Chorogons - Ishukan Communication(TV size) [Taiko]

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Raiden
That is the whole purpose of the modding scene: to have discussions and provide feedback for a map. Even more during Qualified period.
toara_fict
re qf gratz :3


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───▄▄██▌█ BEEP BEEP red votes from haters AGAIN
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▀(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀(@)(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀​▀▀▀▀(@)▀............


Why many red votes? So sad ;__;
Surono
rhythm is music, vocal is voice. yeah its rhythm game remember xd

toara_fict wrote:

re qf gratz :3


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───▄▄██▌█ BEEP BEEP red votes from haters AGAIN
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▀(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀(@)(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀​▀▀▀▀(@)▀............


Why many red votes? So sad ;__;
maybe they hates alien.. or italien...
yuzu__rinrin
re gratz Skylish ~ >w<

toara_fict wrote:

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───▄▄██▌█ BEEP BEEP red votes from haters AGAIN
███████▌█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄​▄▄▄▄▄▄▌
▀(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀(@)(@)▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀​▀▀▀▀(@)▀............


Why many red votes? So sad ;__;
milr_
becuz paparaparapapaprapapapara
Raiden
I gotta agree with Nardo here, even though it may be personal preference at the end of the day, there is a reason we intersubjectively agree to 1.4: optimal note separation and number of notes in the playfield per second.

Also can't see the logic behind the non-linearity in the ESV as Nardo mentioned as well. Inner Oni 1.4x Oni 1.4x Muzu 1.3x then Futsuu and Kantan 1.0x? Wouldn't it be more appropriate for beginners to scale linearly to show progress as they get better in playing? In the current scenario, they get a very big jump in Muzukashii's effective slider velocity and they might think they didn't get better at the game, they just can't read that SV.

Getting used to 3/16 is something players will do naturally, so the argument of "since Futsuu has no 3/16, it stays 1.00x" is not very convincing. All Muzus tend to introduce players to new rhythms/snaps and this is not really a different case.
gustavo015
I love this :D
_WWWWWW_WWWWWW_
I decided to post in here after a long chat with Skylish regarding my opinion over a Disqus post where I stated that this map doesn't fit the quality standards to be a ranked map.
My main concern was that this was a map intended to grind PP easily, and it is clear now, that wasn't considered in any stage of the mapping process since I understood Skylish point.


The main problem is that this is a map with an odd time snap that makes SR calculation fail miserably at its job. Basically, if this map is ranked, then anyone can use odd time snaps to make pp rain rankable maps and therefore, that will support the idea that grinding pp easy is better than having fun and playing quality maps.


Skylish stated that he is actually convinced that the song use "3/16" snap, which, to any musician put there is impossible to reproduce consciously... He tried to mark human interpretation as must as possible, but that at the cost of expecting players to copy these flaws as something precise, and that's actually anti-musical.

Rhythm games are based on rhythm, therefore rhythm theory is important to take into consideration. I think this kind of time snap wouldn't ever happen in any official chart from professional rhythm games.
When I asked Skylish he told me "this song is uncommon, it doesn't fit musical standards, it is an alien song" ... And I think that's wrong: This is a generic medium-paced swing song... That in music theory is represented in a rhythm of 16thnote-8thnote triplets, which are the equivalent to osu!grid's 1/6.
I liked the map, but I would like it more if it was correctly snapped to the intended timing, just like a quality standard should be. In this case, that's 1/6.


I also noted that the BPM is kinda odd as well, since the map's got 107.96 BPM, and the song is actually made by a DAW software with perfect timing and it's exactly 108 bpm.

Here I have the two harder diffs snapped to 1/6 and at 108 bpm so you can check them:
https://puu.sh/x88Gs/b00e8242c4.rar (not the same link I left on disqus because I haven't corrected bpm in those)


Why are some vocal notes that are left out of the grid... Well, probably the producer forgot to heavily quantize the mix in the end or something like that, but you can't try to emulate accurately these human flaws, because the actual player hand is what produce these at the gameplay.

