sakuraburst - forest of the spirits

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Seijiro
I feel strange about the situation...
Above all when I see people on both sides saying "if Mun wants I'm here for further improvement" while no one actually takes action and improves it as they say. From my pov this is just... meh... That's not the spirit of modding (if you really care about the map)
I know it might be a pain, but complaining only is too easy :<

That aside tho, Mun's reasoning about Hard diffs is kinda awkward too lol. Assuming everyone hates Hard diffs for whatever reason seems a bit too generalized...
I personally love making them and while I do agree the restriction brought from old mapping make them boring I find that comment a bit too far from reality.
These diffs are also the most played diffs, based on some statistics Eph showed some time ago, so idk about the general hate against this diff tbh (sorry, forgot what thread that was in, no link to it)

Regardless of both sides tho, I find strange how we find ourselves fighting with each other on things that maybe we don't even play or have the right perception on.
The map has been in qualified for a (maybe short) while, so if people had complaints about the Hard they could have spoken. I refer to those who play Hard diffs, not experienced players testplaying it and assuming things based on their knowledge, nor modders.
It is a matter of facts that no one has the mentality of those old days to really say "this is inappropriate" or not for such a diff.
I had a similar problem on one of my mapsets and I asked around testplays to make sure things work well enough for the target audience. If you have doubts pick users of a certain range and make them testplay the map instead of saying "they won't be able to read this" or whatever. I find that more fair towards everyone, mappers and players.


Aaaaaanyway, while I can agree the set can be cleaner from an aesthetic point of view I find the concept consistent in the Hard, hence why I firstly qualified this. I will just bring up a couple things I didn't point out last time since idk.. they slipped from my mind

Mun dear,
- 01:31:270 (1) - the SV like that has almost no impact, if it was supposed to be like a simplification of the SV changes from the top diffs. What about this?
- 01:35:463 (1,2) - minor, but seeing they have both the same hitsound I would have stacked them. They feel kinda strange with movement between them =w=" Mostly because I see stuff like 01:38:044 (1,2) - which is identical but differently hitsounded so I am a bit "?.? why"
- 01:50:947 (1,2) - other hitsounding that makes little sense. Change hitsounds or pattern, because that way you're telling me the tail should have a click
- 03:05:141 (3,4,5) - mentioned this to Shiirn before, but we ended up in a little conflict over it so I left it there. I would rather have your opinion too about (4), since it kinda dilutes the focus of your pattern. Yes, there technically is a really soft beat on 03:05:302 - but it's in background and I find it a bit messy to add it above the more important foreground sound here
- 03:25:786 (3) - not the first one, but non-silenced tails which aren't used tilt me a bit
Cheri
Notice this beatmap for a while - As a person who can only play hard atm (my rank shows it all)- I find this a bit different but overall fun and nothing too hard at all
- Idk what the big deal with some aspect being too hard for people like me since I had no problem with this map and can easily fc it if I wanted to and looking forward to it being the next rank map for me to play :)
Irreversible

MrSergio wrote:

I feel strange about the situation...
Above all when I see people on both sides saying "if Mun wants I'm here for further improvement" while no one actually takes action and improves it as they say. From my pov this is just... meh... That's not the spirit of modding (if you really care about the map)
I know it might be a pain, but complaining only is too easy :<
Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
Topic Starter
Shiirn

MrSergio wrote:

I had a similar problem on one of my mapsets and I asked around testplays to make sure things work well enough for the target audience. If you have doubts pick users of a certain range and make them testplay the map instead of saying "they won't be able to read this" or whatever. I find that more fair towards everyone, mappers and players.
I guess you want Mun to go and screenshot multi lobbies asking them to play his difficulty because apparently having actual Hard difficulty players come in and compliment the map as something they enjoyed isn't evidence for you? But people outside of the difficulty level can claim it isn't suitable? What kind of messed-up, backwards system of thinking is that?

MrSergio wrote:

the set can be cleaner from an aesthetic point of view
Missing the point. Just because there isn't geometric pretty angled structured patterns doesn't mean that there isn't an inherent purpose or intent to the map.

Irreversible wrote:

Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do.

Nobody else talked about shit in regards to the map's un-readiness-to-be-ranked.


