fwiw i think this should be bpm halved
:Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand:Mir wrote:
what if you're aiming for fc and you miss when the song gets good?
Zetera wrote:
I was just wondering whether you need to map the beginning as well, or at least cut it.
At its current state, the map starts at 36.4% and ends at 90.9%, meaning that you are missing out on 45.6% of the song (not accounting for breaks). In other words: You only mapped 54.4%, which is below the 80% rule. I know, you don't have to account for the intro if you leave less than 20% of the outro, but isn't this example kind of stretching it?
First of all, you do have the option to have the mp3 cut, but you used storyboard elements in the beginning instead. Now, if these elements were especially emphatic, I wouldn't mind that at all, but all I see is a fade-in, which you could have also done at your last unmapped/unstoryboarded bookmark of the intro. You could've used a water surface ripple and the fade-in over here and would've been able to cut the beginning.
Secondly, you had the option to map the intro via sliderart and a couple of 1/1 circles. If you asked me, I think that'd be a great addition to your map, since it would contrast your Kiai just as well as or even better than using nothing in the beginning. Feels like you missed out on an opportunity there.
Obviously, you could just go with what you have, apply the 20% outro rule thing and you'd be good to go. But for me, this is a little underwhelming.
I really like the kiai atmosphere though!
Edit: Guess this was already deliberated on, but I felt like throwing in my 2c as well, because I feel like you have better options that still maintain that important contrast.
Kurai wrote:
So no one is going to mention that the SB load goes beyond 11,00x during the kiai when the SB is actually pretty basic? tbh SB load doesn't mean too much. It is this big because there are lots of overlapping mist sprites which are all scaled to be 1.33x sb load. The real performance issues come when there are many sprites. A good example of this can be seen in pretty much any complex SB. Also, there are maps with SB loads higher than that ranked (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1114962). However, I am cropping the mist files as much as possible and taking up Irre's suggestion with line.png
nostar.png is above 5MB and bgbaw.png 1,75MB. Why are those even .png files since there is no transparency? You could significantly reduce their filesize by converting them to .jpg Yep, my bad
agreedOvoui wrote:
Will you add another hard diff ? Because i don't think the spread is ok atm. The gap between normal and light insane is too big.
Mitkoff wrote:
Since it was dq.
@Mir
03:07:721 (4,5,6) - Can You please NotLikeThis?
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Ok no problem, you should take your responsability soon...Shiirn wrote:
I would be glad if you could make one, then.
Kurai wrote:
[Easy]
- 01:42:883 (9,1) - Pretty weird spacing.Well not something major but since it was DQ I might as well improve it! Thanks Kurai, more consistent 1,0x now.
?????????????????????????????????????????Kisses wrote:
Net0 joining in on the circlejerk :Ok_hand:
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Kurai wrote:
So no one is going to mention that the SB load goes beyond 11,00x during the kiai when the SB is actually pretty basic?
nostar.png is above 5MB and bgbaw.png 1,75MB. Why are those even .png files since there is no transparency? You could significantly reduce their filesize by converting them to .jpg
The gap between Normal and Hard is a bit too huge in my opinion. It's obvious just by looking at the object density of both difficulties: http://up.kuraip.net/0811z4E386h2516.png
[Hard]lol
- 01:33:528 (3,4,1,2,3) - Highly inappropriate for a Hard difficulty. Patterns should be easily sightreadable and overlaps like these are to be avoided.
- 01:35:625 (2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - ^
- 01:38:205 (2,3,4,1) - ^
- 01:45:947 (2,5) - ^
- 01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - ^
- 02:30:947 (1,2,3) - ^
- 02:34:979 (2,1,3) - ^
- 02:38:689 (1,3) - ^
- 02:39:979 (1,2,1,2) - ^
- 02:41:270 (1,2,1,2) - ^
- etc
I've got no time for a full mod atm, but if it ever gets DQ'd, I'll do a proper one. I believe it should at least for the SB load and those huge files.
Irreversible wrote:
Yo
hard
I've checked the concerns about this difficulty and I do agree that this is not suitable like in it's current state. The amount of stacks and overlaps is not appropriate for this difficulty and should thus be toned down.
01:41:270 - Also make sure to check this rhythm, as it seems off to what the song actually offers http://puu.sh/x7KIq/e347a35877.jpg Fixed!
