if you half assedly address the issue of course people will tell you that your original is better?

you aren't even talking about the point raised but something entirely different right now

Okorin wrote:

if you half assedly address the issue of course people will tell you that your original is better?

you aren't even talking about the point raised but something entirely different right now

mmm you didn't know all the 4 versions I did show, I had my original one the 7,30, the current one with the nerfed jumps 7.10, one with downscaled patterns which was 7.02 and the current one with a different pattern of 7,0

So i basically went asking with downscaled patterns, different patterns and original diff, people still prefered the original one.

In the beginning I was above to change them, because Irre told me that worstpolak and rafis hated the patterns, then I asked them and they told me they was sad about me removing and downscaling it.

I think, I already give deep explains why the pattern and the spacing work best in the map, I already got the support from the target audience and the only response i have is * I think vocals aren't only left and I think the spacing is too big *, I believe my arguments and feedback from the target audience are stronger than that. So in the end isn't just we having different interpretations of the song?

this is what I talked with worstpolak and his response:

we thought it was overdone at first but then we played it
he asked me what I think of the pattern when I was in bed and I glanced at it and said LOL OVERDONE AF XDDD
but then I played it and saw the entire map and I was wrong

Not really so far you try to justify stuff with people supporting (irrelevant to the argument) it and other versions of the pattern being worse (which may be your own fault to begin with) while your logic behind the pattern is being questioned

without explaining the logic

and logic doesn't equal to consistency here it equals to relating a pattern or part of a pattern to the general musical movement where we find the pattern to inaccurately suggest that the song has a harsh climaxing portion which it doesn't

Okorin wrote:

Not really so far you try to justify stuff with people supporting (irrelevant to the argument) it and other versions of the pattern being worse (which may be your own fault to begin with) while your logic behind the pattern is being questioned

without explaining the logic

and logic doesn't equal to consistency here it equals to relating a pattern or part of a pattern to the general musical movement where we find the pattern to inaccurately suggest that the song has a harsh climaxing portion which it doesn't

1. 1 I justified myself in a logical way in: p/5998172
   
2. 2 Cxu explained why the spacing in the editor didn't equal the spacing in the gameplay here: p/5998426
   
3. 3 I went asking mappers and top players to see if I were wrong about my emphasis and pattern or if Irre was wrong, the response I got was clear my interpretation makes sense to them.
   
4. 4 Irre said downscaling the spacing don't work and the pattern don't work
   
5. 5 I tried again asking opinions, this time without the nerfing pattern, but making something different as the 'vocals aren't only left argument' , still people prefer my original version.

so you guys think the song doesn't justify the spacing and the pattern, but on the other side you have me the mapper who listen to this song for months, before I even mapped it and a lot of other people saying the spacing and pattern does fit the song, who is right?

so i justify myself with rhythm emphasis, with top players opinion and some mappers, I meant I did everything on my hands to justify my map, in the end isn't more important the mapper interpretation and the comunity support?
If you want more explains I can give them to you, tbh I always build my maps with all the structure in mind and I can explain every object and spacing, probably I'll explain how the whole map works.

Okorin wrote:

Not really so far you try to justify stuff with people supporting (irrelevant to the argument) it and other versions of the pattern being worse (which may be your own fault to begin with) while your logic behind the pattern is being questioned

without explaining the logic

and logic doesn't equal to consistency here it equals to relating a pattern or part of a pattern to the general musical movement where we find the pattern to inaccurately suggest that the song has a harsh climaxing portion which it doesn't

I'm not specifically targeting you or your post here, it just kind of touched on a bunch of things I wanted to write down, so I'm kinda replying to it, so yeah. It's more directed towards the QATs in general in this thread I guess.

If you believe people supporting it is irrelevant to the argument, then your opinion is equally irrelevant to the argument. While being good at the game isn't the end-all be-all in terms of understanding mapping, neither is being a QAT, and if the idea is to further discussion, I see no reason why other people's positive opinion isn't relevant. The people responding here also aren't purely players, but quite a few also have experience with mapping (me and worstpolack for example). I'd like to think the collective support behind it from us at least amounts to something, considering the fact that the QAT here is also using numbers in a sense (QATs coming along to give their opinion on the matter).

Logic behind the patterns have been explained several times. The problem here isn't that it's not explained, it's that it seems the QAT has decided to not accept it as a reasonable explanation. If that's the case, don't keep saying that it hasn't been explained. Also, whatever happened to the process of helping a DQd map back into the qualified section again? If you believe this is unfitting, why has there been barely any suggestions in this thread on how to improve the pattern other than "remap it lol". It seems stupid to demand a change to a pattern or concept, without providing any suggestions to improve it and why said suggestion is better in particular since you point out that the remap might as well be worse due to it being rushed. There is no discussion to be had if all that comes from one side is yes or no until the other side has changed things enough. If this has been going on in-game with Natsu, then that's good, but considering the replies posted here, it doesn't really seem like it has.

As for the actual logic, the map is clearly following the vocals, and the singer is clearly singing more rapidly during the parts with the bigger jumps. If you believe this isn't a climaxing portion of the song, neither are 1/2 jump usage on 1/2 sections in songs where the drum is playing every 1/2 beat, since that would be equal to what the vocal is doing in this song.

