Garden wrote:

Easy

1. 00:42:942 (1) - you should add drum finish to the spinner too according to your general hitsounding patterns Fixed

Normal

1. 00:17:744 - to 00:26:215 - missing hitsounds? Actually it was intended to leave this part without hitsounding cos it's so quiet compared to the rest of the map but after adding some hitsounds it sounds way better, thanks!
2. 01:07:709 - 01:08:058 - 02:21:740 (3,4) - also missing hitsounds it seems Fixed

Hard

1. 00:17:744 - hitsounding, same as mentioned in normal, also applied to higher diffs Fixed

Collab Insane

1. 00:17:744 - a bit weird to me that you mapped this section in lower difficulties but skipped it in insane lol, anyway it's fine, you can pull the break start here btw This break has basically the same reasoning as missing hitsounds in this part, it's just to emphasise louder parts of the song,
   but since it's is ok I think we'll leave it as it is now
2. 00:31:779 (1,2,3) - I think you should fill up the 1/2 rhythm in this case, music is much more intense than 00:26:215 (1,2) - plus your visual spacing kinda indicates they are 1/2 gaps Fixed
3. 00:37:361 (1,1,2) - missing some strong hitsounds it seems Fixed

Insane

1. 00:41:895 (2,4) - add whistle to slider head like 00:40:500 (2,4) - ? Fixed
2. 01:08:058 (1) - finish Fixed

Misanthropy

1. 00:37:709 (2,4) - 00:40:500 (2,4) - 00:41:895 (2,4) - 00:48:872 (2,4) - 00:54:454 (2,4) - 01:00:035 (2,4) - slider head missing hitsounds Fixed

Quality of the set overall is ok, but imo you would need some further detail polishment in your higher difficulties (enh are pretty decent I'd say), but this can be somehow subjective.
Good luck with the set and hope my mod helps! Thank you for your mod and have a good luck as well!

sahuang wrote:

Hello

Easy
00:24:778 (2,1) - try to avoid this kind of antiflow in Easy. The reverse slider is going to a direction opposite to the next object, which makes it kinda hard to play. Here is an alternative: ctrl+G 00:24:778 (2) - and make DS 1.1x (316|292) Did according to your suggestion
01:21:370 (4) - I don't really know why you start to introduce 1/2 gaps like this. This does not seem appropriate in Easy diff. In addition, just make the slider 1/1 which ends on 01:21:718 - . There is a downbeat at this point. Fixed
01:24:160 (4) - same Fixed
01:47:183 (1,3) - better make their shapes identical like what you did previously Fixed

Normal
00:16:175 - better add a circle here because the sound is pretty strong. Fixed
00:19:181 (1) - the red anchor literally does nothing. just remove it and make a good normal slider.. Fixed
00:17:744 (1) - the gap here is empty because it's not that 00:18:103 - has no sound. Make a 1/1 slider would improve your rhythm and flow Fixed
00:19:899 (2) - use 1/1 slider to avoid 00:19:899 (2,3) - this kind of weird rhythm in Normal Fixed
00:37:361 (1) - the sudden multiple reverse slider here makes little sense, it's too abrupt and ppl won't expect it to be here. Try split it to 2 sliders or even circles Fixed
00:47:128 (1) - 00:49:919 (1) - etc. there are just too many NCs in this map. Try halve it by NC every 8 beats instead of 4...make combo longer pls Fixed
01:02:477 (1,2) - DS Fixed
also any reason 1/2 gaps are 1.0x while 1/1s are 1.1x? I used 1.0x for 1\2 and 1.1x for 1\1 to maked easier to play
01:05:268 (1,1) - make sliders more consistent..this improves your aesthetics a lot Fixed
01:20:672 (1) - 01:23:463 (1) - etc. remove NC as i told you before. reword NC on this diff Fixed
01:28:695 (3,4) - change this to a slider. 3 circles in a row in Normal is too difficult and makes the gap big. Fixed
01:37:765 (2,3) - slider Fixed
01:30:439 (1,2) - use same shape Fixed
01:38:811 (1) - personally i prefer 2 circles here. Why? because if you still use 1/2 slider, it makes no difference with 01:38:463 (5) - , but actually the latter music is much stronger. Fixed
01:43:695 (1) - etc no need to NC Fixed
02:13:019 (2,1) - why different rhythm? More consistency is needed! I will try to do something about it
02:17:031 (2) - delete for consistency Fixed
02:18:600 (3,4) - same rhythm pls Fixed
02:19:298 (1,1) - ds Fixed
02:21:740 (3,4,5) - no 3 circles in a row, change to sth else Fixed
In general you should aim to make good consistency in many parts. Also aesthetics can be improved Fixed

Hard
00:03:808 - downbeat, make it clickable Fixed
00:15:651 (3,4) - due to stack leniency the DS will be different from what you thought. Manually adjust the circle so ds is same as before
http://puu.sh/zzl1W/f8d202de3a.jpg Fixed
00:33:175 (5) - 01:17:866 (5) - NC Fixed
01:38:114 (1) - remove nc Fixed
01:55:556 (4) - nc Fixed
02:10:228 (3) - should just use same shape as 02:09:531 (1,2) - and rotate same angle Fixed
02:15:810 (3) - same Fixed
02:11:624 (3) - 02:13:019 (3) - 02:17:205 (3) - 02:18:600 (3) - etc. you simplified the rhythm too much. e.g. 02:17:467 - has a 1/4 downbeat so it should be properly mapped. you can use slider+circle or slider+double Did according to your suggestion
02:13:019 (3,4,5) - very crowded here and messy. Fixed
02:13:629 - missing beat Fixed

