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Dreamcatcher - Chase Me

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Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

CXu wrote:

Just my 2 cents, but the back and forth horizontal jumps work because the vocals are rapid, short 1/2 length sounds compared to other parts of the kiai which mixes in longer vocal sounds after 1 or 2 shorter ones. Depending on how you interpret music, the rapid vocal part will sound more intense just because the singer is singing faster. As for the pattern itself, you could make whatever kind of pattern really as long as they're fairly sharp-angled due to the syllabic nature of the vocals, so why not horizontal back-and-forths? Since it's repeated motion they might as well just represent the stability of how strong the vocal is. They're not even particularly hard to read anymore either since you got rid of all the overlaps anyway xd.
Once again, I'm not talking about the patterning, this is up to the mapper. Even though I personally think it's not the best way to express them, it's fine, since everyone can interprete it differently. What I don't agree with is the scaling of the jumps, and only that. If you can explain the ratio of it, then that's fine (how big jump 1 is compared to jump 2), but you start with a way exaggerated jump-base-setting imo.

Also, I disagree that she sings "that much" faster there. Vocals like 00:49:069 (1,2) - sound way more stressed than they do in the jump sections. What changes is that the density of the vocals change, but that's a given since the density of vocals also increase.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
They aren't exagerate thbut first pairs have a spacing of 3.0 and the back beat to the next pair is 2,70 which isn't bigger than the rest of the map, the last three beats are stronger objectively talking. I can get more people to backup my pattern as you can too, when there are divided opinions about something the best is to let the mapper keep their interpretation of the song, isn't hard to accept that people has different interpretations of the same song and as you see there are multiple people that think like me, isn't just the case at your 8 star maps where people think it was overdone? But u firmely believe it was right. It's the same in this case I strongly believe these are the stronger and rapid vocals of the song and needs a special pattern to show their unique feeling.
WORSTPOLACKEU
511 posts
Joined May 2013
WORSTPOLACKEU
Imo 01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this pattern is just wrongly situated, I can't understand what you are following there especially when the jumps start a note before the actual section switch. Is it really wise to implement 01:52:969 (1) - in the same jump pattern that you made after? It feels wrong, I asked Rafis to testplay it and he also said it wasn't that comfortable and kinda sudden.

Why not switch 01:52:969 (1,2) - to a extended 1/2 slider like you did 2 notes earlier which would emphasize it well and add a form of introduction before the jumps?

01:51:769 (1,2,3,1,2) - You obviously mapped this for the vocals, why do you change to the jumps when the next vocal is the same as previous? It's just too early to change imo, next section isn't starting yet.

01:00:169 (1,2) - same for these moments.

I feel like overall you're introducing the jumps too early and the result is loss in intuitive gameplay + emphasis for the actual section + some may say quality of the map.

Also this doesn't look straight??? https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/G3IPtd1x
00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Same here, it feels like it could be straight and the distasnce between notes isn't even equal.
Why is it not when it could be, maybe not that important but I think it would improve the quality.

Otherwise p good map, I like it. Writing this cause I smell DQ so maybe you could improve that!
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

Irreversible wrote:

CXu wrote:

Just my 2 cents, but the back and forth horizontal jumps work because the vocals are rapid, short 1/2 length sounds compared to other parts of the kiai which mixes in longer vocal sounds after 1 or 2 shorter ones. Depending on how you interpret music, the rapid vocal part will sound more intense just because the singer is singing faster. As for the pattern itself, you could make whatever kind of pattern really as long as they're fairly sharp-angled due to the syllabic nature of the vocals, so why not horizontal back-and-forths? Since it's repeated motion they might as well just represent the stability of how strong the vocal is. They're not even particularly hard to read anymore either since you got rid of all the overlaps anyway xd.
Once again, I'm not talking about the patterning, this is up to the mapper. Even though I personally think it's not the best way to express them, it's fine, since everyone can interprete it differently. What I don't agree with is the scaling of the jumps, and only that. If you can explain the ratio of it, then that's fine (how big jump 1 is compared to jump 2), but you start with a way exaggerated jump-base-setting imo.

Also, I disagree that she sings "that much" faster there. Vocals like 00:49:069 (1,2) - sound way more stressed than they do in the jump sections. What changes is that the density of the vocals change, but that's a given since the density of vocals also increase.
I'm not trying to speak for Natsu in terms of how he judges the scaling and whatnot, so take it as my opinion on the matter and not what the intentions of the map actually is. If you're talking specifically about 00:51:319 (6,7,8) - , then as long as the purpose is to make these 3 notes stronger due to the extra drum beats, placing (7) as far away as it is makes reading the pattern easier as the previous note has long since faded away. Symmetry also helps with readability. I'd argue that if you're playing maps at this difficulty already anyway, the difference between 1 big jump vs 1 slightly smaller jump on this part is negligible in terms of difficulty, but does make the map itself flow better while playing as you can easier rely on muscle memory to take you from one side of the screen to the symmetrical point on the other side.