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246,141,195463,1,8,1:0:0:0:
424,198,195625,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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421,331,196431,1,0,0:0:0:0:
330,308,196592,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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133,82,197883,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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414,115,199012,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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262,46,201754,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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182,243,202560,6,0,B|177:283|177:283|181:337,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
313,330,202883,2,0,B|318:290|318:290|314:236,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
254,126,203205,1,8,1:2:0:0:
344,150,203367,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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65,238,204173,2,0,B|111:232|111:232|166:243,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
235,292,204496,2,0,B|291:306|291:306|371:298,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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455,222,205141,5,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:
I think that beyond the point made by mun (which I agree) ,you guys are also not considering difficulty spread in the most appropriate way.Mun wrote:
tl;dr: Hard diffs should never have been made into the generic mess that they are today. This map challenging something other than aim is not a reason for concern, the fact that you think it is is quite indicative of how much you care about the people who are actually going to play the map.
You will have to elaborate a bit on that. What do those overlaps follow? To me it looks like you are randomly using them as they do not highlight anything in particular in the song. To be honest, there is no consistency in the way you are using your patterns (e.g. why would 01:39:334 (1,3) - be sliders and not 01:40:625 (1) - ?) and you are essentially following the main instrument while paying no intentions to the others (Why is 01:22:560 - until 01:43:205 - the exact same as 01:43:205 - until 02:01:270 - when there is clearly a change of atmosphere?). As a result you just end up having a pretty linear map with only 1/2 consecutive patters; I fail to see the diversity in that, it's just another generic Hard difficulty with a terrible approach at introducing varied, innovative, and interesting patterns.Mun wrote:
and follow the song.
Excuse me?Kurai wrote:
You will have to elaborate a bit on that. What do those overlaps follow? To me it looks like you are randomly using them as they do not highlight anything in particular in the song. To be honest, there is no consistency in the way you are using your patterns (e.g. why would 01:39:334 (1,3) - be sliders and not 01:40:625 (1) - ?) and you are essentially following the main instrument while paying no intentions to the others (Why is 01:22:560 - until 01:43:205 - the exact same as 01:43:205 - until 02:01:270 - when there is clearly a change of atmosphere?). As a result you just end up having a pretty linear map with only 1/2 consecutive patters; I fail to see the diversity in that, it's just another generic Hard difficulty with a terrible approach at introducing varied, innovative, and interesting patterns.Mun wrote:
and follow the song.
Don't get me wrong, I like overlaps and I am all for introducing them in Hard difficulties if they are properly and seldomly used (i.e. they have to highlight something particular in the song), but here you are just abusing them for no real reason. Like it or not, overlaps do increase the difficulty of a map as they are less evident to read, there is already a huge gap between Normal and Hard density-wise and you are manifestly making it worse by over using those overlaps coupled with some jumps and a high SV during the kiai (my point: you are introducing too many gimmicks at once and a difficulty between Normal and Hard should be added). It's a shame because I really do like what you've done during the kiai.
Also, there is no need to whine about that on Discord, the map was DQ'd mainly because of the storyboard. If you are able to provide a proper reasoning as to why you should keep those overlaps, then I'm fine with this getting requalified as it is, don't just give me the creativity card, overlaps have been around for far longer than your account has.
Mun wrote:
Let's talk a little bit about lower difficulties and spread, and the damage that the current "standards" for such lower difficulties have dealt to the playerbase. For the purposes of this current controversy, I will be singling out Hard diffs.
Mappers hate this difficulty level. On every level, from new to ancient, you can see that mappers simply refuse to map low diffs for the player - Hard is no exception. The needs of the playerbase are met on almost no level at all. The requirements for Hard difficulties seem to completely contradict the purpose of making them in the first place. Due to the hatred for creativity and variety in Hard difficulties, those on the skill level that play them are left entirely bereft of engaging and interesting maps. Now that's some huge generalizing here, and doesn't support any reason as to why exactly this hard is acceptable as a hard difficulty - the problems remain and the standards for a hard difficulty certainly won't change just because "mappers hate this difficulty level".