Collab
00:07:977 (1,2) - bad aesthetics.. Fixed
00:38:756 (2) - NC this, also the shape is not perfect Fixed
00:38:058 (1) - this prob doesn't need a NC Fixed
02:08:132 (1,2) - why overlap them??? the 1/2 gap is huge so just make a normal jump. Maybe this applies to previous patterns as well, just check it yourself. Fixed

Insane and Top diff have a lot more aesthetics+rhythm concerns so I will probably do it later...or no if I'm too busy :<

1. Your hitsounds are like super inconsistent between the difficulties, e.g. 00:30:558 - 00:30:733 - 01:04:657 - 01:07:884 - and more. Can you go through your mapset again and make EVERYTHING consistent please
2. End first kiai on same spot? You ended it at 01:38:811 - or 01:38:986 - in some diffs and 01:41:602 - in Insane and I don't know why

1. 00:10:070 (5,6,7) - Rhythm like https://puu.sh/A5K1o/d66d62f321.png would represent the violin better since uh the violin is doing constant 1/2 rhythms while the 1/1 slider you have doesn't really reflect that.
2. 00:31:605 (9,1) - Supposed to be a bigger spacing.
3. 00:34:047 (5,6,7) - Pattern should be rotated to the left cuz 00:33:523 (2,3,4) - this pattern is flowing counter-clockwise and so is 00:34:047 (5,6,7) - . Problem is you got 2 patterns that flows in the same way but you transitioned them really awkward with the angle of 00:34:047 (5) - .
4. 00:34:395 (7,1) - Bigger spacing too if possible.
5. 01:52:765 - This part needs to be more intense, the intensity in this part is higher than 01:41:602 - yet your gameplay became easier. My suggestion would be either using a denser rhythm (maybe 1/4 slider + 2 circle per combo or whatever) or buff the spacings in the entire part until 01:58:346 - .

1. 00:34:395 (7,1) - Similar spacing thingy as mentioned in top diff, this one needs to be the biggest spacing for emphasis.
2. 01:17:513 (7) - 2 Circles instead? There's a sound on 01:17:690 - too.
3. 01:30:439 (5) - NC should be here? Like top diff.
4. 01:37:416 (9,1) - Swap NC?
5. 01:53:637 (6,1) - Can you use a higher spacing like 01:56:428 (6,1) - ? Wide angle with a consistent spacing 01:53:463 (5,6,1) - just plays uncomfortable imo

1. 00:37:361 (1,2,1,2) - These are easier than Hard lol make this harder pls
2. 00:40:151 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - These too, same as above. Should be more challenging.
3. 02:01:137 (1) - Was expecting this to be circles like what you did previously 01:58:346 - 01:59:393 - for consistency, if you don't want to put the repeat slider next to 02:02:183 (1) - then you can change 02:02:183 (1) - to stuff like 01:58:346 (1,2,3,4,5) - in Insane, that would work too.
4. 02:06:995 (2,3) - Fix stack.
5. 02:12:321 (8,1) - Swap NC.
6. 02:12:321 - Could’ve mapped the piano/violin or whatever sound in the background like what higher diffs did.
7. 01:42:125 (6,7,8) - 01:44:916 (6,7,8) - 01:47:707 (6,7,8) - 01:50:497 (6,7,8) - Higher spacing please, there's no difference between this and hard diff at all.

1. 01:05:268 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - Should be something more intense than 00:48:523 (1,2,3,4) - 00:54:104 (1,2,3,4) - etc, just use circles instead.
2. 01:42:125 (1,1,1) - 01:44:917 (1,1,1) - 01:47:707 (1,1,1) - 01:50:497 (1,1,1) - I don't see why you have to NC every repeat slider, you're abusing HP drain with this lol, just remove them
3. 01:58:346 (1,1,1,1) - 02:01:137 (1,1) - Could do something like https://puu.sh/A6smm/5f2f493eca.png instead? Because this part should be harder than 01:41:602 -

1. 01:06:663 (4) - Can be circles too with same reason from Hard.
2. 01:41:602 - This part you need to use a denser rhythm, in Hard there are a lot of 1/4 rhythms here so in this diff you should focus on spamming 1/2 rhythms. Something like https://puu.sh/A6sQP/74e30edb51.png or even https://puu.sh/A6sT9/08f9cf6d9c.png would fit the diff spread much better.
3. 01:58:346 - ^ Same as above, using denser rhythms. And this should be harder than 01:41:602 - too if possible.
4. 02:08:132 (3,1) - DS?

Electoz wrote:

[General]

1. Your hitsounds are like super inconsistent between the difficulties, e.g. 00:30:558 - 00:30:733 - 01:04:657 - 01:07:884 - and more. Can you go through your mapset again and make EVERYTHING consistent please Fixed
2. End first kiai on same spot? You ended it at 01:38:811 - or 01:38:986 - in some diffs and 01:41:602 - in Insane and I don't know why Fixed

yo higher size bg are you interested https://puu.sh/A6uRV/d75861005d.jpg Yes!

