumentalised for loving maps now. They are given out with the only incentive that a map can get loved although it may not be one of your favourite map. Do you really want to completely invalidate the meaning favorites had in the last 10 years of osu! by inflating the requirement like that?

2. Assuming the loved maps were now required to be unrankable by design as proposed by Shiirn:
What is supposed to happen to the maps in loved that don't fulfill that requirement? Unlove, graveyard? Keep them? Both options are bullshit so you would better come up with a different one that doesn't make the people who put in effort to get their map loved feel betrayed.
Seijiro
Well.. there are a lot of posts and I wanted to reply to all, more or less, but rip.

The post I agree the most with is Shiirn's: the Loved section is treated as a side-ranking category, when for various reasons perfectly rankable maps go for loved instead. This is damn lame.

The proposal in the OP is quite interesting too, but not wide enough. Let me explain why...

As the proposal is set now, we have two sides (one from modders, one from players) that need to be raised to a certain value to make the map Loved.
This is good and I like it, because it means that a more varied part of the community agrees on a certain map.
What I not agree with is the fact that one mapper can simply shot many stars on it or the fact that many players can totally outclass modders and get the SP down to 25 only (which is really really low)

My counter-proposal for this would be to make the first SP requirement to be 75SP and decrease it to 50 using the formula provided in the op, this way we are sure modders are not completely wiped out by players.
On the other hand, make it so that every modder can shot at most 10 or 15 stars as someone already suggested. This way we can avoid a single modder to hold the power.
These are simply fixes to make things return to the concept that the COMMUNITY should love the map, and not a few people (I truly laughed at idke's proposal tbh)
(1000 favourites = insta Loved status seems totally fine, since that's quite a big portion of people imo)

The other thing I would like to see fixed is what maps actually get loved.
As Shiirn said, any map meeting the requirements passes. The solution for this is simply: either make the QAT, or maybe even the Spotlights team, take a look at the maps meeting the requirements and judge whether they are unrankable or not, because making perfectly rankable maps pass to the Loved category looks totally wrong here.


Last thing is about the favourites system mentioned just above this post: it should change if favourites start being an important part of the Loved processing.



Make the Loved category be truly for loved maps please, not for lazy mappers not being able to find BNs (no, more BNs is not the solution lol)
Mismagius

Ephemeral wrote:

What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?

This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?

At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?

I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.

There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.
Why exactly wouldn't they want their maps to be loved? Take a look at Charles' skeleton map for example, I'm pretty sure he doesn't mind having that map loved even though he drifted away from the community and game itself. The point of loved (or at least as it was suggested by the community before the category existed) was to give the old, classic graved maps that couldn't be ranked in any way get finally the place they deserved (biggest examples would be Groundhog and deltaMAX, and to be honest I don't think Takuma would've been able to submit it for loved as he's been away for quite some time). It feels a bit unfair that maps like Moskau and Konbini can't get loved because of 1. the current requirements; 2. because their respective mappers are inactive, even though the maps were exactly the reason why the section was created in the first place.

About the other points, I believe jesse and Shiirn already said everything I had to say. It's sad to currently see perfectly rankable maps with 20 pages of mods get loved because "the mapper got tired of looking for mods" or the fact that some mappers are giving 50+ SP to their own maps so they get loved easily (ALIEN, Another Lie's map). If you want kudosu to be relevant, then go do something with ModdingV2 or actually make Kudosu/Mapper Ranking relevant again, bring some rewards to people who mod, I don't know, man, just don't ruin a section because kudosu isn't as useful as it could be.
Weber
I agree with the points based system. It will enable both popular graveyarded maps from beatmappers that have left to become loved, as well as those willing to contribute a massive amount to the modding community in order to give their own maps a leaderboard. It's basically a win-win.
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
It would seem that there is a big push for Loved to return to limited-criteria curated content - namely that it includes only maps that are both wildly popular, and are limited in some way or another from being ranked normally.

