sakuraburst - forest of the spirits

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AyanokoRin
I'm actually considering subbing to this thread for the drama

as much as I like that kind of thing, can't y'all just get along ?
Irreversible

Shiirn wrote:

Again, I wonder why it's always "If you want to meet in the middle, you start walking first" with you. Isn't the first step already done though? If my try to approach you doesn't work, how else would you like me to approach it? Ultimatively, no one of us is obliged to agree with anything, but this effectively will lead to the fact that I won't support this map as well as might hold it back further because from what I've seen so far, nothing has changed so that it'd fit the guidelines and rules we have. But we should wait until Mun posts more, in this case.

I happily accept criticism and suggestions that will improve upon my vision of the map. Suggestions and criticism that I find irrelevant or actively detrimental after considering it (If I had not already considered it before, i'd say at an offhand, 30-40% of suggestions are something I've already considered and decided not to do) will be turned down. Then please act accordingly? "Happily accepting criticism" and insulting people in the manner you do it is pretty contradicting, isn't it?

You leave me no choice in how to interact with you. You keep argumenting with stuff like "I feel that it's fine." Well, how does that give me a proper ground for argumentations as well? Other people might disagree with you, but then don't expect them to cooperate.

And somehow it still ends up being my fault because I'm the one refusing to capitulate. No one has spoken of it being someones fault, but all paragraphs somehow lead together to the fact that you can't expect that there will be no resistance after replies like there are here. Simply labeling everything off and then saying "I'll call BN X and Y back" while literally nothing has been sorted out is not really supporting your point of happily accepting criticism either.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
I insult kurai because he's made an embarrassment out of himself and the titles he has, not because I disagree with his suggestions (that's just a symptom). Just like I don't insult you because you haven't made an embarrassment out of yourself or the titles you have. Just kind of treat this shit awkwardly.

If you want to work with Mun, go ahead. Kurai's not likely to be any use at all to the difficulty, but you absolutely would. That's between you and Mun. Just don't neuter the concept :thinking:

Otherwise, waiting on jako and will update the rest when that's figured out.
Mun

Voli wrote:

Some of my concerns with the hard..

  1. 01:22:560 (1,2) - I don't think this is a good way to introduce a hard, or well, any map with. You instantly go into a super harsh angle with a repeat which doesn't play well and isn't suitable for a hard.
"Doesn't play well" isn't a valid criticism. I struggle to find where any of you are getting your ideas of "suitable for a hard" from. Does it mean I need 0 overlaps, and a highly generic distance-snapped map with note density hardly above Normal difficulty, and no intentional gameplay mechanics?