Also I never said she sang much faster, she sings faster as in there are more syllables per second or whatever, and thus having rapid singletapping circles works fine. As for the other vocal being more stressed, sure, and it has an appropriate jump and slider which forces the player to hold down the button (you can lightly tap a key to hit a note, but in most cases will hold the key completely down on a slider, making a slider head feel slightly heavier than a single note)

And as a more general note, but variation in spacing to stress notes happens all the time in almost all maps. You might have a note stressed using 1.4x DS in a map, then 2.3x DS when the same note comes up later solely due to what the patterns look like. If they're sufficiently different from the surrounding notes, they still give emphasis.


btw @Natsu you missed a normal sampleset at 02:02:419 (3) -


@worstpolackeu I think that mainly comes from what you're listening to while playing. The vocals start half a beat earlier than the downbeat, which I believe is why the pattern starts "early".
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

Imo 01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this pattern is just wrongly situated, I can't understand what you are following there especially when the jumps start a note before the actual section switch. Is it really wise to implement 01:52:969 (1) - in the same jump pattern that you made after? It feels wrong, I asked Rafis to testplay it and he also said it wasn't that comfortable and kinda sudden. I'm following vocals in all the map that's why the combo start at the actual 1, would be super wrong to start it at the downbeat when I'm focus in the vocals

Why not switch 01:52:969 (1,2) - to a extended 1/2 slider like you did 2 notes earlier which would emphasize it well and add a form of introduction before the jumps? because 2 is a stronger cymbal and would be weird to map it as slider tail

01:51:769 (1,2,3,1,2) - You obviously mapped this for the vocals, why do you change to the jumps when the next vocal is the same as previous? It's just too early to change imo, next section isn't starting yet.vIsn't the same as previously these vocals aren't in 1/2s

01:00:169 (1,2) - same for these moments. yeah the vocals start at 1 not at the downbeat

I feel like overall you're introducing the jumps too early and the result is loss in intuitive gameplay + emphasis for the actual section + some may say quality of the map. jumps are introduced, since 00:18:919 (1,2) - there are already 2,80 jumps in the map at the beggining

Also this doesn't look straight??? https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/G3IPtd1x it looks straigh o.O unless you are extremely nazi
00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Same here, it feels like it could be straight and the distasnce between notes isn't even equal. they are equal,
eacch pair have a 3,0 jump and at back at the next pair is 2,30
Why is it not when it could be, maybe not that important but I think it would improve the quality.

Otherwise p good map, I like it. Writing this cause I smell DQ so maybe you could improve that!
btw take a look at the spacing in all the kiai 02:08:269 (1,2,3) - 00:49:669 (2,3,1) - 00:52:069 (2,3,1,2,3,4) - etc the jumps aren't different in spacin to that specific pattern, just 6,7 and 8 are of a different intensity, 00:51:769 (1,2) - they are 1/4s and I don't think the current SV allow me to have hug 1/4 jumps at all.

If the DQ where to improve the map I'd request it myself, but in this case is to force me to change the part that I love the most in my map and I think I need to defend it as I can.

I'll talk with Irre more and see oif we can get a mutual agreement, I'm up to change stuff, but also I hope you guys can understand my point of view, I can basicaly explain every object in the map and why the spacing of that object is like that, I'm really careful with my maps.

TBH at this point idk if is the pattern that bother people a lot, because the spacing isn't different to other jumps.



I actually don't understad his issue tbh, the spacing isn't different to other parts of the map
Last edited by Natsu , edited 2 times in total.
WORSTPOLACKEU
511 posts
Joined May 2013
WORSTPOLACKEU
I meant this, those are the three notes grouped and they are of inequal distance to each other.
https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/Sv0WkokO
That they are not of equal distance from each other, also I think that if you already make a pattern that is back n forth in a straight line like that you could just do it extremely straight without small differences, so if DQ happens would be nice to change that tbh! Not that much work anyway :D
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

I meant this
https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/Sv0WkokO
That they are not of equal distance from each other, also I think that if you already make a pattern that is back n forth in a straight line like that you could just do it extremely straight without small differences, so if DQ happens would be nice to change that tbh! Not that much work anyway :D
that's a 1 pixel thing pls
WORSTPOLACKEU
511 posts
Joined May 2013
WORSTPOLACKEU

Natsu wrote:

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

I meant this
https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/Sv0WkokO
That they are not of equal distance from each other, also I think that if you already make a pattern that is back n forth in a straight line like that you could just do it extremely straight without small differences, so if DQ happens would be nice to change that tbh! Not that much work anyway :D
that's a 1 pixel thing pls
Yeah it's not a problem I just think personally it should be done straight af, but not a problem play wise or anything ^^
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
Irre this would be better?