I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place. Perhaps limiting the total SP contribution from one person is part of this. Being able to add maps to Loved was kind of the prevailing reward planned for kudosu, at least in the short term, so removing that would require it to be replaced with something else entirely.
chainpullz

Ephemeral wrote:

the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.
You had me when you said mapping community but lost me when you said modding community. The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved. As others have pointed out a lot of the more acclaimed mappers don't even mod much to begin with and hence do not get any benefit from SP being part of the system.
Topic Starter
Ephemeral

chainpullz wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.
You had me when you said mapping community but lost me when you said modding community. The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved. As others have pointed out a lot of the more acclaimed mappers don't even mod much to begin with and hence do not get any benefit from SP being part of the system.
As mentioned earlier (and in the OP), the crystallization of their time investment (SP) means very little for actually influencing the ranking cycle at the moment. Beyond preparing maps for Ranked itself, they receive very little in the way of reward for essentially providing the rest of the community with content to enjoy.
Xinnoh
if want to have both sp and curated sets going in loved, then have like, 5 slots in a vote for curated and 5 slots for sp/fav maps, then people vote
eg

1. curated old map
2. curated 10* map
3. curated map etc
4. curated map
5. curated map
6. +100 sp evening sv map
7. +100 sp song compilation
8. +100 sp map
9. +100 sp map
10. +100 sp map
community votes on what they want from there. old mappers and sp shooters both get loved from this. alternately could just have it so curated and sp sets are on different voting lists so they don't compete with each other
Weber
i dont really agree with the concept of dumping a whole lot of kds onto a set for it to be eligible just for the voting process, just for a not-at-all-guaranteed chance to get your set loved

what if your map fails the vote? 100sp down the toilet?
chainpullz

Ephemeral wrote:

As mentioned earlier (and in the OP), the crystallization of their time investment (SP) means very little for actually influencing the ranking cycle at the moment.
Yes, and that is an issue. With the ranked category. The core of the current issue with the loved category is that we are letting major issues with the ranked category spill into the loved category. There needs to be a line drawn and that is what seems to be getting lost in all this fixation about points/voting.

Due to the more objective nature of the ranked category and the need for strict rules/guidelines there are maps that are not rankable because they would set bad precedents that would lead to an overall decrease in map quality (not that I think too highly of the current cut/tv size mapping meta at the moment). Though sad because some masterpieces are hence unrankable, this is a completely necessary thing to do and is not really a problem with the ranking system. The loved category exists to provide a home for these maps.

It also has the opportunity to provide a home for maps that are loved by the community but were never pushed forward for ranking, perhaps because the original mapper is long gone, or because the mapper would rather let the map grave than make a spread for it.

While it should certainly be acceptable for a mapper to aim for loved with a map of the former type, the mapper should have no say in whether a map of the latter type gets loved otherwise loved and ranked will overlap in undesirable ways.
Seni

chainpullz wrote:

Due to the more objective nature of the ranked category and the need for strict rules/guidelines
ha that's a funny joke good one
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Okay, we pulled up some stats and spoke for a bit based on the feedback people have given us here, and we've come up with the following thresholds per gamemode based on the statistics of gamemode distribution among players (for reference, it is 77% osu!, 16% osu!mania, 4% osu!catch and 3% osu!taiko from users active within the past month):

Entering a map into Loved will cost 50SP across all modes.

Entering a map into Loved will also require the following favorites per dominant gamemode (where the dominant gamemode is the set with the highest requirements below):

osu!: 100
osu!taiko: 10
osu!catch: 10
osu!mania: 30

The SP requirement will be reduced by 1 every X favorites above the base favourites (down to a minimum of 25SP):

osu!: 16
osu!taiko: 2
osu!catch: 2
osu!mania: 4

This should be fair and representative of general population across all gamemodes, and at the very least, fairer than the current requirements for maps that are not osu!. Multimode mapsets may be a bit of a pain, but we'll see how they go.

We will also conduct voting for legacy beatmaps with high favourite count where the mapper may no longer be available to submit the maps for Loved themselves. This may be tied into Spotlights in the form of a "vintage Spotlight" occurring every few months or on certain dates of the year, complete with concurrent voting.