In terms of jumps being "too big" compared to the song, jump distance is relative to the skill of the player. A half screen jump can feel really big for a mid-level player used to playing hard/insane diffs, but that same jump will feel trivial to a more skilled player. For all players, there is a threshold where anything below is more or less trivial to aim, and this threshold gets higher and higher as you get better at the game. Thus difference in spacing below that threshold often don't add much impact at all. The fact that you can vary spacing quite a bit in general through a map without making the map feel off in emphasis even if the song itself is close to constant shows that to a degree spacing emphasis isn't necessarily felt unless it is deliberate (for example by increasing the spacing compared to other parts of the map). Also considering the target audience of the map being high, it's not unreasonable to think that the amount of change in the spacing between patterns is better than reducing it, as it then loses the challenging aspects of the map, and what creates the emphasis in the first place.

added new mp3, I'm going to add the video soon, going to edit this post with the full explain of the map, maybe that can convince you guys

okay so the beatmap is builded around symmetry (as any other of my 52 ranked maps)

part 1

00:00:256 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - the first section is mapped to the piano, basically 1/1 stacks and tiny jumps in 1/2s

part 2

1. 00:09:856 (1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - vocals come in, all is spaced properly in order to introduce 1/2 constant taps,
2. 00:17:056 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - the song has the first difference, the combo colors becomer a bit darker and the spacing increased a tinny bit,
3. 00:18:856 (1,2,1) - the vocals and instruments has the first spike the introduce of the big jumps 2,80 1/2 slider jumps, the player already know that the map will increase intensity suddenly with the song feelings.

part 3

1. 00:19:756 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - vocals become stronger and there are a few added instruments, the spacing become bigger adding some 1/2 jumps, around 2.0
2. the player already notice what the combo colors means, since they were introduce during the first 20 seconds
3. 00:27:856 (1,2,3,4) - drums become stronger than anything before, dark color means jump/fast slider, instead of the previous 2,0 spacing it does changes to 3,30
4. 00:28:456 (1,2,3,4) - the intensity of the beats is higher than anything else, the hot pink color warms the player that the song is going to have a big change and does the map, the jumps increase to 4,5 aprox

part 4

1. 00:29:506 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - the music becomes more intense than the previous section, so does the map and the combo colors. We can see the jumps becoming 2,70 and 3,0 aprox
2. 00:37:456 (1,2,3,4) - 4 constant drums were 3 and 4 are a repetition from 1 and 2, combo colors changes jumps become bigger, the player already know how the combo color hax work and also know how the song spikes work.
3. 00:38:056 (1,2) - vocals and music increase so does the spacing and the SV

part 5

1. 00:38:656 (1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - The music and vocals get stable again, so does the combo colors and patterns
2. 00:41:656 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - drums slowly start to become 1/2 constant, the 2 groups of 3 sliders introduce the players to the rhythm
3. 00:43:456 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - the drums become stronger and 1/2 constant, combo colors reflect what is happening in the song again, they are divided and vocals parts and instrument only parts, the instrument only parts having less spacing than the vocal ones, the bigger jump is 4,0 that's fine accordinlg to the previous ones

part 6

1. 00:47:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - kiai, I'd expain this completely as irre and mao complained about it
2. 00:49:306 (1,2) - 1/4 jumps, in my book high spacing don't play well after a 3/4 sliders, specially at this sv, so I always have the 1/4 spacing short, also I got feedback from Cxu about the sv not being that fast for it.
3. 00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the signature of my maps, the climax of the lyrics, higher expresion of the vocals, higher expresion in the video, the girls start the fast dance here, the song feelings are in this part, that's why is the only part in my map that doesn't have a simple pattern and also has the higher emphasis of the song.
   The first 6 beats are divided in pairs, being the first one the white tick stronger than the red tick, back and forth patterns does makes the most sense for these beats, the it comes to my mind an horizontal pattern would fit the best and would stress the best this unique part of the song, then I notice 7 has a strong drum on it and the one at 8 is stronger than 7, the vocals lyrics have a deep meaning the video show it as the climax of the song, 7 should be bigger than the back and forth, a ideal placement for the player muscle memory would be an horizontal one, 7 need to be place in the same pattern but with bigger spacing, 8 is stronger so it need a higher spacing and this is how, the song, video lyrics make me put my climax on it.
   
   Explain beat by beat: p/5998172
   
   Explain why the spacing in the editor doesn't feels like the spacing in the gameplay: p/5998426
   
   Video of the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zihoyz0u_cs you can see the energy the video gets at this part of the lyrics and also the energy it gets at every spike in my diff and at every time my combo colors become darkers
   
   Chase me if you can, it was close enough dangerous~, the guy is basically trying to get her, the back and forth jumps gets the representation of the guy trying to get her, the chase is getting faster and faster, do doest my patterns lyrics, instruments and video.
   
   In the end when I listen to this song, this is the part were my heart starts to beat faster and i feels is were the vocalist puts their soul, this last may sound super sybjective, but any personal representation of the song is.
   
4. The reason why the 3/4 and circle doesn't become bigger is for pure playability as in my book 00:56:506 (1,2) - higher spacing on them does lead to combo breaks and uncomfortable movements.
   
5. 00:52:306 (1,2,3) - 00:55:006 (2,3,4) - etc the spacing stay bigger enough, but not bigger as the climax pattern, because I don't feel this parts bring me the same feeling at hearing them
   
6. 01:00:106 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the guy literally wake up from the nightmare, the vocals again get that strong feeling on me, vocals drums gets on the constant 1/2 once again, this part should be the climax of the second kiai, i had this on my mind the whole time while mapping this, the guy isn't chasing the girl anymore as in 00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -, but he notice that it was not real, was a nightmare, then he wake up in the middle of night super scary, that feelings in the video, music, instrument getting constant are the ones that make me put another spike here.
   
