sakuraburst - forest of the spirits · forum

Nao Tomori

Nomination Assessment Team

3,089 posts

Joined December 2014

Nao Tomori 2017-08-11T23:49:23+00:00

lmk if u decide to go again

Net0

1,238 posts

Joined October 2014

Net0 2017-08-12T00:00:30+00:00

Kurai wrote:
[Easy]
01:42:883 (9,1) - Pretty weird spacing.Well not something major but since it was DQ I might as well improve it! Thanks Kurai, more consistent 1,0x now.

Kisses wrote:
Net0 joining in on the circlejerk :Ok_hand:

?????????????????????????????????????????
Do you have a problem with me? First you started cancer flame on my map thread, then you decided to shit on disqus, now here? Bro you're not, by any means, obligated to like my maps or agree with anything I say, but can you stop saying saying unecessary things wherever I go? This thread is for Shiirn's mapset improvement, not personal attack. Keep it clean pls.

DS improve

osu file format v14

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Last edited by Net0 2017-08-12T03:46:10+00:00, edited 2 times in total.

Arrival

1,418 posts

Joined June 2012

Arrival 2017-08-12T00:09:01+00:00

pls guys

Mun

468 posts

Joined July 2015

Mun 2017-08-12T02:25:26+00:00

Kurai wrote:
So no one is going to mention that the SB load goes beyond 11,00x during the kiai when the SB is actually pretty basic?

nostar.png is above 5MB and bgbaw.png 1,75MB. Why are those even .png files since there is no transparency? You could significantly reduce their filesize by converting them to .jpg

The gap between Normal and Hard is a bit too huge in my opinion. It's obvious just by looking at the object density of both difficulties: http://up.kuraip.net/0811z4E386h2516.png

[Hard]
01:33:528 (3,4,1,2,3) - Highly inappropriate for a Hard difficulty. Patterns should be easily sightreadable and overlaps like these are to be avoided.
01:35:625 (2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - ^
01:38:205 (2,3,4,1) - ^
01:45:947 (2,5) - ^
01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - ^
02:30:947 (1,2,3) - ^
02:34:979 (2,1,3) - ^
02:38:689 (1,3) - ^
02:39:979 (1,2,1,2) - ^
02:41:270 (1,2,1,2) - ^
etc
lol

I've got no time for a full mod atm, but if it ever gets DQ'd, I'll do a proper one. I believe it should at least for the SB load and those huge files.

Irreversible wrote:
Yo

hard
I've checked the concerns about this difficulty and I do agree that this is not suitable like in it's current state. The amount of stacks and overlaps is not appropriate for this difficulty and should thus be toned down.

01:41:270 - Also make sure to check this rhythm, as it seems off to what the song actually offers http://puu.sh/x7KIq/e347a35877.jpg Fixed!

Let's talk a little bit about lower difficulties and spread, and the damage that the current "standards" for such lower difficulties have dealt to the playerbase. For the purposes of this current controversy, I will be singling out Hard diffs.

Mappers hate this difficulty level. On every level, from new to ancient, you can see that mappers simply refuse to map low diffs for the player - Hard is no exception. The needs of the playerbase are met on almost no level at all. The requirements for Hard difficulties seem to completely contradict the purpose of making them in the first place. Due to the hatred for creativity and variety in Hard difficulties, those on the skill level that play them are left entirely bereft of engaging and interesting maps.

The problem you seem to have is that the map is too hard to read. For whatever reason, Hard diff players must have the observational and pattern-recognition skills of a baked potato, and we must cater to their tragic incompetence! It is a terribly unfortunate condition, that players must be subjected to these painstakingly generic, slightly more challenging Normal difficulties that are, for whatever reason, labeled as “Hard.” It seems almost patronizing.

The overlaps on my map are perfectly readable. They are fairly systematic, all completely visible, and follow the song. Hard difficulty players are not idiots, they are somewhat newer to the game than most of us mappers. In making these slightly denser Normal difficulties and calling them Hard diffs, we are providing them training in their aim and their speed - and absolutely nothing else. This map has been denounced for its diversity, for the fact that it challenges new things and makes players learn new skills.

Isn’t that what this difficulty level is for, though? A Hard difficulty should be in a fairly “linear” spread, but when every spread is basically ENNI, where does the player get the skills to read and play that Insane? Just aim and speed aren’t nearly enough, but when that’s all that Hard diffs can safely be said to challenge, aren’t these spreads fairly counter-intuitive? Hard difficulties should be Insane minus the stress, not denser Normals.

All that someone who faithfully plays modern maps on difficulties made for their level can go on to do is play more difficult versions of that same map - perpetuated in the massive amounts of attention accumulated by simple, basic, easily readable TV-size jump maps. In making these standards what they are, you are forcing players to basically become dependent upon these maps that the poorly received BN tier split hoped to cull.

