1. osu! forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Beatmap Graveyard
show more
posted
random input

playing the map, it doesn't feel noticably off.

The only real issue is that the taiko star rating system results in extreme inflation when objects are snapped weirdly.
Is there a reason that this can't be changed?
posted

Bonsai wrote:

timing is a happy thing

now to cut myself. φ(^ω^*)ノ✂


On a sidenote, none of this would be a problem if you mapped this way better version of the song too 8-)8-)8-)

 
8bit <3 3
posted
the map played perfectly fine in my eyes, I am surprised this got "deranked" out of all maps
posted

yea wrote:

the map played perfectly fine in my eyes, I am surprised this got "deranked" out of all maps
yeah it was unexpected to see
posted
I am also surprised, in fact I believed that ranked maps stays ranked - no matter how crucial the issues are.
posted
The righteous of using 3/16 stays, as well as the BPM. I will notify Epher again within several days later, about my decision on this mapset.

Thanks for all inputs again.
posted
wait
ranked -> disqualified?
amazing
posted
idk, I read Ephemeral's post and it's like... did he even play the map?
posted
Wait, what?! If ranked maps can be disqualified, then the other old, bad Taiko maps at current standards should be unranked as well. I played and FC'ed the Inner Oni one this map and I don't really feel anything wrong at all, just my fault of not catching the song tempo correctly. It might sound fine if you try 1/6, but actually it would be too fast if you try listen at 25%, 50% or even 75% if you have good ears. Basicry, it's too fast on the highlighted red da dada dada dada etc.

It's the matter between

1.) keeping the map sounds right, even though it isn't conventional, and who the heck cares about "unconventional 3/16"? It's just equivalent to 3/4 with 1/4 of the note length in 1 measure (room divider), and 3/4 is well known as "Waltz", conventional enough.
2.) changing the map to 1/6, so that it won't have any problems. I would rather not submit the map if knowing that several people aren't ok with the 1/6 map. And if it's also about avoiding the overrated difficulty, it's not even the mapper's fault at all. And why is star difficulty calculation based on something like time signature? Shouldn't the difficulty *independent* on the whatever the time signature is? The system should look at how the rhythm repetition instead...? Just take a grain of photon for my opinion on star diff system.
posted
I was not going to post anymore in this thread but it seems like many posters here are forgetting the real meaning about a map being ranked.

"Ranked" doesn't mean "your map is cool so we will make it official xD"; instead, it means "we'll add a scoreboard to your map in order for players compare their skills".

That's what the pp system is, the most accurate way the developers found to make a fair calculation of players skills. Therefore, when the word "RANKED" comes in play, the way it helps this system to calculate players skills is the most important thing to have on account, even if failing at this purpose is or not the mapper's fault.

Star Rating system is not accurate and needs to be fixed? Yes. Still that is not enough reason to let the pp system to be broke.
Others pointed out that are other overweighted maps... Do they make a difference of 1.5 stars? I don't think so, that's the main concern about this map

Mappers should take that on account, they are making a notechart for an already established game system. That means the mapper can do as much as experimental maps as they like, but they most probably are not going to be suitable for the game.

I think this should be understandable enough.
posted

ARGENTINE DREAM wrote:

Star Rating system is not accurate and needs to be fixed? Yes. Still that is not enough reason to let the pp system to be broke.
the pp system is mostly broken because the star rating system is broke. the only reason this is a pp map in its current state is because it's 5.63* and 7.88* with DT. there wouldn't even be a discussion on this if star rating made sense for this type of snapping.

ARGENTINE DREAM wrote:

Others pointed out that are other overweighted maps... Do they make a difference of 1.5 stars? I don't think so, that's the main concern about this map
there are plenty of ranked maps that play at a much lower star rating, but have one or two difficult spots that raise the star rating extremely high. this is true in both standard and taiko. i'll point out a few recent examples:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1330403 - this is a nearly 6 minute map, if you remove three streams in the middle of the map then you have a 5 minute map that is 4.32*. the entire map is 6.2*, but if you can play a few difficult streams, even with a couple misses, you're getting extreme amounts of pp for a 4.32* map.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/690886 - another 6+ minute map, if you remove a total of 15 notes in the 1/8 doubles section, making them single notes instead, the star rating drops from 7.08* to 5.97*. and 1/8 doubles at that speed aren't hard to play, even though they're kinda easy to shitmiss on. it's basically a free star rating increase and thus a free pp increase.

the only difference between this map and the two i mentioned above are that those maps have the star rating increased by sections that are difficult, and this map just has star rating increased due to the awkward snapping, the map isn't technically any harder on 3/16 than 1/6. it should be easier on 3/16 because the doubles are slower and farther apart on 3/16 than on 1/6.
posted

Catgirl wrote:

the pp system is mostly broken because the star rating system is broke
You mean: "the main reason of the pp system being broken is the SR calculation". Yes, that doesn't mean the PP system itself is broken by the most part because a vast majority of maps work well according to both SR and PP.

