don't you understand dude
being different is being special
being special is good
stop killing mapper spirit
being different is being special
being special is good
stop killing mapper spirit
forum
The Chainsmokers & Coldplay - Something Just Like This
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156
even if I agree of it being different, I disagree that this is the way that it should've been done.
I was being facetious, this map is clearly an attentiongrab shitpile.
[Master]
No experience modding and terrible mapper here: I went through the map editor and it felt like everything was mapped a couple milliseconds behind the actual song, and when playing it I constantly got bad accuracy because I was trying to follow the song instead of the map
No experience modding and terrible mapper here: I went through the map editor and it felt like everything was mapped a couple milliseconds behind the actual song, and when playing it I constantly got bad accuracy because I was trying to follow the song instead of the map
it is flawed but it's like you guys are surprised fanzhen did something like this lol;
00:47:751 (1,2,3,1,2,3) -
00:50:081 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) -
00:50:081 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) -
this doesn't flow well, it feels really unnatural (to me at least)
00:36:683 (2,3) - questionable spacing
02:18:334 (1) - why isn't this snapped to 02:19:790 (1) - 's tail?
01:14:547 (6) - not sure if this is mapped to the vocals; if it is im sorry but is it necessary to skip a kick?
01:13:091 (1,2,3,4,5) - here you use the same combo, here too 01:59:693 (1,2,3,4,5) - but you use only NCs in this part (and the rest of the kiai, in fact which screws up with the HP drain) 02:18:334 (1,1,1,1,1) - why?
00:47:751 (1,2,3,1,2,3) -
00:50:081 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) -
00:50:081 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) -
this doesn't flow well, it feels really unnatural (to me at least)
00:36:683 (2,3) - questionable spacing
02:18:334 (1) - why isn't this snapped to 02:19:790 (1) - 's tail?
01:14:547 (6) - not sure if this is mapped to the vocals; if it is im sorry but is it necessary to skip a kick?
01:13:091 (1,2,3,4,5) - here you use the same combo, here too 01:59:693 (1,2,3,4,5) - but you use only NCs in this part (and the rest of the kiai, in fact which screws up with the HP drain) 02:18:334 (1,1,1,1,1) - why?
redownload, the mp3 was changed sometime in the ranking processPorschwa wrote:
[Master]
No experience modding and terrible mapper here: I went through the map editor and it felt like everything was mapped a couple milliseconds behind the actual song, and when playing it I constantly got bad accuracy because I was trying to follow the song instead of the map
Excessively undermapping a kiai is no excuse. It's not even like him to pull something like that.mvb wrote:
it is flawed but it's like you guys are surprised fanzhen did something like this lol;
#blamefanzhen20170019
anyway, throwing my 2 cents here
00:20:081 (1) - rankable imo. intuition could tell you how the slider goes
02:01:441 - I'd like to defend for fanzhen here since I enjoyed this kiai a lot. This kiai makes me recall John Cage's controvertible piece, 4'33".
First of all, music is the combination of space (pitch), time (rhythm), timbre, dynamics, texture, etc. We had to admit that the second chorus shares most of the same music elements with the first chorus, but are they absolutely same? Or in other words, why do artists bother to write songs like ABABCD (D=B+), instead of ABCD, if they are indeed same? Coming back to the song itself, the first A paved the way for the first B (chorus #1), and then A2 recurrents soon after B1, with the enhancement of beating line; later on, B2 appears, sharing the same things with B1 except for position in the whole piece. However, the position makes things different, with the approach that what paves way for B1 is different from that for B2, as stronger beating line of A2 means more concrete and intense expression of emotion for A2, and then B2, the recurrent version of B1, ought to have a stronger expression of emotion than B1.
In addition, the "lazy" mapping of the second kiai seems trying to imitate applauses, from a perceptual point of view. I appreciate how fanzhen managed to express the stronger emotion of B2 (mentioned above why) in a diametrically opposite way, by omitting many beats except for syncopated beat.
and also
01:14:547 (6) - I believe it should be snapped to 01:15:130 -
03:40:761 (3,3) - not good-looking imo
03:51:246 (5) - a bit out of expectation
4'33" lol
anyway, throwing my 2 cents here
00:20:081 (1) - rankable imo. intuition could tell you how the slider goes
02:01:441 - I'd like to defend for fanzhen here since I enjoyed this kiai a lot. This kiai makes me recall John Cage's controvertible piece, 4'33".
First of all, music is the combination of space (pitch), time (rhythm), timbre, dynamics, texture, etc. We had to admit that the second chorus shares most of the same music elements with the first chorus, but are they absolutely same? Or in other words, why do artists bother to write songs like ABABCD (D=B+), instead of ABCD, if they are indeed same? Coming back to the song itself, the first A paved the way for the first B (chorus #1), and then A2 recurrents soon after B1, with the enhancement of beating line; later on, B2 appears, sharing the same things with B1 except for position in the whole piece. However, the position makes things different, with the approach that what paves way for B1 is different from that for B2, as stronger beating line of A2 means more concrete and intense expression of emotion for A2, and then B2, the recurrent version of B1, ought to have a stronger expression of emotion than B1.
In addition, the "lazy" mapping of the second kiai seems trying to imitate applauses, from a perceptual point of view. I appreciate how fanzhen managed to express the stronger emotion of B2 (mentioned above why) in a diametrically opposite way, by omitting many beats except for syncopated beat.
and also
01:14:547 (6) - I believe it should be snapped to 01:15:130 -
03:40:761 (3,3) - not good-looking imo
03:51:246 (5) - a bit out of expectation
4'33" lol
I think you're looking at this too abstractly. The second chorus isn't obvious in denoting those subtler changes; to the common ear, both choruses sound alike. Therefore, that wouldn't be a strong justification for expressing major composition differences.pw384 wrote:
02:01:441 - I'd like to defend for fanzhen here since I enjoyed this kiai a lot. This kiai makes me recall John Cage's controvertible piece, 4'33".