a
osu file format v14

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235,195,120019,2,0,P|208:237|213:286,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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447,368,123769,6,0,P|364:361|331:306,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
324,203,124069,1,2,1:0:0:0:
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132,308,124519,69,0,1:0:0:0:
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257,376,124819,2,0,L|236:278,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
127,86,125119,6,0,P|194:111|246:48,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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224,38,126319,6,0,L|246:193,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
246,292,126619,2,0,P|246:238|290:284,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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217,178,127819,2,0,B|101:178|101:178|131:148,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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213,203,131119,2,0,P|263:156|330:165,1,139.999995727539,6|0,3:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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258,161,132769,1,0,1:0:0:0:
215,374,132919,2,0,L|228:305,1,69.9999978637696,8|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
272,90,133219,1,2,0:0:0:0:
244,234,133369,1,0,1:0:0:0:
284,21,133519,5,6,3:0:0:0:
284,21,133594,1,2,0:0:0:0:
284,21,133669,2,0,L|271:90,1,69.9999978637696,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
244,234,133969,1,0,1:0:0:0:
44,157,134119,6,0,P|112:127|180:153,1,150,14|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
244,234,134419,2,0,P|312:259|379:230,1,150,6|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
454,173,134719,69,6,1:0:0:0:
454,173,134869,2,0,L|468:255,1,69.9999978637696
360,144,135169,69,2,0:0:0:0:
512,100,135319,1,8,1:0:0:0:
352,116,135469,1,0,1:0:0:0:
454,173,135619,1,2,0:0:0:0:
472,23,135769,1,0,1:0:0:0:
508,232,135919,2,0,P|444:256|384:216,1,139.999995727539,6|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
140,48,136519,5,8,1:0:0:0:
216,108,136669,1,0,0:0:0:0:
296,164,136819,1,0,0:0:0:0:
216,224,136969,1,0,0:0:0:0:
368,128,137119,70,0,P|376:168|364:204,1,69.9999978637696,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
296,316,137419,1,0,0:0:0:0:
296,164,137569,1,0,1:0:0:0:
440,240,137719,1,8,1:0:0:0:
296,316,137869,2,0,L|212:316,1,69.9999978637696,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,244,138169,1,0,1:0:0:0:
168,372,138319,5,6,3:0:0:0:
168,372,138394,1,2,0:0:0:0:
168,372,138469,2,0,L|84:372,1,69.9999978637696,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
296,316,138769,69,0,1:0:0:0:
164,184,138919,2,0,L|192:272,1,69.9999978637696,14|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
248,380,139219,5,2,0:0:0:0:
100,232,139369,1,0,1:0:0:0:
328,192,139519,70,0,L|440:180,1,80,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
256,264,139819,1,0,1:0:0:0:
256,120,139969,2,0,L|244:8,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
184,192,140269,2,0,L|72:204,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
256,264,140569,2,0,L|268:376,1,80,2|6,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
328,192,140869,1,2,0:0:0:0:
184,192,141019,2,0,L|72:204,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
328,192,141319,6,0,L|440:180,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
500,56,141619,1,0,1:0:0:0:
436,256,141769,1,2,0:0:0:0:
308,80,141919,70,0,P|345:68|388:80,1,80,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
256,212,142219,1,0,1:0:0:0:
128,77,142369,2,0,P|166:67|204:80,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
356,192,142669,2,0,P|367:229|358:268,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
153,268,142969,2,0,P|144:229|156:192,1,80,2|6,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
256,132,143269,1,2,0:0:0:0:
191,340,143419,6,0,P|154:351|115:342,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
