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Geometrical and square jumps

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NixXSkate
Just think of them as lines and switch the line up if you're still having problems. If you have issues with both ways then you're not focusing enough on the current line you're playing and you're thinking about your aim too far ahead. This is usually the problem if you're not used to lower AR or higher density playing. How I view line patterns for each different polygon won't help everyone because the specific notes I have more trouble with may be different than the ones you have more trouble with, or may differ depending on the size of the polygon.
N0thingSpecial
I just snap the shit out of it, stay sexy and snap every single note, treat each note as a single jump.
Topic Starter
1Alone

NixXSkate wrote:

This is usually the problem if you're not used to lower AR or higher density playing.
Damn you really pinpoint my problem there lol. Its true that I'm no longer used to playing low AR, any AR below 8 I just HR/DT the f*ck out of it. Is this bad? Should I really get used to lower AR's? For density yeah there's not really much I can do about it unless playing more.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

I just snap the shit out of it, stay sexy and snap every single note, treat each note as a single jump.
I'd say you and your mouse is sexy ;) . When the jumps is short with a slow AR and dense as f*ck I make curves, don't know why tho. It's how my brain works lol

F1r3tar wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/12483
Thanks, this ones are the type I'm looking for. Too bad it's hard to find maps that uses these kinds of mapping techniques. Do you have some more?
Infevo
It's much easier to snap with tablet actually for 2 reasons. For one, there for each point on your screen there is a point on your tablet. It's just a matter of muscle memory in that regard. And for the other, you can tap/snap right onto the circles and stop the pen's momentum while mice are much harder to control in that regard. You'll get it down the more you play. Thinking in patterns isn't necessary, if useful at all. At a certain point, you won't be thinking much at all anyway...
Sayorie

Infevo wrote:

while mice are much harder to control in that regard.
Depends on your settings. My mouse is set to 250 dpi and it feels snappier than how the tablet feels. However sometimes it's too snappy that I can't adjust when I'm about to mis-aim, unlike the freedom of movement you have with the tablet.
Playing above 1200dpi and my aim goes literally everywhere.
Infevo

Sayorie wrote:

Infevo wrote:

while mice are much harder to control in that regard.
Depends on your settings. My mouse is set to 250 dpi and it feels snappier than how the tablet feels. However sometimes it's too snappy that I can't adjust when I'm about to mis-aim, unlike the freedom of movement you have with the tablet.
Playing above 1200dpi and my aim goes literally everywhere.
all i said is that mice are much heavier and due have more momentum during quick turns. makes it more diffucult to snap even with control mouse pads. pens can be hovered 100% and still controlled much easier. by tapping onto the tablet you can eliminate even the little remaining momentum. it's just not comparable to mouse play.

telling merely about your dpi is meaningless btw since there are tons of correlating settings like resolution, your system's aim acceleration and speed, pixel skipping, kind of surface, laser quality, osu!'s cursor speed and others. there are people who use 600dpi and others who play @3200dpi and both have the same effective mouse sensitivity.
Nattsun

1Alone wrote:

I tried doing this and I can catch probably up to 3 beats, but then I started to get off sync because my eyes were to slow to track them lol, + I get tensed right after that 3 beats (I don't know wtf is wrong with me seriously). But yeah, I try to play some more geometrical maps. Do you have any maps that's good to train your reading for these shapes?
Focus on the first 2 notes and the rest will come by itself. Snap to every note! From what I see, people who struggle with those jumps don't snap fast enough and their cursor or click hand gets out of sync with the beat. Every time you are not fast enough you'll end up "chasing" the beat, that's probably the reason why you can't keep up with more than 3 notes cuz you are slowing down from note to note.