In conclusion, why would you reject this map, rather than the uncreative, thoughtless maps that have flooded this difficulty level? I consider this to be a step in the right direction, not the wrong one. This player level needs introduction to more interesting, diverse maps on their level, and we can’t achieve that by forcing them to play the same thing repeatedly.

tl;dr: Hard diffs should never have been made into the generic mess that they are today. This map challenging something other than aim is not a reason for concern, the fact that you think it is is quite indicative of how much you care about the people who are actually going to play the map.

osu file format v14

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262,46,201754,1,2,0:0:0:0:
172,20,201915,2,0,B|132:26|132:26|90:20,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
194,110,202238,2,0,B|204:169|204:169|189:231,1,116.999996429443,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
182,243,202560,6,0,B|177:283|177:283|181:337,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
313,330,202883,2,0,B|318:290|318:290|314:236,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
254,126,203205,1,8,1:2:0:0:
344,150,203367,1,0,1:0:0:0:
250,147,203528,2,0,B|211:147|211:147|152:134,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
85,106,203850,70,0,B|88:170|88:170|68:237,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
65,238,204173,2,0,B|111:232|111:232|166:243,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
235,292,204496,2,0,B|291:306|291:306|371:298,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
373,293,204818,2,0,B|369:339|369:339|380:384,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
455,222,205141,5,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205786,2,0,P|442:170|291:258,1,318.499990280152,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:

Net0

1,238 posts

Joined October 2014

Net0 2017-08-12T04:10:01+00:00

Mun wrote:
tl;dr: Hard diffs should never have been made into the generic mess that they are today. This map challenging something other than aim is not a reason for concern, the fact that you think it is is quite indicative of how much you care about the people who are actually going to play the map.

I think that beyond the point made by mun (which I agree) ,you guys are also not considering difficulty spread in the most appropriate way.
Difficulty spread related to osu! std COULD be simplified by spacing/rhythm intensity. It's also very typical that a lot of mappers create their beatmaps with this standards of creating; a basic rhythm/spacing interpretation of the song and from that point on they start to scale things. However this mapset is not that simple, there's a lot more concepts in terms of how the spread was done here. Beyond rhythm density and spacing, you can add to the spread here reading capacity and slider design difficulty (there's more ,but related to hard diff this two are worth giving more input).

If you check the progression of easy -> normal you will see that there was a 1/1 gapping understanding progressivelly done. While in my diff there was only 1 spot I could made a stack out of DS Mikasa did two more while still making it a regular normal diff. The same thing could be said about slider shapes, while in my diff there's basically 6 different shapes; 01:22:560 (1) - /01:27:721 (1) - /01:37:399 (8) - /01:38:044 (1) - /02:24:496 (1) - /02:43:850 (1) - , Mikasa did a lot more of variety introducing the idea of different sliders that will be presented in the later diffs.

From normal to hard there's the introduction of a new game aspect required from the player; reading capacity. I don't want to repeat Mun again, but it's done in a not very hard way and makes sense, especially if you guys consider that the reading skill required in hard will be fully used and more explored on Mir's Insane. You see, the overlapping pattern on Mun's diff was done on the very start of the map basically because of the lower rhythm density and his other reasoning, since doing it on kiai would make it a lot harder than it needs. That's why Mir Insane develops even more that concept on the chorus, meaning that the player will be fully experienced with different slider shapes and reading skills in order to play the top diff.

tl;dr: Hard diff makes sense if you consider spread a mapping term that goes beyond spacing/rhythm density and actually look into the mapset concepts applied.

Lasse

Beatmap Nominator

3,596 posts

Joined June 2011

Lasse 2017-08-12T06:12:00+00:00

hard is cute, would hate to see it changed just for the sake of "better readability"

nothing wrong with making things a bit more complex to read at this difficulty level and it's still far from "hard" to read.
all patterns are pretty clear if you pay some attention when playing instead of mindlessly throwing your cursor around

let me know if you need help getting this requalified in case the other bn won't be allowed to icon again due to whatever dq/veto/disagreement stuff

Okoratu

Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator

4,912 posts

Joined May 2012

Okoratu 2017-08-12T09:41:55+00:00

if at all mun's doing the gimmick right by throwing it at the player right off the bat and then building around it

if you can't read slightly crunched up patterns you can play the beginning of the map over and over until you can comprehend them to then move on through it
all you ideally should need to do to line.png is cutting it down a bit because a bunch of it seems to be unused transparency - will need to redo their positioning slightly though but that shouldnt be the biggest hassle - the mist files do have a bunch of that too and i dont think any of that was done for the sake of positioning

out of kiai the only thing that also bugs me a bit is that your base spacing in relation to the SV you use makes everything feel odd because between slider movements are fucking giant in relation to most between circle movements because sliders go so slowly and circles dont have much space either to begin with

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-12T13:29:28+00:00

Jako is fixing the line.png and while he's at it is also optimizing the load and making it look better.

After he is complete, I'll contact Nao and Sergio for re-qualification. The minor changes Mir and Mun applied are just that - minor. And as pointed out, I feel Mun's Hard fully encompasses good ideas and solid conceptual execution, no matter how much "Those Who Cannot Comprehend Overlaps" overestimate the difficulty of "Overlaps".

Kurai

osu! Alumni

7,734 posts

Joined March 2009

Kurai 2017-08-12T16:53:12+00:00

Mun wrote:
and follow the song.

