sakuraburst - forest of the spirits

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Chaos
Shiirn asked me to lock this so here I am I guess.
Ephemeral
what the fuck is this shit?

i sit down and mod your map and turn moddingv2 on for it, and you give up because irreversible called you names or some shit and people have some issues with things that might be a bit controversial? take feedback into account, digest it, and try to make your map better.

get it done. i want to see this beatmap ranked and improved in the process. the song alone deserves as much.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
The changes or solutions proposed and demanded are unreasonable to us and beyond what we feel respect our map or the music itself.

In other words, proposed changes don't make us feel it will improve the map, only satisfy the demands of people we don't agree with to begin with. That, or make us go through silly bullshit just for them to make up more hoops to jump through.

If you have a problem with that, that's unfortunate.


'S more than just a temper tantrum. This has happened before with my sets when a certain person became involved, and I ended up hating the entire process and the song itself. I'd rather not hate forest as much as I hate cherry blossoms and routing, thanks.
zev
nice map
Mun

MrSergio wrote:

Mun dear,
- 01:31:270 (1) - the SV like that has almost no impact, if it was supposed to be like a simplification of the SV changes from the top diffs. What about this? Fair enough.
- 01:35:463 (1,2) - minor, but seeing they have both the same hitsound I would have stacked them. They feel kinda strange with movement between them =w=" Mostly because I see stuff like 01:38:044 (1,2) - which is identical but differently hitsounded so I am a bit "?.? why" Considering the contentious stacks that span the entirety of this section, adding something visually similar to those would visually represent it too similarly to an extremely different pattern, which could result in an unfair reading challenge for the player.
- 01:50:947 (1,2) - other hitsounding that makes little sense. Change hitsounds or pattern, because that way you're telling me the tail should have a click The drums haven't been the focal point of the rhythm anywhere in this map.
- 03:05:141 (3,4,5) - mentioned this to Shiirn before, but we ended up in a little conflict over it so I left it there. I would rather have your opinion too about (4), since it kinda dilutes the focus of your pattern. Yes, there technically is a really soft beat on 03:05:302 - but it's in background and I find it a bit messy to add it above the more important foreground sound here This is another example of the atmosphere prevailing over the individual sounds.
This is the climax of the 2nd quarter of the kiai, before a new layer is added to the song. This pattern is meant to put the maximum reasonable level of aim stress on the player, and does so quite nicely.

- 03:25:786 (3) - not the first one, but non-silenced tails which aren't used tilt me a bitmade like the KGB and silenced it
osu file format v14

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AudioLeadIn: 0
PreviewTime: 82238
Countdown: 0
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Title:forest of the spirits
TitleUnicode:forest of the spirits
Artist:sakuraburst
ArtistUnicode:sakuraburst
Creator:Shiirn
Version:mun's hard
Source:
Tags:blood orange mikasaserket net0 mir mun mecha dubstep dance Jakomo73 electronic ambient glitch noise pretty soundfont York
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Hey there! I can totally understand your frustration, and to a degree, emphasize with it. Unfortunately, though, the issue lies not with the controversy itself. Had people some general concerns with the map's quality, I would be more than happy to address them. However, it seems that this is not the case.

The concerns brought up when the map was disqualified for the storyboard were that the Hard used patterns that were unacceptably and unrankably difficult. After my response, they apparently conceded that, thanks to the numerous player testimonies, the multitude of testplays that I got in multis from the map's target audience, and the rift in perspective itself, there was no way to reasonably argue that it was "too hard."

And thus, they moved the goal posts. Now, suddenly, my map is unrankably low quality, and doesn't follow the song. If I were any more invested in this thread, I'd take that as a personal insult. It seems that, once the prior point became unarguable, they jumped ship to the issue that my overlaps aren't really representing anything, and that emphasis just doesn't exist in the map. To explain why this is incorrect and unwarranted: the map's purpose is to establish an atmosphere, not to show "this note is stronger than this note," etc. In this sense, it represents what I want it to when I want it to just fine.