So politely, fuck this.

If actively going out and trying to make sure things are at least "whatever, fine" (Because none of you really care about the map, you just don't want a precedent to be set) is being "just ignore the whole circumstances", then screw ranking this. Go ahead and lock it.
Irreversible

Shiirn wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do. My apologies then for blaming you then, but things are not fine in its current state yet. One thing that might be able to help you is to actually start unblocking me so you can actually talk to me as well when there is something like this ongoing. I have talked to Voli and I honestly couldn't conclude from the conversation that he stated something like it's being fine and ready to receive a rebub as well yet, so where are you getting your information from anyways?

So politely, fuck this.

If actively going out and trying to make sure things are at least "whatever, fine" (Because none of you really care about the map, you just don't want a precedent to be set) is being "just ignore the whole circumstances", then screw ranking this. Go ahead and lock it. If I wouldn't care about the map, I wouldn't have talked to Mun and tried to help optimizing it, now you're the one laying words into my mouth and actions zz
Let's try to focus on the map though, because talking about attitude ultimatively won't help this mapset,..
from my point of view I'd be delighted if Mun could speak up about an optimization of his diff if he wants to keep his concept up, or otherwise you might as well just add another diff to get rid off the spread issues
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Why the hell would I unblock you when every moment we've ever talked off-forum has been you vaguely or not-so-vaguely mocking me nonstop? Blame your own behavior towards me for forcing me to speak to you either on the forums or via a third party.
Irreversible

Shiirn wrote:

Why the hell would I unblock you when every moment we've ever talked off-forum has been you vaguely or not-so-vaguely mocking me nonstop? Blame your own behavior towards me for forcing me to speak to you either on the forums or via a third party.
No need to play the innocent lamb now. I don't have a disadvantage from talking to you through third party, so you can blame yourself for the actions that were needed to be taken - it was solely an offer so you might be able to get your map back to ranked with more ease, but if you decide against that and risk more emotional outbursts then we can stick to that.
Nao Tomori
Anyway should we just get a bunch of results from 200ks? I'm sure you understand that since all of this discussion was evidently done in private i couldn't see if stuff was happening. I just asked shiirn if issues were resolved with you and kurai (probably not the best idea, admittedly) and he said yes. If they're not, please explain a bit more on what you'd like to see changed / fixed and preferably not just"remove all overlaps." If it's a consistency issue, I'm sure i can work on it with mun. However, i need to know the issue first and as of know it seems to be that overlaps were used at all which i don't think should be a reason to stop the map from being ranked.
Seijiro
I implied that having a bunch of testplays on the current version might make the all fighting over this stuff end once and for all.
Also, I wasn't attacking you about aesthetics, I was just stating that it is not as clean as it could be, not that I won't requal, geez... why do you take it like that...

Anyway, things seem to have moved in some direction or another so for the time being I don't really have to do much here apparently.
I honestly am not a fan of all the "nice words" you use, Shiirn, so maybe let's at least avoid that. It is surely not a good example for anyone
Topic Starter
Shiirn
removed
Chaos
Shiirn asked me to lock this so here I am I guess.
Ephemeral
what the fuck is this shit?

i sit down and mod your map and turn moddingv2 on for it, and you give up because irreversible called you names or some shit and people have some issues with things that might be a bit controversial? take feedback into account, digest it, and try to make your map better.

get it done. i want to see this beatmap ranked and improved in the process. the song alone deserves as much.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
The changes or solutions proposed and demanded are unreasonable to us and beyond what we feel respect our map or the music itself.

In other words, proposed changes don't make us feel it will improve the map, only satisfy the demands of people we don't agree with to begin with. That, or make us go through silly bullshit just for them to make up more hoops to jump through.

If you have a problem with that, that's unfortunate.