First of all, music is the combination of space (pitch), time (rhythm), timbre, dynamics, texture, etc. We had to admit that the second chorus shares most of the same music elements with the first chorus, but are they absolutely same? Or in other words, why do artists bother to write songs like ABABCD (D=B+), instead of ABCD, if they are indeed same? Coming back to the song itself, the first A paved the way for the first B (chorus #1), and then A2 recurrents soon after B1, with the enhancement of beating line; later on, B2 appears, sharing the same things with B1 except for position in the whole piece. However, the position makes things different, with the approach that what paves way for B1 is different from that for B2, as stronger beating line of A2 means more concrete and intense expression of emotion for A2, and then B2, the recurrent version of B1, ought to have a stronger expression of emotion than B1.
In addition, the "lazy" mapping of the second kiai seems trying to imitate applauses, from a perceptual point of view. I appreciate how fanzhen managed to express the stronger emotion of B2 (mentioned above why) in a diametrically opposite way, by omitting many beats except for syncopated beat.
fanzhen's Insane
So a lot of things have been said, I just wanted to say something else which wasn't mentioned yet. I feel like it would be more appropriate to use 1.5x SV for the first kiai. It just feels so forced and odd from a playing prospective that the last kiai has a lower SV than the first (even if the first kiai has a lower object density)
So a lot of things have been said, I just wanted to say something else which wasn't mentioned yet. I feel like it would be more appropriate to use 1.5x SV for the first kiai. It just feels so forced and odd from a playing prospective that the last kiai has a lower SV than the first (even if the first kiai has a lower object density)
The kiai during a break
AWESOME/10
fanzhen, i just don't get why sometimes sliders like this 03:40:761 (3) - are mapped on 1/16 god pls
and why u 00:44:547 (6) - here?
what about this kiai that is less intense than an Easy diff. the first kiai is good imo, but the second one is ???
the last kiai is pretty original and plays well imo
otherwise LOL
surono my boi
also on master, why this beat is not even mapped 00:26:343 when you're focusing on vocals/background beat, i think this could be mapped
but thats just my pov tbh
AWESOME/10
fanzhen, i just don't get why sometimes sliders like this 03:40:761 (3) - are mapped on 1/16 god pls
and why u 00:44:547 (6) - here?
what about this kiai that is less intense than an Easy diff. the first kiai is good imo, but the second one is ???
the last kiai is pretty original and plays well imo
otherwise LOL
surono my boi
also on master, why this beat is not even mapped 00:26:343 when you're focusing on vocals/background beat, i think this could be mapped
but thats just my pov tbh
right.-Jordan- wrote:
fanzhens diff is a bad joke gone too far lol
*02:02:023 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - this kiai is less dense than the first one why don't increase the note density here to make it more dense?
*01:14:547 (6,1) - this slider partially covers 01:15:421 (1) - 's reverse arrow, almost completely to be honest
*03:19:499 (1,2,3) - it should be reconsidered because of its lack of readability
*03:24:159 (1,2,3,4) - i think they should be less spaced since is pretty hard for an insane imo
*03:30:567 (2) - no kiai here? in that way the player won't see that the SV got changed but also there's a little gap between this and the previous hitobject //
03:31:732 (2) - same here // 03:32:897 (2) - and so on
the last kiai seems okay to me but in the first kiai seems like you went too far with joking around using only sliders with repeat arrows and high SVs looks so embarassing and at the same time dissapointing imo this reminds me of HW's sliders ww some important beats does not get enough emphasis as they're supposed to because of unjustified rhythm usage you used in this kiai
moreover, how the hell you put kiai in a break section??
i know it sounds rude but you went too far with jokes
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
before everyone dismisses the map completely, i want to point out 3 cool things..
♫ i've been reading books of (O)ldthe (L)egends and the (M)yths ♫
the logic behind O/L/M shaped sliders are obvious but...
00:23:576 (1,2,1,2) - there's an "x" shaped pattern represents the denying of "seeing myself upon that list", which repeats it self for the remainder of that line.
♫ And clearly I (don't) see myself upon that list ♫
00:27:072 (1) - it happens here too, but instead a question is being asked within the lyrics:
But she said, where'd you wanna go? ♫
01:29:984 (1) - ♫ The testaments they told. The moon and its eclipse ♫
most of these are pretty obvious but it's just kinda cool to know.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
many poeple view the diff as "10 second mapping" / "attentiongrab shitpile", but i believe it's not that shallow. fanzhen has a clear concept in mind but it wasn't executed properly.
throughout the map, now and then appears a stacking pattern like so:
these actually represent constellations. the background of the map directly hints (anime dude that look like ascendance with the telescops... also look at the ground)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
i don't have a clue which constellations fanzhen's sliders dipict (or if they represent anything at all) but it's something you should know before judging this map.
a lot of people are complaining about this section: 02:02:023 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - .
if my constellation theory were to apply, this bit would be fine considering the context unless you're like, "but dude this is a [i]rhythm/[i] game fuckin bithc".
the kiai concept is not bad, it's actually just as epic as the other kiais. there's a reason why kite's Imperial Circus Dead Decadence - Uta on chorus is the most epic bit of the entire map despite it being least dense and easy. the idea is to rely on the song and not your addition to the beatmap.
there are few things that could be improved for fanzhen. for example, maybe the "clap" hitsound could be replaced with an actual clap and sound significantly louder.
fanzher can do an empty kiai but graves can't use a cigar? bullshit
Indeed, as Arusamour said, the concept of letters, question marks, constellations, etc, is a very good idea, but seriously, the second kiai is very undermapped. The kiai is a set on a repetitive sound, and the way he mapped it is very random to be honest. He mapped some beats that sometimes are not mapped in the next section. For instance this part: 02:09:013 (1) - and here: 02:18:334 (1) - there is not the same mapping pattern, even if it gets more intense on the second part, why on the first part I mentionned is undermapped?
Maybe he has his own decision for making it like this, but to me it looks more like a lazy kiai.
Sorry to you fanzhen if it wasn't the case tho. I think that this kiai is the biggest problem of the difficulty IMO
Maybe he has his own decision for making it like this, but to me it looks more like a lazy kiai.