You will have to elaborate a bit on that. What do those overlaps follow? To me it looks like you are randomly using them as they do not highlight anything in particular in the song. To be honest, there is no consistency in the way you are using your patterns (e.g. why would 01:39:334 (1,3) - be sliders and not 01:40:625 (1) - ?) and you are essentially following the main instrument while paying no intentions to the others (Why is 01:22:560 - until 01:43:205 - the exact same as 01:43:205 - until 02:01:270 - when there is clearly a change of atmosphere?). As a result you just end up having a pretty linear map with only 1/2 consecutive patters; I fail to see the diversity in that, it's just another generic Hard difficulty with a terrible approach at introducing varied, innovative, and interesting patterns.

Don't get me wrong, I like overlaps and I am all for introducing them in Hard difficulties if they are properly and seldomly used (i.e. they have to highlight something particular in the song), but here you are just abusing them for no real reason. Like it or not, overlaps do increase the difficulty of a map as they are less evident to read, there is already a huge gap between Normal and Hard density-wise and you are manifestly making it worse by over using those overlaps coupled with some jumps and a high SV during the kiai (my point: you are introducing too many gimmicks at once and a difficulty between Normal and Hard should be added). It's a shame because I really do like what you've done during the kiai.

Also, there is no need to whine about that on Discord, the map was DQ'd mainly because of the storyboard. If you are able to provide a proper reasoning as to why you should keep those overlaps, then I'm fine with this getting requalified as it is, don't just give me the creativity card, overlaps have been around for far longer than your account has.

________________________

You forgot to update the Easy.

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-12T17:10:43+00:00

Kurai wrote:
Mun wrote:
and follow the song.
You will have to elaborate a bit on that. What do those overlaps follow? To me it looks like you are randomly using them as they do not highlight anything in particular in the song. To be honest, there is no consistency in the way you are using your patterns (e.g. why would 01:39:334 (1,3) - be sliders and not 01:40:625 (1) - ?) and you are essentially following the main instrument while paying no intentions to the others (Why is 01:22:560 - until 01:43:205 - the exact same as 01:43:205 - until 02:01:270 - when there is clearly a change of atmosphere?). As a result you just end up having a pretty linear map with only 1/2 consecutive patters; I fail to see the diversity in that, it's just another generic Hard difficulty with a terrible approach at introducing varied, innovative, and interesting patterns.

Don't get me wrong, I like overlaps and I am all for introducing them in Hard difficulties if they are properly and seldomly used (i.e. they have to highlight something particular in the song), but here you are just abusing them for no real reason. Like it or not, overlaps do increase the difficulty of a map as they are less evident to read, there is already a huge gap between Normal and Hard density-wise and you are manifestly making it worse by over using those overlaps coupled with some jumps and a high SV during the kiai (my point: you are introducing too many gimmicks at once and a difficulty between Normal and Hard should be added). It's a shame because I really do like what you've done during the kiai.

Also, there is no need to whine about that on Discord, the map was DQ'd mainly because of the storyboard. If you are able to provide a proper reasoning as to why you should keep those overlaps, then I'm fine with this getting requalified as it is, don't just give me the creativity card, overlaps have been around for far longer than your account has.

Excuse me?

What kind of hilarious nonsense are you spouting, here? The only "gimmick" being introduced is pattern-based reading comprehension. You literally just said it adds nothing else to any other "Generic hard difficulty" but you're acting as if that instantly makes it an Insane and provides an unfair, unacceptable increase in difficulty. Pick one. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "It's a boring, generic Hard outside of [x]" and then say "[x] is unacceptable for a Hard difficulty". If it was unacceptable for a Hard, it wouldn't be able to be a "boring, generic Hard" without it to begin with. Again, incompetent players and modders like you heavily overestimate the challenge presented by repetitive overlapping patterns rather than whack-a-mole

The Normal is already fairly off-key and has its own "challenges" for Normal players, but I don't see you bitching about that.

I would really prefer if you just outright state that you, Kurai, are vetoing this map on actual, firm grounds, rather than display your opinions. Because I, and Mun, and probably the people who qualified this set to begin with, do not share your vehemence in the potential difficulty of the overlaps.

So I'd really prefer you just state your veto, or get out of my map thread.

Because I don't care what you think. You were old news four years ago.

(also, I haven't updated much at all. I'll get around to it when Jako finishes the SB fiddling.)

Last edited by Shiirn 2017-08-12T17:12:22+00:00, edited 4 times in total.

Mun

468 posts

Joined July 2015

Mun 2017-08-12T17:10:56+00:00

Weren't you the one who complained at me about me being "assive-aggressive?" It looks to me like you're looking for a fight, not improving a map. What sort of an example are you setting as someone who's supposed to be an exemplary modder and a protector of good behavior? Though this is entirely unbefitting of someone of your stature, that's beside the point.

The overlaps aren't highlighting any single part of the music. The overlaps are a representation of the complexity of the rhythm itself, following the patterns in the song - nothing more. The differences in patterns are there to provide a varied gameplay experience, something I wouldn't do again if I were to map it today, but not something necessarily wrong or unrankable.

Thanks for caring so much about making the map better that you feel the need to make fun of the mapper behind their back to improve it! That's a length I would never have had the idea to go to, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-08-12T18:12:06+00:00

Mun wrote:
Let's talk a little bit about lower difficulties and spread, and the damage that the current "standards" for such lower difficulties have dealt to the playerbase. For the purposes of this current controversy, I will be singling out Hard diffs.