  1. 01:25:302 (2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - A lot of these patterns, aside from the issues mentioned earlier, simply bear too little resemblance to the music. A few examples:
  2. You sacrficied correct spacing emphasis for an overlap in some places like here 01:25:141 (1,2) -, 01:46:592 (4,5) - etc. Trying to make this map work with spacing emphasis would leave it laughably unstructured. Implying my map is worse at following the song due to its lack of a concept it is not intended to follow is inaccurate.
  3. While I agree with 01:25:786 (1,2) - being 2 clickable notes and therefore differentiated from the rest of these (slider) patterns, I don't see any reason 01:26:431 (1,2) - are given the exact same treatment. Moreover, here 01:27:399 (5) - you forced symmetry by adding another slider, while this should in fact be 2 notes again just like 01:25:786 (1,2) - , if we listen to the music. "If we listen to the music." I can't believe I'm the one who gets called out for being passive-aggressive when people say stuff like this. The same occurs in patterns like 01:35:463 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - , where the movement and object placement seems very forced into a certain gimmick that doesn't make much sense with how the music is composed. Fair enough, I'll change some of these. As for some of them - notice that in all of these overlap stacks, any reverse sliders are placed on top for a more readable and predictable map. Without entirely breaking the pattern and aesthetic, I can find no way to differentiate how some of these are played. Of course, if you want to do what mods are usually supposed to do and provide suggestions instead of just saying "this doesn't make sense," be my guest. As it stands, I have found no way to 'improve' some of them.
  4. 01:40:625 (1) - what happened to the sharp direction change you managed in other places like 01:38:044 (1) - ? Suddenly it's just very weak and not distinguishable? 01:45:786 (1) - 01:48:367 (1,2) - same same
  5. 01:43:367 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5) - So here you decided to just drop the overlaps/back and forth movements completely? In my opinion, this is where the map gets much better, but it also shows that the gimmick is used very inconsistently and doesn't make sense in the bigger picture. If you were to keep this gimmick in the first part of the map, then I'd expect to see it returning in some way later on as well. As of now, instead of it looking like a thoughtful gimmick, it looks more like you're forcing unnecessarily hard read/play patterns on the calmest parts of the song. "If we listen to the song," a new layer is added. Though I may have exaggerated the difference made by the song's evolution, the change here does not make my map "inconsistent" or "not make sense." What is this, Confirmation Bias: The Mod?
  1. A lot of repeats are also covered for a large portion which is part of the argument against the playability for a hard. The time the player has to notice some of these is very short, either because it's immediately covered by another object in the exact same direction, or it appears under an already existing objects. Examples of these include 01:25:302 (2,3) - , 01:51:592 (5,1) - 01:35:625 (2,5) - I fixed that buzz slider slip-up, but I'm honestly surprised that you paid so much attention to the reverse sliders and yet didn't notice that every single slider with a reverse arrow is on top of its stack.
  2. Aside from all that, my own subjective (because god forbid we talk about this subject in 2017) opinion is that the quality of the aesthetics in the first part of the map is suffering as well. You used almost exclusively slightly curved sliders that alter a little bit in their shape every pattern. makes the map look bland and unorganized. Your overlaps are sometimes inconsistent too, such as here 01:38:205 (2) - I like your visuals a lot better in the kiai though. what are you talking about lol fixed inconsistent overlap, though



I hope you can consider some of these things.
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251,359,196754,2,0,B|212:354|212:354|162:359,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
106,292,197076,2,0,B|67:297|67:297|17:292,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
196,266,197399,6,0,B|187:207|187:207|201:136,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
211,136,197721,1,0,0:0:0:0:
133,82,197883,1,2,0:0:0:0:
305,108,198044,2,0,B|345:113|345:113|385:108,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|1:0,0:0:0:0:
285,19,198367,2,0,B|245:14|245:14|205:19,1,77.999997619629,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
283,125,198689,6,0,B|344:132|344:132|406:123,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
414,115,199012,1,0,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199173,1,2,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199254,1,0,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199334,2,0,B|476:228|476:228|470:288,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
387,307,199657,2,0,B|381:346|381:346|387:406,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
499,300,199979,70,0,B|512:223|512:223|483:139,1,155.999995239258,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
409,202,200463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
409,202,200544,1,0,1:0:0:0:
409,202,200625,2,0,B|351:207|351:207|285:197,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
274,201,200947,2,0,B|268:240|268:240|275:311,1,77.999997619629,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
353,130,201270,6,0,B|358:72|358:72|348:6,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,0,201592,1,0,0:0:0:0:
262,46,201754,1,2,0:0:0:0:
172,20,201915,2,0,B|132:26|132:26|90:20,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
194,110,202238,2,0,B|204:169|204:169|189:231,1,116.999996429443,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
182,243,202560,6,0,B|177:283|177:283|181:337,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
313,330,202883,2,0,B|318:290|318:290|314:236,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
254,126,203205,1,8,1:2:0:0:
344,150,203367,1,0,1:0:0:0:
250,147,203528,2,0,B|211:147|211:147|152:134,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
85,106,203850,70,0,B|88:170|88:170|68:237,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
65,238,204173,2,0,B|111:232|111:232|166:243,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
235,292,204496,2,0,B|291:306|291:306|371:298,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
373,293,204818,2,0,B|369:339|369:339|380:384,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
455,222,205141,5,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205786,2,0,P|442:170|291:258,1,318.499990280152,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Updated hard and easy
Topic Starter
Shiirn
updated storyboard, check if it fits ur standards
Zetera
Okay, thanks to mister Starcaller over there, I feel compelled to moderate this thread a little harshlier.