I've had no choice but to conclude that if I resolve this next issue, another one will suddenly arise that, for whatever reason, nobody noticed before. I'd rather not jump through all those hoops, just to get the map into the ranked section, where I can go off and forget about the most contentious map I've ever made to date. The opponents of my map are such because of conflicting viewpoints - the entire spark of this debate was that it challenged something Hard diffs don't usually challenge. I can't really just accept proposed major changes to the map, because that flies in the face of everything it was made to represent.

With all due respect, if Irre judges it unacceptable in its current state, then neither Shiirn nor myself have any problem leaving the map to rot in the graveyard. It's proven itself to its target audience and to many mappers, and I am unwilling to accept any unreasonable change forced upon it if that means trading the map's purpose for an icon.
riptiondesc
I know my opinion is pretty irrelevant and I'm just happy to see this map move forward, but as a Hard level player who enjoyed this in qualified, I'm sad that it's readability/playability are the big concerns right now... it didn't feel uncomfortable to play and imo we need more reading challenges in lower difficulties. Sure I was playing it with HR but I could read it nomod just fine... I just hope this rejection of reading challenges in lower diffs isn't a trend moving forward else playing light insane and below will be pretty boring. My mechanics aren't good enough for higher spacing insanes but I really enjoy these maps lol
Okoratu
you write too much i can't digest your rambles if i dont care to read this much text mun

01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - repeat arrow is hidden for a bit long isnt it
02:28:528 (2,4,5) - i think going along with your custom stack concept i think these should be stacked like 02:38:528 (5,1,2,3) -
02:54:979 (4,1) - this would have more of an impact if it was stacked because it would force people to actually listen to the song while playing instead of distancesnapping it
03:04:818 (2,3) - huge 03:05:141 (3,4) - huge 03:05:302 (4,5) - huge, i think the sound in the middle (namely 3-4) should be small because impacts are on 3 and 5 but it doesnt matter too much
03:13:205 (5,1) - i keep dropping the sliderend of this because itseems to use sliderleniency a bit much
kiai is a bit all over the place as far as highlighting sounds goes, 02:49:012 (1) - 03:02:883 (5,1) - get focus in the first more calm half of the chorus similarly to the 2nd half in the first one
while in the 2nd half 03:09:334 (5,1) - doesnt get focus like all the others do througha jump to it
02:38:689 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3) - i find it weird to insist on mapping the backing instrument so much if you just focus drums in the latter part of the pattern anyways

unrelated
02:01:270 (1,2,3) - volume to like 20% or 15 at least sounds better to me and actually sounds audible
Mun

Okorin wrote:

you write too much i can't digest your rambles if i dont care to read this much text mun

01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - repeat arrow is hidden for a bit long isnt it shiirn never added the change i applied here wtf
02:28:528 (2,4,5) - i think going along with your custom stack concept i think these should be stacked like 02:38:528 (5,1,2,3) - sort of fixed?
i just changed the whole rhythm instead of stacking on top of a repeat lol

02:54:979 (4,1) - this would have more of an impact if it was stacked because it would force people to actually listen to the song while playing instead of distancesnapping it I'd definitely accept this change if I didn't want the player to have to move between those 2 objects.
03:04:818 (2,3) - huge 03:05:141 (3,4) - huge 03:05:302 (4,5) - huge, i think the sound in the middle (namely 3-4) should be small because impacts are on 3 and 5 but it doesnt matter too much other people have brought this up, might as well change
03:13:205 (5,1) - i keep dropping the sliderend of this because itseems to use sliderleniency a bit much fixed
kiai is a bit all over the place as far as highlighting sounds goes, 02:49:012 (1) - 03:02:883 (5,1) - get focus in the first more calm half of the chorus similarly to the 2nd half in the first one elaborate, idk what you are trying to say
while in the 2nd half 03:09:334 (5,1) - doesnt get focus like all the others do througha jump to it oh, I see. Fixed.
02:38:689 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3) - i find it weird to insist on mapping the backing instrument so much if you just focus drums in the latter part of the pattern anyways edited a bit

unrelated
02:01:270 (1,2,3) - volume to like 20% or 15 at least sounds better to me and actually sounds audible disagree, i prefer the 40-5 to silence sliderends
osu file format v14

