Why this feature request is needed is because:

Now, we are about to have many rules/guidelines we never had before, to limit the BG/SB elements/Combo Color, why do we even do that? We're trying to make all players happy, let all of them could enjoy the fun of a certain map. But this thing in fact reduced the possibility of a map, may leads to a total decrease of map quality (just a small part though)

So what if we throw this question to the players? if we are trying to make them happy, why not let players to decide? Mappers who want to keep his map as what he want could still do it, which do no harm to current system, but some more players could benefit from this new feature, some of the mappers (like myself) won't be under the pressure of "hey you can't do this".

So why not?

It is impossible to make everybody in a given commmunity happy with what they have. That being said, I didn't say I disagree with you. I just think this would be better off as an optional setting specified by the mapper, rather than giving players complete control over the combo colours.

Mapsets are pieces of art, let the mappers use the combo colours they want and they must be played by the p--- oh wait, it disturbs players, since it blends with the background, since this is a game too, not just art.

Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played. And it's the modders job to make sure the maps are playable by the players BEFORE they get ranked, if issues like this slip by, then there was a problem during the modding process of the beatmap that wasn't addressed, and the people involved should have pointed it out.

Instead of trying to change the colors for players, tell the mappers the blending colours during the modding process, so they can change it and it doesn't happen again.

Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.

After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played.

They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.

NatsumeRin wrote:

After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)

You're right, they are

NatsumeRin wrote:

They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.

That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.

I think this will explain well enough.

Art More Mappers, and all the modders, will certainly benefit from this new feature.

the Gameplay More Players, have to play the map once to get to the option, which do little harm to them. But im pretty sure the whole mapper community would like to see this.

The advantages is really much more than disadvantages.

Edit: in fact there's more... such as:
If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.
If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.
If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

opinions?

That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.

Not unnecessary for a lot of players.
Not in this case myself but what about players that are color blind?

Colorblind people are completely unnecessary.

I'm color blind and with some colors its like I'm playing certain maps on hidden because approaches blend in with backgrounds, etc Not to mention just bad color combo's and colors + backgrounds.

There's a point where game play needs to come before someone who wants their map to look pretty. Aesthetics should not come first. I'm not really sure why a mapper would get upset by changing the color scheme on combos and see no reason why we shouldn't be able to change them.

I understand some of these people spend many hours on their maps, that's no reason for them to spend only 5 minutes thinking about what skins/backgrounds to copy and paste into them and not be sure they don't interfere with the users experience of the game.

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.

Right now, there are more people that are gameplay oriented than mappers

We just need to accept the fact that mappers are the minority, but have more power since most of them have mod/admin powers

So we want to ask you kindly, because sometimes, players want to do a really good score, and 0 distraction would really, really help

I know most of the mappers don't play alot or don't try to rank double time songs/hardrock, but please just think about it once


Also : I knew a friend, which was colorblind also, this would REALLY REALLY help her to enjoy the game

I thank you for posting this suggestion Natsume. I think this would easily solve issues of BG blending as well as what Xact says about some users being colour blind.

Xact wrote:

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.

It already is. Maps with poor contrast shouldn't be getting ranked in the first place.
Colour blindness is irrelevant since motion is only strongly perceived in the luma domain anyway. Approach circles with low luma contrast will be hard to see for everyone.

If a map has awful combo colours, point it out in the map's thread and get a BAT to change it.

NatsumeRin wrote:

opinions?

Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.

mm201 wrote:

Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.

This shouldn't be words saying by a dev. As i know what we should do is to make all players happy (though it's impossible to please everyone, but let's say most then), not make only you happy, so stop the subjective comments.

Edit: check it in a objective way plz, does the new feature benefit more people? if yes, what's your point on stopping this? your personal preference? Also, learn to be polite and choose your words, thanks.

Gameplay More players should suck it up

It's interesting to see how little the devs think of the competitive players. And you expect us to sit silently and accept everything you impose on us?
This game was made popular by the players not by the devs.

This problem is very simple.

Mapper have rights to let player play map with mapper's own setting ( include AR SB Skin )
vs
Player can choose how to play except the width of judgment and overall difficulty , etc etc ( core elements of map)


First of all, there is no difference between player mapper modder bat mat devs.
(devs could be exclude from this , but still remind this )

dvorak wrote:

This problem is very simple.

Mapper have rights to let player play map with mapper's own setting ( include AR SB Skin )
vs
Player can choose how to play except the width of judgment and overall difficulty , etc etc ( core elements of map)

emm i don't think it's only that. this feature aims to get a point between the two sides and benefit both of them.

dvorak wrote:

First of all, there is no difference between player mapper modder bat mat devs.
(devs could be exclude from this , but still remind this )

That's it.