Mappers hate this difficulty level. On every level, from new to ancient, you can see that mappers simply refuse to map low diffs for the player - Hard is no exception. The needs of the playerbase are met on almost no level at all. The requirements for Hard difficulties seem to completely contradict the purpose of making them in the first place. Due to the hatred for creativity and variety in Hard difficulties, those on the skill level that play them are left entirely bereft of engaging and interesting maps. Now that's some huge generalizing here, and doesn't support any reason as to why exactly this hard is acceptable as a hard difficulty - the problems remain and the standards for a hard difficulty certainly won't change just because "mappers hate this difficulty level".

The problem you seem to have is that the map is too hard to read. For whatever reason, Hard diff players must have the observational and pattern-recognition skills of a baked potato, and we must cater to their tragic incompetence! It is a terribly unfortunate condition, that players must be subjected to these painstakingly generic, slightly more challenging Normal difficulties that are, for whatever reason, labeled as “Hard.” It seems almost patronizing. You also have to take the spread into account. If you take a look at the Easy, you basically have 1/1 with a lot of gaps. Followed by the normal, you get introduced by a new element, 1/2. Reading the difficulty won't be a problem, as everything is cleanly placed - the 1/2 as well is not overused and thus fits the spread in a well manner. Next up is your hard, where you seem to introduce a lot of new concepts, a highly increased density as well as 1/4.
This is where it becomes too much - justifying this by being "readable" is not valid because apart from the overlaps, you've added a lot of new things in this map. Renaming it to Light Insane might work, I feel like that'd be approprite, but that however doesn't solve the spread issue here. So making your life easy by just typing some new letters definitely won't bring you forward.

In conclusion, why would you reject this map, rather than the uncreative, thoughtless maps that have flooded this difficulty level? I consider this to be a step in the right direction, not the wrong one. This player level needs introduction to more interesting, diverse maps on their level, and we can’t achieve that by forcing them to play the same thing repeatedly. You can also make hard difficulties by keeping a proper spread in mind and introducing new concepts. All I can see here is laziness, and not really much else. It's not meant offensively, but it honestly seems like it. But anyways, offering a proper spread is not up to you in the long run (here), it's up to Shiirn.

Shiirn wrote:
After he is complete, I'll contact Nao and Sergio for re-qualification. The minor changes Mir and Mun applied are just that - minor. And as pointed out, I feel Mun's Hard fully encompasses good ideas and solid conceptual execution, no matter how much "Those Who Cannot Comprehend Overlaps" overestimate the difficulty of "Overlaps".

It irks me a lot that you ~~seemingly~~ do not care about anything that's been said in this thread and simply stamp it off by saying people are not capable of understanding whatever you have mapped. I cannot see any reasonable argument in this thread so far as to why exactly everything is alright as it should be, except from the usual "subjectivity"-"creatvitiy"-"uncapability"-talk.

I'm looking forward to see changes into the right direction and am willing to mod it furtherly if you have tried adjusting stuff yourself, because there is plenty of information floating around in this thread as of now.

EDIT: Welp, in the post before me you've stated that you actually do not care. It's beyond me why you always start having an insultive manner as soon as your maps receive the tiniest amount of criticism.

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-12T18:29:38+00:00

It's just your and Kurai's criticism, don't worry. I don't treat everyone as badly as you.

If you can't handle someone shutting down your advice - as holy and erstwhile as it may be - then maybe there'll be a problem from the start. I haven't seen you guys say anything about the difficulty other than "The overlaps don't make sense" when Mun has already explained that they're there as a visual tool. If you don't like that, then we're at an impasse.

If you want to speak with Mun about re-organizing his overlapping patterns into your consistency-based vision of music, I actually approve - seeking that sort of middle ground is good. But if you just want to throw away the idea entirely because it's executed (again, in your eyes) poorly, then you have no purpose here.

Re: the difficulty spread; yeah it's kind of large but like in another map we clashed over, putting a diff in between is just going to be making up an arbitrary rhythm and sticking to it consistently. It's not going to be following the music in any respectable manner, it'll just be ticking off a few boxes saying (x)Object density between Normal and Hard, and (x)Spacing between Normal and Hard. And I'm not a fan of that. If you want to veto over that, that's fine - I'll make a middle ground difficulty myself - but you lose the right to bitch about it being arbitrary and making up a middle ground rhythm once it's finished.

And the SB concerns are totally valid. Kind of asinine, but totally valid.

Voli

811 posts

Joined April 2013

Voli 2017-08-12T18:37:28+00:00

Some of my concerns with the hard..

01:22:560 (1,2) - I don't think this is a good way to introduce a hard, or well, any map with. You instantly go into a super harsh angle with a repeat which doesn't play well and isn't suitable for a hard.