Make sure you keep it appropriate guys, alright? :D
Irreversible
Talking with Jako currently to furtherly improve the SB.
SB is fine now!

It'd be cool if you could credit the storyboarder properly by adding him to the tags as well (as it's normally handled like this).
Topic Starter
Shiirn
I forgot, honestly. I was going to add him after it was actually complete (Because for a few months it was up in the air). I always do that but it never came up. Adding it.
Nao Tomori
ok, sb fixed. lets try again
Seijiro
I feel strange about the situation...
Above all when I see people on both sides saying "if Mun wants I'm here for further improvement" while no one actually takes action and improves it as they say. From my pov this is just... meh... That's not the spirit of modding (if you really care about the map)
I know it might be a pain, but complaining only is too easy :<

That aside tho, Mun's reasoning about Hard diffs is kinda awkward too lol. Assuming everyone hates Hard diffs for whatever reason seems a bit too generalized...
I personally love making them and while I do agree the restriction brought from old mapping make them boring I find that comment a bit too far from reality.
These diffs are also the most played diffs, based on some statistics Eph showed some time ago, so idk about the general hate against this diff tbh (sorry, forgot what thread that was in, no link to it)

Regardless of both sides tho, I find strange how we find ourselves fighting with each other on things that maybe we don't even play or have the right perception on.
The map has been in qualified for a (maybe short) while, so if people had complaints about the Hard they could have spoken. I refer to those who play Hard diffs, not experienced players testplaying it and assuming things based on their knowledge, nor modders.
It is a matter of facts that no one has the mentality of those old days to really say "this is inappropriate" or not for such a diff.
I had a similar problem on one of my mapsets and I asked around testplays to make sure things work well enough for the target audience. If you have doubts pick users of a certain range and make them testplay the map instead of saying "they won't be able to read this" or whatever. I find that more fair towards everyone, mappers and players.


Aaaaaanyway, while I can agree the set can be cleaner from an aesthetic point of view I find the concept consistent in the Hard, hence why I firstly qualified this. I will just bring up a couple things I didn't point out last time since idk.. they slipped from my mind

Mun dear,
- 01:31:270 (1) - the SV like that has almost no impact, if it was supposed to be like a simplification of the SV changes from the top diffs. What about this?
- 01:35:463 (1,2) - minor, but seeing they have both the same hitsound I would have stacked them. They feel kinda strange with movement between them =w=" Mostly because I see stuff like 01:38:044 (1,2) - which is identical but differently hitsounded so I am a bit "?.? why"
- 01:50:947 (1,2) - other hitsounding that makes little sense. Change hitsounds or pattern, because that way you're telling me the tail should have a click
- 03:05:141 (3,4,5) - mentioned this to Shiirn before, but we ended up in a little conflict over it so I left it there. I would rather have your opinion too about (4), since it kinda dilutes the focus of your pattern. Yes, there technically is a really soft beat on 03:05:302 - but it's in background and I find it a bit messy to add it above the more important foreground sound here
- 03:25:786 (3) - not the first one, but non-silenced tails which aren't used tilt me a bit
Cheri
Notice this beatmap for a while - As a person who can only play hard atm (my rank shows it all)- I find this a bit different but overall fun and nothing too hard at all
- Idk what the big deal with some aspect being too hard for people like me since I had no problem with this map and can easily fc it if I wanted to and looking forward to it being the next rank map for me to play :)
Irreversible

MrSergio wrote:

I feel strange about the situation...
Above all when I see people on both sides saying "if Mun wants I'm here for further improvement" while no one actually takes action and improves it as they say. From my pov this is just... meh... That's not the spirit of modding (if you really care about the map)
I know it might be a pain, but complaining only is too easy :<
Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
Topic Starter
Shiirn