You asked for opinions, I gave you one.
If it was my say, I'd add it. I don't really care.

This doesn't change the fact that mappers who are inconsiderate of players are doing something wrong. (a map made with no attention to gameplay SHOULD be nuked)
Likewise, players who rely on the fake skill of disabling skins by no means oblige us to add more fake skill elements for them to abuse.

mm201 wrote:

This doesn't change the fact that mappers who are inconsiderate of players are doing something wrong. (a map made with no attention to gameplay SHOULD be nuked)

I could agree with this. but it's still hard to draw a line of what is "inconsiderate of players"

mm201 wrote:

Likewise, players who rely on the fake skill of disabling skins by no means oblige us to add more fake skill elements for them to abuse.

Personally i'm one of those who never delete any elements of a map, but as we all know, it happens a lot, more and more people start to do this, so before they start to act in maps, (things like "Your SB makes me blind, why do you even bother to make it?") we may need some ideas to stop the potential flames.

in that "example", could you say the mapper is inconsiderate of players? i guess not, because there can't be a totally objective way to judge. since things happens this way, why not try to solve at a neutral point.


Edit: @Ever17, check SapphireGhost's post.

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

Sorry if I said something not concerning to this feature.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If we put a rule "No combo colors should be blend to the BG/video/SB/whatever", it's still a subjective thing, and really hard to draw a line to limit those.

I don't see how it's a subjective thing when it can actually be measured

/' I'm not blaming anyone. '/

peppy already showed one solution for Skin disable option thread.

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

It won't solve problem, it will make new problem.

We should choose disable all, enable all, enable after xxx, etc, need to make one rule for whole map.

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

This basically amounts to a checkbox which states "I created a horrible atrocity which no one will want to see." (inb4 I get misunderstood again)

In other words, opinions on what's playable/unplayable differ from player to player, but when it's the very creator who makes the judgement call, either they think their map is fine and will leave this field unchecked or they think something's wrong with it and check the field.
Alternatively, a mapper may think "power to the players!" and check the field all the time.
In either case, it doesn't get used for its intended purpose.

like all controversial feature requests, we're talking about less than 5% of beatmaps, and that number is steadily decreasing. I don't mind the crappy skin/color maps: I vote 1 and move right along.

awp wrote:

NatsumeRin wrote:

If we put a rule "No combo colors should be blend to the BG/video/SB/whatever", it's still a subjective thing, and really hard to draw a line to limit those.

I don't see how it's a subjective thing when it can actually be measured

1) it's hard to measure
2) at what difference are the colors good enough?
3) what is the % color reduction in the background dim?



While this one is pretty clearly too close, I can actually tell fairly well where this note is whenever I play.

ziin wrote:

While this one is pretty clearly too close, I can actually tell fairly well where this note is whenever I play.

Well, in that example, the approach circle is still transparent. So while the beatmap might be a suitable example, that image doesn't provide helpful information.

As for measurement, it's very easy. The combo colours themselves are recorded in the .osu files, and to check them against a background image you just throw the image into an editor such as photoshop, index the colours so that the prominent ones pop out, then measure the colour and diff the RGB values from the combo colours.

Now video, that's a bit tricky. Good thing you can disable those through the UI.

Well you can always edit the colours on the new combos to skip some colors so to avoid blending with certain video sections

NO WAY. But it would be nice if there was a "I'M COLORBLIND" button.

awp wrote:

then measure the colour and diff the RGB values from the combo colours.

So are you talking on a channel to channel basis?

Because +33, +33, +33 isn't much difference, but +99, +0, +0 is pretty huge. Trying to figure out where the limits of what's acceptable is the problem. I agree you can measure it, but the one on the right is much easier to see than the one on the left, and if I did +0,+0,+99, that's even harder to see.

How about "use your head?" oh wait, that has since long stopped working which is why there needs to be rules discussed, but yeah really, im impressed this topic was even created, it's pretty easy to know what you didnt see because it was too hard to see.

mm201 wrote:

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

This basically amounts to a checkbox which states "I created a horrible atrocity which no one will want to see." (inb4 I get misunderstood again)

In other words, opinions on what's playable/unplayable differ from player to player, but when it's the very creator who makes the judgement call, either they think their map is fine and will leave this field unchecked or they think something's wrong with it and check the field.
Alternatively, a mapper may think "power to the players!" and check the field all the time.
In either case, it doesn't get used for its intended purpose.

I'd like to politely disagree. I think that it would be better for the mapper to give players a choice on how they would like to experience the beatmap, and I know that sometimes I enjoy making storyboards but if someone doesn't want to see that storyboard, I would not want to force them to see it. But you're free to disagree with me ~

Basically you fit into category 2, the mappers who would always check it because they like giving players the option.