7. 01:06:556 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - basically same feeling as the other jumps spikes, you can't catch me anymore, I'll hide in another place, again the video has a special moment, the instruments get constant, the vocals also get constant, my mind also get the same feeling as the other two sections

part 7

1. 01:12:256 (1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,1) - repetition of part 2

part 8

1. 01:22:156 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - different part of the vocals still not that fast, but not slow
2. 01:26:356 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - there is some build up, the song is getting stronger, so does the star patterns, they do reflect the song nicely
3. 01:30:256 (1,1,1,1) - vocals do a fun thing, so does the sliders

part 9

1. 01:31:456 (1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - repetition of part 4

part 10

1. 01:41:056 (1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - repetition of part 5

part 11

1. 01:49:456 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - repetition of part 6

part 12

1. 02:09:856 (1,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2) - this part become stable, not strong, but also not weak, spacing stay on its limits

part 13

1. 02:19:456 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,1) - same as above
2. 02:27:706 (1,2,1,1,1) - the song have another spike, combo colors, sv changes

part 14

1. 02:29:056 (1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - stable rhythm
2. 02:33:856 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6) - drums are going for the higher to the lowest, that explain the spacing going from the higher to the lower
3. 02:36:406 (1,1,2,1,1,1) - vocals going from the higher to the lower, sv reflect it in the map
4. 02:38:656 (1,2) - another spike in the song, the sv and combo color reflect what is going on in the song.

part 15

1. 02:47:056 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2) - same as the other kiai parts.

part 16

1. 02:58:306 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1) - constant 1/2 rhythm with jumpy patterns as the song suggest, sliders were used for the chase me vocals

My map isn't randomly builded:

1. symmetry
2. clean patterns
3. diff spikes for everytime that the song, video and lyrics have it
4. consistency, look at the bookmark of the maps, check the sections to the other similar ones, the map has consistency.
5. Combo colors does reflect the intensity of the song and patterns
6. I analized the song, instruments, lyrics and video, so I can proudly said that this is my interpretation of the song beat by beat, combo by combo, section by section

Okay I did my best to explain how the map works, what logic I did follow to build my maps, why does the map have spikes, why the combo colors, the sv changes, patterns etc.

I love this song and I did my best to put my true interpretation of the song in my map, I hope you guys can understand it too and not just trying to make me change something, because u don't like it or you have a different interpretation.

my map represents the story behind the song, this song has a story going on, i analized the video, lyric songs to make my map reflect all of that, that's why it has spikes instead of constant diff.

Essentially what Natsu does is scaling similar patterns from difficulty to difficulty throughout the set. In the context of a single difficulty it might appear sort of overdone, but it does work and the spread progression makes the whole thing perfect in my eyes.

It's designed to be exceptionally hard with the song in mind. It works though it is something that may appear too wild at times.

I've read the whole explanation now and honestly? Most of these arguments just seem to be taken that far away, it makes less and less sense the more you try to explain yourself. Let me elaborate, but first, I'd like to state the problem again:

00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Patterns like these spike that much (and again: they spike THAT much, this means, that it is allowed to spike because there obviously is a change in the song, but not such a heavy one that this is justified), so it's not justified with the song. Having a fullscreen jump which is not justified properly by an exceptionally powerful beat or vocal does not make sense here. 01:00:106 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Same goes with this, and other instances.

Natsu wrote:

part 6

1. 00:47:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - kiai, I'd expain this completely as irre and mao complained about it
2. 00:49:306 (1,2) - 1/4 jumps, in my book high spacing don't play well after a 3/4 sliders, specially at this sv, so I always have the 1/4 spacing short, also I got feedback from Cxu about the sv not being that fast for it. Well, honestly, I wouldn't even know why you'd make this bigger anyway..
3. 00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the signature of my maps I'm afraid, but using "the signature of my maps" as a justification as to why this jump in particular is okay is not valid. I would like to state one thing again: Just because it's consistent, it does not mean it is good, or fitting. Saying this does make little sense to me anyway - does that mean you map every song the same? the climax of the lyrics Well, why not, could be a nice addition if the rest was justified, higher expresion of the vocals This is partially true, the vocals are different here - but not that intense that they'd justify such a high spacing. Given the setting of the rest of the map they simply don't fit in the concept. , higher expression in the video The girls dance, the background is flashing, the camera is moving around, what exactly makes this part different to the rest of the kiai? I'm afraid, but imo it's just a simple concept here , the girls start the fast dance here This is where I took my first sentence from.
   If you watch the video, the girls are simply moving their arm from the right to the left, even in a slow motion? Excuse me, but even the part before thatt (where they are crossing their arms in an / \ shape is more intense, the song feelings are in this part, that's why is the only part in my map that doesn't have a simple pattern and also has the higher emphasis of the song

To take things a bit further. 00:47:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - If you compare this to 00:43:456 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - this once, in my opinion, the first pattern is meant to be way more excessive following your logic. I think that the second pair of drums is WAY more intense, and this can easily be heard. On top of that, the drums which you emphasized a crapton out of are actually quite subtle, and additionally, the vocals are almost not existent, they are even somehow fading.

I'm trying to follow your logic, but you are giving me a really hard time to make this possible.

In a mappers mind their map is always perfect.

Modding is about:

1 point a problem
2 give a solution

you're clearing failing at the second step, suggest me something that can work better there and I'll consider it, if you keep only saying is too big vocals aren't only left you aren't helping at all.

TBH I'm the one having a hard time, explaining my map during hours, giving solid arguments, getting suppport from the community etc and let's be honest you guys don't suggest anything for solve 'the issue', that I believe doesn't exist and many others also think that this is more about forcing your opinions rather than bring solutions.

0 post by the QATs suggest alternative patterns, if you don't suggest, then ofc I'd be keeping mine.

You are once again completely avoiding the problem, and with that statement I heavily disagree as well. Are we the ones who have to remap your map?

The thing with this is that the solution to most of the points is implied by the problem descriptions themselves, no one was telling you to get rid of the defining pattern in this map to begin with you just chose to read it as such. There's multiple ways of handling this sort of thing and obviously if you do understand the problem either of the solutions that work without decreasing the quality of the map is fine with us.

But once again: Scaling the jumps down simply won't probably solve the problem, since then other things might get out of balance again. But it's up to you how you want to fix that. As you might have seen with your own fix, people weren't really happy with the generic fix you've offered, which is understandable. But I am pretty sure you are smart enough to find another solution while keeping your idea in mind, and I'll repeat this 300 times more if needed.

so irre

1. downscaling the pattern don't work, because the map become unbalanced??? wasn't you saying this pattern make the map unbalanced in first place
2. changing the pattern also don't work
3. what do you want then??

