I'm actually considering subbing to this thread for the drama
as much as I like that kind of thing, can't y'all just get along ?
as much as I like that kind of thing, can't y'all just get along ?
Shiirn wrote:
Again, I wonder why it's always "If you want to meet in the middle, you start walking first" with you. Isn't the first step already done though? If my try to approach you doesn't work, how else would you like me to approach it? Ultimatively, no one of us is obliged to agree with anything, but this effectively will lead to the fact that I won't support this map as well as might hold it back further because from what I've seen so far, nothing has changed so that it'd fit the guidelines and rules we have. But we should wait until Mun posts more, in this case.
I happily accept criticism and suggestions that will improve upon my vision of the map. Suggestions and criticism that I find irrelevant or actively detrimental after considering it (If I had not already considered it before, i'd say at an offhand, 30-40% of suggestions are something I've already considered and decided not to do) will be turned down. Then please act accordingly? "Happily accepting criticism" and insulting people in the manner you do it is pretty contradicting, isn't it?
You leave me no choice in how to interact with you. You keep argumenting with stuff like "I feel that it's fine." Well, how does that give me a proper ground for argumentations as well? Other people might disagree with you, but then don't expect them to cooperate.
And somehow it still ends up being my fault because I'm the one refusing to capitulate. No one has spoken of it being someones fault, but all paragraphs somehow lead together to the fact that you can't expect that there will be no resistance after replies like there are here. Simply labeling everything off and then saying "I'll call BN X and Y back" while literally nothing has been sorted out is not really supporting your point of happily accepting criticism either.
Voli wrote:
Some of my concerns with the hard..
"Doesn't play well" isn't a valid criticism. I struggle to find where any of you are getting your ideas of "suitable for a hard" from. Does it mean I need 0 overlaps, and a highly generic distance-snapped map with note density hardly above Normal difficulty, and no intentional gameplay mechanics?
- 01:22:560 (1,2) - I don't think this is a good way to introduce a hard, or well, any map with. You instantly go into a super harsh angle with a repeat which doesn't play well and isn't suitable for a hard.
- 01:25:302 (2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - A lot of these patterns, aside from the issues mentioned earlier, simply bear too little resemblance to the music. A few examples:
- You sacrficied correct spacing emphasis for an overlap in some places like here 01:25:141 (1,2) -, 01:46:592 (4,5) - etc. Trying to make this map work with spacing emphasis would leave it laughably unstructured. Implying my map is worse at following the song due to its lack of a concept it is not intended to follow is inaccurate.
- While I agree with 01:25:786 (1,2) - being 2 clickable notes and therefore differentiated from the rest of these (slider) patterns, I don't see any reason 01:26:431 (1,2) - are given the exact same treatment. Moreover, here 01:27:399 (5) - you forced symmetry by adding another slider, while this should in fact be 2 notes again just like 01:25:786 (1,2) - , if we listen to the music. "If we listen to the music." I can't believe I'm the one who gets called out for being passive-aggressive when people say stuff like this. The same occurs in patterns like 01:35:463 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - , where the movement and object placement seems very forced into a certain gimmick that doesn't make much sense with how the music is composed. Fair enough, I'll change some of these. As for some of them - notice that in all of these overlap stacks, any reverse sliders are placed on top for a more readable and predictable map. Without entirely breaking the pattern and aesthetic, I can find no way to differentiate how some of these are played. Of course, if you want to do what mods are usually supposed to do and provide suggestions instead of just saying "this doesn't make sense," be my guest. As it stands, I have found no way to 'improve' some of them.
- 01:40:625 (1) - what happened to the sharp direction change you managed in other places like 01:38:044 (1) - ? Suddenly it's just very weak and not distinguishable? 01:45:786 (1) - 01:48:367 (1,2) - same same
- 01:43:367 (2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5) - So here you decided to just drop the overlaps/back and forth movements completely? In my opinion, this is where the map gets much better, but it also shows that the gimmick is used very inconsistently and doesn't make sense in the bigger picture. If you were to keep this gimmick in the first part of the map, then I'd expect to see it returning in some way later on as well. As of now, instead of it looking like a thoughtful gimmick, it looks more like you're forcing unnecessarily hard read/play patterns on the calmest parts of the song. "If we listen to the song," a new layer is added. Though I may have exaggerated the difference made by the song's evolution, the change here does not make my map "inconsistent" or "not make sense." What is this, Confirmation Bias: The Mod?