320,340,143719,2,0,P|357:328|396:337,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
448,180,144019,1,0,1:0:0:0:
484,340,144169,1,2,0:0:0:0:
256,264,144319,69,6,1:0:0:0:
428,252,144469,1,0,0:0:0:0:
168,272,144619,1,0,1:0:0:0:
340,260,144769,1,0,0:0:0:0:
116,340,144919,2,0,P|80:280|116:200,1,160,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
360,192,145369,5,2,0:0:0:0:
168,272,145519,1,6,1:0:0:0:
224,140,145669,1,0,0:0:0:0:
304,332,145819,1,0,1:0:0:0:
360,192,145969,1,0,0:0:0:0:
168,272,146119,2,0,L|76:272,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
260,232,146419,1,0,1:0:0:0:
304,332,146569,1,2,0:0:0:0:
160,192,146719,70,0,P|118:199|76:192,1,80,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
352,192,147019,2,0,P|393:184|436:192,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
256,272,147319,6,0,L|256:104,1,160,6|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
408,28,147769,5,0,1:0:0:0:
105,90,147919,1,14,1:0:0:0:
409,112,148069,6,0,P|421:68|405:24,1,89.9999972534181,2|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
105,90,148369,70,0,P|93:134|113:182,1,100,2|12,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
328,323,148669,6,0,P|367:225|314:133,1,220.000006713867,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
248,323,149119,37,6,1:0:0:0:
248,323,149269,2,0,L|360:323,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
492,324,149569,5,0,1:0:0:0:
388,192,149719,2,0,P|375:229|388:267,1,80,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
484,152,150019,2,0,P|496:114|483:76,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
296,112,150319,1,6,3:0:0:0:
296,112,150469,2,0,B|420:112|420:112|384:92,1,160,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
224,72,150919,70,0,P|212:108|236:164,1,80,14|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
288,312,151219,2,0,P|300:276|276:220,1,80,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
128,272,151519,1,6,1:0:0:0:
128,272,151669,2,0,L|220:272,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
392,272,151969,5,0,1:0:0:0:
320,144,152119,1,8,1:0:0:0:
496,184,152269,2,0,L|416:184,1,80,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
232,272,152569,2,0,L|408:272,1,160,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
160,304,153019,70,0,P|152:260|168:224,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
280,112,153319,1,14,1:0:0:0:
164,228,153469,2,0,L|72:228,1,80,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
232,272,153769,1,8,3:0:0:0:
240,28,153919,37,14,3:0:0:0:
408,224,154069,1,8,3:0:0:0:
104,160,154219,1,8,3:0:0:0:
472,160,154369,1,8,3:0:0:0:
24,196,154519,1,8,3:0:0:0:
316,364,154669,1,8,3:0:0:0:
240,28,154819,69,10,3:0:0:0:
196,308,154969,1,8,3:0:0:0:
472,160,155119,1,8,3:0:0:0:
104,160,155269,1,8,3:0:0:0:
316,364,155419,1,8,3:0:0:0:
240,28,155569,1,8,3:0:0:0:
196,308,155719,5,10,3:0:0:0:
170,64,155869,1,8,3:0:0:0:
392,200,156019,1,8,3:0:0:0:
224,240,156169,1,8,3:0:0:0:
224,240,156244,1,8,3:0:0:0:
224,240,156319,1,8,3:0:0:0:
314,254,156469,22,0,P|336:311|316:363,1,119.999996337891,2|0,3:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
212,328,156919,69,2,0:0:0:0:
212,328,157069,2,0,L|144:328,1,50,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
76,275,157369,6,0,P|84:237|72:200,1,80,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
20,112,157819,70,0,L|60:100,1,29.9999990844727,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
144,84,158119,6,0,P|174:92|204:84,1,60,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
376,28,158719,54,0,P|351:96|383:162,1,150,6|0,3:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
447,223,159019,2,0,P|369:201|393:279,1,200,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
160,208,167119,37,2,0:0:0:0:
352,176,167269,2,0,L|368:272,1,80,8|2,3:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
256,96,167569,1,8,3:0:0:0:
256,294,167719,5,8,3:0:0:0:
256,286,167794,1,8,3:0:0:0:
256,278,167869,1,8,3:0:0:0:
256,270,167944,1,8,3:0:0:0:
256,262,168019,1,8,3:0:0:0:
256,254,168094,1,8,3:0:0:0:
256,246,168169,1,8,3:0:0:0:
256,96,168319,6,0,L|256:268,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