Skylish told me that the song is intended to be in "3/16" since everything was so concise in that span... So he asked me to take some proof into the matter.

I took the time to download the actual instrumetal (off-vocal) version of the song so you can see that the instrumental is snapped correctly to 1/6 (even the synth that does the same melodic line as the vocals).
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/653015 (not playable, just to listen to the rhythm and analyze in the editor)

I regret not having been able to discuss this matter in the early stages of modding, I know what Skylish must be feeling when someone criticizes his map like this, but I still think this is necessary for the community in general.


Having said this I would like the mapper, nominator and players in general to state their opinions.
Faputa

ARGENTINE DREAM wrote:


Having said this I would like the mapper, nominator and players in general to state their opinions.
From players and mappers' view, at the very least I believe that the BPM should not be 107.96.
Songs these days use digitised instrument to play, plus the vocals, so it would be nonsense if the music creator decided to type in 107.96 bpm instead of 108 bpm, and 3/16 time songs should neither be a Japanese pop song nor a song of just 108 bpm. Those songs generally appear in 21st centuries' instrumental, but as the whole music community features easy tempos for pop song these days, they will never even be approved to be the music content of some media contents like this anime for example
_MMMMMM_MMMMMM_

ARGENTINE DREAM wrote:

I decided to post in here after a long chat with Skylish regarding my opinion over a Disqus post where I stated that this map doesn't fit the quality standards to be a ranked map.
My main concern was that this was a map intended to grind PP easily, and it is clear now, that wasn't considered in any stage of the mapping process since I understood Skylish point.


The main problem is that this is a map with an odd time snap that makes SR calculation fail miserably at its job. Basically, if this map is ranked, then anyone can use odd time snaps to make pp rain rankable maps and therefore, that will support the idea that grinding pp easy is better than having fun and playing quality maps.


Skylish stated that he is actually convinced that the song use "3/16" snap, which, to any musician put there is impossible to reproduce consciously... He tried to mark human interpretation as must as possible, but that at the cost of expecting players to copy these flaws as something precise, and that's actually anti-musical.

Rhythm games are based on rhythm, therefore rhythm theory is important to take into consideration. I think this kind of time snap wouldn't ever happen in any official chart from professional rhythm games.
When I asked Skylish he told me "this song is uncommon, it doesn't fit musical standards, it is an alien song" ... And I think that's wrong: This is a generic medium-paced swing song... That in music theory is represented in a rhythm of 16thnote-8thnote triplets, which are the equivalent to osu!grid's 1/6.
I liked the map, but I would like it more if it was correctly snapped to the intended timing, just like a quality standard should be. In this case, that's 1/6.


I also noted that the BPM is kinda odd as well, since the map's got 107.96 BPM, and the song is actually made by a DAW software with perfect timing and it's exactly 108 bpm.

Here I have the two harder diffs snapped to 1/6 and at 108 bpm so you can check them:
https://puu.sh/x88Gs/b00e8242c4.rar (not the same link I left on disqus because I haven't corrected bpm in those)


Why are some vocal notes that are left out of the grid... Well, probably the producer forgot to heavily quantize the mix in the end or something like that, but you can't try to emulate accurately these human flaws, because the actual player hand is what produce these at the gameplay.

Skylish told me that the song is intended to be in "3/16" since everything was so concise in that span... So he asked me to take some proof into the matter.

I took the time to download the actual instrumetal (off-vocal) version of the song so you can see that the instrumental is snapped correctly to 1/6 (even the synth that does the same melodic line as the vocals).
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/653015 (not playable, just to listen to the rhythm and analyze in the editor)

I regret not having been able to discuss this matter in the early stages of modding, I know what Skylish must be feeling when someone criticizes his map like this, but I still think this is necessary for the community in general.