[Misanthropy]

1. 00:10:070 (5,6,7) - Rhythm like https://puu.sh/A5K1o/d66d62f321.png would represent the violin better since uh the violin is doing constant 1/2 rhythms while the 1/1 slider you have doesn't really reflect that. I think that would lead to confusion since everywhere except for that place would be slider + 2 notes and there slider + 3 notes so it would look kind of the same but could potentially lead to misread
2. 00:31:605 (9,1) - Supposed to be a bigger spacing. Fixed
3. 00:34:047 (5,6,7) - Pattern should be rotated to the left cuz 00:33:523 (2,3,4) - this pattern is flowing counter-clockwise and so is 00:34:047 (5,6,7) - . Problem is you got 2 patterns that flows in the same way but you transitioned them really awkward with the angle of 00:34:047 (5) - . Fixed
4. 00:34:395 (7,1) - Bigger spacing too if possible. Fixed
5. 01:52:765 - This part needs to be more intense, the intensity in this part is higher than 01:41:602 - yet your gameplay became easier. My suggestion would be either using a denser rhythm (maybe 1/4 slider + 2 circle per combo or whatever) or buff the spacings in the entire part until 01:58:346 - . Fixed

[Insane]

1. 00:34:395 (7,1) - Similar spacing thingy as mentioned in top diff, this one needs to be the biggest spacing for emphasis. Fixed
2. 01:17:513 (7) - 2 Circles instead? There's a sound on 01:17:690 - too. Fixed
3. 01:30:439 (5) - NC should be here? Like top diff. Fixed
4. 01:37:416 (9,1) - Swap NC? No, because 01:35:672 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) is all the same section of rhythm so it would be frustrating to place NC on the end of it and not on the beginning of the new one
5. 01:53:637 (6,1) - Can you use a higher spacing like 01:56:428 (6,1) - ? Wide angle with a consistent spacing 01:53:463 (5,6,1) - just plays uncomfortable imo Fixed

[Collab Insane]

1. 00:37:361 (1,2,1,2) - These are easier than Hard lol make this harder pls Fixed
2. 00:40:151 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - These too, same as above. Should be more challenging. Fixed
3. 02:01:137 (1) - Was expecting this to be circles like what you did previously 01:58:346 - 01:59:393 - for consistency, if you don't want to put the repeat slider next to 02:02:183 (1) - then you can change 02:02:183 (1) - to stuff like 01:58:346 (1,2,3,4,5) - in Insane, that would work too. This starts with repeating slider because rhythm logic is kind of different there. Whole section goes into 3 major parts not 4, so replacing one of the final sliders with stream would be a bit strange since this prolonged sound must be emphasized by the same means in editor but replacing both these sliders with a lite version of a deathstream isn't the solution as well
4. 02:06:995 (2,3) - Fix stack. Fixed
5. 02:12:321 (8,1) - Swap NC. Fixed
6. 02:12:321 - Could’ve mapped the piano/violin or whatever sound in the background like what higher diffs did. This part is intentionally prioritizing strong beats over BG because BG seemed too intense for that style
7. 01:42:125 (6,7,8) - 01:44:916 (6,7,8) - 01:47:707 (6,7,8) - 01:50:497 (6,7,8) - Higher spacing please, there's no difference between this and hard diff at all. Fixed

[Hard]

1. 01:05:268 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - Should be something more intense than 00:48:523 (1,2,3,4) - 00:54:104 (1,2,3,4) - etc, just use circles instead. This part prioritizes vocal since even 01:06:663 (1,2) - reflects pitch going up so I don't think I should make it denser since it would hurt the concept
2. 01:42:125 (1,1,1) - 01:44:917 (1,1,1) - 01:47:707 (1,1,1) - 01:50:497 (1,1,1) - I don't see why you have to NC every repeat slider, you're abusing HP drain with this lol, just remove them Fixed
3. 01:58:346 (1,1,1,1) - 02:01:137 (1,1) - Could do something like https://puu.sh/A6smm/5f2f493eca.png instead? Because this part should be harder than 01:41:602 - May be alternating existing rhythm with what you've suggested but the part is too small and just your bursts may be too intense. Also this 01:57:997 (2,3,1) - conflicts with the previous 01:55:207 (2,3,1)

[Normal]

1. 01:06:663 (4) - Can be circles too with same reason from Hard. 4 notes in a row may be too hard and there's no moments in normal where the number of notes in a row exceeds 3 (kiai parts)
2. 01:41:602 - This part you need to use a denser rhythm, in Hard there are a lot of 1/4 rhythms here so in this diff you should focus on spamming 1/2 rhythms. Something like https://puu.sh/A6sQP/74e30edb51.png or even https://puu.sh/A6sT9/08f9cf6d9c.png would fit the diff spread much better. This section used to be exactly like you've suggested but it was said to be wrong in few mods including MrSergio's and 01:58:346 - is a little more difficult to contrast the difference with 01:41:602 but not with using more dense rhythms but with spacing out notes after sliders, so I'm not sure if I should change it, but of course we can discuss it
3. 01:58:346 - ^ Same as above, using denser rhythms. And this should be harder than 01:41:602 - too if possible. ^
4. 02:08:132 (3,1) - DS? Fixed

try to watch out for stuff like 01:19:277 - where your flow went clockwise for the entire section which could be repetitive/boring to play
in this case it's not necessary to fix but try to keep this in mind when you're mapping diffs with DS in the future

I can icon if the red ones are fixed

EDIT: +1 HP in Collab Insane and Insane too, those two diffs should have a higher HP than Hard

Big thank you for your suggestions they helped a lot to make mapset more clear, also thanks for higher quality bg image and hitsounding suggestion!

1. HP should +0.5 or +1, extra should have a higher hp than Insane
2. 00:06:582 (1) - use auto sampleset on sliderslide, apply this in Normal too.