'S more than just a temper tantrum. This has happened before with my sets when a certain person became involved, and I ended up hating the entire process and the song itself. I'd rather not hate forest as much as I hate cherry blossoms and routing, thanks.
zev
nice map
Mun

MrSergio wrote:

Mun dear,
- 01:31:270 (1) - the SV like that has almost no impact, if it was supposed to be like a simplification of the SV changes from the top diffs. What about this? Fair enough.
- 01:35:463 (1,2) - minor, but seeing they have both the same hitsound I would have stacked them. They feel kinda strange with movement between them =w=" Mostly because I see stuff like 01:38:044 (1,2) - which is identical but differently hitsounded so I am a bit "?.? why" Considering the contentious stacks that span the entirety of this section, adding something visually similar to those would visually represent it too similarly to an extremely different pattern, which could result in an unfair reading challenge for the player.
- 01:50:947 (1,2) - other hitsounding that makes little sense. Change hitsounds or pattern, because that way you're telling me the tail should have a click The drums haven't been the focal point of the rhythm anywhere in this map.
- 03:05:141 (3,4,5) - mentioned this to Shiirn before, but we ended up in a little conflict over it so I left it there. I would rather have your opinion too about (4), since it kinda dilutes the focus of your pattern. Yes, there technically is a really soft beat on 03:05:302 - but it's in background and I find it a bit messy to add it above the more important foreground sound here This is another example of the atmosphere prevailing over the individual sounds.
This is the climax of the 2nd quarter of the kiai, before a new layer is added to the song. This pattern is meant to put the maximum reasonable level of aim stress on the player, and does so quite nicely.

- 03:25:786 (3) - not the first one, but non-silenced tails which aren't used tilt me a bitmade like the KGB and silenced it
osu file format v14

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Hey there! I can totally understand your frustration, and to a degree, emphasize with it. Unfortunately, though, the issue lies not with the controversy itself. Had people some general concerns with the map's quality, I would be more than happy to address them. However, it seems that this is not the case.

The concerns brought up when the map was disqualified for the storyboard were that the Hard used patterns that were unacceptably and unrankably difficult. After my response, they apparently conceded that, thanks to the numerous player testimonies, the multitude of testplays that I got in multis from the map's target audience, and the rift in perspective itself, there was no way to reasonably argue that it was "too hard."

And thus, they moved the goal posts. Now, suddenly, my map is unrankably low quality, and doesn't follow the song. If I were any more invested in this thread, I'd take that as a personal insult. It seems that, once the prior point became unarguable, they jumped ship to the issue that my overlaps aren't really representing anything, and that emphasis just doesn't exist in the map. To explain why this is incorrect and unwarranted: the map's purpose is to establish an atmosphere, not to show "this note is stronger than this note," etc. In this sense, it represents what I want it to when I want it to just fine.

I've had no choice but to conclude that if I resolve this next issue, another one will suddenly arise that, for whatever reason, nobody noticed before. I'd rather not jump through all those hoops, just to get the map into the ranked section, where I can go off and forget about the most contentious map I've ever made to date. The opponents of my map are such because of conflicting viewpoints - the entire spark of this debate was that it challenged something Hard diffs don't usually challenge. I can't really just accept proposed major changes to the map, because that flies in the face of everything it was made to represent.

With all due respect, if Irre judges it unacceptable in its current state, then neither Shiirn nor myself have any problem leaving the map to rot in the graveyard. It's proven itself to its target audience and to many mappers, and I am unwilling to accept any unreasonable change forced upon it if that means trading the map's purpose for an icon.
riptiondesc
I know my opinion is pretty irrelevant and I'm just happy to see this map move forward, but as a Hard level player who enjoyed this in qualified, I'm sad that it's readability/playability are the big concerns right now... it didn't feel uncomfortable to play and imo we need more reading challenges in lower difficulties. Sure I was playing it with HR but I could read it nomod just fine... I just hope this rejection of reading challenges in lower diffs isn't a trend moving forward else playing light insane and below will be pretty boring. My mechanics aren't good enough for higher spacing insanes but I really enjoy these maps lol
Okoratu
you write too much i can't digest your rambles if i dont care to read this much text mun