01:25:302 (2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - A lot of these patterns, aside from the issues mentioned earlier, simply bear too little resemblance to the music. A few examples:
You sacrficied correct spacing emphasis for an overlap in some places like here 01:25:141 (1,2) -, 01:46:592 (4,5) - etc.
While I agree with 01:25:786 (1,2) - being 2 clickable notes and therefore differentiated from the rest of these (slider) patterns, I don't see any reason 01:26:431 (1,2) - are given the exact same treatment. Moreover, here 01:27:399 (5) - you forced symmetry by adding another slider, while this should in fact be 2 notes again just like 01:25:786 (1,2) - , if we listen to the music. The same occurs in patterns like 01:35:463 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - , where the movement and object placement seems very forced into a certain gimmick that doesn't make much sense with how the music is composed.
01:40:625 (1) - what happened to the sharp direction change you managed in other places like 01:38:044 (1) - ? Suddenly it's just very weak and not distinguishable? 01:45:786 (1) - 01:48:367 (1,2) - same
01:43:367 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5) - So here you decided to just drop the overlaps/back and forth movements completely? In my opinion, this is where the map gets much better, but it also shows that the gimmick is used very inconsistently and doesn't make sense in the bigger picture. If you were to keep this gimmick in the first part of the map, then I'd expect to see it returning in some way later on as well. As of now, instead of it looking like a thoughtful gimmick, it looks more like you're forcing unnecessarily hard read/play patterns on the calmest parts of the song.

A lot of repeats are also covered for a large portion which is part of the argument against the playability for a hard. The time the player has to notice some of these is very short, either because it's immediately covered by another object in the exact same direction, or it appears under an already existing objects. Examples of these include 01:25:302 (2,3) - , 01:51:592 (5,1) - 01:35:625 (2,5) -
Aside from all that, my own subjective (because god forbid we talk about this subject in 2017) opinion is that the quality of the aesthetics in the first part of the map is suffering as well. You used almost exclusively slightly curved sliders that alter a little bit in their shape every pattern. makes the map look bland and unorganized. Your overlaps are sometimes inconsistent too, such as here 01:38:205 (2) - I like your visuals a lot better in the kiai though.

I hope you can consider some of these things.

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-08-12T18:38:31+00:00

Shiirn wrote:
It's just your and Kurai's criticism, don't worry. I don't treat everyone as badly as you.
We shall not take a look at other maps where this happened, shall we

If you can't handle someone shutting down your advice - as holy and erstwhile as it may be - then maybe there'll be a problem from the start. I haven't seen you guys say anything about the difficulty other than "The overlaps don't make sense" when Mun has already explained that they're there as a visual tool. If you don't like that, then we're at an impasse. There's a difference between shutting down someones advice and just blantantly overwriting it with irrelevant arguments like you do it all the time. Yeah, if you want to make it that easy to yourself, then there's that. Saying that it's a visual tool is one thing, but granting a proper spread and a proper leveled difficulty is something else.

If you want to speak with Mun about re-organizing his overlapping patterns into your consistency-based vision of music, I actually approve - seeking that sort of middle ground is good. But if you just want to throw away the idea entirely because it's executed (again, in your eyes) poorly, then you have no purpose here. That's a step into the right direction I believe, but seeing the counter that was received so far, I believe that it's up to him to approach one of the people who exerted criticism and then we'll look further.

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-12T18:52:23+00:00

Again, I wonder why it's always "If you want to meet in the middle, you start walking first" with you.

I happily accept criticism and suggestions that will improve upon my vision of the map. Suggestions and criticism that I find irrelevant or actively detrimental after considering it (If I had not already considered it before, i'd say at an offhand, 30-40% of suggestions are something I've already considered and decided not to do) will be turned down.

This extends wildly into what you think maps should be and what I think maps should be. Our mapping philosophies are wildly different and, at most times, wildly incompatible. You discard everything I hold dear as "pointless bullshit" just as easily as you think I discard what you hold dear.

But I don't. I think your style of representing music, and how you like music to be represented, is perfectly fine and valid. I respect it. I don't go into your maps and take them apart piece by piece because at a fundamental level I think they're fine. I don't claim to fully "get" it, because again, blue and orange mentality clashes, but outside of the usual friend-circle memey barbs everyone makes about everyone else's mapping, I don't say a damn thing about you, Irre. I have nothing left to do but either directly respond to your aggression - which will get me silenced, mocked, or distanced from your acquaintances who are afraid to be seen associated with me because it'll make you think negatively of them - or just outright ignore you as best I can.

You leave me no choice in how to interact with you.

And somehow it still ends up being my fault because I'm the one refusing to capitulate.

jeanbernard8865

600 posts

Joined December 2014

jeanbernard8865 2017-08-12T19:01:03+00:00

I'm actually considering subbing to this thread for the drama

as much as I like that kind of thing, can't y'all just get along ?

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-08-12T19:06:16+00:00

Shiirn wrote:
Again, I wonder why it's always "If you want to meet in the middle, you start walking first" with you. Isn't the first step already done though? If my try to approach you doesn't work, how else would you like me to approach it? Ultimatively, no one of us is obliged to agree with anything, but this effectively will lead to the fact that I won't support this map as well as might hold it back further because from what I've seen so far, nothing has changed so that it'd fit the guidelines and rules we have. But we should wait until Mun posts more, in this case.

I happily accept criticism and suggestions that will improve upon my vision of the map. Suggestions and criticism that I find irrelevant or actively detrimental after considering it (If I had not already considered it before, i'd say at an offhand, 30-40% of suggestions are something I've already considered and decided not to do) will be turned down. Then please act accordingly? "Happily accepting criticism" and insulting people in the manner you do it is pretty contradicting, isn't it?

You leave me no choice in how to interact with you. You keep argumenting with stuff like "I feel that it's fine." Well, how does that give me a proper ground for argumentations as well? Other people might disagree with you, but then don't expect them to cooperate.