1. 00:08:849 - Clap instead of finish.
2. 00:10:244 - 00:10:332 - Clap not finish
3. 00:34:395 (7,1) - This spacing should be bigger than 00:34:221 (6,7) -
4. 01:17:513 (7,8) - Supposed to be whistles instead of finish according to other diffs

1. 00:11:465 (3) - 01:17:513 - Hitsounds missing

1. 00:09:721 - Finish not clap

1. 00:10:419 (2) - Finish instead of clap

Electoz wrote:

[Misanthropy]

1. HP should +0.5 or +1, extra should have a higher hp than Insane Ok, +0.5
2. 00:06:582 (1) - use auto sampleset on sliderslide, apply this in Normal too. Fixed

[Insane]

1. 00:08:849 - Clap instead of finish. Fixed
2. 00:10:244 - 00:10:332 - Clap not finish Fixed
3. 00:34:395 (7,1) - This spacing should be bigger than 00:34:221 (6,7) - Fixed
4. 01:17:513 (7,8) - Supposed to be whistles instead of finish according to other diffs Fixed

[Collab Insane]

1. 00:11:465 (3) - 01:17:513 - Hitsounds missing Fixed

[Hard]

1. 00:09:721 - Finish not clap Fixed

[Easy]

1. 00:10:419 (2) - Finish instead of clap Fixed

also check hitsounds consistency on timestamps below in EVERY difficulties:
00:05:021 - 00:06:930 - 00:07:628 - 00:07:802 -

ok I give up
I only went through 10 seconds of the map, and there are too many hitsounds inconsistencies, I want you to go through the map until the end and make every hitsounds consistent in all difficulties.

Hitsounding is the only problem I'm having with this set, fix that and we'll talk

1. The mapset really feels like it disconnects from one difficulty to another. The Insane feels a lot more well thought out, and doesn't just focus on one direction for most of the map. Misanthropy feels like the grid snap was on for the whole thing. and while you can argue that it's just the style, it just doesn't feel like it's as thought out as the other difficulties, due to their usage of varying patterns. The only thing really tying the whole difficulty together is the fact that all the patterns are diagonal. This doesn't make for a good experience in play, since it's just the same thing for ~2:30m. Stuff like 00:29:512 - to 00:31:779 - , etc feel like you're just recycling the same patterns throughout the entirety of each rhythm's duration. Whilst in the Insane, the patterning is at least somewhat different across each verse. ie 00:28:989 - to 00:31:779 - Even though it's the same pattern copied and pasted, it flows a lot better due to the angles used.
   
   
2. 00:40:151 - Rather than feeling flowy, and easy to read, these sliders feel quite random and opposite to what the music is providing here. Major example being 00:43:640 - and 00:43:989 - . This jump feels quite massive in comparison to any of the other 1/4 jumps that you've used, and is a whole lot harder to feel comfortable in play, and flow wise. Same thing goes for when you repeat this 00:40:500 - and 00:40:849 - , except at a much steeper angle. The flow movement aspect between a lot of your 1/4 jump patterns feel rather arbitrary, and inconsistent. In terms of movement, the difficulty would also benefit from more consistently using angled sliders and patterns. This would provide at least some sort of consistency throughout the while copied and pasted patterns present. Going beyond that, using non angled sliders, curves, anything really, would increase emphasis and add much more flow to patterns like 00:49:919 - and 00:50:268 - , or 00:55:500 - and 00:55:849 - .
   
   
3. The hitsounding also feels kind of mediocre. I understand that you're using just the default hitsounds, but when you're also spamming the drum finish for everything, it makes all the sounds sound alike, when in reality, they are not. For example, in the kiai he could switch from spamming the finish to using the soft whistle for the bells in the melody, so they stand out more. Or really, any other sound choice would be nice, considering it all just sounds like one big mess right now. ( 00:29:861 - , 00:31:256 - , 00:34:047 - , etc) Something else that I noticed was how there's no variation between the different finishes that the song provides. The best example would be when there's quite audibly, three different finishes being used at 01:13:681 - , 01:14:374 - , and 01:15:068 - , yet only the default drum finish is used. Even an occasional soft finish would work well to break up the monotony of these hitsound choices.
4. Due to your choices with excessively using the grid, the playability of patterns suffer, and it's not even for the sake of aesthetics. Having things so straight makes creating emphasis to other things not only not play well, it devalues the interpretation of the pattern. It's not really that big of a concern since everyone does this now, but the top difficulty is quite heavily copied and pasted. Yes, you can say, well it's for consistency, but it doesn't even feel like it's for consistency due to the fact that when it's repeated, the patterns aren't even angled the same way, throwing the player off in terms of expectancy.
   
   
5. Grid usage is also an issue. A lot of the patterns feel incredibly cramped and due to this, they lose a lot of emphasis, even though the song is consistently changing. ie 01:24:160 (4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,1) - focuses just on one side of the grid, and doesn't change with the song's intonation at all. Most of the patterns feel like they're all following the same rhythmic layer, even though they're very clearly not, making some of the rhythms harder to read than others. 02:08:832 - Hanzer stream into a normal stream with this type of spacing is quite easily misread due to how the mapper earlier mapped the double rhythms. Instead of having everything parallel or vertical, they could have made use of different variations of rotations, which would not only improve gameplay, it would also make for better visual opportunities and variation.

Gordon123 wrote:

Привет, вижу что у тебя тут намечается Qualy и хотелось бы немного помочь, я не БН, но все же)
Смотрел карты(уже ранкнутые) на эту же песню и увидел в тегах иероглифы и задался вопросом, а почему у тебя их нету?
В общем :
【BOFU2016】http://bmsoffighters.net/bofu2016/
BMS : http://manbow.nothing.sh/event/event.cg ... &event=110
Artist : LeaF https://soundcloud.com/leaf-7
Illustration : セシル◇タイト https://twitter.com/ceciltite
Movie : 想起 https://twitter.com/recallv
Тебе всего лишь стоит при следующем апдейте (когда будут давать квали) добавить:
официального автора иллюстраций LeaF - セシル◇タイト
официального автора муви(видео) LeaF (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYCQrXx8hLw вот оно кстати) - 想起
а так же команду LeaF - 孤高クローバー
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Metadata proofs(если будут просить,но у тебя все нормально) :
1) https://soundcloud.com/leaf-7/alice-in-misanthrope
2) http://manbow.nothing.sh/event/event.cg ... &event=110
В случае если ты уже знал/-ла про все это, то стоило бы уже давно добавить эту информацию!

eiri- wrote:

Hello.