The problem you seem to have is that the map is too hard to read. For whatever reason, Hard diff players must have the observational and pattern-recognition skills of a baked potato, and we must cater to their tragic incompetence! It is a terribly unfortunate condition, that players must be subjected to these painstakingly generic, slightly more challenging Normal difficulties that are, for whatever reason, labeled as “Hard.” It seems almost patronizing. You also have to take the spread into account. If you take a look at the Easy, you basically have 1/1 with a lot of gaps. Followed by the normal, you get introduced by a new element, 1/2. Reading the difficulty won't be a problem, as everything is cleanly placed - the 1/2 as well is not overused and thus fits the spread in a well manner. Next up is your hard, where you seem to introduce a lot of new concepts, a highly increased density as well as 1/4.
This is where it becomes too much - justifying this by being "readable" is not valid because apart from the overlaps, you've added a lot of new things in this map. Renaming it to Light Insane might work, I feel like that'd be approprite, but that however doesn't solve the spread issue here. So making your life easy by just typing some new letters definitely won't bring you forward.
In conclusion, why would you reject this map, rather than the uncreative, thoughtless maps that have flooded this difficulty level? I consider this to be a step in the right direction, not the wrong one. This player level needs introduction to more interesting, diverse maps on their level, and we can’t achieve that by forcing them to play the same thing repeatedly. You can also make hard difficulties by keeping a proper spread in mind and introducing new concepts. All I can see here is laziness, and not really much else. It's not meant offensively, but it honestly seems like it. But anyways, offering a proper spread is not up to you in the long run (here), it's up to Shiirn.
It irks me a lot that youShiirn wrote:
After he is complete, I'll contact Nao and Sergio for re-qualification. The minor changes Mir and Mun applied are just that - minor. And as pointed out, I feel Mun's Hard fully encompasses good ideas and solid conceptual execution, no matter how much "Those Who Cannot Comprehend Overlaps" overestimate the difficulty of "Overlaps".
Shiirn wrote:
It's just your and Kurai's criticism, don't worry. I don't treat everyone as badly as you.
We shall not take a look at other maps where this happened, shall we
If you can't handle someone shutting down your advice - as holy and erstwhile as it may be - then maybe there'll be a problem from the start. I haven't seen you guys say anything about the difficulty other than "The overlaps don't make sense" when Mun has already explained that they're there as a visual tool. If you don't like that, then we're at an impasse. There's a difference between shutting down someones advice and just blantantly overwriting it with irrelevant arguments like you do it all the time. Yeah, if you want to make it that easy to yourself, then there's that. Saying that it's a visual tool is one thing, but granting a proper spread and a proper leveled difficulty is something else.
If you want to speak with Mun about re-organizing his overlapping patterns into your consistency-based vision of music, I actually approve - seeking that sort of middle ground is good. But if you just want to throw away the idea entirely because it's executed (again, in your eyes) poorly, then you have no purpose here. That's a step into the right direction I believe, but seeing the counter that was received so far, I believe that it's up to him to approach one of the people who exerted criticism and then we'll look further.
Shiirn wrote:
Again, I wonder why it's always "If you want to meet in the middle, you start walking first" with you. Isn't the first step already done though? If my try to approach you doesn't work, how else would you like me to approach it? Ultimatively, no one of us is obliged to agree with anything, but this effectively will lead to the fact that I won't support this map as well as might hold it back further because from what I've seen so far, nothing has changed so that it'd fit the guidelines and rules we have. But we should wait until Mun posts more, in this case.
I happily accept criticism and suggestions that will improve upon my vision of the map. Suggestions and criticism that I find irrelevant or actively detrimental after considering it (If I had not already considered it before, i'd say at an offhand, 30-40% of suggestions are something I've already considered and decided not to do) will be turned down. Then please act accordingly? "Happily accepting criticism" and insulting people in the manner you do it is pretty contradicting, isn't it?
You leave me no choice in how to interact with you. You keep argumenting with stuff like "I feel that it's fine." Well, how does that give me a proper ground for argumentations as well? Other people might disagree with you, but then don't expect them to cooperate.
And somehow it still ends up being my fault because I'm the one refusing to capitulate. No one has spoken of it being someones fault, but all paragraphs somehow lead together to the fact that you can't expect that there will be no resistance after replies like there are here. Simply labeling everything off and then saying "I'll call BN X and Y back" while literally nothing has been sorted out is not really supporting your point of happily accepting criticism either.