While I understand that keeping Loved exclusive is a concern for some users, it is important to note that we did not ever intend for it to be shrouded in the airs of exclusivity - the idea was to create an open category as an alternative means for mappers to get their work recognized and playable, for those who produce content that is not designed to fit within the Ranking Criteria. An avenue for curated content exists in the Spotlights - and we can certainly begin investing more resources and rewards into having maps featured by the Spotlights going forward.
Shiirn
Exclusivity is not necessarily the issue people take with it - it's the questionable nature of whether something belongs in the Loved category. Adding some curation requirements does not make it "exclusive", it simply makes the entire category more respectable. Be it either through voting, a few people "checking" maps, or some other step that involves actually looking at the map, something should be done to make sure that every Loved map is "Special" in some way. Otherwise, it's just a dumping ground for mappers that can't get the map ranked normally, popular songs with bad maps, or a mapper begging for favorites and dumping SP. Even with the new proposal.

The change you propose is nice and all, and backed by statistics, but the outliers that are just "normal maps" really taint the barrel. I'm sure everyone's aware of the good old rotten apple analogy.

When people look through the Loved category, they want to see uniqueness. Specialness. That hard-to-summarize quality that separates these maps from the peer-reviewed, highly specialized content control system the Ranked category has. Many maps in the section have this. But nowhere near "Most" of them.

They don't want to see otherwise normal maps like entire normal sets ("giving up on ranking") or four-minute regular maps that would just be a minor pain to make lower difficulties for ("lazy") or the like. They also don't really want to see actually crappy maps. (That crystallized set really stands out as being kind of full of shit, no hitsounding, no effort bullshit)

I understand that this is a much more major change than tweaking the thresholds of SP and Favorites, so I'm not surprised it was kind of politely pushed to the side, but it'd be nice to hear this kind of issue was being considered.
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
It is being considered, and I've said repeatedly that the demand for curated content (ie: exactly what you're asking for in regards to content that "belongs" in the communal expectations that the Loved category currently carries) is better undertaken elsewhere or in different domains rather than forcing the issue in the Loved category.

For example, Loved being open allows for maps that aren't that great to get in it. Curated content based on Loved maps (ie: the proposed "Vintage" spotlights) fulfills the need to have a way of marking or denoting truly excellent content within the category without closing it out to everyone else.
Shiirn
Adding another category-within-a-category seems kind of silly.

It'd just be another layer for the actually-aiming-to-have-interesting-maps-get-a-scoreboard-and-played maps to pass, except it'd have an even more esoteric set of entry requirements. People wouldn't want to go for Loved just to get Vintage or whatever due to the added level of risk. Loved would still be a dumping ground.

Right now there are four separate types of maps in the Loved category:
  1. 1. Maps that break some form of modern rule of rankability. Be it aesthetics, esoteric concept/theme, or outright breaking the rules for the sake of the song. This is what people look for.
  2. 2. Ridiculously high-difficulty maps under 5 minutes that are otherwise perfectly rankable. Can include songs that genuinely struggle to have lower difficulties, such as What The Cat.
  3. 3. Maps that are "dump sets", maps that are incomplete, low-effort, or otherwise just don't have the polish or focus necessary to get ranked. But totally could.
  4. 4. Maps that are completely normal but are either Loved because the mapper has given up on Ranking, or because it's a normal map that didn't reach the 5 minute drain time and the mapper can't be assed to fill the rest. The "effort to get loved" is less than the "effort to extend >5min or fill with other difficulties"
What do we want to see in Loved?
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
It's not a real "category" perse (referring to Vintage), but rather a way of selecting the better maps in the category. Spotlights as a whole will be much more prevalent in osu! once lazer is complete, and it seems as if a good way to give them that initial traction would be to move the expectations for curated content away from Loved as a whole category, and into them instead.
Shiirn
Alright, let's add this to the list of "Stuff that'll be more relevant once lazer is complete" and call it a day, then.
Naimae
I hope I'm not too late, but I'll dump everything on my mind.

