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posted
No action will be further taken as the arguements above are still invalid:

> BPM is not stable 108. Check the very last few seconds you will figure that the notes are shifted significantly.

> In Instrumental version, 3/16 is even clearer without the vocal. Sorry to say so again, this is beyond any common musical sense.

> This map is not created for PP. This is a very serious accuse without any solid and concrete proof by stating that my timing is wrong.
posted
a rhythm game
posted

Skylish wrote:

No action will be further taken as the arguements above are still invalid:
That's not something you can decide on your own.

jack1817 wrote:

so it would be nonsense if the music creator decided to type in 107.96 bpm instead of 108 bpm

un-plugged wrote:

Also the bpm is inaccurate.

Skylish wrote:

> BPM is not stable 108. Check the very last few seconds you will figure that the notes are shifted significantly.
I did a check with the program I've been using to calculate precise BPM since 2005 (yes, I made my first notecharts back then) and it said that the song was 108.00 BPM... Still BPM decimals are something that happens when the producer makes the desicion deliberately (really, really rare, as Jack stated before) or when the conversion between the CD track and the mp3 file obtained from that varies the sample rate (happens from time on time), having said that that's still a chance, and I'll do proper manual BPM calculation to check this... Still... The BPM value is the least important thing in my concern about this beatmap and it doesn't change the importance of the other points.

Skylish wrote:

> In Instrumental version, 3/16 is even clearer without the vocal. Sorry to say so again, this is beyond any common musical sense.
There's no 3/16 or 1/6 or whathever you want to call it... You check the waveform and then 1/6 is not precise. You still check the waveform at "3/16" and it is still not actually precise, so there goes your point... This song is not beyond common sense, it's just a generic midtempo-swing song, where the swing time is meant to be represented as as secuence of 8th then 16th note triplet per 8th note (osu!grid 1/6) this has always been done that way in rhythm game notecharting to assure a quality standard. The odd timing is the result of humanization, and therefore should not be taken on account when placing notes in a chart that is meant to be read as a musical score.

Your claim that this song is out of standards is just delusional an I think it's a worrying issue that people in charge of assuring the quality of beatmaps might be backing up you decision.
It's not a 3/14 song, that's for sure, I don't want to give details of my personal life on internet forums, but I think I should point out that I'm a musician for many years aside from other things, and I have asked opinions to other fellow musicians who have experience as well on rhythm games and someone of them were my former classmates, I took on consideration the fact that you told me that you were also a musician and told them; I got this "There's no way someone trained in music could believe that ever someone is gonna write a popular music piece using dotted sixteenths as subdivision"... And I think so as well.


DISCLAIMER: There are still notes in a swing song that may be played as regular 16th notes, so in that case you could also use 1/4 grid for some parts and 1/6 for others... That would mean that "technically" the song should be correctly snapped at 1/12 grid to represent these both timings, I wanted to state this because even though if you snap the song to 1/12 grid, the original meaning of the interpretation would be preserved, but we wouldn't be talking about 1/12 in the practice but instead of parts that use 1/6 and 1/4 (that's still something commonly seen in notecharting).


Skylish wrote:

> This map is not created for PP. This is a very serious accuse without any solid and concrete proof by stating that my timing is wrong.
That's what the some of the mappers I respect (and also other players) told me when they asked them opinions about this beatmap. I want to believe on your words because sincerely I really don't mean to harm you with any of this, I think this is wrong and therefore should be spoken of.

I got 100% of your points, and why you defend your beatmap so fiercely, I still think this kind of grid snapping is not up to the quality standards of a rhythm game notechart.

Surono wrote:

a rhythm game
What is wrong on wanting the people who have to check the quality of beatmaps do their work properly?

I really believe that this map being ranked like this is a mistake, if I didn't think that I wouldn't be posting here.


Having said that, I really want to read the opinion of someone from the Quality Assurance Team.
posted
understandable, have a nice day.
posted
Hi,

I was asked to look into this, though my perspective is somewhat dated on these matters. Timing stuff is fairly timeless (haha) and there's a few big issues with this set that I am surprised (and slightly horrified) were not adequately addressed before it hit Ranked.

To start, 3/16 is not a common measure, nor is it readily reproducible by the human ear. There is a distinct reason as to why 1/16 snap is marked in the editor with a violent red, non-toggleable "YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS FOR ANYTHING EVER" snap because it is essentially unnecessary in 99.999% of all use cases, and is historically only really used to apply accurate timing to syncopated or non-measure additional sounds in certain sets.

Ishukan Communication is an fairly simple and straightforward swing style song. Common sense dictates that 1/6 snap is indeed the standard use case for this, and with no musical variation to support the 3/16 argument currently in play (the song is not experimental, nor is it heavily syncopated, nor does it possess non-snapped or non-aligned sounds). Indeed, snapping the map to 1/6 as-is from a fresh download without touching timing produces a result that sounds immediately more correct than its current state. It also, as ARGENTINE DREAM states, shaves more than a 1.3 stars off the map's overall difficulty as calculated by the score processor.

That is hugely significant.

Player feedback readily reflects (from the disqus comments) that the map is considered widely too easy for the sort of SR it gives, and it is a more than plausible explanation that incorrect insistence on 3/16 is responsible for this. 3/16 may produce a result that is playable, but it is an incorrect result. This is compounded significantly by the 'complex' BPM timing (107.96) for reasons that I will explain below.