Yes it's my map and I think it work perfectly,

suggest something, that's what modding is about, if you don't suggest a pattern then objectively my arguments are stronger than yours

We're clearly stuck at the very first stage of discussing and agreeing there is a problem.

After taking to the mapper I can confirm that they genuinely don't see anything wrong with the intensity and this is the way they perceive things. Personally, just as the majority of people who have previously posted in the thread I feel like the patterning Natsu uses can work.

What I suggest is giving the map a chance and qualifying it to receive more feedback and see scores live, as well as get more opinions flowing.

The whole point is to keep things transparent and community driven and in this case community does not get a chance to speak up in a way that would influence the way things run.

correct me if I'm wrong but I just don't understand the problem here. you're saying the map spikes too much Irre, but there's plenty of people here saying the pattern isn't actually as hard as it looks.. which means in reality it doesn't spike all that much? just seems kinda weird to me, I feel like it represents the song properly. Though what Natsu could maybe do is increase the spacing in the rest of the kiai? The song supports it and the pattern would make more sense to you then maybe?

Irreversible wrote:

You are once again completely avoiding the problem, and with that statement I heavily disagree as well. Are we the ones who have to remap your map?

The thing with this is that the solution to most of the points is implied by the problem descriptions themselves, no one was telling you to get rid of the defining pattern in this map to begin with you just chose to read it as such. There's multiple ways of handling this sort of thing and obviously if you do understand the problem either of the solutions that work without decreasing the quality of the map is fine with us.

But once again: Scaling the jumps down simply won't probably solve the problem, since then other things might get out of balance again. But it's up to you how you want to fix that. As you might have seen with your own fix, people weren't really happy with the generic fix you've offered, which is understandable. But I am pretty sure you are smart enough to find another solution while keeping your idea in mind, and I'll repeat this 300 times more if needed.

No, you're not the ones to remap the map, you're here to help the mapper. I thought QATs also needed to follow the code of conduct?


Your arguments essentially boil down to "I think". That's not fact, that's your own subjective opinion and interpretation of the song. The map is consistent with its own logic and interpretation. Thus your subjective opinion is not in any way more valid than Natsu's.

Btw, people dislike the fix not because it's necessarily bad, it's because it removes essentially what the defining part of the map is. Unless you can offer a better way to incorporate that pattern and anything else you disagree with into the map (which must exist, since you keep demanding the mapper to do this, right? That is, unless you deliberately want the map to decrease in quality), there is no reason for the mapper to believe that their own choice isn't the best way to map said pattern, especially if they have their own logic behind the map. Repeating your argument isn't going to make your argument stronger.

Oh and since we're at it. Want to explain the "exponential" spike at 00:48:710 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - , or the difference between 00:54:749 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - and 00:57:865 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - in your Kawabunga map? I'm not trying to use your map as justification for this map; if you do have a suggestion that will improve the map in the direction you wish to, and still fits with the idea and style of the current map, then sure by all means go for it. This is just to show you your own hypocrisy in this. If you expect others to conform to your exact view of what is adequate spiking in the song and what isn't, then you should at least practice what you preach.

mmm @Mao you told me to get more opinions and open more discussion, isn't enough already? I mean the qualify category was there to point stuff, but also to know the comunity opinion about the map.

If you check the code of conduct it saids:

Intersubjective Issues - Not prohibited by rulesets, but are agreed upon as being “wrong” by a majority of people. Should be fixed in most cases unless there are opposing intersubjective arguments with equal size, or if the mapper can exhaustively explain why they feel it is acceptable

being wrong by a majorite of people, but in my case the majorite think my map is fine

or if the mapper can exhaustively explain why they feel it is acceptable, I already did this as well

Wait, are you implying that we should judge the quality of our maps by a group in which the majority has never opened the editor before, and the supermajority hasn't completed a single map?

Mun wrote:

Wait, are you implying that we should judge the quality of our maps by a group in which the majority has never opened the editor before, and the supermajority hasn't completed a single map?

well the people who posted here are top players from top 50 which knows how the map plays or even old bats. So no, there are not random people who never opened the editor before

Mun wrote:

Wait, are you implying that we should judge the quality of our maps by a group in which the majority has never opened the editor before, and the supermajority hasn't completed a single map?

Your map is "fine" in the sense of: "Oh i am so going to watch Cookiezi get a shitload of PP from a HDHR score on this, the map is so perfect"

You're a crowdpleaser and you know it, stop beating around the bush.

Mun wrote:

Wait, are you implying that we should judge the quality of our maps by a group in which the majority has never opened the editor before, and the supermajority hasn't completed a single map?

Being good at only mapping means you don't get the nuances from playing.
Being good at only playing means you don't get the nuances of mapping.

That's why you need both kinds of people. And no, being good at both doesn't necessarily mean you're right either. You're most likely better at one or the other, and thus have a harder time seeing it from the other perspective.

vipto wrote:

Mun wrote:

Wait, are you implying that we should judge the quality of our maps by a group in which the majority has never opened the editor before, and the supermajority hasn't completed a single map?

Your map is "fine" in the sense of: "Oh i am so going to watch Cookiezi get a shitload of PP from a HDHR score on this, the map is so perfect"

You're a crowdpleaser and you know it, stop beating around the bush.

Hey, nice contribution, but I'm sure you can spend your time more constructively than posting crap in a map thread on osu!

Natsu, I think you're missing the point here.

The discussion is about how you're justifying the spacing, not the way it plays or how it feels to a player. No one has really implied they play poorly, they play fine and that's obvious to see. What the real issue is is that you're merging layers and not following one specific instrument/rhythm. You're following multiple in one pattern, which means you aren't properly representing the song. In order to make this a "rhythm game" you must select a rhythm to begin with, not trying to map them all via a dump-chart style. On top of that, you're suddenly giving those noises extreme intensity when in reality they're only more dense than previous notes, not more intense.