Catgirl wrote:

there wouldn't even be a discussion on this if star rating made sense for this type of snapping.
There would... Didn't you read the rest of the thread? The concerns about the snapping started in the modding stage. Even if SR worked well with this kind of snapping, the music theory backing up the fact this shouldn't be mapped this way would still exist and there's people that's gonna point it out.

This map is also a good point of debate for QATs to discuss about osu! being a game about music or osu! being a game about trying to press hitcircles in exact milisecond points over a sound playing in the background. So I think you shouldn't really try to minimize what's going on here, because it is actually a really important matter.

Catgirl wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1330403 - this is a nearly 6 minute map, if you remove three streams in the middle of the map then you have a 5 minute map that is 4.32*. the entire map is 6.2*, but if you can play a few difficult streams, even with a couple misses, you're getting extreme amounts of pp for a 4.32* map.
Here the SR reflects the difficulty of the song, you know, that section in the middle is actually part of the song. If the HP is set correctly, you could probably fail the song just by missing notes at that section. Players whose limit is 4.3 stars wouldn't get a decent score.

Catgirl wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/690886 - another 6+ minute map, if you remove a total of 15 notes in the 1/8 doubles section, making them single notes instead, the star rating drops from 7.08* to 5.97*. and 1/8 doubles at that speed aren't hard to play, even though they're kinda easy to shitmiss on. it's basically a free star rating increase and thus a free pp increase.
I've heard about flams giving extra pp, but still, flams are resources that are pretty much used in drumming (and in the original TnT), also there's the difficulty on being consistent over them... Probably still too much SR boost.
In this map feel like some of them are placed correctly, but there's that section with a lot of them that could have been better represented by big notes. Still this shouldn't be that much of an issue on maps like this, that are meant for 6 stars players.

As far as I know, extra pp boost is also a bonus for having played a long map, which probably is understandable and makes sense. Probably the devs are going to take a lot of stuff on account for the next time they modify SR calculation. I don't have a formal opinion on this specific point.

Catgirl wrote:

the only difference between this map and the two i mentioned above are that those maps have the star rating increased by sections that are difficult, and this map just has star rating increased due to the awkward snapping
Do you really think that "only difference" is just a little difference? Comparing these maps to Ishukan Communication is just biased.

Catgirl wrote:

the map isn't technically any harder on 3/16 than 1/6. it should be easier on 3/16 because the doubles are slower and farther apart on 3/16 than on 1/6
Because the calculation works over musical notation, not over "space length/ms distance" and other kind of stuff which is more mathematical than musical.
In the practice, there are no significant gamplay changes if you fit the grid to 1/6 (or 1/12 - I don't remember if there were any 1/4 in this map) the map plays the same at normal speed for most players. This is inconceivable for Skylish whose claims are this is a song "out of common sense" and therefore decided on keeping the division snap unchanged regardless it is rankable or not.

The input of the osu!team was needed on the matter and I'm pretty sure they are working to make osu! better. In fact I think every input made here will help make osu! better.
posted
wtf dont take my pp
posted

Surono wrote:

yea wrote:

yeah yea it was unexpected to see
ftfy
posted
I can't believe I lost an UYA run to this
I'm kinda lazy to make a PM to ARGENTINE DREAM, if you see this do answer me in PM instead; but some of my points will be also meant for the general public (because there is a huge misunderstanding about pp and star rating in general)


That's what the pp system is, the most accurate way the developers found to make a fair calculation of players skills. Therefore, when the word "RANKED" comes in play, the way it helps this system to calculate players skills is the most important thing to have on account, even if failing at this purpose is or not the mapper's fault.

Star Rating system is not accurate and needs to be fixed? Yes. Still that is not enough reason to let the pp system to be broke.
Others pointed out that are other overweighted maps... Do they make a difference of 1.5 stars? I don't think so, that's the main concern about this map

Mappers should take that on account, they are making a notechart for an already established game system. That means the mapper can do as much as experimental maps as they like, but they most probably are not going to be suitable for the game.
I only half-agree with this and I'll go point by point, though the first third of this is actually true: pp was meant to make a fair ranking. However, the problem isn't its result, but the combination of Star Rating, OD, length (in NOTECOUNT and not duration), mods and everything else playing towards the final result.
And this is where it falls off.