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Okoratu
elaboration:

02:45:141 - to 03:05:463 - you dont use slider leniency usually when doing things except for like two random places where you do and 2nd half has mostly everything except for like one thing use sliderleniency making both of these look out of place

also idk providing testplays by random people from the target audience that show that they can handle the gimmick fine should suffice as far as the "this is inappropriate for a hard diff" go

like this is a thing you can test and either party can do it to support or disprove their claims
Topic Starter
Shiirn
kudos to you actually modding the map and improving what it has but yeah see the problem is

we did that whole playtesting thing

and some randoms have even said as such here and in disqus thread (not that you can see that) but that wasn't really the problem, it was that we weren't giving up when told that the concept wasn't acceptable to them (if you noticed, at the slightest explanation of the conceptual choice, it instantly swapped to "but it doesnt even fit the music" without elaboration which is in the top 5 most hilariously bullshit subjective throwaway arguments possible)

it's kind of bullshit that we'd need to go out and actively record our conversations with people or have them post on the thread just to "prove our point" because i don't see irreversible or sergio or literally fucking anyone needing to prove that concept X or Y is viable by going out and getting playtests and posting records of it

so i don't understand how it can be demanded of me or mun here, because it's literally something we've already gone out and done to our own satisfaction, and if we need to go and do it again to, say, irreversible's satisfaction, then politely, fuck that
Mun

Okorin wrote:

elaboration:

02:45:141 - to 03:05:463 - you dont use slider leniency usually when doing things except for like two random places where you do and 2nd half has mostly everything except for like one thing use sliderleniency making both of these look out of place I removed all cases of slider leniency that I noticed in the first quarter of the kiai, other than that the only reason it changes is because the entirety of the kiai evolves over time

like this is a thing you can test and either party can do it to support or disprove their claims
- ~350k in a multi, only feedback was a fully expected consequence of the concept
- ~327k in a multi, same feedback
~150k in a multi, no problems
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424,198,194496,2,0,B|368:188|368:188|279:201,1,116.999996429443,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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355,108,195141,2,0,L|352:30,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
246,141,195463,1,8,1:0:0:0:
424,198,195625,1,0,1:0:0:0:
424,198,196109,70,0,B|433:258|433:258|425:322,1,116.999996429443,4|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
421,331,196431,1,0,0:0:0:0:
330,308,196592,1,2,0:0:0:0:
251,359,196754,2,0,B|212:354|212:354|162:359,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
28,293,197076,2,0,B|67:297|67:297|106:292,1,77.999997619629
196,266,197399,6,0,B|187:207|187:207|201:136,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
211,136,197721,1,0,0:0:0:0:
133,82,197883,1,2,0:0:0:0:
305,108,198044,2,0,B|345:113|345:113|382:108,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|1:0,0:0:0:0:
285,19,198367,2,0,B|245:14|245:14|205:19,1,77.999997619629,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
283,125,198689,6,0,B|344:132|344:132|406:123,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
414,115,199012,1,0,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199173,1,2,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199254,1,0,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199334,2,0,B|476:228|476:228|470:288,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
384,384,199657,2,0,B|381:346|381:346|387:307,1,77.999997619629
499,300,199979,70,0,B|512:223|512:223|483:139,1,155.999995239258,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
409,202,200463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
409,202,200544,1,0,1:0:0:0:
409,202,200625,2,0,B|351:207|351:207|285:197,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
274,201,200947,2,0,B|268:240|268:240|275:311,1,77.999997619629,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
353,130,201270,6,0,B|358:72|358:72|348:6,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,0,201592,1,0,0:0:0:0:
262,46,201754,1,2,0:0:0:0:
172,20,201915,2,0,B|132:26|132:26|90:20,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
194,110,202238,2,0,B|204:169|204:169|189:231,1,116.999996429443,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
182,243,202560,6,0,B|177:283|177:283|181:337,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
313,330,202883,2,0,B|318:290|318:290|314:236,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
254,126,203205,1,8,1:2:0:0:
344,150,203367,1,0,1:0:0:0:
250,147,203528,2,0,B|211:147|211:147|152:134,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
85,106,203850,70,0,B|88:170|88:170|68:237,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
65,238,204173,2,0,B|111:232|111:232|166:243,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
235,292,204496,2,0,B|291:306|291:306|371:298,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
373,293,204818,2,0,B|369:339|369:339|380:384,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
455,222,205141,5,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205786,2,0,P|442:170|291:258,1,318.499990280152,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:
riptiondesc
Noob testplay (post update)