184,328,168619,1,2,0:0:0:0:
360,208,168769,1,8,3:0:0:0:
360,208,168844,1,8,3:0:0:0:
360,208,168919,1,8,1:0:0:0:
156,188,169069,69,2,0:0:0:0:
256,246,169219,1,2,0:0:0:0:
344,64,169369,22,0,L|228:76,1,100,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
134,84,169669,70,0,L|246:74,1,110.000003356934,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
463,52,169969,6,0,L|343:63,1,119.999996337891,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
4,96,170269,70,0,L|133:83,1,129.999994049073,6|8,0:1|1:0,0:0:0:0:
463,52,170569,5,2,1:0:0:0:
144,376,170719,1,4,1:0:0:0:
497,144,170869,1,2,1:0:0:0:
95,288,171019,1,8,1:0:0:0:
482,255,171169,1,2,1:0:0:0:
93,176,171319,1,8,1:0:0:0:
440,343,171469,1,2,1:0:0:0:
123,80,171619,1,8,1:0:0:0:
352,377,171769,70,0,P|288:337|284:261,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
360,293,172069,1,2,1:0:0:0:
156,344,172219,2,0,P|140:292|164:236,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
383,175,172519,5,0,1:0:0:0:
224,296,172669,1,0,1:0:0:0:
452,128,172819,2,0,P|468:180|444:236,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
224,296,173119,70,0,B|96:296|96:296|128:328,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
236,368,173419,2,0,L|212:220,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
192,136,173719,1,0,1:0:0:0:
472,192,173869,5,2,1:0:0:0:
268,152,174019,1,8,1:0:0:0:
468,216,174169,1,0,1:0:0:0:
258,81,174319,70,0,L|280:236,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
300,378,174619,2,0,L|278:229,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
169,210,174919,1,0,1:0:0:0:
343,174,175069,1,0,1:0:0:0:
105,163,175219,5,8,1:0:0:0:
407,221,175369,1,2,1:0:0:0:
62,227,175519,70,0,P|31:156|68:97,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
233,166,175819,2,0,P|162:197|103:160,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
169,118,176119,1,0,1:0:0:0:
204,344,176269,5,0,1:0:0:0:
424,223,176419,1,8,1:0:0:0:
167,198,176569,2,0,L|212:377,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
125,384,176869,1,0,1:0:0:0:
424,223,177019,69,8,1:0:0:0:
146,128,177169,1,0,1:0:0:0:
303,383,177319,1,8,1:0:0:0:
241,35,177469,1,0,1:0:0:0:
31,256,177619,1,8,1:0:0:0:
432,232,177769,1,8,1:0:0:0:
432,232,177844,1,8,1:0:0:0:
432,232,177919,6,0,P|448:156|408:92,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
332,52,178219,1,2,0:0:0:0:
210,209,178369,37,0,1:0:0:0:
102,17,178519,1,14,1:0:0:0:
114,235,178669,1,0,1:0:0:0:
214,109,178819,1,0,0:0:0:0:
58,149,178969,1,0,1:0:0:0:
269,258,179119,5,6,3:0:0:0:
376,140,179269,1,0,0:0:0:0:
144,156,179419,1,0,0:0:0:0:
256,338,179569,1,0,1:0:0:0:
342,37,179719,69,14,1:0:0:0:
368,202,179869,1,0,1:0:0:0:
430,68,180019,1,0,0:0:0:0:
280,97,180169,1,0,0:0:0:0:
419,268,180319,38,0,P|447:190|413:135,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,65,180619,1,2,0:0:0:0:
154,192,180769,37,0,1:0:0:0:
371,202,180919,1,14,1:0:0:0:
210,139,181069,1,0,1:0:0:0:
322,264,181219,1,0,0:0:0:0:
135,114,181369,1,0,1:0:0:0:
401,277,181519,5,6,3:0:0:0:
335,124,181669,1,0,1:0:0:0:
260,228,181819,1,0,0:0:0:0:
452,209,181969,1,0,1:0:0:0:
48,240,182119,5,12,1:0:0:0:
452,209,182269,1,8,1:0:0:0:
28,164,182419,1,8,1:0:0:0:
460,216,182569,1,8,1:0:0:0:
460,216,182644,1,8,1:0:0:0:
460,216,182719,6,0,L|304:208,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
236,204,183019,1,2,1:0:0:0:
409,290,183169,37,0,0:0:0:0:
232,321,183319,1,0,1:0:0:0:
424,377,183469,1,0,0:0:0:0:
377,91,183619,1,6,1:0:0:0:
409,290,183769,1,0,0:0:0:0:
238,186,183919,5,0,1:0:0:0:
398,212,184069,1,0,0:0:0:0:
275,82,184219,1,0,1:0:0:0:
202,295,184369,1,0,0:0:0:0:
512,185,184519,69,6,1:0:0:0:
308,261,184669,1,0,0:0:0:0:
501,269,184819,1,0,1:0:0:0:
332,181,184969,1,0,0:0:0:0:
425,12,185119,38,0,P|459:65|426:142,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
332,181,185419,1,2,1:0:0:0:
504,169,185569,37,0,0:0:0:0:
259,190,185719,1,0,1:0:0:0:
437,218,185869,1,0,0:0:0:0:
200,242,186019,1,0,1:0:0:0:
512,249,186169,1,0,0:0:0:0:
143,296,186319,70,0,P|146:184|258:189,1,250,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:

If posible I'd want to keep my pattern as I explained it at ; p/5998172, if it's a must to change, I can make that compromise ^

2017-05-07 12:22 WORSTPOLACKEU: dude I played that map
2017-05-07 12:23 WORSTPOLACKEU: it's lit af and I have to say that jump pattern I spoke of actually plays well but I didn't think it would do it when it starts like that
2017-05-07 12:24 Natsu: yeah man
2017-05-07 12:24 Natsu: Is just a visual thing that make it loooks WDF, but in the gameplay is fine I talked with many players such as cxu leaf enon etc,
 the spacing doesn't even feels like crossscreen, because of the flow the pattern generates
2017-05-07 13:05 WORSTPOLACKEU: ACTION is playing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1241398 Dreamcatcher - Chase Me [Nightmare]] +Hidden
2017-05-07 13:05 WORSTPOLACKEU: the more I play it the better it gets
2017-05-07 13:05 WORSTPOLACKEU: lol
2017-05-07 13:07 Natsu: yeah I guess is because i put emphasis in the parts I think were stronger, idk man is like your map 1-2 jumps they are super cool

discussed with many players and most of them understand my logic about the pattern, I really want to keep it
Mao
Elite Mapper II
2,963 posts
Joined December 2012
Mao
Hey Natsu,

I'm disqualifying this because I think the issues Irreversible mentioned are valid and need to be adressed. As you have told me already that you are willing to change it, it might be nice to discuss different approaches within this thread as well.

Moreover personally I think the overall concept of the map is broken, not only the pattern Irre linked. Generally many jumps don't emphasize anything or go well with the music. Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - . In my opionion you'll have to change your jump placement concepts drastically in order to fix these issues.

Anyways, I'd like to have some more discussion going on here before we proceed. For further assistance, feel free to PM us! Good luck for now /o/
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu

Mao wrote:

Hey Natsu,

I'm disqualifying this because I think the issues Irreversible mentioned are valid and need to be adressed. As you have told me already that you are willing to change it, it might be nice to discuss different approaches within this thread as well.

Moreover personally I think the overall concept of the map is broken, not only the pattern Irre linked. Generally many jumps don't emphasize anything or go well with the music. Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - . In my opionion you'll have to change your jump placement concepts drastically in order to fix these issues.

Anyways, I'd like to have some more discussion going on here before we proceed. For further assistance, feel free to PM us! Good luck for now /o/
well mao I really love my diff, but I also know that I need to make a compromise, so I'll liste the changes that I made:

00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - nerfed and changed the pattern
01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - same
00:43:519 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - nerfed a bit and changed the patterns
01:45:919 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - *
00:48:319 (1,2) - 01:50:719 (1,2) - consistency
02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6) - nerfed and rebuilded
01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - reorganized
00:37:519 (1,2,3,4) - *
02:02:419 (3) - added normal sample

hope we can make an agreement with this
Voli
811 posts
Joined April 2013
Voli
Hey btw, now it is disqualified either way, wouldn't it be a cool idea to implement some sort of escalation in these patterns? 01:02:719 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - The vocals and background music get stronger and higher pitched every time this section occurs, and right now the slider pairs are all roughly spaced the same. I think it'd be very satisfying to play if you were to implement something like that. Just an idea tho, feel free to do whatever you want with it.
WORSTPOLACKEU
511 posts
Joined May 2013
WORSTPOLACKEU
I somehow feel really sad to see this unranked because of that pattern, both me and Rafis just saw it when he played it and we simultaneously said it's sad that they are gone... this maps signature was imo those particular jumps that were very cool and nice to play.

Really saddening to see them gone just because of some opinions that those jumps do not fit, I dare say there are more people than me and eventually Rafis that really liked those jumps and felt like it was the soul of this map.

A map should not be disqualified when the creator provided an explanaiton that is logical and fits.

Really sad.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
I'm sorry about that too, tbh I got multiple pms of people supporting those jumps (the signature of the map), but even if the comunity support them, I can't do anything, but make a compromise with the QAT in order to rank my map
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Here's the old version in case you want to revert it back and don't have the .osu anymore
https://puu.sh/vKA3x.osu

Also please don't remove the linear back-and-forths, they're the defining parts of the map. And I don't see how making them more generic triangle patterns (if those are found more acceptable anyway) in any way is "better" than the linear ones, since it's more or less the same distance for most of the notes anyway, and if it's about readability; it's a 7* star map, get better at reading.

If it's distance emphasis, you can rearrange it like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8043278

Since we are on the topic of nerfing big jumps, I do think this one is a tad bit too big compared to the mapping surrounding it 00:28:519 (1,2,3,4), and maybe you could reduce it a little like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8043217 or something.


But yeah in any case, I think you should stick to your guns on that particular back-and-forth pattern. There can be objective quality issues and there can be subjective preferences to patterns, and I'd say this one seems to be the latter rather than the former.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
OFC I want to keep my interpretation of the map, since is what makes sense for me, but how to change QATs mind, even Rafis and worstpolak changed their mind about it and ended liked my map, I did my best explaining it at:

Natsu wrote:

I'll explain these jumps as soon as I get in home I'll talk with u at irc again

ok first to all PAN has his way of mappin and I have mine, secondly the SR wouldn't drop if change that pattern, tbh I'd just make a mainstrean star pattern that would not bother anyone.

Ok i'll do my best to explain these patterns



00:50:569 (1) - Is the change of the vocal paragrahp, I did this kind of jumps consistently in the map.