- A lot of repeats are also covered for a large portion which is part of the argument against the playability for a hard. The time the player has to notice some of these is very short, either because it's immediately covered by another object in the exact same direction, or it appears under an already existing objects. Examples of these include 01:25:302 (2,3) - , 01:51:592 (5,1) - 01:35:625 (2,5) - I fixed that buzz slider slip-up, but I'm honestly surprised that you paid so much attention to the reverse sliders and yet didn't notice that every single slider with a reverse arrow is on top of its stack.
- Aside from all that, my own subjective (because god forbid we talk about this subject in 2017) opinion is that the quality of the aesthetics in the first part of the map is suffering as well. You used almost exclusively slightly curved sliders that alter a little bit in their shape every pattern. makes the map look bland and unorganized. Your overlaps are sometimes inconsistent too, such as here 01:38:205 (2) - I like your visuals a lot better in the kiai though. what are you talking about lol fixed inconsistent overlap, though
I hope you can consider some of these things.
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Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.MrSergio wrote:
I feel strange about the situation...
Above all when I see people on both sides saying "if Mun wants I'm here for further improvement" while no one actually takes action and improves it as they say. From my pov this is just... meh... That's not the spirit of modding (if you really care about the map)
I know it might be a pain, but complaining only is too easy :<
I guess you want Mun to go and screenshot multi lobbies asking them to play his difficulty because apparently having actual Hard difficulty players come in and compliment the map as something they enjoyed isn't evidence for you? But people outside of the difficulty level can claim it isn't suitable? What kind of messed-up, backwards system of thinking is that?MrSergio wrote:
I had a similar problem on one of my mapsets and I asked around testplays to make sure things work well enough for the target audience. If you have doubts pick users of a certain range and make them testplay the map instead of saying "they won't be able to read this" or whatever. I find that more fair towards everyone, mappers and players.
Missing the point. Just because there isn't geometric pretty angled structured patterns doesn't mean that there isn't an inherent purpose or intent to the map.MrSergio wrote:
the set can be cleaner from an aesthetic point of view
I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do.Irreversible wrote:
Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.
So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
Let's try to focus on the map though, because talking about attitude ultimatively won't help this mapset,..Shiirn wrote:
I was told by my SBer and GDers that things were fine. Don't paint me with a "fuck you I'm Shiirn" brush when I explicitly asked people to check in with you specifically as the DQer, and spoke with Kurai myself. I also talked with Voli myself. If you want to actively strawman my actions and demonize me, you can do so off-forum like you always fucking do. My apologies then for blaming you then, but things are not fine in its current state yet. One thing that might be able to help you is to actually start unblocking me so you can actually talk to me as well when there is something like this ongoing. I have talked to Voli and I honestly couldn't conclude from the conversation that he stated something like it's being fine and ready to receive a rebub as well yet, so where are you getting your information from anyways?Irreversible wrote:
Well Sergio, that really doesn't surprise me to hear. You haven't talked to any of the involved criticisers afaik, hence why you obviously find the whole situation weird. I have talked to Mun in discord (I can show the private log privately, but I won't post it here publically for obvious reasons), but haven't got an answer after that - so the discussion was pretty broken. It honestly does not surprise me though that you, Shiirn, just ignore the whole circumstances and decide to let it push forward by Naotoshi, who doesn't seem to care too much in general.
So as long as there hasn't been any further discussion or the problem is resolved, I'll just simply pop the bubble again, because this really is not the way to go.
So politely, fuck this.