Sakura Hana wrote:

How about "use your head?" oh wait, that has since long stopped working which is why there needs to be rules discussed, but yeah really, im impressed this topic was even created, it's pretty easy to know what you didnt see because it was too hard to see.

You must be fucking kidding me.

Oh, woops, I couldn't see this note because it's exactly same color as BG! Woops, I must be a retard!

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

mm201 wrote:

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

As far as I know, this thread wasn't created only to stop new maps from being ranked, but old maps that don't make any sense on their colours, like Chocobo with the black circle.

So uh, I would like to know your opinion on these maps.

Blue Dragon wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

As far as I know, this thread wasn't created only to stop new maps from being ranked, but old maps that don't make any sense on their colours, like Chocobo with the black circle.

So uh, I would like to know your opinion on these maps.

Hax submit?

In either case BD, you totally misunderstood what i said, im not calling anyone a retard, rather im saying that you must use your head when modding to see what's good and what's not good, if there's a problem it should be addressed during the modding phase, but most players that play pending maps go "lol star" rather than finding these issues with the maps and mentioning them, they may earn their first ever kudosu for doing so, however they dont, and when maps get ranked, they complain.

If there's such a big problem with a distracting storyboard, skin, etc, just go ahead to the beatmap thread and say it before it gets ranked, if it's too much of a problem it could be unranked, then loss of scores, and thread becomes drama (i still love how i pointed out blending colors on this map by directly PMing some BATs on the day it got ranked and no one did anything so im not sure if they care or not now, but really pink over pink?)

Instead of trying to fix what's not broken, why not prevent the blending colours from getting ranked, which is the whole reason the rule was created in the first place.

Seems Sakura Hana still don't get the idea.

It means, a general solution for the combo color thing, included the maps will be ranked, also the maps got ranked before. If you insist to "fix" combo color/SB/BG before a map get ranked or even bother to unrank them, have you ever considered, will those "fixed elements" be suitable for all players? it's still opinions by one or two people, or a little group, it's just turns "let mapper decide" to "let modders decide", no really difference here, because there's still no choice leaves for players and they have to deal with it. it's impossible for 100% players to feel comfortable about those elements.

According to what the request is going now, we could still leave the right "if the map is optional" to mappers and if the mapper is not willing to change, he could still keeps what he want to show. This feature really improves sth without hurt someone.

I could agree that mappers should have some "special right" just because they're mappers (i'm a mapper myself, yeah), spends days or even weeks to make a map, so he could decide "if it's optional". But in Sakura's way, why a certain modder is so special and have the right to force others use the "probably fit" color? If we decide to change, should players' opinion be the first place to consider about? They will decide what's the colors fit themselves for sure.

The problem is (if you disagree with these things just say it plz):
1. We all agree mappers should have some rights to handle his own maps.
2. We all agree players' feeling must be considered.
3. We need a point between this to get all things work fine.
4. No, it's not only modders. If the mapper have no right to force players, the modders shouldn't even think about that. So this is what the feature stands.

Players feelings are considered... they are welcome to mod the map anytime before it gets ranked.

What i mean is, why are you trying to fix something that is not broken

Sakura Hana wrote:

Players feelings are considered... they are welcome to mod the map anytime before it gets ranked.

What i mean is, why are you trying to fix something that is not broken

Not really, you have to admit "players" and "modders" are probably 2 separated groups. 90% of the players won't play a map that's not ranked. And this is why now mappers treat "rank" so seriously.

So in your way, The 90%'s feeling is not considered, really. And i guess 90% is probably less than the real number.

the fact that they dont, doesnt mean that they cant.

Edit: If players really wanted to voice their opinions on maps, they really would mod them before they are ranked, so they can play them in peace without anything bothering them, and the way the mapper intentended them to be played, both players and mappers can come to an agreement on what fits both for the mapper's criteria and the player's gameplay so the map can be the best it can for both the mapper and the players.
But since like players dont want to ever touch pending maps, so they dont want to voice their opinions when the maps can still be changed, rather they voice their opinion when nothing can be done.

Do we solve things based on the fact, or "they could and they should"?

Edit: In this feature, everything could be done after it's ranked. Players could still get what mappers intend the map to be (they have to play the map once to get the option). Players could change things fit themselves perfectly, which is obvious a better solution to force all players use the same color (if we're talking about gameplay). So what will leave you unsatisfied?

If they can play a pending map, and voice their opinion to the mapper already, i dont see why we should let them have control of the combo colours. It's obvious this is going to be a pointless argument between you and me, so i'll refrain from posting any further, i already have given my point and you gave yours, we just disagree with each other.

Oh also something i forgot: players are already modding the maps, the only difference is that we dont call them players anymore ^^;; are are you telling me that modders dont play?