Sorry to you fanzhen if it wasn't the case tho. I think that this kiai is the biggest problem of the difficulty IMO
i'm certainly biased because fanzhen is my favorite mapper, but here's how my experience with the map went, especially with the controversial second kiai.
when i first watched him map it on stream i was honestly kind of skeptical just because of how undermapped it was
but when i played it, i noticed how sparse the entire map felt. some parts were more concerned with the lyrics than the music, and i of course don't have to mention the second kiai and the third "kiai."
but then the last kiai hit, and the sheer force of it took me by surprise. of course i had, on a visceral level, adjusted to the sparseness of musical expression over the previous 3 minutes of the map, and the completely unrestrained translation of the music into mapping form (coupled with the newly introduced guitars) drew an emotion out of me that was close to triumph. it was probably the most satisfied i ever felt playing a map, at least in recent memory. the second kiai was instrumental in that experience.
was this done on purpose? i don't know, and it doesn't matter.
is this a technique that can be thrown onto anything? definitely not; it requires a song like this to work. you can't undermap the 2nd kiai of a camellia bass noisefest and expect the 3rd kiai to feel the same way this one did.
people make fun of the chainsmokers for chord progressions and melodies that indicate zero creativity, and the criticism is definitely justified, but there still is an electric subtlety of emotion that can be found here that can be found in few other songs on this website -- and even if they exist, they haven't been drawn out and utilized in the way fanzhen does here.
the map obviously isn't the most polished map ever uploaded (01:54:450 (1) - lol), but that's my experience with the map and why i support the 2nd kiai
@pw834 it's actually kinda interesting to compare it to John cage's 4'33" but I don't think they're quite related. 4'33" is about silence (and the ambient noises that lay underneath it) whereas fanzhens 2nd kiai isn't quite silence. The 3rd kiai maybe though
when i first watched him map it on stream i was honestly kind of skeptical just because of how undermapped it was
but when i played it, i noticed how sparse the entire map felt. some parts were more concerned with the lyrics than the music, and i of course don't have to mention the second kiai and the third "kiai."
but then the last kiai hit, and the sheer force of it took me by surprise. of course i had, on a visceral level, adjusted to the sparseness of musical expression over the previous 3 minutes of the map, and the completely unrestrained translation of the music into mapping form (coupled with the newly introduced guitars) drew an emotion out of me that was close to triumph. it was probably the most satisfied i ever felt playing a map, at least in recent memory. the second kiai was instrumental in that experience.
was this done on purpose? i don't know, and it doesn't matter.
is this a technique that can be thrown onto anything? definitely not; it requires a song like this to work. you can't undermap the 2nd kiai of a camellia bass noisefest and expect the 3rd kiai to feel the same way this one did.
people make fun of the chainsmokers for chord progressions and melodies that indicate zero creativity, and the criticism is definitely justified, but there still is an electric subtlety of emotion that can be found here that can be found in few other songs on this website -- and even if they exist, they haven't been drawn out and utilized in the way fanzhen does here.
the map obviously isn't the most polished map ever uploaded (01:54:450 (1) - lol), but that's my experience with the map and why i support the 2nd kiai
@pw834 it's actually kinda interesting to compare it to John cage's 4'33" but I don't think they're quite related. 4'33" is about silence (and the ambient noises that lay underneath it) whereas fanzhens 2nd kiai isn't quite silence. The 3rd kiai maybe though
hey now he canTarrasky wrote:
fanzher can do an empty kiai but graves can't use a cigar? bullshit
index finger on the left
middle finger on the right
tongue in the middle
middle finger on the right
tongue in the middle
Guys.
Guys.
It's one thing to go.
"Hey, wouldn't it be cool to undermap a nearly identical section so that I can bring increased emphasis to the subtle differences?"
It's another to go
"Fuck mapping the second kiai let's just have a few clicks on the spots where there are tiny differences and see if people are blinded enough by my reputation to defend this disgusting decision"
One is smart mapping.
The other is being a pretentious twat.
And if you defend this shit, you're also a pretentious twat.
Stop attributing musical and artistic genius to a fucking joke gone way too far. It's pathetic.
Guys.
It's one thing to go.
"Hey, wouldn't it be cool to undermap a nearly identical section so that I can bring increased emphasis to the subtle differences?"
It's another to go
"Fuck mapping the second kiai let's just have a few clicks on the spots where there are tiny differences and see if people are blinded enough by my reputation to defend this disgusting decision"
One is smart mapping.
The other is being a pretentious twat.
And if you defend this shit, you're also a pretentious twat.
Stop attributing musical and artistic genius to a fucking joke gone way too far. It's pathetic.
Hello everyone. Seems we need more discussion on fanzhen's Insane before moving this forward again. Make sure to reply to all the mods first.
In my personal opinion, I completely agree with that there's no good reason to justify the second kiai being composed 180-degree different way. Some people did say the song has "minor difference", so why does the map itself have "super major difference" to indicate such minor things? You also have to consider that the Hard is much harder on that part and this ruins the spread for the entire second kiai.
Additionally, I'd give my opinion on some other things as well:
@Hard: AR 6.5 seems a little too low, mainly because the map sometimes uses wide 1/2 spacings and even widely-spaced 1/4s. Furthermore, the spacing changes quite frequently so it requires quite a bit of AR reading, therefore I suggest increasing it a little.
@Regou
01:07:848 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6) - 02:03:771 (1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6) - I really don't get this. Many notes are on non-existent sound and they're even heavily emphasized by jumps. I don't think the music supports this kind of rhythm emphasis at all. Like how are you going to justify 01:08:358 (2) - 01:09:450 (2) - 01:09:814 (4) - 01:10:033 (6) - , even when very obvious sounds like 01:06:392 - 01:07:557 - are just slow, passive beats?
03:16:586 (1,2,1) - 03:17:751 (1,2,1) - 03:21:246 (1,2,1) - 03:22:411 (1,2,1) - etc, basically same issue. The notes in the middle looks really forced just to create an intense movement, while the actual strong beats you hear are the other red/white tick sounds. They create active beats that do not exist in the music. There are many other ways to represent the actual strong beats.
In my personal opinion, I completely agree with that there's no good reason to justify the second kiai being composed 180-degree different way. Some people did say the song has "minor difference", so why does the map itself have "super major difference" to indicate such minor things? You also have to consider that the Hard is much harder on that part and this ruins the spread for the entire second kiai.