I feel like there are some general issues with the top two difficulties. But most notably, Misanthropy. (Hitsounding as well.)

Main issues are: Grid usage, patterning / emphasis, and movement.

1. The mapset really feels like it disconnects from one difficulty to another. The Insane feels a lot more well thought out, and doesn't just focus on one direction for most of the map. Misanthropy feels like the grid snap was on for the whole thing. and while you can argue that it's just the style, it just doesn't feel like it's as thought out as the other difficulties, due to their usage of varying patterns. The only thing really tying the whole difficulty together is the fact that all the patterns are diagonal. This doesn't make for a good experience in play, since it's just the same thing for ~2:30m. Stuff like 00:29:512 - to 00:31:779 - , etc feel like you're just recycling the same patterns throughout the entirety of each rhythm's duration. Whilst in the Insane, the patterning is at least somewhat different across each verse. ie 00:28:989 - to 00:31:779 - Even though it's the same pattern copied and pasted, it flows a lot better due to the angles used.
   
   
2. 00:40:151 - Rather than feeling flowy, and easy to read, these sliders feel quite random and opposite to what the music is providing here. Major example being 00:43:640 - and 00:43:989 - . This jump feels quite massive in comparison to any of the other 1/4 jumps that you've used, and is a whole lot harder to feel comfortable in play, and flow wise. Same thing goes for when you repeat this 00:40:500 - and 00:40:849 - , except at a much steeper angle. The flow movement aspect between a lot of your 1/4 jump patterns feel rather arbitrary, and inconsistent. In terms of movement, the difficulty would also benefit from more consistently using angled sliders and patterns. This would provide at least some sort of consistency throughout the while copied and pasted patterns present. Going beyond that, using non angled sliders, curves, anything really, would increase emphasis and add much more flow to patterns like 00:49:919 - and 00:50:268 - , or 00:55:500 - and 00:55:849 - .
   
   
3. The hitsounding also feels kind of mediocre. I understand that you're using just the default hitsounds, but when you're also spamming the drum finish for everything, it makes all the sounds sound alike, when in reality, they are not. For example, in the kiai he could switch from spamming the finish to using the soft whistle for the bells in the melody, so they stand out more. Or really, any other sound choice would be nice, considering it all just sounds like one big mess right now. ( 00:29:861 - , 00:31:256 - , 00:34:047 - , etc) Something else that I noticed was how there's no variation between the different finishes that the song provides. The best example would be when there's quite audibly, three different finishes being used at 01:13:681 - , 01:14:374 - , and 01:15:068 - , yet only the default drum finish is used. Even an occasional soft finish would work well to break up the monotony of these hitsound choices.
4. Due to your choices with excessively using the grid, the playability of patterns suffer, and it's not even for the sake of aesthetics. Having things so straight makes creating emphasis to other things not only not play well, it devalues the interpretation of the pattern. It's not really that big of a concern since everyone does this now, but the top difficulty is quite heavily copied and pasted. Yes, you can say, well it's for consistency, but it doesn't even feel like it's for consistency due to the fact that when it's repeated, the patterns aren't even angled the same way, throwing the player off in terms of expectancy.
   
   
5. Grid usage is also an issue. A lot of the patterns feel incredibly cramped and due to this, they lose a lot of emphasis, even though the song is consistently changing. ie 01:24:160 (4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,1) - focuses just on one side of the grid, and doesn't change with the song's intonation at all. Most of the patterns feel like they're all following the same rhythmic layer, even though they're very clearly not, making some of the rhythms harder to read than others. 02:08:832 - Hanzer stream into a normal stream with this type of spacing is quite easily misread due to how the mapper earlier mapped the double rhythms. Instead of having everything parallel or vertical, they could have made use of different variations of rotations, which would not only improve gameplay, it would also make for better visual opportunities and variation.

Nitpicking aside, a lot of concepts that were introduced could be polished, and better brought out with more mods and paying more attention to different layers of the music. This especially applies to things that you have hitsounded. (ie 01:21:631 - and 01:21:718 - are hitsounded like a double, yet the patterning is in the form of a triple. Feels quite misleading tbh.)

Murasaki Nova wrote:

Whole extra diff fully represents music and no, grid snap has not been used once since when the mapping has started till the bubble, all of that has been done manually following the concept easily seen on the map.

eiri- wrote:

None of your response actually addresses any of the playability or hitsounding concerns that I raised. It just states that you wanted to use different concepts. While that is valid, that's not the issue at hand here.

Fouriose wrote:

Onto the hitsounds. So does the kiai part looks like it really follows the the main rhythm? I understand the idea of hitsounding each sound with individual hitsound and all of that but with such variety of sounds, pitches etc. it wouldn't be really possible to make it sound good and keep consistent in all diffs so I had no choice but to come up with something that could follow the rhythm on all (almost, except for easy and normal) diffs and also make different parts in contrast with each other where it is needed.

And no, custom hitsounds are useless I'm not sure why do they even exist, and "classic" hitsounding with emhasis on white ticks is lame.