If actively going out and trying to make sure things are at least "whatever, fine" (Because none of you really care about the map, you just don't want a precedent to be set) is being "just ignore the whole circumstances", then screw ranking this. Go ahead and lock it. If I wouldn't care about the map, I wouldn't have talked to Mun and tried to help optimizing it, now you're the one laying words into my mouth and actions zz
No need to play the innocent lamb now. I don't have a disadvantage from talking to you through third party, so you can blame yourself for the actions that were needed to be taken - it was solely an offer so you might be able to get your map back to ranked with more ease, but if you decide against that and risk more emotional outbursts then we can stick to that.Shiirn wrote:
Why the hell would I unblock you when every moment we've ever talked off-forum has been you vaguely or not-so-vaguely mocking me nonstop? Blame your own behavior towards me for forcing me to speak to you either on the forums or via a third party.
MrSergio wrote:
Mun dear,
- 01:31:270 (1) - the SV like that has almost no impact, if it was supposed to be like a simplification of the SV changes from the top diffs. What about this? Fair enough.
- 01:35:463 (1,2) - minor, but seeing they have both the same hitsound I would have stacked them. They feel kinda strange with movement between them =w=" Mostly because I see stuff like 01:38:044 (1,2) - which is identical but differently hitsounded so I am a bit "?.? why" Considering the contentious stacks that span the entirety of this section, adding something visually similar to those would visually represent it too similarly to an extremely different pattern, which could result in an unfair reading challenge for the player.
- 01:50:947 (1,2) - other hitsounding that makes little sense. Change hitsounds or pattern, because that way you're telling me the tail should have a click The drums haven't been the focal point of the rhythm anywhere in this map.
- 03:05:141 (3,4,5) - mentioned this to Shiirn before, but we ended up in a little conflict over it so I left it there. I would rather have your opinion too about (4), since it kinda dilutes the focus of your pattern. Yes, there technically is a really soft beat on 03:05:302 - but it's in background and I find it a bit messy to add it above the more important foreground sound here This is another example of the atmosphere prevailing over the individual sounds.
This is the climax of the 2nd quarter of the kiai, before a new layer is added to the song. This pattern is meant to put the maximum reasonable level of aim stress on the player, and does so quite nicely.
- 03:25:786 (3) - not the first one, but non-silenced tails which aren't used tilt me a bitmade like the KGB and silenced it
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Okorin wrote:
you write too much i can't digest your rambles if i dont care to read this much text mun
01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - repeat arrow is hidden for a bit long isnt it shiirn never added the change i applied here wtf
02:28:528 (2,4,5) - i think going along with your custom stack concept i think these should be stacked like 02:38:528 (5,1,2,3) - sort of fixed?
i just changed the whole rhythm instead of stacking on top of a repeat lol
02:54:979 (4,1) - this would have more of an impact if it was stacked because it would force people to actually listen to the song while playing instead of distancesnapping it I'd definitely accept this change if I didn't want the player to have to move between those 2 objects.
03:04:818 (2,3) - huge 03:05:141 (3,4) - huge 03:05:302 (4,5) - huge, i think the sound in the middle (namely 3-4) should be small because impacts are on 3 and 5 but it doesnt matter too much other people have brought this up, might as well change
03:13:205 (5,1) - i keep dropping the sliderend of this because itseems to use sliderleniency a bit much fixed
kiai is a bit all over the place as far as highlighting sounds goes, 02:49:012 (1) - 03:02:883 (5,1) - get focus in the first more calm half of the chorus similarly to the 2nd half in the first one elaborate, idk what you are trying to say
while in the 2nd half 03:09:334 (5,1) - doesnt get focus like all the others do througha jump to it oh, I see. Fixed.
