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posted
it's not forcing broken stuff though to map to the song, and it shouldn't affect a map's ability to get ranked just because you map to the song. worrying about the community is unrelated to how to map to the song as well by the way.

oh also i'd just like to say i have no opinion on this map in particular, i haven't seen anything about this map nor do i know anything about taiko so me looking would be useless other than to say whether i think it's 1/6 or 3/16, but that isn't important. the only point i'm trying to make is that using star rating to make any judgement about anything is stupid because it is based on some weird formula that clearly doesn't work as intended if it could be broken so easily, and i'd say no one has ever truly thought the pp system has worked as intended in any mode.
posted
Pop quiz results time!

Both A and B are 1/6 snapped and recorded seconds after each other with no individual changes to the beatmap beforehand.

But Ephemeral, that's disingenuous of you. You did this to trap and humiliate people! You phrased the question like they were both snapped differently from each other.

It is a little bit, but it was done so with a very important point. The pop quiz illustrates not a failing in any of the people who choose to try it to correctly identify snapping within a map, but the near-impossibility of relying on human senses for such incredible precision, and the incredible number of factors in any particular situation that can thwart such attempts.

A few people in the modding discord correctly identified to me in private that both videos were in 1/6. One person did so after investigating each video for per-frame, per-pixel differences. This suggests to me that those particular people took the effort to consider an alternate solution to the obvious one that was offered and sought to substantiate differences they noticed in the videos with real, tangible evidence. That is the kind of problem solving that I want to see more of in modding, instead of blind reliance on what 'feels' correct.

This extends to using peculiar snaps like 3/16, as well. It may 'feel' correct, but it is musically incorrect, and it is at best, a pale workaround to a much greater issue.

The effective difference between 1/6 and 3/16 is minute. Almost impossibly minute. The reason that it subjectively sounds and plays superior to many of the people who have expressed as much in the thread is that with the current beatmap's imprecise timing (due to its approximated bpm), the greater precision of the 3/16 split allows for note placement closer to the actual sounds of the beatmap. 3/16 allows for in essence, correction of incorrect timing.

The 107.96 bpm approximation that Ishukan has is the direct reason why 3/16 is thought to be required. Any map with an approximated bpm would demonstrate the same effect of feeling "more accurate" if notes were placed on a considerably more precise interval, where individual notes can be tailored to match sounds at a much higher level of allowed deviation. This does not make their timing correct - if anything, it exacerbates the problem at higher levels of play such as when using mods like DT or HR, and those timing inaccuracies compound into significantly greater problems. A good example could be made in halving a map's BPM and doubling the lowest level of snapping used to map it with. You wouldn't do that, so similarly, you shouldn't do it here, either.

pishifat and Shiro have both suggested alternate timing using the splice method. Indeed, 1/6 within their timing schema is both the musically correct and technically correct way to approach a track composed in this general measure. The two of them are both very experienced and highly skilled timers - perhaps among the eminent tiers of excellence in their respective fields. To disregard their expertise would be very silly indeed.

Thus, from the observations outlined earlier and the reasoning above, I must insist that the splice timing is applied and the snapping adjusted to 1/6.

I may have said earlier that I was willing to compromise on the matter, but after further consideration and the subsequent example as portrayed by the "pop quiz", I no longer feel comfortable relying on the measurement of a handful of people's ears (and being at the mercy to the dozens of potential confounding factors thereof) in comparison to hundreds of years of musical theory and first-hand knowledge of how timing functions in this game.

If the mapper does not wish to capitulate on this front, then there will be no recourse but to leave the map in the graveyard until he decides otherwise. That, or someone presents sufficient evidence to suggest that my line of reasoning is faulty, and that two of the game's best timers apparently do not know what they're talking about.
posted
^ This dude is amazing. :idea:
posted

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

people using SR as an argument for why the changes need to be made doesn't make sense, the pp system should never dictate how anyone maps
I agree with MBomb. You guys should check quality of the beatmaps instead of SR.
I will say the truth. With Skylish's timing, 3/16 works perfect. If timing is different as pishifat re-timed, 1/6 may work. Unranking any ranked beatmap make people feel like "Even if your map has been ranked, it wouldn't save it from getting unranked.". I've been expecting the possibility that Ephemeral's question is "tricky", but I tried to see the "difference" anyways.
Taiko SR system works like "If snapping is uncommon, then high SR because no one could FC it." according to what I experienced. That's why many people discussed for MANIERA, right?
For Ephemeral: When there're many maps that its BPM/Offset is totally wrong, you and other staff did nothing and you unranked that due to free pp stuff. If you think I'm trying to justify Skylish for pp, let me say that: I didn't get pp from this map when it's ranked. Even if I try for pp, I can't get anyway. I do it because I explained on my first words.
posted
We should aim for correctness wherever possible. On some things, views may meet a tidy compromise. On some things, they simply cannot. Timing must always be as correct as possible and Ishukan being in a period recent enough since ranking to fix without losing too many scores is mainly due to timely reports from concerned parties.