Fouriose wrote:

Sigh... One day people will learn to read I guess. Being able to play and "hit the patterns" is the essential part of judging the playability if you can't do so - you can't judge it proprely. Also that's the reason I said quote: "let's leave that to ours subjective thinking or provide sufficient proves". If there's no places that could've been refered to as a problematic and unplayable that's just what you think, same goes for everything else.

Fouriose wrote:

Yes hitsounds are ment to provide feedback to player but I think your beloved custom hitsounds ship has a 95% chance to crash in to the same type of iceberg as the custom map skins do: http://puu.sh/Aeut9/4663ff67e6.jpg Unfortunately, that's how most people like their game, and that's my thinking as well, you are free to disagree.

Fouriose wrote:

And it seems like I need to really put it straight forward - this section exists for mods, not personal thoughts and stuff (simple feedback messages are ok tho but not trying to prolong this discussion to eternity). With that said if someone wants to talk about playability or maybe provide their maps for test plays (jk) and have a talk about custom hitsounds being an important part of the map, please use forum or in-game PM.

MaridiuS wrote:

Besides, the map being bubbled may be dangerous to new mappers, they may think "oh if my map got bubbled that means I don't need to learn anymore, I'm a good enough mapper!" and avoid plenty of general concerns that may help the map and the mapper overall if they don't think they need to improve. If it gets out of hand they will most likely decide to sort it out in irc.

MaridiuS wrote:

Fouriose wrote:

Sigh... One day people will learn to read I guess. Being able to play and "hit the patterns" is the essential part of judging the playability if you can't do so - you can't judge it proprely. Also that's the reason I said quote: "let's leave that to ours subjective thinking or provide sufficient proves". If there's no places that could've been refered to as a problematic and unplayable that's just what you think, same goes for everything else.

So if I as rank 15k that can easily play the map says the same things eiri- did, my arguments are automatically more valid? The concern is not that the patterns are hard to play, the concern is that they're not fun or intuitive to play because the movement is quite arbitrary and spacing sometimes is really off. eiri- has provided examples for this. Also, would you be kind to stop the passive-aggressiveness? You try to make people involved look like idiots with the "Sigh... One day people will learn to read I guess." or "And it seems like I need to really put it straight forward" and does nothing helpful to the discussion.

Fouriose wrote:

Yes hitsounds are ment to provide feedback to player but I think your beloved custom hitsounds ship has a 95% chance to crash in to the same type of iceberg as the custom map skins do: http://puu.sh/Aeut9/4663ff67e6.jpg Unfortunately, that's how most people like their game, and that's my thinking as well, you are free to disagree.

You're underestimating how often people use custom hitsounds on tbh. +Having those parts as whistles will even help those people with custom skins because who knows how loud their finish is. Default soft-hitwhistle may do the job perfectly.

Fouriose wrote:

And it seems like I need to really put it straight forward - this section exists for mods, not personal thoughts and stuff (simple feedback messages are ok tho but not trying to prolong this discussion to eternity). With that said if someone wants to talk about playability or maybe provide their maps for test plays (jk) and have a talk about custom hitsounds being an important part of the map, please use forum or in-game PM.

I mean this is a mapping thread that serves for mapping discussion, does it state anywhere that we're only supposed to mod individual patterns? eiri- has clearly presented all issues and stuff that mapper could not be aware off. General modding may help the mapper in much better way than few individual patterns that stick off. Besides, the map being bubbled may be dangerous to new mappers, they may think "oh if my map got bubbled that means I don't need to learn anymore, I'm a good enough mapper!" and avoid plenty of general concerns that may help the map and the mapper overall if they don't think they need to improve. If it gets out of hand they will most likely decide to sort it out in irc.

Murasaki Nova, look we're not trying to pressure you, we're just trying to make you understand the concerns and that the map has a lot of room for improvement. Please don't be biased because it has BN approval, as I'm sure a vast majority of people would agree with plenty of ayyri's concerns . Some things like lack of grid usage is an obvious flaw that you need to take a closer look into. The patterns are just randomly clustered and you don't separate new patterns for new sound grouping in the map which may make the patterns distinct, avoid clutterness therefore increasing the quality of the map. In case you'd like, I can offer you some concrete examples with argumentation to why in irc if you're up to it.

Fouriose, a common technique is to simply hitsound difficulties of the map differently because they may end up following different layers. There's no issue in hitsounding the top diff and lets say hard in a different manner if they make sense with the map.

MaridiuS wrote:

Fouriose wrote:

Sigh... One day people will learn to read I guess. Being able to play and "hit the patterns" is the essential part of judging the playability if you can't do so - you can't judge it proprely. Also that's the reason I said quote: "let's leave that to ours subjective thinking or provide sufficient proves". If there's no places that could've been refered to as a problematic and unplayable that's just what you think, same goes for everything else.

So if I as rank 15k that can easily play the map says the same things eiri- did, my arguments are automatically more valid? The concern is not that the patterns are hard to play, the concern is that they're not fun or intuitive to play because the movement is quite arbitrary and spacing sometimes is really off. eiri- has provided examples for this. Also, would you be kind to stop the passive-aggressiveness? You try to make people involved look like idiots with the "Sigh... One day people will learn to read I guess." or "And it seems like I need to really put it straight forward" and does nothing helpful to the discussion.

Fouriose wrote:

Yes hitsounds are ment to provide feedback to player but I think your beloved custom hitsounds ship has a 95% chance to crash in to the same type of iceberg as the custom map skins do: http://puu.sh/Aeut9/4663ff67e6.jpg Unfortunately, that's how most people like their game, and that's my thinking as well, you are free to disagree.