Having said this I would like the mapper, nominator and players in general to state their opinions.
I strongly agree with you. To be honest, the last difficulty far from being 5* seems 3* and maybe a few more decimals. This is pure pp farming. And these things only generate that there are players with more ranking than they deserve. Also the bpm is inaccurate.
Well, is there anything else to say? After everything Dream said, nah. I am intrigued to know what action are going to take regarding this beatmap.
Topic Starter
Skylish
No action will be further taken as the arguements above are still invalid:

> BPM is not stable 108. Check the very last few seconds you will figure that the notes are shifted significantly.

> In Instrumental version, 3/16 is even clearer without the vocal. Sorry to say so again, this is beyond any common musical sense.

> This map is not created for PP. This is a very serious accuse without any solid and concrete proof by stating that my timing is wrong.
Surono
a rhythm game
_WWWWWW_WWWWWW_

Skylish wrote:

No action will be further taken as the arguements above are still invalid:
That's not something you can decide on your own.

jack1817 wrote:

so it would be nonsense if the music creator decided to type in 107.96 bpm instead of 108 bpm

un-plugged wrote:

Also the bpm is inaccurate.

Skylish wrote:

> BPM is not stable 108. Check the very last few seconds you will figure that the notes are shifted significantly.
I did a check with the program I've been using to calculate precise BPM since 2005 (yes, I made my first notecharts back then) and it said that the song was 108.00 BPM... Still BPM decimals are something that happens when the producer makes the desicion deliberately (really, really rare, as Jack stated before) or when the conversion between the CD track and the mp3 file obtained from that varies the sample rate (happens from time on time), having said that that's still a chance, and I'll do proper manual BPM calculation to check this... Still... The BPM value is the least important thing in my concern about this beatmap and it doesn't change the importance of the other points.

Skylish wrote:

> In Instrumental version, 3/16 is even clearer without the vocal. Sorry to say so again, this is beyond any common musical sense.
There's no 3/16 or 1/6 or whathever you want to call it... You check the waveform and then 1/6 is not precise. You still check the waveform at "3/16" and it is still not actually precise, so there goes your point... This song is not beyond common sense, it's just a generic midtempo-swing song, where the swing time is meant to be represented as as secuence of 8th then 16th note triplet per 8th note (osu!grid 1/6) this has always been done that way in rhythm game notecharting to assure a quality standard. The odd timing is the result of humanization, and therefore should not be taken on account when placing notes in a chart that is meant to be read as a musical score.

Your claim that this song is out of standards is just delusional an I think it's a worrying issue that people in charge of assuring the quality of beatmaps might be backing up you decision.
It's not a 3/14 song, that's for sure, I don't want to give details of my personal life on internet forums, but I think I should point out that I'm a musician for many years aside from other things, and I have asked opinions to other fellow musicians who have experience as well on rhythm games and someone of them were my former classmates, I took on consideration the fact that you told me that you were also a musician and told them; I got this "There's no way someone trained in music could believe that ever someone is gonna write a popular music piece using dotted sixteenths as subdivision"... And I think so as well.


DISCLAIMER: There are still notes in a swing song that may be played as regular 16th notes, so in that case you could also use 1/4 grid for some parts and 1/6 for others... That would mean that "technically" the song should be correctly snapped at 1/12 grid to represent these both timings, I wanted to state this because even though if you snap the song to 1/12 grid, the original meaning of the interpretation would be preserved, but we wouldn't be talking about 1/12 in the practice but instead of parts that use 1/6 and 1/4 (that's still something commonly seen in notecharting).


Skylish wrote:

> This map is not created for PP. This is a very serious accuse without any solid and concrete proof by stating that my timing is wrong.
That's what the some of the mappers I respect (and also other players) told me when they asked them opinions about this beatmap. I want to believe on your words because sincerely I really don't mean to harm you with any of this, I think this is wrong and therefore should be spoken of.

I got 100% of your points, and why you defend your beatmap so fiercely, I still think this kind of grid snapping is not up to the quality standards of a rhythm game notechart.

Surono wrote:

a rhythm game
What is wrong on wanting the people who have to check the quality of beatmaps do their work properly?

I really believe that this map being ranked like this is a mistake, if I didn't think that I wouldn't be posting here.