And somehow it still ends up being my fault because I'm the one refusing to capitulate. No one has spoken of it being someones fault, but all paragraphs somehow lead together to the fact that you can't expect that there will be no resistance after replies like there are here. Simply labeling everything off and then saying "I'll call BN X and Y back" while literally nothing has been sorted out is not really supporting your point of happily accepting criticism either.

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-12T19:15:39+00:00

I insult kurai because he's made an embarrassment out of himself and the titles he has, not because I disagree with his suggestions (that's just a symptom). Just like I don't insult you because you haven't made an embarrassment out of yourself or the titles you have. Just kind of treat this shit awkwardly.

If you want to work with Mun, go ahead. Kurai's not likely to be any use at all to the difficulty, but you absolutely would. That's between you and Mun. Just don't neuter the concept :thinking:

Otherwise, waiting on jako and will update the rest when that's figured out.

Mun

468 posts

Joined July 2015

Mun 2017-08-12T19:27:52+00:00

Voli wrote:
Some of my concerns with the hard..

01:22:560 (1,2) - I don't think this is a good way to introduce a hard, or well, any map with. You instantly go into a super harsh angle with a repeat which doesn't play well and isn't suitable for a hard.
"Doesn't play well" isn't a valid criticism. I struggle to find where any of you are getting your ideas of "suitable for a hard" from. Does it mean I need 0 overlaps, and a highly generic distance-snapped map with note density hardly above Normal difficulty, and no intentional gameplay mechanics?

01:25:302 (2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - A lot of these patterns, aside from the issues mentioned earlier, simply bear too little resemblance to the music. A few examples:
You sacrficied correct spacing emphasis for an overlap in some places like here 01:25:141 (1,2) -, 01:46:592 (4,5) - etc. Trying to make this map work with spacing emphasis would leave it laughably unstructured. Implying my map is worse at following the song due to its lack of a concept it is not intended to follow is inaccurate.

While I agree with 01:25:786 (1,2) - being 2 clickable notes and therefore differentiated from the rest of these (slider) patterns, I don't see any reason 01:26:431 (1,2) - are given the exact same treatment. Moreover, here 01:27:399 (5) - you forced symmetry by adding another slider, while this should in fact be 2 notes again just like 01:25:786 (1,2) - , if we listen to the music. "If we listen to the music." I can't believe I'm the one who gets called out for being passive-aggressive when people say stuff like this. The same occurs in patterns like 01:35:463 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - , where the movement and object placement seems very forced into a certain gimmick that doesn't make much sense with how the music is composed. Fair enough, I'll change some of these. As for some of them - notice that in all of these overlap stacks, any reverse sliders are placed on top for a more readable and predictable map. Without entirely breaking the pattern and aesthetic, I can find no way to differentiate how some of these are played. Of course, if you want to do what mods are usually supposed to do and provide suggestions instead of just saying "this doesn't make sense," be my guest. As it stands, I have found no way to 'improve' some of them.

01:40:625 (1) - what happened to the sharp direction change you managed in other places like 01:38:044 (1) - ? Suddenly it's just very weak and not distinguishable? 01:45:786 (1) - 01:48:367 (1,2) - same same

01:43:367 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5) - So here you decided to just drop the overlaps/back and forth movements completely? In my opinion, this is where the map gets much better, but it also shows that the gimmick is used very inconsistently and doesn't make sense in the bigger picture. If you were to keep this gimmick in the first part of the map, then I'd expect to see it returning in some way later on as well. As of now, instead of it looking like a thoughtful gimmick, it looks more like you're forcing unnecessarily hard read/play patterns on the calmest parts of the song. "If we listen to the song," a new layer is added. Though I may have exaggerated the difference made by the song's evolution, the change here does not make my map "inconsistent" or "not make sense." What is this, Confirmation Bias: The Mod?

A lot of repeats are also covered for a large portion which is part of the argument against the playability for a hard. The time the player has to notice some of these is very short, either because it's immediately covered by another object in the exact same direction, or it appears under an already existing objects. Examples of these include 01:25:302 (2,3) - , 01:51:592 (5,1) - 01:35:625 (2,5) - I fixed that buzz slider slip-up, but I'm honestly surprised that you paid so much attention to the reverse sliders and yet didn't notice that every single slider with a reverse arrow is on top of its stack.
Aside from all that, my own subjective (because god forbid we talk about this subject in 2017) opinion is that the quality of the aesthetics in the first part of the map is suffering as well. You used almost exclusively slightly curved sliders that alter a little bit in their shape every pattern. makes the map look bland and unorganized. Your overlaps are sometimes inconsistent too, such as here 01:38:205 (2) - I like your visuals a lot better in the kiai though. what are you talking about lol fixed inconsistent overlap, though

I hope you can consider some of these things.

mod

osu file format v14

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Title:forest of the spirits
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Tags:blood orange mikasaserket net0 mir mun mecha dubstep dance  electronic ambient glitch noise pretty soundfont York
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65,238,204173,2,0,B|111:232|111:232|166:243,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
235,292,204496,2,0,B|291:306|291:306|371:298,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
373,293,204818,2,0,B|369:339|369:339|380:384,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
455,222,205141,5,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205786,2,0,P|442:170|291:258,1,318.499990280152,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-12T19:41:46+00:00

Updated hard and easy

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-13T01:40:10+00:00

updated storyboard, check if it fits ur standards

Zetera

Medal Hunter

1,019 posts

Joined November 2010

Zetera 2017-08-13T09:37:29+00:00

Okay, thanks to mister Starcaller over there, I feel compelled to moderate this thread a little harshlier.