You're underestimating how often people use custom hitsounds on tbh. +Having those parts as whistles will even help those people with custom skins because who knows how loud their finish is. Default soft-hitwhistle may do the job perfectly.

Fouriose wrote:

And it seems like I need to really put it straight forward - this section exists for mods, not personal thoughts and stuff (simple feedback messages are ok tho but not trying to prolong this discussion to eternity). With that said if someone wants to talk about playability or maybe provide their maps for test plays (jk) and have a talk about custom hitsounds being an important part of the map, please use forum or in-game PM.

I mean this is a mapping thread that serves for mapping discussion, does it state anywhere that we're only supposed to mod individual patterns? eiri- has clearly presented all issues and stuff that mapper could not be aware off. General modding may help the mapper in much better way than few individual patterns that stick off. Besides, the map being bubbled may be dangerous to new mappers, they may think "oh if my map got bubbled that means I don't need to learn anymore, I'm a good enough mapper!" and avoid plenty of general concerns that may help the map and the mapper overall if they don't think they need to improve. If it gets out of hand they will most likely decide to sort it out in irc.

Murasaki Nova, look we're not trying to pressure you, we're just trying to make you understand the concerns and that the map has a lot of room for improvement. Please don't be biased because it has BN approval, as I'm sure a vast majority of people would agree with plenty of ayyri's concerns . Some things like lack of grid usage is an obvious flaw that you need to take a closer look into. The patterns are just randomly clustered and you don't separate new patterns for new sound grouping in the map which may make the patterns distinct, avoid clutterness therefore increasing the quality of the map. In case you'd like, I can offer you some concrete examples with argumentation to why in irc if you're up to it.

Fouriose, a common technique is to simply hitsound difficulties of the map differently because they may end up following different layers. There's no issue in hitsounding the top diff and lets say hard in a different manner if they make sense with the map.

Fouriose wrote:

And about my way of refering to people, that "does nothing helpful to the discussion". So do mods without clear point in their existence. Since the bubble has been popped mapper is no longer ignorant according to you, so now it is clearly opened for any quality suggestions. Imo mods should have clear structure with clear statement of problem, why is it a problem or why this is not acceptable and a solution to this. Isn't that way easier and prevents useless argues like that: you give clear mod with clearly seen point in it - and recieve clear answer, people like to overcomlicate things

Fouriose wrote:

Common technique isnt the only one am I right? So if this hitsounding does not violate any rules what's about it, surely I'm not the one to decide but you know, opinions.

Murasaki Nova wrote:

Where's the pressure on me? Did anyone mention that? All I did is just answer about concept concerns. There was no statement why is that a mistake all it was is "that pattern looks random". Speaking of mods and improving the map, you said you could help, sure I'd gladly accept any help to really make it better. Unfortunately I don't have much time atm on irc so if you don't mind it I'd prefer forum mod even if it'll took more time

Fouriose wrote:

And no, custom hitsounds are useless I'm not sure why do they even exist, and "classic" hitsounding with emhasis on white ticks is lame.

Fouriose wrote:

Sigh... One day people will learn to read I guess. Being able to play and "hit the patterns" is the essential part of judging the playability if you can't do so - you can't judge it proprely.

Stefan wrote:

Fouriose wrote:

And no, custom hitsounds are useless I'm not sure why do they even exist, and "classic" hitsounding with emhasis on white ticks is lame.

Yes, nobody really needs creativity and consistency.

Fouriose wrote:

Sigh... One day people will learn to read I guess. Being able to play and "hit the patterns" is the essential part of judging the playability if you can't do so - you can't judge it proprely.

If I consider the movie being garbage, my opinion doesn't count because I am not a movie critic? So by the logic as long at least one player in the entire world can play the map it is good - doesn't matter if the rest disagree. :thinking:

eiri- wrote:

Hello.

I feel like there are some general issues with the top two difficulties. But most notably, Misanthropy. (Hitsounding as well.)

Main issues are: Grid usage, patterning / emphasis, and movement.

1. The mapset really feels like it disconnects from one difficulty to another. The Insane feels a lot more well thought out, and doesn't just focus on one direction for most of the map. Misanthropy feels like the grid snap was on for the whole thing. and while you can argue that it's just the style, it just doesn't feel like it's as thought out as the other difficulties, due to their usage of varying patterns. The only thing really tying the whole difficulty together is the fact that all the patterns are diagonal. This doesn't make for a good experience in play, since it's just the same thing for ~2:30m. Stuff like 00:29:512 - to 00:31:779 - , etc feel like you're just recycling the same patterns throughout the entirety of each rhythm's duration. Whilst in the Insane, the patterning is at least somewhat different across each verse. ie 00:28:989 - to 00:31:779 - Even though it's the same pattern copied and pasted, it flows a lot better due to the angles used. Same sound - same style of patterning. Consistency. In insane these are following more the style of movement in contrary to top diff that you has mentioned as concerning where it focuses on both patterns and movement resulting in a similar patterns
   