Additionally, I'd give my opinion on some other things as well:
@Hard: AR 6.5 seems a little too low, mainly because the map sometimes uses wide 1/2 spacings and even widely-spaced 1/4s. Furthermore, the spacing changes quite frequently so it requires quite a bit of AR reading, therefore I suggest increasing it a little.
@Regou
01:07:848 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6) - 02:03:771 (1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6) - I really don't get this. Many notes are on non-existent sound and they're even heavily emphasized by jumps. I don't think the music supports this kind of rhythm emphasis at all. Like how are you going to justify 01:08:358 (2) - 01:09:450 (2) - 01:09:814 (4) - 01:10:033 (6) - , even when very obvious sounds like 01:06:392 - 01:07:557 - are just slow, passive beats?
03:16:586 (1,2,1) - 03:17:751 (1,2,1) - 03:21:246 (1,2,1) - 03:22:411 (1,2,1) - etc, basically same issue. The notes in the middle looks really forced just to create an intense movement, while the actual strong beats you hear are the other red/white tick sounds. They create active beats that do not exist in the music. There are many other ways to represent the actual strong beats.
rip fanzhen
for the record it proly took less effort to make the 1st kiai than it did for him 2 make the 2nd kiai but ye
: P
: P
Shiirn wrote:
"Fuck mapping the second kiai let's just have a few clicks on the spots where there are tiny differences and see if people are blinded enough by my reputation to defend this disgusting decision"
One is smart mapping.
The other is being a pretentious twat.
And if you defend this shit, you're also a pretentious twat.
omg Fanzhen invented basic slider art and unnecessary under mapping!!1!1!! Pure Genius!
tldr at bottom
i never called him a genius and i wouldnt call this map genius either, it's just something new and interesting that, surprisingly, works -- for me. so of course i'm fond of it, especially since i dont remember anything doing something similar. even if fanzhen disowns the kiai and calls it a joke, i'll always still like it for what it is, regardless of who mapped it.
i also don't think there are actually any significant differences, musically, between the first and second kiai; to be completely honest, i dont even hear any. it's not really consistent mapping to map the 2nd kiai this way and the 1st kiai that way, but as long as the mapping works a certain way, it doesn't need to be consistent. in fact, handsome's second section (the part of the music where fanzhen's kiai is) is mapped a bit differently from the other sections, and some of the sliders are mapped to exactly nothing in order to emphasize that nothingness, but nobody is complaining about that, except to bring it up once or twice during the modding process and then leave it alone afterwards. complaints about fanzhen's kiai aren't complaints of principle, but of degree, which i've always felt are unproductive, limiting, and way too arbitrary. "if he's only this inconsistent, it's okay. but if he's THIS inconsistent, that's just unacceptable."
even if you ignore the way the 2nd kiai contrasts with the 4th kiai, the 2nd kiai in effect does the same thing as handsome's map, which is express the music in 2 different ways and thus make the player see the same music from 2 angles. the first angle is obviously mapped to the synth, which is the most obvious mapping choice. the second angle is to express the percussive minimalism of the music which exists not in a vacuum, but which affects the feeling of the music as a whole, and the percussive minimalism in Something Just Like This is important to how the song feels. obviously some exaggeration is used to more effectively convey that aspect of the music, but exaggeration is everywhere in mapping ("extremely sʟᴏᴡ and ꓕS∀ᖵ SV is the source of ᑕᖇᙓᗩTᓰᐯᓰT૪," for instance) this is just a different method of exaggeration, and unsurprisingly, the knee-jerk reaction to any kind of difference is rejection.
the only real hard-and-fast rule of mapping is that it works. mappers have created a bunch of guidelines that we follow 99.9% of the time because there's generally no reason not to. map to the music, map consistently, have difficulty represent intensity. other well known guidelines followed less frequently: have "good flow," avoid "unjustified" difficulty spikes, etc.. but people forget that all these guidelines are derivations of the first rule, which is make sure it works. they cling to these guidelines 100% of the time instead of ~99% of the time as they should be, so if something comes along that violates these guidelines while actually working, they label it bad and shuffle along.
i'll be the first to say that great mappers everywhere are still churning out cool maps even today, but mapping really has been stagnating a little bit recently. so of course i'm glad that something interesting and new that works on several levels (one i've detailed here, and the other in my previous post) has come along, and of course i would like it to be ranked. but i've said my piece and you may now continue calling me pretentious without saying anything actually substantive, or whatever else suits your fancy. it's up to you guys to determine the possibilities and limitations of mapping now, have at it
also it's silly to think that mapping is automatically bad just because it's low effort, or even if it was by mistake. mapping is an art but mapping isn't high art like film or literature, intention of creator doesn't come into play. all that matters is the end product
tl;dr:
fanzhen's 1st and 2nd kiai makes you look at the music two different ways
1: synth, which is the most obvious choice
2: the fact that the music is low bpm, uses little percussion, and thus can be and is heard as a slow, relaxing song. which it is.
it also contrasts with the 4th kiai, because the whole map is relatively undermapped but the 4th kiai isn't, so the 4th kiai is extra satisfying. the 2nd kiai is extra undermapped which makes the contrast even stronger
this is different mapping, and just because it's different and unfamiliar, people will think it's bad. this is always what happens
i never called him a genius and i wouldnt call this map genius either, it's just something new and interesting that, surprisingly, works -- for me. so of course i'm fond of it, especially since i dont remember anything doing something similar. even if fanzhen disowns the kiai and calls it a joke, i'll always still like it for what it is, regardless of who mapped it.
i also don't think there are actually any significant differences, musically, between the first and second kiai; to be completely honest, i dont even hear any. it's not really consistent mapping to map the 2nd kiai this way and the 1st kiai that way, but as long as the mapping works a certain way, it doesn't need to be consistent. in fact, handsome's second section (the part of the music where fanzhen's kiai is) is mapped a bit differently from the other sections, and some of the sliders are mapped to exactly nothing in order to emphasize that nothingness, but nobody is complaining about that, except to bring it up once or twice during the modding process and then leave it alone afterwards. complaints about fanzhen's kiai aren't complaints of principle, but of degree, which i've always felt are unproductive, limiting, and way too arbitrary. "if he's only this inconsistent, it's okay. but if he's THIS inconsistent, that's just unacceptable."