I don't see why a map being ranked and a map being Loved have to be mutually exclusive. Aren't there plenty of maps out there already that are not only loved, but also are ranked? I'm probably projecting, but I think something like Freedom Dive should be Loved, even though its already ranked. It has 1000+ favorites, too. But for those Loved maps that can't be ranked, the warning with the "This Loved map will not give pp" can just flash before you play the map.

I agree with what several others have already said, including that the Loved category should be full of things that are genuinely loved, like a priceless treasure. That said, there could be two ways that a map can be Loved:

1. A point-based system, where a favorite counts as two points and a kudosu counts as one point. Additionally, any amount of kudosu from each user only counts once, only allowing anyone to contribute a maximum of three points to the map. I understand the important of kudosu, but allowing kudosu to have too much influence over whether a map enters Loved or not could be easily abused. Then, a map has to reach at least 250 points or so to be Loved.

2. A voting system, probably 2-4 times every year, allowing the community to put in any beatmap for entry and to vote on them. The primary purpose of this is to get loved older beatmaps that have little/no favorites and beatmaps with inactive creators to become Loved, if the community wants it.

There may be other ways that I'm not really thinking of, but any method of getting a beatmap into the Loved category should have a significant part of the community play a large role in determining the result and not by any small group of users.

That said, maybe there can also be a new category of beatmap, "Notable", to allow mappers who want exposure to get what they want. I'm not too confident about how this would work, but you could probably just rename the current Loved category to this and it'd be okay for a while. I think this would work because I am of the belief that the only reason Loved is a goal for mappers who want exposure is because its an entirely different category which much fewer maps than the Ranked & Approved category, allowing their work to stand out more against the incredible amount of ranked maps present. My belief could be entirely wrong, though.
ErunamoJAZZ
Hi

Well.. even if I dont have "morality" to talk about (because I have a map in loved just because it was unranked many time ago and I was really tired of remapping), I wanna say my opinion:
The issue of perfectly rankable sets in loved section is responsibility of BNG, in the sense that they can push it to the ranking section yet!
As Eph said, loved is a good place to get some visibility right now.


I'm agree with that 30 favs is very low, and 75 favs feels more "relevant" for a loved map.
But I'm not agree with ignore SP, I think that limiting the amount of stars for person will avoid the abuse.
winnerspiros
Just lower the criteria if people think they are too high and bring voting back for old favorite maps that the creator has not intentions to update.This worked in the past and I don't see any problem using this method again. The problem is happening due to how ineffective the ranking system is right now but this will supposedly change when the new modding system goes live.

Also I don't see how 50SP + 100fav or 25SP +500fav is better than the current system.
Sidetail
So is this 100fav / 50sp in effect now? What about maps that already had reached old loved map criteria like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/376203 for months ?

Also if this is in fact in effect, would be nice if this was announced since I only knew this by word of mouth.

Sorry in advance if this was cleared / ask before, I just could not find the answer.
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
It isn't in effect. We'll announce any changes we make to the system when/if we make them.
Pachiru
In my opinion, the first system, where people could vote for the next Loved maps was the best, I mean it had more sense than nowadays Loved maps.
I already received some message from my friends that was asking me if I could shoot some kudos and a fav on their maps. But to me this system doesn't create a Loved map, the true Loved maps was the first ones that got Loved.

That's just my point of view, maybe it got stopped because the people that manage this was probably busy, and I can understand it. (I'm sorry if the reason why the system changed is different from what I'm saying, to be honest, I didn't read the text explaining why the Loved system changed.)

Have a good day everyone :)
Ovoui
The old voting system was bad because maps were chosen by the staff imo.

