[invalid] Fixing Hard Rock and Doubletime for Catch the Beat

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +4
Topic Starter
Shiirn
As almost any experienced catch the beat player knows, almost all of the highest ranks and scores on most maps are purely Hidden. Why? Well, for one, Flashlight is just as hard on ctb as any other mode and requires quite a lot of memorization. But for another -

Hard Rock and Doubletime are broken.

How so? Let us start with HR.

HR in standard decreases the circle size by one, and multiplies all of the other difficulty settings by 1.4, rounding down and capping out at 10.
In catch the beat, it does the same - however. While it was very smart and logical to switch the multipliers for DT and HR (DT gives x.06 and HR gives x0.12), hard rock's increase in sheer difficulty is huge compared to what it does on standard - Approach rate and Health Drain are much, much more apparent when playing catch the beat as the way you regain HP is different due to the fact that sliders are counted as two notes combined with spinners giving very little hp at all. Approach rate as well, any half-serious ctb player will tell how how huge the difference in speed there is between AR8 and AR9. As of right now, when you HR an 8-AR map, the AR becomes 10 - the same as Hard Rocking a 9-AR map.
The health drain also is increased a very large amount, and on maps with long spinners or hold sliders or slow sections, will outright be impossible to pass.

Proposed fixes:
A) Have Hard Rock increase AR by 1, decrease circle size by 1, and increase HP drain by 1 or 2 rather than multiply by 1.4
B) Have Hard Rock decrease circle size by 1, leave HP drain, and not touch AR at all - Rather silly?
C) Decrease circle size by 1, increase AR by 1, leave HP drain alone - as if you're using a mod on a map, you're most likely going to try to FC anyway, and you shouldn't be failing due to HP drain while you're FCing.

(On an unrelated note, Hard Rock also causes perfectly stacked notes to move a random number of pixels between 1 and 15 to the left or right in gameplay. Not really worth mentioning, but it's notable and is rather neat)


Following me so far? No? Oh well.


Let's move on to Doubletime.

On standard, Doubletime multiplies the rate the playing field is displayed as well as the music by 150% - essentially making everything 50% faster and harder (AR is technically increase 50%, OD is technically increased due to a smaller window of 300) and sports a score multiplier of x.12. Sounds well and fair.

On CTB, Doubletime does largely the same - the fruits drop 50% faster, and ryuuta himself is 50% faster. However, since the difficulty of clicking things is removed for ctb, the score multiplier is accordingly demoted to x.06. That's all and good.

However.

What non-seasoned catch the beat players do not realize, is that halftime and doubletime have a very special bit of coding in them. They decrease or increase the margin of error within hyperfruit coding.

Let's explain what a margin of error is. A hyperfruit is created when it is physically impossible for ryuuta to go from fruit A to fruit B under his maximum speed (dashing). What this "margin of error" does is that it takes the "absolute maximum distance ryuuta can travel" and decreases the amount by a certain percentage to allow for human error. For example, if the absolute maximum speed of ryuuta is 1000 arbirtrary units of distance/time, a margin of error of 10% would spawn a hyperfruit at 900 units of distance.

I have estimated the default margin of error for hyperfruits to be, or very close to, 10%. Halftime increases this margin of error to a whopping 30%.

Doubletime decreases this margin of error to -10%. Negative.

This means that with the doubletime mod, notes that are barely hyperfruits in default play will have their hyperfruit status revoked in doubletime - And even with edge catching, they will be impossible to catch.


Proposed fix:
A) Fix hyperfruit coding so that outright impossible-with-doubletime jumps will spawn hyperfruits as normal
B) Remove the "margin of error" decrease that DT causes - meaning no change to the number of hyperfruits or their position, just needing 50% faster reflexes (as doubletime should require)


I for one am kind of bored of seeing HD scores topping 90% of maps worth mentioning and HR and DT only being used on lower difficulties.

I'm sure that people will misunderstand that I am advocating making HR or DT easier (I'm not).

Also, if this belongs in help and support (Would it?) move accordingly.
Hika
Agreed & support.
Sakura
Im not a CTB player but if this is as broken as you said, then it does need a fix.
Omega
Oh yes, I don't like CtB. That has many reasons. This is one.
Kitsunemimi

Shiirn wrote:

What non-seasoned catch the beat players do not realize, is that halftime and doubletime have a very special bit of coding in them. They decrease or increase the margin of error within hyperfruit coding.
They don't change the margin of error, they physically make Ryuuta go a little bit faster than he should go with DT, and a little slower in HT. With DT, I've noticed that for some really difficult jumps without DT become as difficult as any other jump in the map with DT. And in HT, with Ryuuta's sluggish speed, there are some fruits that you can't walk, which you can without HT.