even if you ignore the way the 2nd kiai contrasts with the 4th kiai, the 2nd kiai in effect does the same thing as handsome's map, which is express the music in 2 different ways and thus make the player see the same music from 2 angles. the first angle is obviously mapped to the synth, which is the most obvious mapping choice. the second angle is to express the percussive minimalism of the music which exists not in a vacuum, but which affects the feeling of the music as a whole, and the percussive minimalism in Something Just Like This is important to how the song feels. obviously some exaggeration is used to more effectively convey that aspect of the music, but exaggeration is everywhere in mapping ("extremely sʟᴏᴡ and ꓕS∀ᖵ SV is the source of ᑕᖇᙓᗩTᓰᐯᓰT૪," for instance) this is just a different method of exaggeration, and unsurprisingly, the knee-jerk reaction to any kind of difference is rejection.
the only real hard-and-fast rule of mapping is that it works. mappers have created a bunch of guidelines that we follow 99.9% of the time because there's generally no reason not to. map to the music, map consistently, have difficulty represent intensity. other well known guidelines followed less frequently: have "good flow," avoid "unjustified" difficulty spikes, etc.. but people forget that all these guidelines are derivations of the first rule, which is make sure it works. they cling to these guidelines 100% of the time instead of ~99% of the time as they should be, so if something comes along that violates these guidelines while actually working, they label it bad and shuffle along.
i'll be the first to say that great mappers everywhere are still churning out cool maps even today, but mapping really has been stagnating a little bit recently. so of course i'm glad that something interesting and new that works on several levels (one i've detailed here, and the other in my previous post) has come along, and of course i would like it to be ranked. but i've said my piece and you may now continue calling me pretentious without saying anything actually substantive, or whatever else suits your fancy. it's up to you guys to determine the possibilities and limitations of mapping now, have at it
also it's silly to think that mapping is automatically bad just because it's low effort, or even if it was by mistake. mapping is an art but mapping isn't high art like film or literature, intention of creator doesn't come into play. all that matters is the end product
tl;dr:
fanzhen's 1st and 2nd kiai makes you look at the music two different ways
1: synth, which is the most obvious choice
2: the fact that the music is low bpm, uses little percussion, and thus can be and is heard as a slow, relaxing song. which it is.
it also contrasts with the 4th kiai, because the whole map is relatively undermapped but the 4th kiai isn't, so the 4th kiai is extra satisfying. the 2nd kiai is extra undermapped which makes the contrast even stronger
this is different mapping, and just because it's different and unfamiliar, people will think it's bad. this is always what happens
you know what, i don't have particular reasons of making anything so even I can't understand what I'm doing sometimes. what I make at last is actually something made under random trials and I feel like it *might* work. anyway, let's try to get things explained here
tytyDoyak wrote:
@Regou
01:07:848 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6) - 02:03:771 (1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6) - I really don't get this. Many notes are on non-existent sound and they're even heavily emphasized by jumps. I don't think the music supports this kind of rhythm emphasis at all. Like how are you going to justify 01:08:358 (2) - 01:09:450 (2) - 01:09:814 (4) - 01:10:033 (6) - , even when very obvious sounds like 01:06:392 - 01:07:557 - are just slow, passive beats? I removed those 1/4 and it should make more sense now. I also used new patterns. yet, I kept 01:08:358 (2) - because I think it would make a better linkage between 01:07:848 (1) - and those slider patterns.
03:16:586 (1,2,1) - 03:17:751 (1,2,1) - 03:21:246 (1,2,1) - 03:22:411 (1,2,1) - etc, basically same issue. The notes in the middle looks really forced just to create an intense movement, while the actual strong beats you hear are the other red/white tick sounds. They create active beats that do not exist in the music. There are many other ways to represent the actual strong beats. you're like telling me to remap the whole chorus. the whole point of this part is to emphasize the intensity of the music through movement and I like this concept a lot. The feeling of this part would be so much different, let's not to use the word "worse" here, if those notes is being removed. They also shows the articulation in the music is much stronger in this last chorus, creating contrast with the 1st and the 2nd chorus therefore I think this might work. The notes added are to reflect articulations but not to create beat.
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326,192,170373,6,0,B|421:197|396:163|495:170,1,169.9999904633,4|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
186,192,171538,2,0,B|91:187|116:221|17:214,1,169.9999904633,0|8,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
23,131,172411,1,0,0:0:0:0:
242,382,172703,6,0,P|249:317|270:243,1,127.4999928474,4|8,1:0|0:1,0:0:0:0:
264,257,173285,1,0,1:0:0:0:
160,12,173576,2,0,P|166:77|169:115,1,84.99999523163,8|0,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
352,372,174159,2,0,P|346:307|343:269,2,84.99999523163,0|8|0,0:0|1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
499,225,175033,5,4,1:0:0:0:
499,225,175324,2,0,P|472:217|445:213,1,42.49999761581,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
451,131,175615,1,0,1:0:0:0:
451,131,175907,2,0,P|420:139|395:150,1,42.49999761581,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
274,3,176198,5,4,1:3:0:0:
297,94,176343,1,0,3:0:0:0:
297,94,176416,1,0,3:0:0:0:
297,94,176489,1,0,3:0:0:0:
357,30,176635,1,0,3:0:0:0:
371,239,176780,6,0,P|325:227|273:217,1,84.99999523163,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
199,375,177072,2,0,P|153:363|101:353,1,84.99999523163