Make sure you keep it appropriate guys, alright?

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-08-14T17:57:10+00:00

~~Talking with Jako currently to furtherly improve the SB.~~
SB is fine now!

It'd be cool if you could credit the storyboarder properly by adding him to the tags as well (as it's normally handled like this).

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-14T18:53:31+00:00

I forgot, honestly. I was going to add him after it was actually complete (Because for a few months it was up in the air). I always do that but it never came up. Adding it.

Nao Tomori

Nomination Assessment Team

3,089 posts

Joined December 2014

Nao Tomori 2017-08-16T15:09:29+00:00

ok, sb fixed. lets try again

Seijiro

osu! Alumni

3,438 posts

Joined April 2013

Seijiro 2017-08-16T22:25:19+00:00

I feel strange about the situation...
Above all when I see people on both sides saying "if Mun wants I'm here for further improvement" while no one actually takes action and improves it as they say. From my pov this is just... meh... That's not the spirit of modding (if you really care about the map)
I know it might be a pain, but complaining only is too easy :<

That aside tho, Mun's reasoning about Hard diffs is kinda awkward too lol. Assuming everyone hates Hard diffs for whatever reason seems a bit too generalized...
I personally love making them and while I do agree the restriction brought from old mapping make them boring I find that comment a bit too far from reality.
These diffs are also the most played diffs, based on some statistics Eph showed some time ago, so idk about the general hate against this diff tbh (sorry, forgot what thread that was in, no link to it)

Regardless of both sides tho, I find strange how we find ourselves fighting with each other on things that maybe we don't even play or have the right perception on.
The map has been in qualified for a (maybe short) while, so if people had complaints about the Hard they could have spoken. I refer to those who play Hard diffs, not experienced players testplaying it and assuming things based on their knowledge, nor modders.
It is a matter of facts that no one has the mentality of those old days to really say "this is inappropriate" or not for such a diff.
I had a similar problem on one of my mapsets and I asked around testplays to make sure things work well enough for the target audience. If you have doubts pick users of a certain range and make them testplay the map instead of saying "they won't be able to read this" or whatever. I find that more fair towards everyone, mappers and players.

Aaaaaanyway, while I can agree the set can be cleaner from an aesthetic point of view I find the concept consistent in the Hard, hence why I firstly qualified this. I will just bring up a couple things I didn't point out last time since idk.. they slipped from my mind

Mun dear,
- 01:31:270 (1) - the SV like that has almost no impact, if it was supposed to be like a simplification of the SV changes from the top diffs. What about this?
- 01:35:463 (1,2) - minor, but seeing they have both the same hitsound I would have stacked them. They feel kinda strange with movement between them =w=" Mostly because I see stuff like 01:38:044 (1,2) - which is identical but differently hitsounded so I am a bit "?.? why"
- 01:50:947 (1,2) - other hitsounding that makes little sense. Change hitsounds or pattern, because that way you're telling me the tail should have a click
- 03:05:141 (3,4,5) - mentioned this to Shiirn before, but we ended up in a little conflict over it so I left it there. I would rather have your opinion too about (4), since it kinda dilutes the focus of your pattern. Yes, there technically is a really soft beat on 03:05:302 - but it's in background and I find it a bit messy to add it above the more important foreground sound here
- 03:25:786 (3) - not the first one, but non-silenced tails which aren't used tilt me a bit

Cheri

1,770 posts

Joined November 2014

Cheri 2017-08-16T22:56:25+00:00

Notice this beatmap for a while - As a person who can only play hard atm (my rank shows it all)- I find this a bit different but overall fun and nothing too hard at all
- Idk what the big deal with some aspect being too hard for people like me since I had no problem with this map and can easily fc it if I wanted to and looking forward to it being the next rank map for me to play

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-08-16T23:48:27+00:00

MrSergio wrote:
I feel strange about the situation...
Above all when I see people on both sides saying "if Mun wants I'm here for further improvement" while no one actually takes action and improves it as they say. From my pov this is just... meh... That's not the spirit of modding (if you really care about the map)
I know it might be a pain, but complaining only is too easy :<

Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-16T23:53:24+00:00

MrSergio wrote:
I had a similar problem on one of my mapsets and I asked around testplays to make sure things work well enough for the target audience. If you have doubts pick users of a certain range and make them testplay the map instead of saying "they won't be able to read this" or whatever. I find that more fair towards everyone, mappers and players.

I guess you want Mun to go and screenshot multi lobbies asking them to play his difficulty because apparently having actual Hard difficulty players come in and compliment the map as something they enjoyed isn't evidence for you? But people outside of the difficulty level can claim it isn't suitable? What kind of messed-up, backwards system of thinking is that?

MrSergio wrote:
the set can be cleaner from an aesthetic point of view

Missing the point. Just because there isn't geometric pretty angled structured patterns doesn't mean that there isn't an inherent purpose or intent to the map.