00:50:569 (1,2) - 00:50:869 (3,4) - 00:51:169 (5,6) - these are the back and forth jumps, it's really noticeable that the white ticks are stronger than the reds, hence why I made back and forth jumps.

00:51:319 (6,7,8) - here something special happen the three beats has drums, that's why the spacing increase 6 and 7 are different than the rest and 8 is the higher beat of the pattern.

the pattern looks huge because is horizontal, take a look at the spacing of each pair is 3.0 00:50:569 (1,2) - which isn't high for my overal spacing, compare it to other patterns which aren't stronger than this 00:47:119 (1,2,3,4,5) - 02:21:619 (2,3) - , the spacing is only visually a lie.

It's true that the 3 stronger beats has bigger spacing than the rest, but the music allow me to it, check the big picture of the map and check the overall spacing to judge the big jumps. This is a heavy beat song with slower parts on the kiai, I still don't get how is wrong, while tv sizes of pop songs do the same with a less stronger song.

BTW in my interpretation of the song these parts should be like that and I really have strong feelings about these jumps paatterns, unless I get forced to change them for a random star pattern that doesn't add anything to the map, I'm not changing them. I already talked with many top players and mappers about them, and many agree that they fit the song.


Hope my explain is enough to you, since you know IDC about the SR and I nerfed almost every jump when we IRC'd, I just believe that part contains the stronger vocals in the song, it's just my interpretation.

I tried my best to explain the pattern in IRC to Irre, but we don't maake an agreement with it, the spacing isn't different at other jumps (without 7 and 8 where the instruments changes), I really don't want to change the pattern, unless I'm forced to change my interpretation of the song (which I don't think is good at any case).
I talked a lot with Irre and idk what else I can do to convince him
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy
Can we be a bit more patient, please. I do believe there is a huge misunderstanding happening. I sincerely believe Irreversible (the person whose post is said to be the initial Disqualification reason) and Mao (the disqualifying QAT) should explain things in a more detailed way.


19:52 Bakari: thing is, did Irre or Mao manage to convince you that any of your points were wrong? 
19:52 Natsu: because i map  with full organization and with my iinterpretation in mind, the concept of the diff is good and the rest of diffs has the same concept in jumps and patterns
19:53 Natsu: nop
19:53 Natsu: I just said if is a MUST i'll change, but I prefer my way
19:53 Bakari: so, essentially, you changed things just because you were told to 
19:53 Bakari: and not because you GENUINELY wanted to improve the map? 
19:53 Natsu: yes

First of all, I would really appreciate if you could post the logs, so we all could see clearly what kind of things were discussed and what points were brought up. This kind of things should be kept open to the public, if you expect more opinions to be posted.

Once we see the logs, we all could actually have a meaningful conversation about the map, as this way we could have a better understanding of the concers.
Last edited by riffy , edited 5 times in total.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
I uploaded both versions of my diff, since many people think my original one was better and me too, btw the concept of the diff is the same concept at my other 52 ranked maps and 100 gd, symmetry, clean patterns and vocals rhythm
yesterday I kinda almost give up with my interpretation and map, I was above to remove the diff, but thanks too cxu and bakari I realized that every diff in this map follows the same concept, also I realize that why I need to change my interpretation of the song when I have a lot of support from the community?
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy
I believe that the changes (both pre and post Disqualification ones) should be applied only when the mapper genuinely agrees with them and only when they actually meant to improve the mapset. Which, apparently, was not the case in this situation. The best case scenario is to back to the initial version that was qualified and openly explain things in detail.

In case any of you are willing to have a better idea of the changes made, Natsu has uploaded the older and more recent version to compare. I can also provide the old osz from the pre-qualification period. Link
Syph
848 posts
Joined August 2014
Syph
I personally think Irre and Mao are somewhat overthinking this, the patterns mentioned (especially the back-and-forth pattern as it seems to be the real problem here) are not as hard as they look in the editor, since they flow nicely they aren't that hard to play. Natsu has given a pretty good explanation for it too, so I don't see why it's such a big problem honestly.