Overall, if you look at this, your first 5 notes are constantly changing instrument, which isn't okay. Your final 3 are finally following the same instrument. The best way to fix this is to decide which one you ARE prioritizing and which one you AREN'T. You can't really have it both ways, IMO.

Also how did this get buffed?

QATs change their argument everytime, first was the pattern, secondly the spacing now the rhythm?

1 any map merges rhythms, it's imposible to map standard without merging them, vocals and drum are mixed as any other map. If there is a cymbal even if mappers are following vocals or anything else they will map it, that's why every osu map is mapped as 1/2 spam and 1/1s, that's why vocals maps has streams mapped to drums etc, any mapper take advantage of what the song offer, merging layers is ok, if not please DQ every map in qualify now, because every one is merging layers as well.

Took me 10 secs in your own set to find a merged layer 00:10:446 (1,2,3) - https://osu.ppy.sh/s/560572 just posting this as example on how much you guys are making me to change things that your own maps don't follow

2 Do you guys read? people here are basically saying that the pattern don't play hard as it looks, which means the pattern don't spike as you think, also if you took the time to read people arguments about it you'll see that people are basically posting that the pattern does fit the song.

3 Modding is about pointing a problem and giving a solution

4 what do u suggest?

5 buffed? it was 7,30 and now 7,17, I already nerfed a lot of things.

Natsu wrote:

QATs change their argument everytime, first was the pattern, secondly the spacing now the rhythm?
This was my first post in this thread. This is my opinion.

1 any map merges rhythms, it's imposible to map standard without merging them, vocals and drum are mixed as any other map. If there is a cymbal even if mappers are following vocals or anything else they will map it, that's why every osu map is mapped as 1/2 spam and 1/1s, that's why vocals maps has streams mapped to drums etc, any mapper take advantage of what the song offer, merging layers is ok, if not please DQ every map in qualify now, because every one is merging layers as well.
You're over-generalizing to make every map sound like it's an anime TV size map. A lot of maps use 1/1, 1/2, 3/4, etc. It's not just 1/2 spam because theres a vocal then a drum every other hit. In order to map a song as constant jumps either the vocals or the drums need to support it, but merging both is just poor mapping, regardless of how many others do it. Besides, other maps aren't a proper justification for another map, that's basic BN logic.

2 Do you guys read? people here are basically saying that the pattern don't play hard as it looks, which means the pattern don't spike as you think, also if you took the time to read people arguments about it you'll see that people are basically posting that the pattern does fit the song.
Those thing's aren't necessarily correlated. It's not about the diff-spike, it's about how you follow the music and the way in which you represent it. I could care less about the spike in SR, what I care about is how the spacing is so much larger than similar intense sounds and the sections are more dense when in reality its a conglomeration of a bunch of sounds with no actual rhythm. Also, I've been reading this since the start, yes. I believe it's you who isn't reading?

3 Modding is about pointing a problem and giving a solution
Sure, but sometimes its hard to provide a solution if the mapper won't agree on a problem to hone in on.

4 what do u suggest?
Well, deleting the top diff is a waste of everyone's time and no one would want to do that, since players like it and all as well, why don't you reevaluate the concept of the top diff and what you hope to accomplish? Figure out what instrument you want to represent in those jumps and prioritize those notes while making the spacing more relative to the density spike (since the intensity "spike" is nonexistant).

5 buffed? it was 7,30 and now 7,17, I already nerfed a lot of things.
My bad, the version I had was 7.1 originally, which I think was the qualified version? Who knows.

Also why did you not respond to the image? You made it and in my opinion, it's the most damning part of this map's design.

Natsu wrote:

Took me 10 secs in your own set to find a merged layer 00:10:446 (1,2,3) - https://osu.ppy.sh/s/560572 just posting this as example on how much you guys are making me to change things that your own maps don't follow

EDIT: Since you used my paradisus-paradoxum top diff as an example-edit while I was writing this post, I get that you misunderstood me now. What I mean by merging is combining two different musical instruments at different times. For example, in the image you made that I linked, you constantly switch between drums and vocals, thats what I meant by merging. Also once again, other maps have no relevancy in this, especially maps that haven't been modded, bubbled, or qualified.

Cryptic wrote:

Natsu wrote:

QATs change their argument everytime, first was the pattern, secondly the spacing now the rhythm?
This was my first post in this thread. This is my opinion.

1 any map merges rhythms, it's imposible to map standard without merging them, vocals and drum are mixed as any other map. If there is a cymbal even if mappers are following vocals or anything else they will map it, that's why every osu map is mapped as 1/2 spam and 1/1s, that's why vocals maps has streams mapped to drums etc, any mapper take advantage of what the song offer, merging layers is ok, if not please DQ every map in qualify now, because every one is merging layers as well.
You're over-generalizing to make every map sound like it's an anime TV size map. A lot of maps use 1/1, 1/2, 3/4, etc. It's not just 1/2 spam because theres a vocal then a drum every other hit. In order to map a song as constant jumps either the vocals or the drums need to support it, but merging both is just poor mapping, regardless of how many others do it. Besides, other maps aren't a proper justification for another map, that's basic BN logic.
what does tv sizes has to do with rhythms? a song is a song doesn't matter what-
Posting your map merging layers is an example on how the people complaining about something do the same as their own maps, I can post how fycho's haitai uses screenjumps without any logic, Irre's 8 stars map do the same, etc. It's just to show how you guys aren't able to understand my logic and map concept when you do similar stuff in your own maps
2 Do you guys read? people here are basically saying that the pattern don't play hard as it looks, which means the pattern don't spike as you think, also if you took the time to read people arguments about it you'll see that people are basically posting that the pattern does fit the song.
Those thing's aren't necessarily correlated. It's not about the diff-spike, it's about how you follow the music and the way in which you represent it. I could care less about the spike in SR, what I care about is how the spacing is so much larger than similar intense sounds and the sections are more dense when in reality its a conglomeration of a bunch of sounds with no actual rhythm. Also, I've been reading this since the start, yes. I believe it's you who isn't reading? I guess you actually don't understand that the visual spacing isn't how the pattern plays, which equals difficulty? is the same as adding a 2,0 SV to a sper curved slider, the speed wouldn't be what the numbers shows? my pattern basically do a repeated movement that develop a muscle memory to the player, so when he is playing that pattern doesn't feels like a huge jump, that's what the top players who posted confirmed