02:38:689 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3) - i find it weird to insist on mapping the backing instrument so much if you just focus drums in the latter part of the pattern anyways edited a bit
unrelated
02:01:270 (1,2,3) - volume to like 20% or 15 at least sounds better to me and actually sounds audible disagree, i prefer the 40-5 to silence sliderends
osu file format v14
[General]
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AudioLeadIn: 0
PreviewTime: 82238
Countdown: 0
SampleSet: Soft
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[Metadata]
Title:forest of the spirits
TitleUnicode:forest of the spirits
Artist:sakuraburst
ArtistUnicode:sakuraburst
Creator:Shiirn
Version:mun's hard
Source:
Tags:blood orange mikasaserket net0 mir mun mecha dubstep dance Jakomo73 electronic ambient glitch noise pretty soundfont York
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Okorin wrote:
elaboration:
02:45:141 - to 03:05:463 - you dont use slider leniency usually when doing things except for like two random places where you do and 2nd half has mostly everything except for like one thing use sliderleniency making both of these look out of place I removed all cases of slider leniency that I noticed in the first quarter of the kiai, other than that the only reason it changes is because the entirety of the kiai evolves over time
like this is a thing you can test and either party can do it to support or disprove their claims
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197,29,166109,2,0,P|148:32|107:27,1,77.999997619629,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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294,299,172399,1,0,1:2:0:0:
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414,291,175463,6,0,B|418:233|418:233|413:165,1,116.999996429443,4|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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348,352,189334,2,0,L|271:351,1,77.999997619629
417,288,189657,6,0,B|450:219|450:219|431:121,1,155.999995239258,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
401,52,190141,1,0,1:0:0:0:
401,52,190221,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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269,56,190625,2,0,L|267:148,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
253,226,190947,6,0,B|261:288|261:288|242:353,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
227,341,191270,1,0,0:0:0:0:
146,294,191431,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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215,99,192560,1,0,0:0:0:0:
284,36,192721,1,2,0:0:0:0:
367,79,192883,2,0,L|364:161,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|1:2,0:0:0:0:
217,176,193205,2,0,L|214:94,1,77.999997619629
357,87,193528,6,0,B|418:89|418:89|476:106,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
487,128,193850,1,0,0:0:0:0:
424,198,194012,1,2,0:0:0:0:
467,280,194173,2,0,L|470:362,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
424,198,194496,2,0,B|368:188|368:188|279:201,1,116.999996429443,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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246,141,195463,1,8,1:0:0:0:
424,198,195625,1,0,1:0:0:0:
424,198,196109,70,0,B|433:258|433:258|425:322,1,116.999996429443,4|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
421,331,196431,1,0,0:0:0:0:
330,308,196592,1,2,0:0:0:0:
251,359,196754,2,0,B|212:354|212:354|162:359,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
28,293,197076,2,0,B|67:297|67:297|106:292,1,77.999997619629
196,266,197399,6,0,B|187:207|187:207|201:136,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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133,82,197883,1,2,0:0:0:0:
305,108,198044,2,0,B|345:113|345:113|382:108,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|1:0,0:0:0:0:
285,19,198367,2,0,B|245:14|245:14|205:19,1,77.999997619629,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
283,125,198689,6,0,B|344:132|344:132|406:123,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
414,115,199012,1,0,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199173,1,2,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199254,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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384,384,199657,2,0,B|381:346|381:346|387:307,1,77.999997619629
499,300,199979,70,0,B|512:223|512:223|483:139,1,155.999995239258,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
409,202,200463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
409,202,200544,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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353,130,201270,6,0,B|358:72|358:72|348:6,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,0,201592,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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182,243,202560,6,0,B|177:283|177:283|181:337,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
313,330,202883,2,0,B|318:290|318:290|314:236,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
254,126,203205,1,8,1:2:0:0:
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373,293,204818,2,0,B|369:339|369:339|380:384,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
455,222,205141,5,0,1:0:0:0:
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294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:
Kurai wrote:
I guess I'll just throw a short mod I had saved in my drafts, hope this helps.
[net0's easy][mun's hard]
- 02:43:850 (1,1) - Not really a good idea to stack notes in Easy difficulties (and particularly when they are more than 1/1 apart). Player at this level rely a lot on spacing, seeing those two sliders being stacked could make them "panic" and click the 2nd slider earlier than they should. Actually, I am not really against introducing stacks in Easy difficulties they are common patterns and beginners have to learn how to play them at some point, but here it would only feel awkward for them and would just makes it confusing in my opinion. Quit treating new players like they're brain-damaged monkeys.