A track with 108 bpm has 555.556ms for each beat in the track. A track with 107.96 bpm has 555.761ms for each beat in the track. Scaling this down to 1/16 snap, we see that each snapped point represents a 34.7225ms interval at 108 bpm, and a 34.735ms difference at 107.96. Conversely, the interval at 1/6 is 92.60 ms at 108bpm, and 92.63 at 107.96 bpm. The differences seem infinitesimal, but when you consider that an incorrectly timed set using an "approximated" bpm (which complex or decimal place bpms are by their nature), this introduces a constant drift of essentially 30~ microseconds which elapses throughout the entire duration of the track, resulting in extremely subtle and often very frustrating drifts in accuracy which worsen significantly towards the end of the track, to the order of a 2.6ms total drift as felt by the player. At the later end of the track, using a 1/16 snap exposes an inaccuracy window that is almost 10% of the given division for that particular beat. Completely unacceptable.

That is but one reason why we do not use 1/16 anything.

From experience, there are a few explanations as to why a track like Ishukan Communication could be subject to this sort of drift. A distinct possibility is guff with the sampling rate when transcoding - this is unlikely in modern builds of many common encoders however. What I personally suspect is poor production given that this is a TV Size cut - there are perhaps very slightly uneven cuts between verses and the main chorus (to the order of less than a few milliseconds of difference between them) which gradually add up towards the end of the track to produce the difference that is cited as the reason for using an approximated complex bpm. Fixing this is as simple as resetting the bpm to 108 at the beginning of every major cut (ie from verse to verse or verse to chorus), likely only needed at the latter end of the track where it begins to unravel itself.

Timers with more experience with complex bpm tracks will likely have more useful suggestions on how to fix this particular issue, but there you go.

More importantly, the issues with this set were obviously not resolved sufficiently post disqualification. I wouldn't have been summoned in if they were.
posted
Due to the aforementioned issues and their severity and potential impact on play, this set has been unranked and will not return to qualified status until its timing and snapping issues have been fixed and verified by no less than three people.

Scores that have already been set will be lost.
posted
👀
posted

Ephemeral wrote:

Due to the aforementioned issues and their severity and potential impact on play, this set has been unranked and will not return to qualified status until its timing and snapping issues have been fixed and verified by no less than three people.

Scores that have already been set will be lost.
woah what year is this again
posted
l0l
posted
Owell
posted

ARGENTINE DREAM wrote:

The main problem is that this is a map with an odd time snap that makes SR calculation fail miserably at its job. Basically, if this map is ranked, then anyone can use odd time snaps to make pp rain rankable maps and therefore, that will support the idea that grinding pp easy is better than having fun and playing quality maps.

Ephemeral wrote:

It also, as ARGENTINE DREAM states, shaves more than a 1.3 stars off the map's overall difficulty as calculated by the score processor.

That is hugely significant.
isn't this a hint that the star rating formula should be looked into?
posted
not-nut'd rip the ppers XD
posted
REFORM THE PP RANKING SYSTEM
posted
568,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
11695,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
49485,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
76160,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
87264,555.555555555556,4,2,0,100,1,0
based off pishfati's initial timing but adjusted some offsets

to me this sounds mostly accurate

feel free to gather more opinions of more experienced and expert guys (i am not rofl)
posted
Drama in a taiko thread \:D/
since this got unranked, is there any reason to have "ravioli" in tags other than for the meme?
and yeah about the timing you should gather more opinions if you're still willing to push this forward
posted
In Skylish's defense, the original full-length Ishukan track is absolutely fucked as far as timing goes as well, so there's no error on his part from attempting to approximate it. We just need to use the "splice" method to reset the bpm before major verses or places where it begins to drift in this case, as the drift seems to be very inconsistent even across the source material. Some weird production stuff going on there.
posted
OMG... ;___________;
posted
Oh no!
A ranked beatmap got disqualified :(
posted

Ephemeral wrote:

In Skylish's defense, the original full-length Ishukan track is absolutely fucked as far as timing goes as well, so there's no error on his part from attempting to approximate it. We just need to use the "splice" method to reset the bpm before major verses or places where it begins to drift in this case, as the drift seems to be very inconsistent even across the source material. Some weird production stuff going on there.
Did Skylish make the cut himself or was a TV-size cut made by someone else? Because the cut may have exasterbated the timing issues in the full length song.

Besides that, because the original track has timing issues, Is Skylish necessarily wrong in his strange 3/16 timing if the source material has correspondingly terrible timing?

Regardless I think the culmination of all the timing issues with the song ACCIDENTALLY abuse the pp system. Yes it is a clear abuse of the pp system but it isn't intentional by anyone involved.
posted
timing is a happy thing

@BPM: To me, pishifat's timing (not the one Raiden posted) seems mostly better than Skylish's, I still don't think it's 100% perfect as a few beats still sounds slightly late to me, but they seem more neglegible than a few beats sounding more early in Skylish's.

@snapping: Even with Skylish's timing (which is earlier than pishi's in pmuch every spot) around half the vocals or more would sound late to me if they were snapped to 1/6 too, so I find 3/16 to be more accurate on every level. 1/6 can work perfectly fine as simplification (so don't tell Pho to redo everything in their map lol), but if Skylish wants it to be more precise I'm completely on their side.
Of course I'm not a Taiko-person and didn't really know how broken your pp-system is until now, so that aspect isn't for me to judge really, though I'd personally find it weird to avoid accuracy just for the sake of formulas that might be changed any time(?).

now to cut myself. φ(^ω^*)ノ✂


On a sidenote, none of this would be a problem if you mapped this way better version of the song too 8-)8-)8-)

 
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