20,56,177363,6,0,B|-7:113|21:183|83:198|142:265|95:358|32:413|-52:352|-83:290|-48:217|9:171|64:169|135:171|172:112|165:22|144:-2|144:-2|111:24|105:66,1,764.9999570847,4|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
172,198,178819,6,0,P|181:243|188:291,2,84.99999523163,2|2|2,0:3|0:0|0:3,0:0:0:0:
498,363,179693,6,0,B|421:288|318:263|224:324|285:383|360:395|422:373|452:299|452:299|423:240|459:136|459:136|438:197|392:207|356:228|308:192,1,764.9999785423,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
363,128,181149,6,0,P|356:78|347:29,2,84.99999523163,2|2|2,0:0|0:3|0:0,0:0:0:0:
226,118,182023,6,0,B|116:109|37:14|37:14|110:113|125:181|125:181|138:267|112:340|26:365|-20:344|-33:291|-15:223|23:191,1,764.9999570847,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
198,279,183479,6,0,P|212:337|221:381,2,84.99999523163,2|2|2,0:3|0:3|0:3,0:0:0:0:
448,161,184353,6,0,B|468:153|487:151|529:173|526:271|451:294|387:289|330:262|299:219|315:145|401:130|401:130|471:104|485:54|483:-26|421:-49|370:-9|355:63|364:120|400:179|400:179|448:270|448:318|413:367|373:382|343:369|292:385|260:329|287:255,1,1155.999989624,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
281,276,186975,5,2,0:0:0:0:
256,192,187047,12,0,191198,0:0:0:0:
117,190,191343,6,0,L|76:198,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
158,92,191635,2,0,L|124:68,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
257,53,191926,6,0,L|250:12,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
354,94,192217,2,0,L|379:60,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
394,193,192509,6,0,L|436:186,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
352,290,192800,2,0,L|387:315,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
254,330,193091,6,0,L|262:372,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
156,288,193382,2,0,L|132:323,1,42.49999761581,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
127,189,193674,6,0,L|76:198,1,52.69999495285,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
157,99,193965,6,0,L|105:61,1,63.74999885559,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
257,72,194256,6,0,L|245:0,1,73.94999647213,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
361,93,194547,6,0,L|410:24,1,84.99999523163,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
474,275,194839,5,4,3:0:0:0:
409,209,194984,1,0,3:0:0:0:
409,209,195057,1,0,3:0:0:0:
409,209,195130,1,0,3:0:0:0:
384,299,195275,1,8,3:0:0:0:
496,177,195421,5,8,1:0:0:0:
450,366,195567,1,0,3:0:0:0:
314,242,195712,2,0,P|251:252|161:267,1,127.4999928474,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
19,352,196004,6,0,P|53:356|101:277,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
110,46,196586,6,0,B|69:105|78:202|78:202|54:147|10:115,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
110,46,197023,1,0,0:0:0:0:
173,233,197169,6,0,B|247:232|221:255|309:255,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
357,59,197751,6,0,P|282:38|306:165,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|0:1,0:0:0:0:
357,59,198188,1,0,0:0:0:0:
447,252,198334,6,0,P|440:319|432:395,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
512,185,198916,6,0,P|452:154|376:176,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
278,364,199208,2,0,P|338:321|357:244,1,127.4999977112,2|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
243,65,199499,1,6,0:1:0:0:
243,65,199790,6,0,P|249:138|306:193,1,127.4999977112,2|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
278,364,200081,2,0,P|338:321|357:244,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
512,185,200373,2,0,P|452:154|376:176,1,127.4999977112,2|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
197,277,200664,6,0,P|138:288|58:304,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
0,99,201246,6,0,B|61:50|146:67|166:116|166:116|131:177,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
0,99,201683,1,0,0:0:0:0:
246,220,201829,6,0,B|250:294|234:279|241:366,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
386,41,202411,6,0,B|228:17|228:17|297:90,1,254.9999856949,10|2,0:1|0:1,0:0:0:0:
386,41,202848,1,0,0:0:0:0:
390,305,202994,6,0,P|435:295|488:223,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
387,120,203576,6,0,B|277:183|277:183|406:221,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
401,221,204159,1,8,3:0:0:0:
118,38,204305,5,0,3:0:0:0:
118,38,204377,1,0,3:0:0:0:
118,38,204450,1,0,3:0:0:0:
226,16,204596,1,4,3:0:0:0:
36,174,204742,6,0,P|11:125|22:33,1,127.4999977112,10|0,1:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
182,291,205033,2,0,P|152:337|66:373,1,127.4999977112,2|0,1:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
221,104,205324,6,0,P|275:106|350:163,1,127.4999977112,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
481,21,205907,6,0,B|415:74|415:74|444:241,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
481,21,206343,1,0,0:0:0:0:
383,333,206489,6,0,P|329:341|251:357,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
246,222,207072,6,0,B|153:212|153:212|100:262|100:262|-18:254,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|0:1,0:0:0:0:
246,222,207509,1,0,0:0:0:0:
128,48,207654,6,0,B|193:32|193:32|239:72,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
330,26,208237,6,0,P|345:84|301:167,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
122,316,208528,2,0,P|165:273|258:270,1,127.4999977112,2|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
469,356,208819,1,6,0:1:0:0:
469,356,209110,6,0,P|410:339|360:260,1,127.4999977112,2|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
122,316,209402,2,0,P|165:273|258:270,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
330,26,209693,2,0,P|345:84|301:167,1,127.4999977112,2|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
281,369,209984,6,0,L|307:233,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
460,76,210567,6,0,B|511:195|511:195|430:304,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
460,76,211004,1,0,0:0:0:0:
243,182,211149,6,0,P|299:155|364:180,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
244,49,211732,6,0,B|108:29|169:125|-9:99,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|0:1,0:0:0:0:
244,49,212169,1,0,0:0:0:0:
0,198,212314,6,0,P|46:206|128:226,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