MrSergio wrote:

I had a similar problem on one of my mapsets and I asked around testplays to make sure things work well enough for the target audience. If you have doubts pick users of a certain range and make them testplay the map instead of saying "they won't be able to read this" or whatever. I find that more fair towards everyone, mappers and players.
I guess you want Mun to go and screenshot multi lobbies asking them to play his difficulty because apparently having actual Hard difficulty players come in and compliment the map as something they enjoyed isn't evidence for you? But people outside of the difficulty level can claim it isn't suitable? What kind of messed-up, backwards system of thinking is that?

MrSergio wrote:

the set can be cleaner from an aesthetic point of view
Missing the point. Just because there isn't geometric pretty angled structured patterns doesn't mean that there isn't an inherent purpose or intent to the map.

Irreversible wrote:

Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do.

Nobody else talked about shit in regards to the map's un-readiness-to-be-ranked.


So politely, fuck this.

If actively going out and trying to make sure things are at least "whatever, fine" (Because none of you really care about the map, you just don't want a precedent to be set) is being "just ignore the whole circumstances", then screw ranking this. Go ahead and lock it.
Irreversible

Shiirn wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.

So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do. My apologies then for blaming you then, but things are not fine in its current state yet. One thing that might be able to help you is to actually start unblocking me so you can actually talk to me as well when there is something like this ongoing. I have talked to Voli and I honestly couldn't conclude from the conversation that he stated something like it's being fine and ready to receive a rebub as well yet, so where are you getting your information from anyways?

So politely, fuck this.

If actively going out and trying to make sure things are at least "whatever, fine" (Because none of you really care about the map, you just don't want a precedent to be set) is being "just ignore the whole circumstances", then screw ranking this. Go ahead and lock it. If I wouldn't care about the map, I wouldn't have talked to Mun and tried to help optimizing it, now you're the one laying words into my mouth and actions zz
Let's try to focus on the map though, because talking about attitude ultimatively won't help this mapset,..
from my point of view I'd be delighted if Mun could speak up about an optimization of his diff if he wants to keep his concept up, or otherwise you might as well just add another diff to get rid off the spread issues
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Why the hell would I unblock you when every moment we've ever talked off-forum has been you vaguely or not-so-vaguely mocking me nonstop? Blame your own behavior towards me for forcing me to speak to you either on the forums or via a third party.
Irreversible

Shiirn wrote:

Why the hell would I unblock you when every moment we've ever talked off-forum has been you vaguely or not-so-vaguely mocking me nonstop? Blame your own behavior towards me for forcing me to speak to you either on the forums or via a third party.
No need to play the innocent lamb now. I don't have a disadvantage from talking to you through third party, so you can blame yourself for the actions that were needed to be taken - it was solely an offer so you might be able to get your map back to ranked with more ease, but if you decide against that and risk more emotional outbursts then we can stick to that.
Nao Tomori
Anyway should we just get a bunch of results from 200ks? I'm sure you understand that since all of this discussion was evidently done in private i couldn't see if stuff was happening. I just asked shiirn if issues were resolved with you and kurai (probably not the best idea, admittedly) and he said yes. If they're not, please explain a bit more on what you'd like to see changed / fixed and preferably not just"remove all overlaps." If it's a consistency issue, I'm sure i can work on it with mun. However, i need to know the issue first and as of know it seems to be that overlaps were used at all which i don't think should be a reason to stop the map from being ranked.
Seijiro
I implied that having a bunch of testplays on the current version might make the all fighting over this stuff end once and for all.
Also, I wasn't attacking you about aesthetics, I was just stating that it is not as clean as it could be, not that I won't requal, geez... why do you take it like that...

Anyway, things seem to have moved in some direction or another so for the time being I don't really have to do much here apparently.
I honestly am not a fan of all the "nice words" you use, Shiirn, so maybe let's at least avoid that. It is surely not a good example for anyone
Topic Starter
Shiirn
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