98.9% HR fc at 100k after about 15 tries replay
I fc'd with like 97% HR during qualified after about 3 tries, think I was 130k then

It's definitely one of the more challenging Hard diffs I've played but still easier to read than most high BPM Hards with moderate reading requirements... like pk's Caramel Heaven (somewhat close to HR fcing) and handsome's Ai o Chikaishi Hime Kazari (fc'd with HR with a lot of effort). I play a lot of high BPM HR so I guess that says something? idk... even most Lasse maps feel harder to read than this
Kurai
I guess I'll just throw a short mod I had saved in my drafts, hope this helps.

[net0's easy]
  1. 02:43:850 (1,1) - Not really a good idea to stack notes in Easy difficulties (and particularly when they are more than 1/1 apart). Player at this level rely a lot on spacing, seeing those two sliders being stacked could make them "panic" and click the 2nd slider earlier than they should. Actually, I am not really against introducing stacks in Easy difficulties they are common patterns and beginners have to learn how to play them at some point, but here it would only feel awkward for them and would just makes it confusing in my opinion.
  2. 02:49:496 (5) - Maybe you should map this rhythm the same way you did at 02:59:334 (4,5) - . That's an easier rhythm to follow. (it goes for 03:10:141 (4) - as well).
  3. 02:57:399 (5) - Why did you make it 1/2 here but not at 02:47:076 (5) - ? (the same goes for 03:02:560 (5) - and 03:15:463 (5) - then).
  4. 03:25:786 (7) - a 1/1 slider would work better here in my opinion as you don't really have any audible sound at 03:25:947 - .


[mun's hard]
  1. 01:40:625 (1) - I really feel like this circle should be a slider (potentially going in the same direction as 01:39:979 (3) - and 01:39:334 (1) - ) because as it is now, it feels like you are ignoring the sound (3) and (4) were nicely accentuating which kind of feels anticlimactic.
  2. 01:46:754 (5) - I think you should change this slider as the movement it creates is pretty awkward and doesn't go well with the previous objects; (2) goes upward then (3,4) go on the left then right after (4) you have to go back on the right but (5) goes upward again (and a bit on the left). I find it rather uncomfortable to play.
  3. 01:55:141 (2) - I would ctrl+g this slider (and adjust its position), in my opinion it would make the movement of this slider feel more natural.
  4. 03:19:173 (3,4,5) - Since you have a circle 1/4 after a slider just right before, it makes it a bit complicated to apprehend this triple (even though it is perfectly justified rhythmically). Two solutions to fix this issue 1. you could remove the 1/4 and 2. make 03:18:689 (1) - a full 1/1 slider just like 03:08:367 (1) - (I like this solution the best as it would make the patterns more consistent with one another).