PS: There are some practice maps with gemetrical jumps by the way.
Sayorie

Infevo wrote:

all i said is that mice are much heavier and due have more momentum during quick turns. makes it more diffucult to snap even with control mouse pads. pens can be hovered 100% and still controlled much easier. by tapping onto the tablet you can eliminate even the little remaining momentum. it's just not comparable to mouse play.

telling merely about your dpi is meaningless btw since there are tons of correlating settings like resolution, your system's aim acceleration and speed, pixel skipping, kind of surface, laser quality, osu!'s cursor speed and others. there are people who use 600dpi and others who play @3200dpi and both have the same effective mouse sensitivity.
Ehhh no. Starting from mouse was easier compared to tablet, and mouse was easier to control when I started playing. However I stuck with tablet because of the freedom of movement. Why mouse is more stable? Physics. A wide area of support and low height makes it incredibly stable but in exchange has a low freedom of movement.
Nattsun

Sayorie wrote:

Infevo wrote:

all i said is that mice are much heavier and due have more momentum during quick turns. makes it more diffucult to snap even with control mouse pads. pens can be hovered 100% and still controlled much easier. by tapping onto the tablet you can eliminate even the little remaining momentum. it's just not comparable to mouse play.

telling merely about your dpi is meaningless btw since there are tons of correlating settings like resolution, your system's aim acceleration and speed, pixel skipping, kind of surface, laser quality, osu!'s cursor speed and others. there are people who use 600dpi and others who play @3200dpi and both have the same effective mouse sensitivity.
Ehhh no. Starting from mouse was easier compared to tablet, and mouse was easier to control when I started playing. However I stuck with tablet because of the freedom of movement. Why mouse is more stable? Physics. A wide area of support and low height makes it incredibly stable but in exchange has a low freedom of movement.
May I quote Angelsim? "If you think mouse is equal to tablet f*** you." 8-)
Yolshka
You can try the highest diff on this : https://osu.ppy.sh/s/17852

I don't know about the shapes but I belive that the movement is not as intuitive so maybe it'll pose a threat, but still easy enough.
Give it a go, maybe share results.
Topic Starter
1Alone

Cirno9 wrote:

1Alone wrote:

I tried doing this and I can catch probably up to 3 beats, but then I started to get off sync because my eyes were to slow to track them lol, + I get tensed right after that 3 beats (I don't know wtf is wrong with me seriously). But yeah, I try to play some more geometrical maps. Do you have any maps that's good to train your reading for these shapes?
Focus on the first 2 notes and the rest will come by itself. Snap to every note! From what I see, people who struggle with those jumps don't snap fast enough and their cursor or click hand gets out of sync with the beat. Every time you are not fast enough you'll end up "chasing" the beat, that's probably the reason why you can't keep up with more than 3 notes cuz you are slowing down from note to note.

PS: There are some practice maps with gemetrical jumps by the way.
I tried but after the 3 beats I kinda aim it a little bit far off if I snap it. And probably right after I missed the 4th one is where I start to tense lol
Thank you! I'll try searching for it.

Cirno9 wrote:

May I quote Angelsim? "If you think mouse is equal to tablet f*** you." 8-)
^ Lol I agree. My mouse sometimes reaches the edge of my mousepad even though I started a song with the cursor in the center of screen with my mouse at the centre of my mousepad, and before I knew it my cursor is on the center while my mouse is on the edge of my mousepad (<probably because I play with both wrist and arm though lol. NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY ACCELERATION ON). I'm sure tablet doesn't have these kinds of problems

Yolshka wrote:

You can try the highest diff on this : https://osu.ppy.sh/s/17852

I don't know about the shapes but I belive that the movement is not as intuitive so maybe it'll pose a threat, but still easy enough.
Give it a go, maybe share results.
Haha yeah I can pass them easily, but that half octagons thingy in that song is really blocking me from fcing this song lol. There's one with 4 beats and 7 beats in there. But thanks! this'll be a great practice maps too. If you have some more of these please share :D
Nattsun

1Alone wrote:

Cirno9 wrote:

May I quote Angelsim? "If you think mouse is equal to tablet f*** you." 8-)
^ Lol I agree. My mouse sometimes reaches the edge of my mousepad even though I started a song with the cursor in the center of screen with my mouse at the centre of my mousepad, and before I knew it my cursor is on the center while my mouse is on the edge of my mousepad (<probably because I play with both wrist and arm though lol. NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY ACCELERATION ON). I'm sure tablet doesn't have these kinds of problems.
That's called mousedrifting by the way. The lower the DPI the more your mouse drifts away. Using your arm actually helps, but you'll still drift.