01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - repeat arrow is hidden for a bit long isnt it
02:28:528 (2,4,5) - i think going along with your custom stack concept i think these should be stacked like 02:38:528 (5,1,2,3) -
02:54:979 (4,1) - this would have more of an impact if it was stacked because it would force people to actually listen to the song while playing instead of distancesnapping it
03:04:818 (2,3) - huge 03:05:141 (3,4) - huge 03:05:302 (4,5) - huge, i think the sound in the middle (namely 3-4) should be small because impacts are on 3 and 5 but it doesnt matter too much
03:13:205 (5,1) - i keep dropping the sliderend of this because itseems to use sliderleniency a bit much
kiai is a bit all over the place as far as highlighting sounds goes, 02:49:012 (1) - 03:02:883 (5,1) - get focus in the first more calm half of the chorus similarly to the 2nd half in the first one
while in the 2nd half 03:09:334 (5,1) - doesnt get focus like all the others do througha jump to it
02:38:689 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3) - i find it weird to insist on mapping the backing instrument so much if you just focus drums in the latter part of the pattern anyways

unrelated
02:01:270 (1,2,3) - volume to like 20% or 15 at least sounds better to me and actually sounds audible
Mun

Okorin wrote:

you write too much i can't digest your rambles if i dont care to read this much text mun

01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - repeat arrow is hidden for a bit long isnt it shiirn never added the change i applied here wtf
02:28:528 (2,4,5) - i think going along with your custom stack concept i think these should be stacked like 02:38:528 (5,1,2,3) - sort of fixed?
i just changed the whole rhythm instead of stacking on top of a repeat lol

02:54:979 (4,1) - this would have more of an impact if it was stacked because it would force people to actually listen to the song while playing instead of distancesnapping it I'd definitely accept this change if I didn't want the player to have to move between those 2 objects.
03:04:818 (2,3) - huge 03:05:141 (3,4) - huge 03:05:302 (4,5) - huge, i think the sound in the middle (namely 3-4) should be small because impacts are on 3 and 5 but it doesnt matter too much other people have brought this up, might as well change
03:13:205 (5,1) - i keep dropping the sliderend of this because itseems to use sliderleniency a bit much fixed
kiai is a bit all over the place as far as highlighting sounds goes, 02:49:012 (1) - 03:02:883 (5,1) - get focus in the first more calm half of the chorus similarly to the 2nd half in the first one elaborate, idk what you are trying to say
while in the 2nd half 03:09:334 (5,1) - doesnt get focus like all the others do througha jump to it oh, I see. Fixed.
02:38:689 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3) - i find it weird to insist on mapping the backing instrument so much if you just focus drums in the latter part of the pattern anyways edited a bit

unrelated
02:01:270 (1,2,3) - volume to like 20% or 15 at least sounds better to me and actually sounds audible disagree, i prefer the 40-5 to silence sliderends
osu file format v14

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Tags:blood orange mikasaserket net0 mir mun mecha dubstep dance Jakomo73 electronic ambient glitch noise pretty soundfont York
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294,299,172399,1,0,1:2:0:0:
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280,76,173850,2,0,P|224:68|158:81,1,116.999996429443,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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236,180,174818,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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414,291,175463,6,0,B|418:233|418:233|413:165,1,116.999996429443,4|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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324,110,176109,2,0,P|327:61|322:27,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:
Okoratu
elaboration:

02:45:141 - to 03:05:463 - you dont use slider leniency usually when doing things except for like two random places where you do and 2nd half has mostly everything except for like one thing use sliderleniency making both of these look out of place

also idk providing testplays by random people from the target audience that show that they can handle the gimmick fine should suffice as far as the "this is inappropriate for a hard diff" go

like this is a thing you can test and either party can do it to support or disprove their claims
Topic Starter
Shiirn
kudos to you actually modding the map and improving what it has but yeah see the problem is

we did that whole playtesting thing

and some randoms have even said as such here and in disqus thread (not that you can see that) but that wasn't really the problem, it was that we weren't giving up when told that the concept wasn't acceptable to them (if you noticed, at the slightest explanation of the conceptual choice, it instantly swapped to "but it doesnt even fit the music" without elaboration which is in the top 5 most hilariously bullshit subjective throwaway arguments possible)

it's kind of bullshit that we'd need to go out and actively record our conversations with people or have them post on the thread just to "prove our point" because i don't see irreversible or sergio or literally fucking anyone needing to prove that concept X or Y is viable by going out and getting playtests and posting records of it

so i don't understand how it can be demanded of me or mun here, because it's literally something we've already gone out and done to our own satisfaction, and if we need to go and do it again to, say, irreversible's satisfaction, then politely, fuck that
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