Star Rating system is not accurate and needs to be fixed? Yes. Still that is not enough reason to let the pp system to be broke.
Everyone's been yelling about this for more time than you'd think! There are many examples of maps that have been overrated while other have been underrated - snapping plays a huge part in this, and star rating is the main reason why pp is so broken: it is absolutely overrating doubles, 24+16th complex streams, patterns that comes in packs of 3 like ddk ddk ddk...., but fast stamina maps have their SR ridiculously low for how hard they are. Case in point: compare The Limit Does Not Exist [Limit Break] (7.50 stars, 260 BPM with huge deathstreams) and Last Fortune (pocotan remix) [Inner Oni] (7.56 stars, 176 BPM with 24+16ths). Nearly everything goes in favour of the latter map: more notes, more stars; but lower OD gives a lower acuracy bonus. It did not stop players from getting HDDTFCs on it, while TLDNE probably still does not have >20 nomod FCs.

Mappers should take that on account
They should not take something that broken into account. Those who think SR has to be taken into account are lying to themselves. There are people who are abusing it, it's their problem; but the honest ones who just want to make a good map and can't get that ranked because the automated difficulty calculator is extremely broken are the ones that lose. There are instances of maps where the Oni is deemed easier than its lower difficulties, because its lower difficulties uses different patterns that are processed as "harder". Anything containing doubles will be shot up by it. Same goes for an innocent ddk ddk ddk.

Others pointed out that are other overweighted maps... Do they make a difference of 1.5 stars? I don't think so
I think so. I'll be talking about Last Fortune again, as the map without any single 1/6 only is 5.15. a 2.41 star difference. The 24+16ths aren't even that hard as it isn't awkwardly handswapping.

a vast majority of maps work well according to both SR and PP.
A vast majority of maps being pretty much anything that doesn't go out of the ordinary. Of course this will work, because all other existing cases are ridiculous. 360 BPM with 1/4? Boom, 7.65 stars. 178 BPM with a lot of 24+16ths streams? Boom, 9.29 stars. See the problem...?


Now let's actually talk about the map eh? If you want to discuss pp please do it here: t/181852 - hopefully this will wake up more people...

About the map:
its fuckin 3/16
posted
Is there any particular reason why the whole-bpm splice timing wasn't applied? I practically wrote an essay on why low interval snaps and non-whole bpms are a terrible idea, and in any conceivable future where I'd be willing to compromise on the snap would be in a universe where the timing is at least approximated to sections instead of allowed to drift 3ms across the length of the track, as stated earlier.
posted

Nifty wrote:

Suroyea wrote:

yeah yea it was unexpected to see
ftfy
fkfy

Unmei Muma wrote:

About the map:
its fuckin 3/16
i would talking for this again, if top 50 scoreboard are A ~ D Rank. should it if a map have a really perfect with timing? orz piano or 90's song are dem. dont take it seriously, if its not from an human error.. yeah I wont tig
posted
After a long discussion after unranked, here's a list of amendments and updates:

> Change the offset from 562 to 568

> Need 3 more modders who agree with the timing setting

> Base SV is re-arranged to 1.4, with 1.2 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5 additional SVs used in Kantan, Futsuu, Muzukashii, Oni, and Inner Oni, based on Nardo's suggestion before.
posted

Ephemeral wrote:

I practically wrote an essay on why low interval snaps and non-whole bpms are a terrible idea
I actually believe some of the points you stated are somewhat irrelevant and the rest could be easily argued against. I would have replied but since this isn't my map I decided against it
[]
I would like to add that I very much agree with the snapping Skylish has used. I thought the old base SVs were better but the new one works too ~
posted
Hey, as a player, I felt nothing wrong while playing. The map is pretty easy even for a casual player, so you can just look at the notes if you're having troubling feeling out 3/16. This doesn't speak for any mods, however, but mods shouldn't apply when ranking a map.

I think we all agree pp shouldn't be a reason to dq, so I won't even talk about that.

As a mapper, I think the 3/16 is also aight, it fits the music. I've seen maps ranked this year that are pretty far off the perceived downbeat, but everyone splashes water when the sr rises, talkin about 2 ms this, arrow vortex that.

Also I've come across songs that have similar kind of drift, specifically from Aphex Twin. Dunno if it's just his music style that calls for the 200.08 bpm in Mt Saint Michel + St Michaels Mount but it fits and is weird as hell.
show more
Please sign in to reply.