The cycle being lax and the system failing in the past is no excuse, nor ample precedent to allow it to occur again.

At least not while I am watching over it.
posted
Please don't forget that potentially extremely minor issues regarding timing have occurred dozens of times in the past - I distinctly remember several maps from several high and low profile mappers being disqualified or unranked for such minor issues as the wrong timing signature or incorrectly using half or double bpm. Note that both of those do not impact the performance points, difficulty rating, or indeed, do not affect the playing field in any way whatsoever.

There are many cases of electronically timed music having slight drift over the course of their track. The first that pops into my head as a good example is Memme - Avalanche, of which you can find a dozen maps for. It's pretty obvious just listening to this track that it's a form of swing, as Ephemeral said, so you shouldn't need to fuck with the timing that hard to fix it. This would be far from the first map to have any sort of neat-integer-bpm-but-drifts-over-time issue, so setting the bpm flat and yelling "but it's off at the end" is just narrow-minded and really shows inexperience with mapping and music in general.

Ephemeral's assumption that the production office just less-than-perfectly chopped up the full size version (which is already probably messed up due to shitty production values) to a TV cut is by far the most likely reason for this drift - I think other TV sizes have had this issue, but can't remember any examples to spit out.

Fixing this is a matter of pride and precision, not a matter of morals and intent. Don't try to appeal to emotion. The entire reason Ephemeral pointed out that the map vastly fucked with the difficulty algorithm is that he was making an example of how significant even small changes can be - taking it to mean "I'm demanding you change the timing to something else so you don't break this broken system" is a rather extreme and malicious way to understand his intent, isn't it?
posted
lol I stated that: 'that's a trap for this pop quiz as they are the same'. And indeed they are the same.... whatever here's the issue:

> Not going to repeat why 107.96 BPM, and 3/16 snappings usage.

> I did not show disrespect to Pishifat and Shiro. I checked his suggestion and find it not suitable, as well explained already. To be honest, do you really check my reply there, Epher?

> As you are so determined, and so do I, this mapset will be graved because the main point you put focus on is SR and 1/16 snaps, where you do not want to have any single example made. I can understand that, but simultaneously feel sorry to say that: this is a real inappropriate action.

To haters:

Yeah I guess you guys are on Cloud 9 now. Stay tuned boys.
posted
how about we fix the pp system instead
posted
graveyarding the dragons... im sad now
posted
Hi. I like this map, hope re-rank.

For your reference.
In "Aozora no Rhapsody" the theme song of 小林さんちのメイドラゴン, similer snap is actually used in the Inner Oni of Taiko no Tatsujin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5fT530of4A

I hope this map to be ranked in keep current style.
When it's brought close to general-snap placement, play becomes easy, but it's nothing other than to destroy the characteristics of the song.
I think that it's most important what can't do without this song.
posted

maziari1105 wrote:

Hi. I like this map, hope re-rank.

For your reference.
In "Aozora no Rhapsody" the theme song of 小林さんちのメイドラゴン, similer snap is actually used in the Inner Oni of Taiko no Tatsujin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5fT530of4A

I hope this map to be ranked in keep current style.
When it's brought close to general-snap placement, play becomes easy, but it's nothing other than to destroy the characteristics of the song.
I think that it's most important what can't do without this song.
Skylish already mentioned what you mentioned
However it was already decided
This thread has gotten too tensioned
and death was where the map had headed

Foolish was the Star Rating
playing with its baiting
Ruining such a good idea
Without fruition, leaving us waiting

Seriously though, Just a Re-Write on the Star Rating and it could have worked, but I guess its forbidden to rank a weird snap
It got mentioned in Despacito about the weird snap too, so if its something that goes over all maps, then people should just put a bloody rule about it, because i dont see it, but whatever.
The map is dead now sadly :(
posted

Vulkin wrote:

maziari1105 wrote:

Hi. I like this map, hope re-rank.

For your reference.
In "Aozora no Rhapsody" the theme song of 小林さんちのメイドラゴン, similer snap is actually used in the Inner Oni of Taiko no Tatsujin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5fT530of4A

I hope this map to be ranked in keep current style.
When it's brought close to general-snap placement, play becomes easy, but it's nothing other than to destroy the characteristics of the song.
I think that it's most important what can't do without this song.
Skylish already mentioned what you mentioned
However it was already decided
This thread has gotten too tensioned
and death was where the map had headed

Foolish was the Star Rating
playing with its baiting
Ruining such a good idea
Without fruition, leaving us waiting

Seriously though, Just a Re-Write on the Star Rating and it could have worked, but I guess its forbidden to rank a weird snap
It got mentioned in Despacito about the weird snap too, so if its something that goes over all maps, then people should just put a bloody rule about it, because i dont see it, but whatever.
The map is dead now sadly :(
I fucking love you Vulkin LOL
posted
Please rerank for a happier ily4
posted

iloveyou4ever wrote:

Please rerank for a happier ily4
Well played wwwww
posted
This modding thread has been migrated to the new "modding discussions" system. Please make sure to re-post any existing (and unresolved) efforts to the new system as required.
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