I doubt that tablet has no downsides, but the locket area and no drifting is enough reason for me to switch to tablet soon.
Kyrari

Cirno9 wrote:

I doubt that tablet has no downsides, but the locket area and no drifting is enough reason for me to switch to tablet soon.
rip yet another mouse player :(
Topic Starter
1Alone

Cirno9 wrote:

That's called mousedrifting by the way. The lower the DPI the more your mouse drifts away. Using your arm actually helps, but you'll still drift.

I doubt that tablet has no downsides, but the locket area and no drifting is enough reason for me to switch to tablet soon.
Oh so this thing is apparently a thing, I thought I'm the only one with this problem lol.

VanillaSandvich wrote:

Cirno9 wrote:

I doubt that tablet has no downsides, but the locket area and no drifting is enough reason for me to switch to tablet soon.
rip yet another mouse player :(
"We're gonna miss you Cirno9, you've put up a good fight"
#mousemasterrace
Nattsun

1Alone wrote:

Cirno9 wrote:

That's called mousedrifting by the way. The lower the DPI the more your mouse drifts away. Using your arm actually helps, but you'll still drift.

I doubt that tablet has no downsides, but the locket area and no drifting is enough reason for me to switch to tablet soon.
Oh so this thing is apparently a thing, I thought I'm the only one with this problem lol.
Every mouse player has to deal with it and there is no fix to it, you'll get used to it or tired of it.

VanillaSandvich wrote:

Cirno9 wrote:

I doubt that tablet has no downsides, but the locket area and no drifting is enough reason for me to switch to tablet soon.
rip yet another mouse player :(
"We're gonna miss you Cirno9, you've put up a good fight"
#mousemasterrace

I'm sorry to disappoint you :c

R.I.P. Cirno9 09/XX/2016-probably tomorrow
Sayorie

Cirno9 wrote:

May I quote Angelsim? "If you think mouse is equal to tablet f*** you." 8-)
When did I say mouse is equal to tablet?
I just said that mouse is naturally snappier. 8-)
Infevo

Sayorie wrote:

I just said that mouse is naturally snappier. 8-)
Which is a false assertion and no argument. Can you turn a motorcycle quicker than an truck?
Why don't people use mice-like devices for drawing and writing if your assertion was right? Why do most top osu! players use tablet and not mouse when snapping is one of the most important aiming elements?
N0thingSpecial
This has got to be a misunderstanding of what define snappy movement, cause it's nearly impossible to type that out with a straight face.
Sayorie

Infevo wrote:

Which is a false assertion and no argument.
Read again. I have stated my basis before.

Infevo wrote:

Why don't people use mice-like devices for drawing and writing if your assertion was right?
Because you don't really need to snap that much when drawing? Pen tablets are literally like pens for drawing. You are changing the premise.

Infevo wrote:

Why do most top osu! players use tablet and not mouse when snapping is one of the most important aiming elements?
Like I said before, the freedom of movement and perks of absolute positioning offered by the tablet is more favorable to most players.


lol you actually used those buzzwords like assertion and argument
Infevo
Read again. I have stated my basis before.
your "basis" is an opinion. a stupid one at that.


Because you don't really need to snap that much when drawing? Pen tablets are literally like pens for drawing. You are changing the premise.
more assertions which are false. of course, you need control when drawing and writing and the least amount of momentum so you can snap whenever you need to. again, just show me one person who can write in decent calligraphy as efficiently as someone with a pen, brush or pencil.

Like I said before, the freedom of movement and perks of absolute positioning offered by the tablet is more favorable to most players.
absolute positioning in combination with least amount of momentum so that you can snap with no effort at all is why tablet is being preferred. 'freedom of movement' doesn't really mean anything.

lol you actually used those buzzwords like assertion and argument
again, not an argument. and sure i will use these "buzzwords" (whatever that is supposed to mean). how else am i supposed to declare that you were not presenting an argument?
Sayorie


Infevo wrote:

your "basis" is an opinion. a stupid one at that.
Hypocrisy. "Stupid" is also an opinion. You can't invalidate what I said.

Infevo wrote:

more assertions which are false. of course, you need control when drawing and writing and the least amount of momentum so you can snap whenever you need to. again, just show me one person who can write in decent calligraphy as efficiently as someone with a pen, brush or pencil.
Your statement above moves the discussion to external uses of the devices, and it's an entirely different topic.