3 Modding is about pointing a problem and giving a solution
Sure, but sometimes its hard to provide a solution if the mapper won't agree on a problem to hone in on. how a mapper can agree that their pattern is bad if the modder doesn't show what would work better? that's the modder problem not the mapper, a mapper always try to put the best pattern on their map, as I did, unless you suggest something better, I can't come with someting better, because I believe my pattern is the best representation of the song already

4 what do u suggest?
Well, deleting the top diff is a waste of everyone's time and no one would want to do that, since players like it and all as well, why don't you reevaluate the concept of the top diff and what you hope to accomplish? Figure out what instrument you want to represent in those jumps and prioritize those notes while making the spacing more relative to the density spike (since the intensity "spike" is nonexistant). do you even are talking about deleting a diff, with all the people supporting it here? also the concept of the diff is symmetry, basic patterns, vocals and drums, is a basic mapping in a 200 bpm song, is not differet from any other of my 52 maps or 140 ranked GD, you guys have according to the code of conduct to post an alternative pattern, or the code doesn't apply to qats?

5 buffed? it was 7,30 and now 7,17, I already nerfed a lot of things.
My bad, the version I had was 7.1 originally, which I think was the qualified version? Who knows. ah if you're talking about the ,6 idk, I changed the mp3 to fit the video I added and it randomly increases, I literally changed the mp3, added the video and adjusted the offset

Also why did you not respond to the image? You made it and in my opinion, it's the most damning part of this map's design.

Ok I'll do something so you can understand me, since you're doing exactly the same at your map:

1 Go to your map first, open your top diff https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1185396

2 check your rhythm (the ones you're merging layers on) 00:20:446 (1,2,1,2,1,2) -

3 Go to my map check 00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -

Now you notice is the same logic, divide it like this if you want (add the ncs):



also did you notice that every object has vocals, without 2 which is a strong cymbal that needs a click'able object and 8 that is a clap sound, in 8 the player already played 6 and 7 and switched their mind to drums.

perhaps adding a combo spam every two objects (as you) would solve the problem?

also adding that I'm using your own maps, not for *if you do me too*, but to make u guys understand my map, with similar rhythm and patterns in your own maps.

Natsu wrote:

First to all don't justify your maps with other ranked maps, we are talking about YOUR map not others, mistakes has been done i past and can't be changed, we are talking at this specific case.

when did u change natsu?

Since I notice that explaining things doesn't work, so maybe explaining things using their own maps can work and as I said I'm not trying to justify in, but to explain it at multiple ways, comparing similar ideas of 1 person map to other is prob the best way of mutual understanding. Btw Mao told me he is going to post something hopefully a suggestion or compromise .

Cryptic wrote:

Natsu, I think you're missing the point here.

The discussion is about how you're justifying the spacing, not the way it plays or how it feels to a player. No one has really implied they play poorly, they play fine and that's obvious to see. What the real issue is is that you're merging layers and not following one specific instrument/rhythm. You're following multiple in one pattern, which means you aren't properly representing the song. In order to make this a "rhythm game" you must select a rhythm to begin with, not trying to map them all via a dump-chart style. On top of that, you're suddenly giving those noises extreme intensity when in reality they're only more dense than previous notes, not more intense.



Overall, if you look at this, your first 5 notes are constantly changing instrument, which isn't okay. Your final 3 are finally following the same instrument. The best way to fix this is to decide which one you ARE prioritizing and which one you AREN'T. You can't really have it both ways, IMO.

Also how did this get buffed?

Are you seriously saying this is an issue right now?

I'd like to submit dequalification requests for the following maps for the following reasons:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1267222 | 00:24:627 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - (5,7,9) suddenly switches to following the drum only even though the combo itself is following the vocals as indicated by the usage of whistle hitsounds.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/324828 | 00:21:552 (1,2,1,2,1) - Spacing of 00:21:885 (1,2) - increases due to piano, but 00:21:552 (1,2) - is following drums. Back and Forth pattern can be seen as a single pattern, because adding an NC doesn't change the arrangement of notes.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/586841 | 00:51:766 (1,2,3,4) - (1) is following the vocal with the sliderbody as there is a drum at 00:51:877 - that would be mapped if the slider was mapping according to the drums. (3) however is mapped to the drum, but the sliderbody is still used to indicate a held vocal. (4) follows drum again.


I could keep going but you get the point. Merging different layers of a song into 2D space is exactly what you do when mapping. If you don't, the resulting mapping turns into what most 2008-2009 maps do, such as strictly following the vocals, or the drums. Unless you believe those maps are of higher quality than virtually every map mapped today, what you're pointing out is a complete non-issue and is trying to force issues onto a pattern that, frankly, doesn't seem to have any real problems. It's not hard to find arbitrary reasons to any pattern for why it may or may not fit with the music according to ones own subjective view. Just to use that last map as an example (https://osu.ppy.sh/s/586841) I could say the slider velocity in the kiai at 00:50:877 - is too high, because I think that section isn't that much stronger than what comes before it. Or maybe I could say the slider velocity at 00:53:544 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - should be higher than the rest of the kiai to better following the blow-instrument (whatever that one is). The difference between this and what the QAT is doing here is that what I'm saying is a subjective opinion about how I might've mapped that particular song, while you're all using your subjective opinion as objective fact.