   
2. 00:40:151 - Rather than feeling flowy, and easy to read, these sliders feel quite random and opposite to what the music is providing here. Major example being 00:43:640 - and 00:43:989 - . This jump feels quite massive in comparison to any of the other 1/4 jumps that you've used, and is a whole lot harder to feel comfortable in play, and flow wise. Same thing goes for when you repeat this 00:40:500 - and 00:40:849 - , except at a much steeper angle. The flow movement aspect between a lot of your 1/4 jump patterns feel rather arbitrary, and inconsistent. In terms of movement, the difficulty would also benefit from more consistently using angled sliders and patterns. This would provide at least some sort of consistency throughout the while copied and pasted patterns present. Going beyond that, using non angled sliders, curves, anything really, would increase emphasis and add much more flow to patterns like 00:49:919 - and 00:50:268 - , or 00:55:500 - and 00:55:849 - . 00:40:151 Pitches anyone? 00:40:151 (1) - Pitch goes down so does the slider, 00:40:500 (2,3) - two pitch-ups so do the sliders, 00:41:198 (4) - pitch down and so does the slider, so I have no idea why would these type of sounds should be flowy. This part stands out a lot so should be mapped accordingly and 00:43:640 (1) - after this the intensity starts to rise so the map should reflect this. Also this spacing is not that scary as may seem if the slider leniency is taken into account so the spacing is actually about 5 arrows of default skin which does not ruin the jump as real 7 arrow jump would. Flow wise that's just a regular flow since 00:43:989 (2) - may be played as a straight slider from head to tail (and is played that way since no one follows the curve of that type of sliders unless they are slow enough) so flow there has the "V" shape that is not uncomfortable. "Same thing goes for when you repeat this 00:40:500 - and 00:40:849 - , except at a much steeper angle". Seems like you were referring to 00:41:547 (1,2,3,4) - same pitch logic is applied here but since this part goes down as a whole while remaining similar vocal pattern as previous it cannot be mapped the same way.
   
   
3. Grid usage is also an issue. A lot of the patterns feel incredibly cramped and due to this, they lose a lot of emphasis, even though the song is consistently changing. ie 01:24:160 (4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,1) - focuses just on one side of the grid, and doesn't change with the song's intonation at all. Most of the patterns feel like they're all following the same rhythmic layer, even though they're very clearly not, making some of the rhythms harder to read than others. 02:08:832 - Hanzer stream into a normal stream with this type of spacing is quite easily misread due to how the mapper earlier mapped the double rhythms. Instead of having everything parallel or vertical, they could have made use of different variations of rotations, which would not only improve gameplay, it would also make for better visual opportunities and variation. So patterns managed to cover like 70% of the playfield in five seconds and you consider that cramped you want these patterns to cover 90% of the playfield or something like that? I don't that can be realized outside the 6* jump maps. Also considering misheard sliders logic I don't think we should be arguing about changes in intonation. 02:08:919 (2,1,2,1,2,3,4) - this is basically a prolonged version of 02:15:984 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - that requires its own pattern since this does not appear in the map, also this is the same type of patterning of this kind of streams just a little longer and is not covered or overlapped so I'm not sure how that could be misread.

eiri- wrote:

Due to your choices with excessively using the grid...

eiri- wrote:

Grid usage is also an issue. A lot of the patterns feel incredibly cramped and due to this...

MaridiuS wrote:

I'm sure a vast majority of people would agree with plenty of ayyri's concerns . Some things like lack of grid usage is an obvious flaw that you need to take a closer look into.

Nao Tomori wrote:

hitsounding - w/e. not gonna argue about this, customs are nice additions, defaults are fine too.

playability - just being able to play something does not imply that opinions are valid or invalid. experienced mappers who have many ranked sets or spent a lot of time in editor analyzing maps can definitely find concerns without "being able to play the map." the "elo" you are looking for in this type of discussion is not playing skill but rather mapping and analysis skill, which is separate from that.

regarding the map -
i think i agree on some of the 1/4 jump things, stuff like 00:49:919 (1,2) - feels quite awkward to play due to the movement needed, while others like 00:49:221 (1,2) - lead into each other and are much more comfortable. Yes back and forth movement is much more easy to play but these 2 sliders represent 2 similar sounds and the back and forth part has different sounds.

i think screen use can also be a bit better, but that's not really a huge deal imo. it doesn't feel particularly awful to me anyway...

biggest issue imo is aesthetics and organization of patterns, things like 00:22:351 (1,2,3,4,1) - which uses different angles looks weird even though there's a clear purpose for the different angles. i think it makes it look really rigid and strange. the jump patterns like 01:02:302 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - also play a bit oddly due to different angles between the jumps that seem to not be organized in a logical way - there is a downwards progression but spacing goes up, and the angle between things are quite weird... 00:22:351 (1,2,3,4,1) - did that to represent the only one really low part of the song 01:02:302 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - Fixed

01:05:616 (3) - this is also comboed inconsistently btw lol no since that part really stands out from other jumps in that section + there's vocals

01:26:253 (1,2,3) - this pattern ends up playing pretty weakly because the player will just stop halfway through the 1 slider and go to 2. moving 2 down like http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/10865379 would be better in terms of making the player actually follow 1 slider. Done

01:36:370 (2,3,4) - i do think these triples are pretty awkward, they don't sound supported and white-red is pretty weird to play imo. better to just use a slider maybe? Agree, this triple really stands out but imo it really needs to be like that because it represents 3 strong beats and reverse slider would remove a lot of tension since that is kiai part, and that may be kind of misleading

01:49:277 (1,2,3,4) - this angle is really strange to play, mostly cuz it's wide angle and the rest are sharp angles Yup, fixed

01:54:945 - skipping that =(

anyway i dont think the issues are really as serious as ayyri thinks, but there is still room for improvement. there is a lot of logic to the patterns but imo it lacks cohesion in terms of how those patterns play, which just needs practice...

Kuo Kyoka wrote:

whew, at least please give credits to whatever map you used theirs BG and mp3 ...

Kuo Kyoka wrote:

that's my edit for the BG, exclusively for Kawawa's map, the art isn't mine however, but it's still my edition, yet I know the original pixiv artist actually, it was for this BMS song, without text on it

And what about "internet?" means? jeez, sounds like you sacarms me over not knowing things from this song.