Maybe be a vote were people are free to submit their maps could be a good alternative idk.
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
The maps weren't chosen by the staff, actually. They were an aggregate of high favorite maps and random suggestions from a variety of "which map should be Loved" threads that were extremely popular at the time.
Ovoui
I didn't know, my bad.
Kyujuroku 96
My suggestion would be making a section for pending maps that aim to be loved so lets say BN's or high level mappers can nominate them every set amount of time. Then people vote. Its a good way to ensure quality without using sp
SnowNiNo_
well this is wat i think
i kinda agreed with Natsu's post
however, i think community votes is still necessary (preclude the maps dat doesnt rly good), and the maps required only 100 favs, and it can be nominated by anyone (consider the mappers already quit or w/e)
imo sp isnt rly necessary in loved, cuz loved maps supposed to be popular gravedyarded maps (but u can still replace favs with kds)
CXu
The thread is too long and I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, but in general, at least in my opinion the mapper should have no direct influence to if a map is loved or not. The point as I see it is that the loved section is supposed to be maps that the community loves, and then limiting one of those factors to not only be just a subset of the community (star rating), but also something the mapper themselves can directly manipulate kind of backwards. Letting the mapper have this control also makes it much easier to cop-out and "aim for loved" rather than actually going through with the ranking process. Loved shouldn't be an alternative to ranked, it should be specifically maps loved by the community. It shouldn't be a place to throw unrankable maps, or anything. Even if there is a good map using unrankable elements "aiming to get loved", the criteria for it to get there shouldn't just be "good, but unrankable", but also actually liked by a good portion of the community.

I think in general having some kind of preliminary voting for nomination, such as giving every player (or a subset if we want to go that route) a finite amount of votes on any map they love, then round up the maps with the most votes, and have a final voting round similar to what we had in the beginning could work. This would require implementing new functionality to the website or client though, as it needs to be something that's easy to do and also different from favorites, since people have been using favorites for a lot of things, and won't necessarily reflect what they love the most etc.

That's my pov anyway. I feel like the loved section right now feels more like an alternative to the ranked section where rules are much laxer, resulting in poor quality maps being loved, rather than what it truly should be; a reflection of maps the community deems good. In that sense, having maps that are already ranked in the loved section as well does make sense, if we think of it purely as a label for what the community enjoys, and not necessarily a completely different category.
laport
+1 What Cxu said, I'm all for the voting rounds.
And for voting, perhaps splitting into categories of mapping settings / (which is usually related to submit era) come to mind.
For example "2009" "2010" etc?
I'm right now wondering how an old loved map such as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/16987 could achieve the Loved status, because as far as I understand and I could be wrong, it currently won't?
Every now and then I am looking into the Loved section, and I notice certain maps made recently with far less favourites are in there while some golden oldies are still missing in my humble opinion.
Especially when you take the relativity into account, for example the map I mentioned was from a time when the community was much smaller in size and reaching 100 favourites in those days was a much bigger thing than nowadays.

Anyway, I love the initiative and I am looking very much forward on all developments of osu! in the future.
Ritzeh
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Time to tidy this up, I think.

The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).

It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.

I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.
Cyclohexane
my opinion is relevant i swear i totally didn't come here cause i saw eph bitch on twitter


it would seem like a very easy idea to let the community decide which maps are loved or not through going to a qualification state (see what i did there) during where a map is open for play and after playing, people have to vote if they liked it or not (and not some arbitrary 1-10 scale that nobody will know how to use right) and if the map has a good enough positive/negative ratio, it gets loved.

seems like the most painless way to do things that gathers the biggest amount of data from players

someone fucking prevent me from entering these forums i keep giving my opinion on a game i have not touched in 2 years
Okoratu
i'd only support a voting thing if there's something like a suggest cool maps to be put up for a voting instead of ephemeral randomly hitting up all the places in order to get a list of maps that have a lot of favourites

wasn't there someone volunteering to oversee a voting list like this anyways

if you have like a criteria that goes among the lines of
mapper or map should be graved for X or visibly abandoned
vastly higher favourite count for this thing
and someone to do like the shitty work involved with that sort of thing

i think that could work

given that i know how the numberrunning on kd requirements went down halving the thing seems pretty agreeable, though i doubt that the favourite thing lowering the kd requirement is going to be all that clear for everyone unless you include a fucking calculator in some very obvious place and adjust secretary-chon's worst nightmares accordingly if you do that
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