"least amount of momentum so you can snap" is wrong. Momentum is mass x velocity, and given that the mass stays the same, you are implying that you need the least amount of velocity to snap.

I started discussing how the mouse feels snappier in certain settings and you presented your own argument disputing my claim. I respect that.
Quoting you from before,
makes it more diffucult to snap even with control mouse pads. pens can be hovered 100% and still controlled much easier. by tapping onto the tablet you can eliminate even the little remaining momentum. it's just not comparable to mouse play.
Assuming that "snapping" is how "angular" or "sharp" the change of movement is at a certain point, a larger inertia from the relatively heavier mouse inhibits more variable movement compared to the tablet. If this is the case, then it is up to the preference of the player to choose the more stable mouse or the more versatile and "free" pen tablet. This is science, so don't give me a purely subjective rebuttal.

There is a flaw in your follow-up however,

Infevo wrote:

telling merely about your dpi is meaningless btw since there are tons of correlating settings like resolution, your system's aim acceleration and speed, pixel skipping, kind of surface, laser quality, osu!'s cursor speed and others.
As it doesn't counter my claim at all.

Infevo wrote:

absolute positioning in combination with least amount of momentum so that you can snap with no effort at all is why tablet is being preferred. 'freedom of movement' doesn't really mean anything.
Freedom of movement in tablet means everything because there is no friction and normal force acting on the hovering pen unlike the mouse.
"least amount of momentum" wrong again

N0thingSpecial
I think the snap with no effort part is true but that also implies your movement is more susceptible external force which usually means that snapping from one circle to another is more shaky and unstable, which is very apparent in high bpm maps (keep in mind this has nothing to do with how good your aim is)
Sayorie

N0thingSpecial wrote:

I think the snap with no effort part is true but that also implies your movement is more susceptible external force which usually means that snapping from one circle to another is more shaky and unstable, which is very apparent in high bpm maps (keep in mind this has nothing to do with how good your aim is)
That's my point, snapping using a movement with little resistance makes it shaky and unstable. I had this experience when I started playing with the tablet, and I resorted to hybrid hover and drag because snapping is hard when fully hovering. Mouse on the other hand moves in a straight line most of the time, and turns feel more angular.
Sayorie
To be fair, I'll support his own claims too.

What you meant by snapping without effort (and mainly the reason why you feel that the tablet is snappier)—is due the very light weight of the pen compared to the mouse and also considerably lower friction, thus allows you to easily increase the velocity of your movement. Even with a smaller mass, a significantly higher velocity may contribute to higher momentum, and thus making it snap easier.

There you go.
Infevo
Momentum is mass x velocity, and given that the mass stays the same, you are implying that you need the least amount of velocity to snap.
pretty sure mice usually are heavier than pens.

Infevo wrote:
telling merely about your dpi is meaningless btw since there are tons of correlating settings like resolution, your system's aim acceleration and speed, pixel skipping, kind of surface, laser quality, osu!'s cursor speed and others.
As it doesn't counter my claim at all.
that's a different topic.

This is science, so don't give me a purely subjective rebuttal.
"This is science" is not an argument. Neither is a claim an argument if you don't have reason and evidence to support it. Nice straw man btw. just take care with those stones in your glass house...

Freedom of movement in tablet means everything because there is no friction and normal force acting on the hovering pen unlike the mouse.
"least amount of momentum" wrong again
'means everything' is not an argument
'wrong again' is another assertion

and again, will you dispute that momentum with a pen is lower than with a mouse? you can move pens much quicker and force them into standstill than you could ever with an average mouse in comparison. that's your science you were trying to reference right there.
just give me a break already. you really are a physics student? should've picked up social sciences or something with much lower requirements on iq. physics is clearly not for you.
Sayorie
Hey, you're trying to find faults in my statements and not discussing about jumps and snaps at all.

Also did you read my latest post before this? You're targeting me now, and that's not helping with the discussion.

Also you're misunderstanding me so hard.



Infevo wrote:

pretty sure mice usually are heavier than pens.


I was referring to your claim that "you need the least amount of momentum to snap" when given that you can't change the mass of a single device, but you can change its velocity, a lesser momentum and a constant mass means lesser velocity. Understand?