Irreversible wrote:
Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.

I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do.

Nobody else talked about shit in regards to the map's un-readiness-to-be-ranked.

So politely, fuck this.

If actively going out and trying to make sure things are at least "whatever, fine" (Because none of you really care about the map, you just don't want a precedent to be set) is being "just ignore the whole circumstances", then screw ranking this. Go ahead and lock it.

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-08-17T00:12:51+00:00

Shiirn wrote:
Irreversible wrote:
Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do. My apologies then for blaming you then, but things are not fine in its current state yet. One thing that might be able to help you is to actually start unblocking me so you can actually talk to me as well when there is something like this ongoing. I have talked to Voli and I honestly couldn't conclude from the conversation that he stated something like it's being fine and ready to receive a rebub as well yet, so where are you getting your information from anyways?

So politely, fuck this.

If actively going out and trying to make sure things are at least "whatever, fine" (Because none of you really care about the map, you just don't want a precedent to be set) is being "just ignore the whole circumstances", then screw ranking this. Go ahead and lock it. If I wouldn't care about the map, I wouldn't have talked to Mun and tried to help optimizing it, now you're the one laying words into my mouth and actions zz

Let's try to focus on the map though, because talking about attitude ultimatively won't help this mapset,..
from my point of view I'd be delighted if Mun could speak up about an optimization of his diff if he wants to keep his concept up, or otherwise you might as well just add another diff to get rid off the spread issues

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-17T00:19:22+00:00

Why the hell would I unblock you when every moment we've ever talked off-forum has been you vaguely or not-so-vaguely mocking me nonstop? Blame your own behavior towards me for forcing me to speak to you either on the forums or via a third party.

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-08-17T01:02:46+00:00

Shiirn wrote:
Why the hell would I unblock you when every moment we've ever talked off-forum has been you vaguely or not-so-vaguely mocking me nonstop? Blame your own behavior towards me for forcing me to speak to you either on the forums or via a third party.

No need to play the innocent lamb now. I don't have a disadvantage from talking to you through third party, so you can blame yourself for the actions that were needed to be taken - it was solely an offer so you might be able to get your map back to ranked with more ease, but if you decide against that and risk more emotional outbursts then we can stick to that.

Nao Tomori

Nomination Assessment Team

3,089 posts

Joined December 2014

Nao Tomori 2017-08-17T11:09:14+00:00

Anyway should we just get a bunch of results from 200ks? I'm sure you understand that since all of this discussion was evidently done in private i couldn't see if stuff was happening. I just asked shiirn if issues were resolved with you and kurai (probably not the best idea, admittedly) and he said yes. If they're not, please explain a bit more on what you'd like to see changed / fixed and preferably not just"remove all overlaps." If it's a consistency issue, I'm sure i can work on it with mun. However, i need to know the issue first and as of know it seems to be that overlaps were used at all which i don't think should be a reason to stop the map from being ranked.

Seijiro

osu! Alumni

3,438 posts

Joined April 2013

Seijiro 2017-08-17T20:34:36+00:00

I implied that having a bunch of testplays on the current version might make the all fighting over this stuff end once and for all.
Also, I wasn't attacking you about aesthetics, I was just stating that it is not as clean as it could be, not that I won't requal, geez... why do you take it like that...

Anyway, things seem to have moved in some direction or another so for the time being I don't really have to do much here apparently.
I honestly am not a fan of all the "nice words" you use, Shiirn, so maybe let's at least avoid that. It is surely not a good example for anyone

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-18T04:25:43+00:00

removed

Chaos

osu! Alumni

244 posts

Joined May 2013

Chaos 2017-08-18T05:08:52+00:00

Shiirn asked me to lock this so here I am I guess.

Ephemeral

Inland Empire

3,936 posts

Joined April 2009

Ephemeral 2017-08-23T11:33:13+00:00

what the fuck is this shit?

i sit down and mod your map and turn moddingv2 on for it, and you give up because irreversible called you names or some shit and people have some issues with things that might be a bit controversial? take feedback into account, digest it, and try to make your map better.

get it done. i want to see this beatmap ranked and improved in the process. the song alone deserves as much.

Shiirn

2,896 posts

Joined August 2010

Topic Starter

Shiirn 2017-08-23T11:34:56+00:00

The changes or solutions proposed and demanded are unreasonable to us and beyond what we feel respect our map or the music itself.

In other words, proposed changes don't make us feel it will improve the map, only satisfy the demands of people we don't agree with to begin with. That, or make us go through silly bullshit just for them to make up more hoops to jump through.

If you have a problem with that, that's unfortunate.

'S more than just a temper tantrum. This has happened before with my sets when a certain person became involved, and I ended up hating the entire process and the song itself. I'd rather not hate forest as much as I hate cherry blossoms and routing, thanks.

zev

462 posts

Joined September 2015

zev 2017-08-23T21:54:29+00:00

nice map

sakuraburst - forest of the spirits

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sakuraburst - forest of the spirits

Kurai wrote:

Kisses wrote:

Kurai wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

Mun wrote:

Mun wrote:

Kurai wrote:

Mun wrote:

Mun wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Voli wrote:

MrSergio wrote:

MrSergio wrote:

MrSergio wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

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