Even if I were wrong, I think I remember a long time ago that MM201 said something about the hyperdash code being... really complicated... or something. Still though, lots of support on this.

You may also want to see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=56606 because it also involves reworking a mod's effects (in terms of AR and circle size), so you can fine tune your suggestions.
Derekku
CtB has needed an overhaul and fixes like this for a while, and they will come in due time. Unfortunately, the fixes are just too low in priority compared to more important issues. Here's hoping for the future!
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Derekku wrote:

more important issues.
:~|
pieguyn
I agree with what you said about DT, but I think HR is fine as is. HR is indeed quite hard, but often if you put in the effort to get a HR score you'll find that it's generally a pretty safe bet when it comes to keeping a #1.
Hika

pieguy1372 wrote:

I agree with what you said about DT, but I think HR is fine as is. HR is indeed quite hard, but often if you put in the effort to get a HR score you'll find that it's generally a pretty safe bet when it comes to keeping a #1.
I mean, I guess you could consider this.

I just don't understand what the problem with DT is, HR is fine imo, just a bit crazy due to AR & fruit size decreasing dramatically. I just don't like DT because Ryuuta is just harder to use depending on the default AR on the map already if you understand what sense I'm trying to make.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
The main issue i see with HR is that it turns both AR8 (very readable and what can be called the "default" AR for a good ctb map) and AR9 (much much faster, harder to read, and requires a lot of ctb experience + map prediction) into AR10 (fruit minigun)
pieguyn
Basically in DT some jumps are impossible because the game places hyperdashes incorrectly...
Topic Starter
Shiirn

pieguy1372 wrote:

Basically in DT some jumps are impossible because the game places hyperdashes incorrectly...
That's...the point i was making.
pieguyn
I was talking to Hika, who seemed to want a clarification. I already said I agree with you about DT. :?
eldnl

Shiirn wrote:

The main issue i see with HR is that it turns both AR8 (very readable and what can be called the "default" AR for a good ctb map) and AR9 (much much faster, harder to read, and requires a lot of ctb experience + map prediction) into AR10 (fruit minigun)
Not really, with AR8 in hardrock is easy to pass, with AR9 you need to learn the map but is possible.
With AR8 in DT is easy to pass again, but with AR9 is really, really impossible, fruits fall incredibly fast, I can't read that.

HR is really fine. But in DT maybe can fix the hyperdash, it's really discouraging see that the map is impossible with doubletime.
I'm not an expert, but the hardrock is posible anyway, not with DT.
Hika

eldnl wrote:

Not really, with AR8 in hardrock is easy to pass, with AR9 you need to learn the map but is possible.
With AR8 in DT is easy to pass again, but with AR9 is really, really impossible, fruits fall incredibly fast, I can't read that.
I mean, what he's saying is, AR8 WITH HR. Not AR8 that is created by HR.

It's highly impossible to do an AR9 + HR obviously. Well at least that's what I think.
Ikillforpies

pieguy1372 wrote:

I agree with what you said about DT, but I think HR is fine as is. HR is indeed quite hard, but often if you put in the effort to get a HR score you'll find that it's generally a pretty safe bet when it comes to keeping a #1.
ziin

Hika wrote:

eldnl wrote:

Not really, with AR8 in hardrock is easy to pass, with AR9 you need to learn the map but is possible.
With AR8 in DT is easy to pass again, but with AR9 is really, really impossible, fruits fall incredibly fast, I can't read that.
I mean, what he's saying is, AR8 WITH HR. Not AR8 that is created by HR.

It's highly impossible to do an AR9 + HR obviously. Well at least that's what I think.
You guys are idiots. AR7 + HR ~= AR 8 + HR = AR 9 + HR = AR 10 (+/- HR)
Waryas
osu!Standard HR = AR*1.4
Isn't it the same for ctb?
Kitsunemimi

JesusYamato wrote:

osu!Standard HR = AR*1.4
Isn't it the same for ctb?
That's what Shiirn said from the very beginning.

Derekku wrote:

CtB has needed an overhaul and fixes like this for a while, and they will come in due time.
Been quite a long time since people started mentioning "CtB overhaul".
eldnl

ziin wrote:

Hika wrote:

[

I mean, what he's saying is, AR8 WITH HR. Not AR8 that is created by HR.

It's highly impossible to do an AR9 + HR obviously. Well at least that's what I think.
You guys are idiots. AR7 + HR ~= AR 8 + HR = AR 9 + HR = AR 10 (+/- HR)
Maybe
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