Infevo wrote:

you can move pens much quicker and force them into standstill than you could ever with an average mouse in comparison.
That's inertia, and that's why I supported your claim in my last post.
Infevo
I was referring to your claim that "you need the least amount of momentum to snap" when given that you can't change the mass of a single device, but you can change its velocity, a lesser momentum and a constant mass means lesser velocity. Understand?
I don't know what you're talking about. What is incorrect about my claim that snapping is easier with less momentum?? Of course, you can't change the weight of a device (unless you have a mouse with adjustable weights which still would be heavier than a pen). This is besides the point. You can reduce the weight of your utilized device by SWITCHING the device from mouse to pen. And that's what we are actually talking about. Velocity/speed remains the same since the maps you play optimally should not be dictated/influenced by your setup/playstyle.
And don't pretend I wouldn't understand something when you're clearly the one who cant provide a decent rebuttal or even argument to begin with. It's getting tedious and infuriating...

Again, you need much less friction and force to bring a pen to halt @speed x than you would need for an average mouse at the same speed. You won't honestly dispute this, will you???
Sayorie
LOL why would you get frustrated? I'm having a blast with this discussion.

discussion here
Why would you use two different masses on one single momentum equation?
We're talking about the momentum of a single movement, and you only need one mass because we're talking about the object moving, may it be tablet or mouse.
Switching between objects does not translate into a single movement, and you can't make an equation out of it because it doesn't make fucking sense.

Your full quote goes here:
"of course, you need control when drawing and writing and the least amount of momentum so you can snap whenever you need to. again, just show me one person who can write in decent calligraphy as efficiently as someone with a pen, brush or pencil."

oh so you're talking about the pen, right? So let's put the pen's mass into the equation.

so you said least momentum right?
So when momentum's value is lowered while mass is the same, then velocity is lowered too.
But slow movement will not make it snappy. Understand?

Your statement pertains to the relation of momentum to snapping in general, not the relation of momentum and snapping in different devices, which comes to another different equation,


Infevo wrote:

you're clearly the one who cant provide a decent rebuttal or even argument to begin with.
LOL, and if that might be the case, t least i'm not attacking personally or citing faults in arguments without contribution to discussion like what you do.

Cheers.
Infevo
Why would you use two different masses on one single momentum equation?
We are comparing two devices and, thus, 2 equations.

So when momentum's value is lowered while mass is the same, then velocity is lowered too.
But slow movement will not make it snappy. Understand?
At this point, I have to assume you're trolling. Especially since you, again, ask me if I'd "understand?". You don't even understand a simply momentum formula. Why would velocity have to decrease along with mass if you want less momentum? Are you fucking retarded?

Your statement pertains to the relation of momentum to snapping in general, not the relation of momentum and snapping in different devices, which comes to another different equation,
In order to compare snapping (dependent on momentum) between 2 devices we need to establish a general understanding of the rule around momentum. This is how scientific arguments usually look like.

btw. v_1 = v_2

LOL, and if that might be the case, t least i'm not attacking personally or citing faults in arguments without contribution to discussion like what you do.
It would be much easier not to consider you a retard if you were not one.
Sayorie

Infevo wrote:

Why would velocity have to decrease along with mass if you want less momentum?
I see. I'll stop now. There's no point anymore.

I asked my professor and said you're quite wrong there. You're missing the whole point, and misunderstanding lots of things. But I can't keep this up any longer, just want to tell you know that I'm not a retard.

honest rant
You presented some good points at first and I admit I over-exemplified some of my previous claims, but the moment you went personal, you went out and blasted some inconsistent statements and calling me a retard. Well, fuck you, I know how to keep up a discussion and I'm open to any faults in my side, but you're just so fucking stupid and misinterpreting every single thing I say. You don't even agree a single bit, which shows how repulsive you are to the ideas I present and just want to fling shit towards me. Fuck off, you uncultured shit.
Infevo
I asked my professor and said you're quite wrong there. You're missing the whole point, and misunderstanding lots of things. But I can't keep this up any longer
Nothing new here. Just saying I am wrong and moving on. And the mere fact you had to ask your professor over something that trivial tells me a lot about your intellect. You probably asked him the wrong question anyway and misrepresented the whole discussion.