- 02:49:496 (5) - Maybe you should map this rhythm the same way you did at 02:59:334 (4,5) - . That's an easier rhythm to follow. (it goes for 03:10:141 (4) - as well). Quit treating new players like they're brain-damaged monkeys.
- 02:57:399 (5) - Why did you make it 1/2 here but not at 02:47:076 (5) - ? (the same goes for 03:02:560 (5) - and 03:15:463 (5) - then). Fixed inconsistencies. They're all circles now. Be happy. also, 03:15:463 (5) - is not even the same relevance sound, 03:18:044 (5) - is
- 03:25:786 (7) - a 1/1 slider would work better here in my opinion as you don't really have any audible sound at 03:25:947 - . Doesn't matter, the reversal of movement is a good representation of the music.
[mir's insane]
- 01:40:625 (1) - I really feel like this circle should be a slider (potentially going in the same direction as 01:39:979 (3) - and 01:39:334 (1) - ) because as it is now, it feels like you are ignoring the sound (3) and (4) were nicely accentuating which kind of feels anticlimactic. It's my style
- 01:46:754 (5) - I think you should change this slider as the movement it creates is pretty awkward and doesn't go well with the previous objects; (2) goes upward then (3,4) go on the left then right after (4) you have to go back on the right but (5) goes upward again (and a bit on the left). I find it rather uncomfortable to play. It's my style
- 01:55:141 (2) - I would ctrl+g this slider (and adjust its position), in my opinion it would make the movement of this slider feel more natural. It's my style
- 03:19:173 (3,4,5) - Since you have a circle 1/4 after a slider just right before, it makes it a bit complicated to apprehend this triple (even though it is perfectly justified rhythmically). Two solutions to fix this issue 1. you could remove the 1/4 and 2. make 03:18:689 (1) - a full 1/1 slider just like 03:08:367 (1) - (I like this solution the best as it would make the patterns more consistent with one another). Change 02:58:044 (1) - to be consistent with the second iteration. Thanks!
- 01:40:625 (1) - As I said in Hard: "I really feel like this circle should be a slider [...] because as it is now, it feels like you are ignoring the sound 01:38:689 (4,1,4) - were nicely accentuating which kind of feels anticlimactic.". Though, since it is stacked here, it doesn't feel as awkward as in Hard. It's my style
- 01:42:560 (3) - I would end it on the red tick. I believe the sound on 01:42:721 - deserves to be mapped, and actually, it would put more emphasis on the following stream. It's my style
- 01:51:915 - Why didn't you map this beat? :0 It feels like something is missing (and therefore makes 01:52:076 (6) - more complicated to apprehend). It's my style
- 02:59:979 (5) - Why do you have a slowdown for 02:49:657 (1) - , 03:10:302 (1) - and 03:20:625 (1) - ) but not here? the curve is a slowdown in itself as the player doesn't move the cursor, and this pattern variant works this way. (i don't really know, but it works fine either way to me)
Thanks for the mod! No changes have been made though.Kisses wrote:
hard
Because you've done a lot to try emphasise all the niche sounds in the intro with different slider shapes, structure etc. I'm kind of puzzled as to why you didn't try to do anything with these sounds 01:32:560 and 01:32:721 it is due to rhythm constraints, 1/2 sliders can't demonstrate how the current one emphasises the clap sound and the only option I have left for a hard diff for 01:32:721 is a circle
02:24:496 (1) - Maybe it's just me but this section doesn't feel intuitive at all. It felt that way in editor and played awkward to me in testplay I think you need to elaborate on this otherwise I couldn't pinpoint the issue. I can play it just fine even on DT but it might be that I've already subconsciously memorised the rhythm
02:59:657 (1,2,3) - if you're gonna stack 2 and 3 then imho it would go down better to not stack 1 and 2 . This would go for a lot of other patterns too varying 1/4 spacing concept even for sliderend -> circle isn't fitting in this map where I've already prioritised having different spacing concepts for 1/2
03:25:786 (3) - spacing this big feels like it should be omitted in hard diffs it's honestly not that bad considering how big circle -> slider jumps in this map. I'll take it into consideration if the issue gets brought up again.
w ~