[mir's insane]
  1. 01:40:625 (1) - As I said in Hard: "I really feel like this circle should be a slider [...] because as it is now, it feels like you are ignoring the sound 01:38:689 (4,1,4) - were nicely accentuating which kind of feels anticlimactic.". Though, since it is stacked here, it doesn't feel as awkward as in Hard.
  2. 01:42:560 (3) - I would end it on the red tick. I believe the sound on 01:42:721 - deserves to be mapped, and actually, it would put more emphasis on the following stream.
  3. 01:51:915 - Why didn't you map this beat? :0 It feels like something is missing (and therefore makes 01:52:076 (6) - more complicated to apprehend).
  4. 02:59:979 (5) - Why do you have a slowdown for 02:49:657 (1) - , 03:10:302 (1) - and 03:20:625 (1) - ) but not here?
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Kurai wrote:

I guess I'll just throw a short mod I had saved in my drafts, hope this helps.

[net0's easy]
  1. 02:43:850 (1,1) - Not really a good idea to stack notes in Easy difficulties (and particularly when they are more than 1/1 apart). Player at this level rely a lot on spacing, seeing those two sliders being stacked could make them "panic" and click the 2nd slider earlier than they should. Actually, I am not really against introducing stacks in Easy difficulties they are common patterns and beginners have to learn how to play them at some point, but here it would only feel awkward for them and would just makes it confusing in my opinion. Quit treating new players like they're brain-damaged monkeys.
  2. 02:49:496 (5) - Maybe you should map this rhythm the same way you did at 02:59:334 (4,5) - . That's an easier rhythm to follow. (it goes for 03:10:141 (4) - as well). Quit treating new players like they're brain-damaged monkeys.
  3. 02:57:399 (5) - Why did you make it 1/2 here but not at 02:47:076 (5) - ? (the same goes for 03:02:560 (5) - and 03:15:463 (5) - then). Fixed inconsistencies. They're all circles now. Be happy. also, 03:15:463 (5) - is not even the same relevance sound, 03:18:044 (5) - is
  4. 03:25:786 (7) - a 1/1 slider would work better here in my opinion as you don't really have any audible sound at 03:25:947 - . Doesn't matter, the reversal of movement is a good representation of the music.


[mun's hard]
  1. 01:40:625 (1) - I really feel like this circle should be a slider (potentially going in the same direction as 01:39:979 (3) - and 01:39:334 (1) - ) because as it is now, it feels like you are ignoring the sound (3) and (4) were nicely accentuating which kind of feels anticlimactic. It's my style
  2. 01:46:754 (5) - I think you should change this slider as the movement it creates is pretty awkward and doesn't go well with the previous objects; (2) goes upward then (3,4) go on the left then right after (4) you have to go back on the right but (5) goes upward again (and a bit on the left). I find it rather uncomfortable to play. It's my style
  3. 01:55:141 (2) - I would ctrl+g this slider (and adjust its position), in my opinion it would make the movement of this slider feel more natural. It's my style
  4. 03:19:173 (3,4,5) - Since you have a circle 1/4 after a slider just right before, it makes it a bit complicated to apprehend this triple (even though it is perfectly justified rhythmically). Two solutions to fix this issue 1. you could remove the 1/4 and 2. make 03:18:689 (1) - a full 1/1 slider just like 03:08:367 (1) - (I like this solution the best as it would make the patterns more consistent with one another). Change 02:58:044 (1) - to be consistent with the second iteration. Thanks!


[mir's insane]
  1. 01:40:625 (1) - As I said in Hard: "I really feel like this circle should be a slider [...] because as it is now, it feels like you are ignoring the sound 01:38:689 (4,1,4) - were nicely accentuating which kind of feels anticlimactic.". Though, since it is stacked here, it doesn't feel as awkward as in Hard. It's my style
  2. 01:42:560 (3) - I would end it on the red tick. I believe the sound on 01:42:721 - deserves to be mapped, and actually, it would put more emphasis on the following stream. It's my style
  3. 01:51:915 - Why didn't you map this beat? :0 It feels like something is missing (and therefore makes 01:52:076 (6) - more complicated to apprehend). It's my style
  4. 02:59:979 (5) - Why do you have a slowdown for 02:49:657 (1) - , 03:10:302 (1) - and 03:20:625 (1) - ) but not here? the curve is a slowdown in itself as the player doesn't move the cursor, and this pattern variant works this way. (i don't really know, but it works fine either way to me)
Topic Starter
Shiirn
doublepost for update:

mun's hard removed as we both decided that it was just too much of an issue to just completely revamp the entire intro to be more consistent and less questionable, as it was needlessly frustrating to both me and mun and we've long since stopped having any sort of motivation or drive to "fix" problems we don't agree exist


as such, if anyone wants to map a replacement they can feel free to contact me, otherwise, this set is dead again (as, again, i don't care enough about ranking this set myself to actually do it myself)
Net0
So in the end they still can't accept Mun as the diff between normal and insane. So is it only missing like an advance diff between normal and hard and we're good to go?
_handholding
hard

Because you've done a lot to try emphasise all the niche sounds in the intro with different slider shapes, structure etc. I'm kind of puzzled as to why you didn't try to do anything with these sounds 01:32:560 and 01:32:721

02:24:496 (1) - Maybe it's just me but this section doesn't feel intuitive at all. It felt that way in editor and played awkward to me in testplay

02:59:657 (1,2,3) - if you're gonna stack 2 and 3 then imho it would go down better to not stack 1 and 2 . This would go for a lot of other patterns too

03:25:786 (3) - spacing this big feels like it should be omitted in hard diffs

w ~
LMT

Kisses wrote:

hard

Because you've done a lot to try emphasise all the niche sounds in the intro with different slider shapes, structure etc. I'm kind of puzzled as to why you didn't try to do anything with these sounds 01:32:560 and 01:32:721 it is due to rhythm constraints, 1/2 sliders can't demonstrate how the current one emphasises the clap sound and the only option I have left for a hard diff for 01:32:721 is a circle

02:24:496 (1) - Maybe it's just me but this section doesn't feel intuitive at all. It felt that way in editor and played awkward to me in testplay I think you need to elaborate on this otherwise I couldn't pinpoint the issue. I can play it just fine even on DT but it might be that I've already subconsciously memorised the rhythm

02:59:657 (1,2,3) - if you're gonna stack 2 and 3 then imho it would go down better to not stack 1 and 2 . This would go for a lot of other patterns too varying 1/4 spacing concept even for sliderend -> circle isn't fitting in this map where I've already prioritised having different spacing concepts for 1/2

03:25:786 (3) - spacing this big feels like it should be omitted in hard diffs it's honestly not that bad considering how big circle -> slider jumps in this map. I'll take it into consideration if the issue gets brought up again.
w ~
Thanks for the mod! No changes have been made though.
Side
Cuz shiirn wants to rebubble and asked to mod the hard

but I don't want to so here's one suggestion based on pressing space bar and waiting 4 minutes for the filler intro before the song actually starts

[Hard]

01:25:141 (1,2) - 01:26:109 - Don't leave this empty. You can argue that you're mapping to the drums and don't want to map filler except in this case it's not that. 01:25:786 (2) - This clearly is mapped and hitsounded to the drum and synthy piano thing whatever that is so not having another 1/2 slider right after really feels empty. Do this(move 01:26:915 (2) - to the right to keep the triangle) or go the copout way and change 01:25:786 (2) - to a note.

If I ever get more time I'll mod the rest gl
sdafsf
[ LMT]

  • Not an actual mod but i think you should fix these terrible autostacks:
  1. 02:49:334 (1,2,3) -
  2. 02:59:657 (1,2,3) -
  3. 03:09:979 (1,2,3) -
  4. 03:20:302 (1,2,3) -
    idk if you map with stacking disabled but it looks pretty bad and misleading rn. i would stack them manually
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