Having said that, I really want to read the opinion of someone from the Quality Assurance Team.
Surono
understandable, have a nice day.
Ephemeral
Hi,

I was asked to look into this, though my perspective is somewhat dated on these matters. Timing stuff is fairly timeless (haha) and there's a few big issues with this set that I am surprised (and slightly horrified) were not adequately addressed before it hit Ranked.

To start, 3/16 is not a common measure, nor is it readily reproducible by the human ear. There is a distinct reason as to why 1/16 snap is marked in the editor with a violent red, non-toggleable "YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS FOR ANYTHING EVER" snap because it is essentially unnecessary in 99.999% of all use cases, and is historically only really used to apply accurate timing to syncopated or non-measure additional sounds in certain sets.

Ishukan Communication is an fairly simple and straightforward swing style song. Common sense dictates that 1/6 snap is indeed the standard use case for this, and with no musical variation to support the 3/16 argument currently in play (the song is not experimental, nor is it heavily syncopated, nor does it possess non-snapped or non-aligned sounds). Indeed, snapping the map to 1/6 as-is from a fresh download without touching timing produces a result that sounds immediately more correct than its current state. It also, as ARGENTINE DREAM states, shaves more than a 1.3 stars off the map's overall difficulty as calculated by the score processor.

That is hugely significant.

Player feedback readily reflects (from the disqus comments) that the map is considered widely too easy for the sort of SR it gives, and it is a more than plausible explanation that incorrect insistence on 3/16 is responsible for this. 3/16 may produce a result that is playable, but it is an incorrect result. This is compounded significantly by the 'complex' BPM timing (107.96) for reasons that I will explain below.

A track with 108 bpm has 555.556ms for each beat in the track. A track with 107.96 bpm has 555.761ms for each beat in the track. Scaling this down to 1/16 snap, we see that each snapped point represents a 34.7225ms interval at 108 bpm, and a 34.735ms difference at 107.96. Conversely, the interval at 1/6 is 92.60 ms at 108bpm, and 92.63 at 107.96 bpm. The differences seem infinitesimal, but when you consider that an incorrectly timed set using an "approximated" bpm (which complex or decimal place bpms are by their nature), this introduces a constant drift of essentially 30~ microseconds which elapses throughout the entire duration of the track, resulting in extremely subtle and often very frustrating drifts in accuracy which worsen significantly towards the end of the track, to the order of a 2.6ms total drift as felt by the player. At the later end of the track, using a 1/16 snap exposes an inaccuracy window that is almost 10% of the given division for that particular beat. Completely unacceptable.

That is but one reason why we do not use 1/16 anything.

From experience, there are a few explanations as to why a track like Ishukan Communication could be subject to this sort of drift. A distinct possibility is guff with the sampling rate when transcoding - this is unlikely in modern builds of many common encoders however. What I personally suspect is poor production given that this is a TV Size cut - there are perhaps very slightly uneven cuts between verses and the main chorus (to the order of less than a few milliseconds of difference between them) which gradually add up towards the end of the track to produce the difference that is cited as the reason for using an approximated complex bpm. Fixing this is as simple as resetting the bpm to 108 at the beginning of every major cut (ie from verse to verse or verse to chorus), likely only needed at the latter end of the track where it begins to unravel itself.

Timers with more experience with complex bpm tracks will likely have more useful suggestions on how to fix this particular issue, but there you go.

More importantly, the issues with this set were obviously not resolved sufficiently post disqualification. I wouldn't have been summoned in if they were.
Ephemeral
Due to the aforementioned issues and their severity and potential impact on play, this set has been unranked and will not return to qualified status until its timing and snapping issues have been fixed and verified by no less than three people.

Scores that have already been set will be lost.
Xayah
👀
Nao

Ephemeral wrote:

Due to the aforementioned issues and their severity and potential impact on play, this set has been unranked and will not return to qualified status until its timing and snapping issues have been fixed and verified by no less than three people.

Scores that have already been set will be lost.
woah what year is this again
cyprianz5
l0l
Arrival
Owell
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