115,326,212897,6,0,B|158:379|260:351|260:351|247:278|189:251,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
421,38,213479,5,4,3:0:0:0:
264,0,213625,1,0,3:0:0:0:
264,0,213698,1,0,3:0:0:0:
264,0,213771,1,0,3:0:0:0:
304,163,213916,1,8,3:0:0:0:
506,104,214062,5,10,1:0:0:0:
332,75,214208,1,0,3:0:0:0:
505,271,214353,5,2,1:0:0:0:
409,135,214499,1,0,3:0:0:0:
346,370,214644,6,0,P|391:350|386:228,1,169.9999904633,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
304,163,215081,1,0,3:0:0:0:
304,163,215227,6,0,P|180:186|7:218,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
30,4,215809,6,0,P|54:11|71:28,1,42.49999761581,8|2,1:3|0:2,0:0:0:0:
155,52,216101,2,0,P|167:81|167:103,1,42.49999761581,2|2,0:2|0:2,0:0:0:0:
175,188,216392,6,0,P|227:238|316:227,1,127.4999977112,10|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
499,76,216683,2,0,P|447:26|358:37,1,127.4999977112,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
408,189,216975,6,0,P|419:289|429:370,1,169.9999904633,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
189,291,217411,5,0,3:0:0:0:
189,291,217557,2,0,P|175:158|159:14,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
0,110,218140,6,0,P|24:111|56:97,1,42.49999761581,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
40,213,218431,2,0,P|69:209|86:194,1,42.49999761581,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
406,49,218722,6,0,P|352:10|281:27,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
262,168,219013,2,0,P|316:207|387:190,1,127.4999977112,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
508,308,219305,6,0,B|425:318|443:348|341:360,1,169.9999904633,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
174,201,219742,5,0,3:0:0:0:
174,201,219887,2,0,P|262:150|269:274,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
360,42,220470,6,0,L|349:93,2,42.49999761581,8|2|2,1:3|0:2|0:2,0:0:0:0:
143,62,220907,5,2,0:2:0:0:
143,62,221052,2,0,P|197:67|285:18,1,127.4999977112,10|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
499,165,221343,2,0,P|445:160|357:209,1,127.4999977112,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
271,209,221635,6,0,L|252:380,1,169.9999904633,8|2,1:3|0:2,0:0:0:0:
252,377,222072,1,2,0:2:0:0:
178,191,222217,6,0,B|103:215|103:215|65:307|65:307|-25:345,1,254.9999856949,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
60,75,222800,5,4,3:0:0:0:
233,38,222945,1,0,3:0:0:0:
233,38,223018,1,0,3:0:0:0:
233,38,223091,1,0,3:0:0:0:
143,58,223237,1,8,3:0:0:0:
285,263,223382,6,0,L|302:105,1,127.4999977112,10|0,1:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
473,314,223674,2,0,L|486:187,1,127.4999977112,2|0,1:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
370,340,223965,6,0,P|218:366|112:385,1,254.9999954224,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
119,384,224547,6,0,P|106:304|158:227,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
4,214,224839,2,0,P|30:157|91:115,1,127.4999977112,2|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
161,9,225130,6,0,P|228:97|375:102,1,254.9999954224,8|2,1:3|0:2,0:0:0:0:
364,106,225712,6,0,L|353:234,1,127.4999977112,10|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
486,224,226004,2,0,L|474:351,1,127.4999977112,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
344,342,226295,6,0,B|254:325|254:325|207:354|207:354|86:327,1,254.9999856949,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
101,330,226877,6,0,B|95:265|95:265|146:188,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
335,95,227169,2,0,B|281:132|281:132|189:126,1,127.4999977112,2|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
3,3,227460,1,2,0:1:0:0:
3,3,227751,6,0,B|61:30|61:30|102:113,1,127.4999977112,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
335,95,228042,2,0,B|281:132|281:132|189:126,1,127.4999977112,10|0,0:1|0:0,0:0:0:0:
101,330,228334,2,0,B|95:265|95:265|146:188,1,127.4999977112,2|2,0:1|0:2,0:0:0:0:
246,343,228625,6,0,P|334:361|372:368,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
512,282,229208,6,0,B|480:207|407:191|407:191|371:242|409:307,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
512,282,229644,1,0,0:0:0:0:
382,40,229790,6,0,B|299:35|327:59|238:50,1,127.4999928474,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
171,122,230373,6,0,P|89:137|134:23,1,254.9999954224,10|2,0:1|0:1,0:0:0:0:
171,122,230809,1,0,0:0:0:0:
24,268,230955,6,0,B|136:262|89:309|191:305,1,169.9999904633,8|0,1:3|3:0,0:0:0:0:
298,231,231392,1,0,3:0:0:0:
298,231,231538,2,0,P|258:225|206:218,1,84.99999523163,10|2,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
410,349,232120,5,4,3:0:0:0:
432,269,232266,1,0,3:0:0:0:
432,269,232339,1,0,3:0:0:0:
432,269,232411,1,0,3:0:0:0:
448,184,232557,1,8,3:0:0:0:
384,12,232703,6,0,P|393:65|402:134,1,84.99999761581,10|0,1:0|3:0,0:0:0:0:
448,184,232994,2,0,P|388:124|280:140,1,169.9999952316,2|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
307,124,233576,1,0,0:0:0:0:
there is a difference between a lazy undermapping, and a bad mapping.melloe wrote:
this is different mapping, and just because it's different and unfamiliar, people will think it's bad. this is always what happens
moreover, some mappers like undeadcapulet or hw that do something different and unfamiliar, and it's good, but the fanzhen's diff is not like this. there is good concepts with sliders indeed, now lets see what fanzhen will do with changes!
if it's lazy undermapping, it's lazy undermapping that works. if it works, nothing else matters.Pachiru wrote:
there is a difference between a lazy undermapping, and a bad mapping.
moreover, some mappers like undeadcapulet or hw that do something different and unfamiliar, and it's good, but the fanzhen's diff is not like this. there is good concepts with sliders indeed, now lets see what fanzhen will do with changes!
it might be bad mapping, but then you would have to explain why it's bad. i already explained why i think it's goodmelloe wrote:
also it's silly to think that mapping is automatically bad just because it's low effort, or even if it was by mistake. mapping is an art but mapping isn't high art like film or literature, intention of creator doesn't come into play. all that matters is the end product
A tier 2 BN nominated this map so it is, by definition, objectively goodShiirn wrote:
if you defend this shit, you're also a pretentious twat.