On your point about "how it plays" and "how it feels" to a player. Do you really think a pattern plays well, if there is a disconnect between the pattern played and the song it's following? It doesn't. When we talk about a pattern playing well and that it fits the song, we don't mean just the pattern in isolation, but also how it relates to the rest of the map. I don't see why you think only mappers/QATs can see the pattern in relation to the whole map?

Also, let's take a look through what the QATs have said about the pattern and the map:

Irreversible wrote:

Hey Natsu, sorry to be a party pooper but I'd like to talk about these jumps again, and refer to our conversation we had.

00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Her voice is just not that spiking here, and it's really not anywhere else. The song is pretty stable, like I've explained you, so I really think that these jumps are very unjustified.

A good fix you've made was 01:02:719 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - this part. I think the progressive increase is well executed. But as for the rest, I really think you'd need to rework those. You should look at P A N's parts, as I told you, I think he did a good job in catching the emphasis properly there.

I've adjusted some things, and the SR will drop a bit but it's still definitely in the proper range this map is supposed to be - in case you care about SR (which you should not in this case)

"You should look at P A N's parts, as I told you, I think he did a good job in catching the emphasis properly there."

Let's do that, then:
01:52:906 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - (1,2,3,4,5) - Constant spacing until it visibly increases at (6,7,8,1)

Now let's take a look at what Natsu's pattern does:
00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - (1,2,3,4,5) - Constant spacing until it visibly increases at (6,7,8,1)

Oh wait, they follow the exact same logic.

Mao wrote:

Hey Natsu,

I'm disqualifying this because I think the issues Irreversible mentioned are valid and need to be adressed. As you have told me already that you are willing to change it, it might be nice to discuss different approaches within this thread as well.

Moreover personally I think the overall concept of the map is broken, not only the pattern Irre linked. Generally many jumps don't emphasize anything or go well with the music. Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - . In my opionion you'll have to change your jump placement concepts drastically in order to fix these issues.

Anyways, I'd like to have some more discussion going on here before we proceed. For further assistance, feel free to PM us! Good luck for now /o/

At this point, Irre's issues are already addressed above. Now the issues addressed in Mao's post:

"Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) -"

01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - Drums get more intense, so they get more emphasis. Same thing happens in the Collab, and as far as I know you would prefer to delete the whole difficulty and have the collab be the highest one.

02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - Nice feeling, I feel that they aren't. Why are your feelings more valid than mine? But hey, I'm sure if you showed what you meant properly and actually showed what would be proper organization of these notes (doesn't need to be more than 3-4 notes in some neat arrangement), that still follows the general spacing emphasis of this section, that Natsu would be willing to change this.


Next is Okorin who's points I address at p/6004860

Next is Irre's post at p/6006437

Firstly, spacing emphasis is not exponential. It depends on the pattern and its surrounding patterns and notes. It's not as black and white as "big jump must be 10 times more intense".

Secondly, right below (p/6006471) he says that scaling the pattern down is not a solution.

So let's think about this for a second. The problem Irre is pointing out (which btw, is the exact same thing as in P A N's part, except that one is apparently fine), is that the spacing spikes too much compared to the surrounding notes. Why then, would scaling this down in any way not be a solution? The jumps get closer in spacing to the rest of the map, which is exactly what reducing a spike is. While I don't think scaling it down is even necessary, at least be consistent with your own argument.



Now you (and Okorin) talk about density, and how that isn't intensity. Here's an example:

Take a light green square, then take the same square, but make it out of small green dots evenly spread apart. Now, turn the light green suare's color closer to green, and increase the dots in the other square. Notice what's happening? Both colors are getting more intense.



Finally, the point of using other maps as justification:

They are not justification for it being fine, it's justification that it's a non-issue that QATs have had no issue with in the past 10 000 maps, and is suddenly a problem here only because of one persons subjective opinion. Either this is an issue for all maps that this appears in (in which case, go dequalify the majority of standard maps in qualified right now), or you're being selective and hypocritical against this map specifically. You can't be okay with it one place and not okay with it another, because then it's time to question if what you guys are doing is Quality Assurance, or "I like this map, I don't like this map".


Also, I forget who it was, but a previous QAT said that more people agreeing to it doesn't mean it's right or whatever it was. Certainly, someone must believe that to be true for the QATs, otherwise why would you need 4 different QATs all coming to agree with the other QATs, just to make their argument seem stronger?

Everything I wanted to say I think CXu already got it in there.
Also I really think you should be focusing on another maps as much as you focus on this one.

brb grabbing some popcorn

I also find it funny how you justify your patterns with other ppl's opinions

edit: oh and not everyone likes it, at least I don't.

Let me explain the instances I have mentioned here:

01:39:856 (1,2,3,4) - This one is the example I gave for the lack of emphasis. I don't think the pattern fits the music well due to the seemingly random usage of spacing emphasis. Have a look: You have used a rather big jump between 01:39:856 (1,2) - which would be fine as both drums are quite emphasized. But then you have 01:40:156 (3,4) - I barely hear a sound corresponding to that concept on 01:40:156 - yet the jump is much bigger than 01:39:856 (1,2) - . Also then you have got the really strong cymbal and vocal sound on 01:40:456 (1) - which has go fewer spacing than 01:40:156 (3,4) - even though there's less emphasis on 01:40:306 - . My suggestion would be to lower the general spacing, keep the spacing between 1,2 and 3,4 equal as the emphasis doesn't really build up and drastically reduce the jump between 2,3 as 3 lacks a strong sound. Moreover the distance to 4 should be increased for proper emphasis.