Try refuting an argument for once instead of providing more ridiculous assertions. Telling someone that he is wrong is not an argument.

some inconsistent statements
point them out for a change and display how they are inconsistent. not once did you do that.

You don't even agree a single bit, which shows how repulsive you are to the ideas I present and just want to fling shit towards me. Fuck off, you uncultured shit.
Why would I agree to something that is provably wrong? And why would I behave civilized towards somebody who keeps telling me I am wrong without proving how and finish a claim with "understand?"? Fkn troll...

Uncultured. Prefer to be "uncultured" over mentally retarded.
Sayorie
Keep going, Infevo.

Holy shit that was fun.
Infevo

Sayorie wrote:

Keep going, Infevo.

Holy shit that was fun.
Enjoy your social studies degree once they kicked you out.
N0thingSpecial
OK holy shit you're both too ignorant. adding to sayorie said, mouse had a bigger mass than a pen which means mouse is more resistant towards acceleration (change in direction of movement and speed), which means it would require more force to snap a mouse compared to a pen, under the condition that the change use the same amount of time yes common sense would tell you it is easier to fling your pen around which is theoretically true, but it's practically speaking that's just a small part of a bigger picture. since pen has a much smaller mass, moving your pen in straight line requires movement too precise you'll end up using more force keeping it in track in addition to applying force to move it towards the next circle, making the movement less snappy.

Yes if you're doing a contest on "how good you can aim 350bpm jumps" then tablet would probably win, but if you're generalizing movement as a whole mouse would appear more snappy and steady
Sayorie
im so sorry senpai im a retard

On the other hand, someone got mad and started saying shit, so I agree with N0thingSpecial for this.

Anyway square jumps are fun until they turn into a tornado.
Infevo

N0thingSpecial wrote:

yes common sense would tell you it is easier to fling your pen around which is theoretically true, but it's practically speaking that's just a small part of a bigger picture. since pen has a much smaller mass, moving your pen in straight line requires movement too precise you'll end up using more force keeping it in track in addition to applying force to move it towards the next circle, making the movement less snappy.
This doesn't make any sense. Why would you need more force for less mass @the same speed. You almost need no force at all to stop a pen @desired location and turn it instantly. Just a tiny bit of friction is sufficiently enough to halt a pen perfectly in an instant from full speed hover by tapping the tip onto the tablet and eliminating all momentum. try doing that with a mouse. I mean, we clearly have a different understanding of 'common sense'.
Topic Starter
1Alone
So apparently arguing is one of the beauties in the forums I guess lol. Got 2 threads already that I made where they could just go on and on about their opinion.

Oh don't mind me, I'm just lurking around here lol. Please enjoy the arena I provided ;)
Sayorie
This is as civilized as you can get. You haven't seen G&R in its worst form yet. ;^)
N0thingSpecial

1Alone wrote:

So apparently arguing is one of the beauties in the forums I guess lol. Got 2 threads already that I made where they could just go on and on about their opinion.

Oh don't mind me, I'm just lurking around here lol. Please enjoy the arena I provided ;)
you haven't seen the worst of it

Infevo wrote:

This doesn't make any sense. Why would you need more force for less mass @the same speed. You almost need no force at all to stop a pen @desired location and turn it instantly. Just a tiny bit of friction is sufficiently enough to halt a pen perfectly in an instant from full speed hover by tapping the tip onto the tablet and eliminating all momentum. try doing that with a mouse. I mean, we clearly have a different understanding of 'common sense'.
Ok let me lay things out in bullet points cause clearly you never really tried to understand other people's perspectives,
1) I agree, never have I disagree with you
2) Pen snaps faster cause it's lighter, speed is the reason you say tablet is snappier
3) Mouse snaps cleaner cause it's heavier and only requires simple motor skills to move it, cleanliness is the reason me and Sayorie say mouse is snappier

It's really just different interpretation of snapping, the definition of snapping was a topic of discussion every now and then and at this point I'm growing tired of it.

If you still have problem understanding my perspective, put on a skin with a long cursor trail (recent cookiezi skins have them), download this map and look at angelsim's and hvick's cursor movement and compare the cleanliness of both movements
Kyrari
*grabs popcorn*

oh is it done already? Well I'm late
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