For what it's worth, I personally don't think fanzhen's difficulty warranted a DQ. It's rankable. Opinions and reactions to choices are a couple of the major reasons I map as well. But there's a limit.
i was just responding to the map itself and not you specifically, I don't mean to reject your opinion, I just think, that the concepts are there, but for me personally, they were done pretty lazily, and just don't feel right. I think it's cool to do new, interesting things, but this definitely felt more like it was mostly purposed to grab attention versus actually represent the song. But, that's just me.melloe wrote:
tldr at bottom
i never called him a genius and i wouldnt call this map genius either, it's just something new and interesting that, surprisingly, works -- for me. so of course i'm fond of it, especially since i dont remember anything doing something similar. even if fanzhen disowns the kiai and calls it a joke, i'll always still like it for what it is, regardless of who mapped it.
i also don't think there are actually any significant differences, musically, between the first and second kiai; to be completely honest, i dont even hear any. it's not really consistent mapping to map the 2nd kiai this way and the 1st kiai that way, but as long as the mapping works a certain way, it doesn't need to be consistent. in fact, handsome's second section (the part of the music where fanzhen's kiai is) is mapped a bit differently from the other sections, and some of the sliders are mapped to exactly nothing in order to emphasize that nothingness, but nobody is complaining about that, except to bring it up once or twice during the modding process and then leave it alone afterwards. complaints about fanzhen's kiai aren't complaints of principle, but of degree, which i've always felt are unproductive, limiting, and way too arbitrary. "if he's only this inconsistent, it's okay. but if he's THIS inconsistent, that's just unacceptable."
even if you ignore the way the 2nd kiai contrasts with the 4th kiai, the 2nd kiai in effect does the same thing as handsome's map, which is express the music in 2 different ways and thus make the player see the same music from 2 angles. the first angle is obviously mapped to the synth, which is the most obvious mapping choice. the second angle is to express the percussive minimalism of the music which exists not in a vacuum, but which affects the feeling of the music as a whole, and the percussive minimalism in Something Just Like This is important to how the song feels. obviously some exaggeration is used to more effectively convey that aspect of the music, but exaggeration is everywhere in mapping ("extremely sʟᴏᴡ and ꓕS∀ᖵ SV is the source of ᑕᖇᙓᗩTᓰᐯᓰT૪," for instance) this is just a different method of exaggeration, and unsurprisingly, the knee-jerk reaction to any kind of difference is rejection.
the only real hard-and-fast rule of mapping is that it works. mappers have created a bunch of guidelines that we follow 99.9% of the time because there's generally no reason not to. map to the music, map consistently, have difficulty represent intensity. other well known guidelines followed less frequently: have "good flow," avoid "unjustified" difficulty spikes, etc.. but people forget that all these guidelines are derivations of the first rule, which is make sure it works. they cling to these guidelines 100% of the time instead of ~99% of the time as they should be, so if something comes along that violates these guidelines while actually working, they label it bad and shuffle along.
i'll be the first to say that great mappers everywhere are still churning out cool maps even today, but mapping really has been stagnating a little bit recently. so of course i'm glad that something interesting and new that works on several levels (one i've detailed here, and the other in my previous post) has come along, and of course i would like it to be ranked. but i've said my piece and you may now continue calling me pretentious without saying anything actually substantive, or whatever else suits your fancy. it's up to you guys to determine the possibilities and limitations of mapping now, have at it
also it's silly to think that mapping is automatically bad just because it's low effort, or even if it was by mistake. mapping is an art but mapping isn't high art like film or literature, intention of creator doesn't come into play. all that matters is the end product
tl;dr:
fanzhen's 1st and 2nd kiai makes you look at the music two different ways
1: synth, which is the most obvious choice
2: the fact that the music is low bpm, uses little percussion, and thus can be and is heard as a slow, relaxing song. which it is.
it also contrasts with the 4th kiai, because the whole map is relatively undermapped but the 4th kiai isn't, so the 4th kiai is extra satisfying. the 2nd kiai is extra undermapped which makes the contrast even stronger
this is different mapping, and just because it's different and unfamiliar, people will think it's bad. this is always what happens
i was talking more to shiirn, gratuitous hostility annoys me.cosmiccc wrote:
i was just responding to the map itself and not you specifically, I don't mean to reject your opinion, I just think, that the concepts are there, but for me personally, they were done pretty lazily, and just don't feel right. I think it's cool to do new, interesting things, but this definitely felt more like it was mostly purposed to grab attention versus actually represent the song. But, that's just me.
that's fine that you have your opinion, i dont think the map is perfect either. but personally i think this actually adheres to the music more closely and more interestingly than all other maps. the song really is kind of chill, and fanzhen's map is the only one that says "hey there's a lot going on but remember this is kind of a relaxing song too," and then maps just the snare drums
and for the record i'm actually not a big fan of the slider shapes correlating to the lyrics, and some of the resulting patterns. when mapping, lyrics are the least important part of the song imo. however, it's a viable mapping choice, and it's his map, not mine, so i'm not going to bother complaining about it.
but where is it? and how do we decide that? this is why i dislike arguments of degree. "you're doing something right, but do it less" is a strange statement to me. but i guess discussions of degrees are a better conversation than full out shitting on a map without considering what it's doing and howShiirn wrote:
But there's a limit.
The limit is defined by social conventions and the comparison between intents of the mapper against the desires of the community.
If you think that that limit has not been made abundantly clear here, you are beyond help.
If you think that that limit has not been made abundantly clear here, you are beyond help.
good one
when you have a hard time getting something ranked you get to act all victim-y and high-and-mighty noble, and throw around lengthy, exhausted elegies about how a map is doing something right but people just don't get it, but now that you find something you can casually dislike you get to throw around careless words like that?
if a map is good it should be ranked. the limit set by the "desires of the community" is an artificial, arbitrary, and ill-informed one. if they dislike it so much it doesn't get ranked that's fine because that's how the system works, but that's on them and not the map
when you have a hard time getting something ranked you get to act all victim-y and high-and-mighty noble, and throw around lengthy, exhausted elegies about how a map is doing something right but people just don't get it, but now that you find something you can casually dislike you get to throw around careless words like that?
if a map is good it should be ranked. the limit set by the "desires of the community" is an artificial, arbitrary, and ill-informed one. if they dislike it so much it doesn't get ranked that's fine because that's how the system works, but that's on them and not the map
VINXIS wrote:
for the record it proly took less effort to make the 1st kiai than it did for him 2 make the 2nd kiai but ye
: P
lol how about just wait fanzhen's respond
:thinking:Enon wrote:
lol how about just wait fanzhen's respond