02:33:856 - This pattern just seems like there is not really a concept behind it. I mean I get that it increases spacing first because of the drum buildup and then decreases it again because of the slowdown. That's fine so far. On one hand I don't think that it works well seperating the pattern itself at 02:34:756 (1,2) - because the drums still buildup. I get that the split can also be seen as the vocals but here were are again at what Cryptic said:

Ranking Criteria Guideline wrote:

Avoid following multiple layers of the song if it is unclear what rhythm is prioritizing. Players should be able to discern what part of the song is being followed.

This is handeled way better in the Collab as there you have used sliders to seperate it which make it clear what you are doing there but here it's just messy.
Second issue I have with the pattern is the actual design of it. While in the Collab you kept it very simple with geometric shapes, but here I don't really see a logic behind it. Just look at all the notes of the first half together: Click!
You could either see 2,3 and 4,5 as groups of 2 each and 1,6 seperate similar to the design of 01:39:856 (1,2,3,4) - (which wouldn't make much sense musically) or as groups of two for 1,2; 3,4 and 5,6. In the latter case the patterning could at least be polished to be something likethis as a similar pattern to the one you have made in the Collab.

CXu wrote:

I'd like to submit dequalification requests for the following maps for the following reasons:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1267222 | 00:24:627 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - (5,7,9) suddenly switches to following the drum only even though the combo itself is following the vocals as indicated by the usage of whistle hitsounds.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/324828 | 00:21:552 (1,2,1,2,1) - Spacing of 00:21:885 (1,2) - increases due to piano, but 00:21:552 (1,2) - is following drums. Back and Forth pattern can be seen as a single pattern, because adding an NC doesn't change the arrangement of notes.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/586841 | 00:51:766 (1,2,3,4) - (1) is following the vocal with the sliderbody as there is a drum at 00:51:877 - that would be mapped if the slider was mapping according to the drums. (3) however is mapped to the drum, but the sliderbody is still used to indicate a held vocal. (4) follows drum again.

If you really think these maps should be disqualified, there's the Report Thread you should report these in.

Moreover Natsu asked me how to proceed now and there's a pretty simple answer as it seems like we won't reach a consensus now:

BN Rules wrote:

If the community member(s) requesting disqualification cannot reach an agreement with the mapper and you placed the last bubble or heart on a map, you cannot rebubble or requalify it. For osu!taiko, osu!catch, osu!mania, and hybrid sets, you may break these conditions once per map due to the low number of nominators.

i would agree with irre here
00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -

the only thing that really justifies the emphasis is the vocals, but it doesnt really spike that much with the rest of the instruments, and the vocals dont stand out THAT much so that it would require the amount of spacing used here.

especially 00:50:506 (1) - here, this seems really overdone imo
also back and forth jumps arent exactly the best fit here imo..

@Mao, I don't actually think they should be disqualified, because I don't think it's an issue in those maps, nor in this one, which is why I posted it here instead. If Cryptic really believes what he wrote though, then those 3 maps (and probably every qualified standard map right now) should be disqualified for the reason he posted. That's all.

Anyhow, I really appreciate the more in-depth explanations you write and possible suggestions to fixing said problem. This way there is actual substance to discuss about, such as what the suggestions improve, if something is lost from the old pattern, if it's possible to incorporate both ideas together etc. instead of forcing the mapper to fumble in the dark until they at some point coincidentally stumble upon a "solution" that the QAT decides is adequate (which is incredibly time-inefficient as well).

I'm sure Natsu has wanted to proceed since forever, but with the amount of QATs chiming in here saying different things without offering a solution, it's not exactly easy to proceed since all you get from them is a big "no" without any further clarification other than repeating the same thing again and again. But yeah, I really think the way people who are designated to specifically help mappers should at least show a willingness to help, which from most responses here doesn't seem to be the case at all, until your post now at least.

@Kibbleru: The way I see and listen to this song and map, is that the vocals are the center part, and the vocal is definitely spiking compared to the vocals of previous points, in terms of intensity due to the rapid singing compared to the rest of the kiai. Again, I don't think it's a problem to prefer a different interpretation either, but what's happening seems more like QATs forcing their interpretation of the song as the correct one, when the interpretation by the mapper is just as correct (as in, it's a subjective opinion on what works best).

Thinking that back and forth jumps isn't the best fit is fine, but that's kind of the same reason as anyone who think they do fit; it's just personal preference.

Mao wrote:

Moreover Natsu asked me how to proceed now and there's a pretty simple answer as it seems like we won't reach a consensus now:

BN Rules wrote:

If the community member(s) requesting disqualification cannot reach an agreement with the mapper and you placed the last bubble or heart on a map, you cannot rebubble or requalify it. For osu!taiko, osu!catch, osu!mania, and hybrid sets, you may break these conditions once per map due to the low number of nominators.

Does that mean that I am free to place a bubble, though?

I'll try to rebalance all the diff and give up my idea of hl the parts i feel the most, brb

Kibbleru wrote:

i would agree with irre here
00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -

the only thing that really justifies the emphasis is the vocals, but it doesnt really spike that much with the rest of the instruments, and the vocals dont stand out THAT much so that it would require the amount of spacing used here.

especially 00:50:506 (1) - here, this seems really overdone imo
also back and forth jumps arent exactly the best fit here imo..

But the vocals keep to the same pitch so that makes sense with back n forth jumps doesn't it?

Bakari wrote:

Does that mean that I am free to place a bubble, though?

If you weren't the original iconers, then yes (I had a chat with Mao in-game about this xd)

Alright, I see. As I disagree with the disqualification and I believe that Natsu's reasoning deserves a right to exist and appearas convincing enough, I would want to give it a try and bubble it.

With that being said, I am clearly not currently able to do so, as there is still a discussion going on. Natsu, can you, please, finalize your decision and stick to some opinion, so we get a clear idea of what you feel is the best solution right now? So, I can have a clear idea whether you still insist on your ideas or following the things you were suggested.

I'm doing some changes and I'll upload both diffs and see what people prefer

Feel free to get back to me once you(you personally and not anybody else) are content with the changes and willing to push the set forward, then.