Irreversible wrote:

I've adjusted some things, and the SR will drop a bit but it's still definitely in the proper range this map is supposed to be - in case you care about SR (which you should not in this case)
Also want to point out that if there's anyone here caring about the sr, it's Irre.. lol
Dustice
133 posts
Joined March 2011
Dustice
00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - In terms of playability these back and forth jumps are completely reasonable imo.
It doesnt throw me off at all and works well with the rest of the map in terms of flow,
as it has a lot of back and forths in different iterations.
WORSTPOLACKEU
511 posts
Joined May 2013
WORSTPOLACKEU
Just because one or two people do not disagree with the back n forth jumps doesn't mean you should be forced to removed it to those triangle jumps you have right now.. the back n forth was as I said before the most meaningful part in the map which you will remember the map by and as CXu said, they are the defining parts of the map...
If the spacing is the problem you can fix that but I hope certain people will show more understanding towards this.
Rafis
Former osu! Champion: 2017
15 posts
Joined April 2013
Rafis
In my opinion, new triangle jump section makes this map look really generic. I honestly liked it more with back and forths in terms of playability
Skubi
841 posts
Joined December 2013
Skubi

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

Just because one or two people do not disagree with the back n forth jumps doesn't mean you should be forced to removed it to those triangle jumps you have right now.. the back n forth was as I said before the most meaningful part in the map which you will remember the map by and as CXu said, they are the defining parts of the map...
If the spacing is the problem you can fix that but I hope certain people will show more understanding towards this.
I agree, before changes, this map was unique, but now its just.. generic... I think you should consider rollback..
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
I agree that the map has simply lost its flavour now, and I never supported a change towards this way. The map should stay unique, hence why (as I've mentioned 300 times now) certain patterns should stay, but there must be a way found to make them fit to the intensity of the song as well.

Left right? Fine with me. Incredibly high spacing, whereas compared to the rest it just doesn't make that much sense to exaggerate? Not fine with me.

Natsu, that's what I have told you ingame, instead of blindly fixing stuff just so it's "compromised" or "fixed" just doesn't work. I am sure you can keep your ideas while executing them in a way it fits the song better (in this case just a more balanced jump because the song doesn't offer such a spike? it's really not that hard to understand).

About the comment whether something is too difficult to play or not, this is from my point of view irrelevant because even if it doesn't play too hard, that doesn't mean it's simply perfect.

About me caring about SR, no. I agree it was slightly stupid to write but sometimes I do get the feeling that writing such things calms the people down (because certain actions just make me think it was done to push the SR). Apologies if I was assuming something.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
But all the people I asked said the ma does fit the song, the spacing is subjective, let's put an example this map inferno, your 8 star map etc all they have spikes where the mappers subjectively think the spike should be. The spikes of the map are consistent in the parts of the song that I believe they should be, you can say that is subjective, but also your opinion is subjective. If everyone tell me that it doesn't fit the song I'd change it, but as you can see most of the people involved in the discussion do agree with me. So I think if there are people who agree with me it should be fine. Because what opinion matters the more, yours, mine the mapper, the community? I've been almost the full day asking to mappers and they told me that it does fit the song and the spacing is fine, the other important point is you can see that even top players ( the target audience of my map) support the spacing and pattern, so if I the mapper and the target audience believe is fine what's the problem? I think you are focusing much on the SR and the spacing in the editor, cxu already explained it better than me, the first back and forth jumps make the huge ones play naturally, I really hope I can convince you to keep the unique and integrity of the map.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
my 2c

spacing is to a high degree objectively measurable, as in i think the spikes in them weren't organized that well and in ways that don't really reflect music all too well because stuff such as 00:51:469 (7,8,1) - 01:53:869 (7,8,1) - implies a huge spike in intensity comparatively to the rest of the pattern yet the song doesn't do much to support this

how easily the pattern plays wasn't questioned, the question was how much sense the pattern itself makes so saying but it plays well is just dodging the point lol
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu

Okorin wrote:

my 2c

spacing is to a high degree objectively measurable, as in i think the spikes in them weren't organized that well and in ways that don't really reflect music all too well because stuff such as 00:51:469 (7,8,1) - 01:53:869 (7,8,1) - implies a huge spike in intensity comparatively to the rest of the pattern yet the song doesn't do much to support this

how easily the pattern plays wasn't questioned, the question was how much sense the pattern itself makes so saying but it plays well is just dodging the point lol
I questioned the players about the spacing and if does fit the song, their response was that it does fit the song and also they told me that the spacing doesn't even feels high in the actual gameplay.

I'm the one who hear this song the most, so in my understand these both sections are the ones that have the more emphasis in the song, the song is a 200 bpm poprock song, things like haitai has the same jumps with less emphasis.

So what I want to know is, if I have the support from the most part of the comunity (the target audience of the map) and my strong opinion about them, what I should do in order to rank my map, I meant I already explained here: p/5998172 why these jumps should be bigger, in short 1,2,3,4,5,6 are the back and forth jumps that have 3,0 spacing (we can see that spacing everywhere in the map), 7 and 8 are stronger than these beats (on my end) that's why they have bigger spacing and 1 is the next pattern that does have a stronger sound than the other ones.

Cxu explained here: p/5998426 why they don't even feels that big, wostpolak, rafis, dustice, enon, leaf etc also agreed with it

also don't said objectvely, because is not, the spacing you use in any map is subjective as well, i can link you a lot of maps, inferno, mazzerin 9 star map, irre 8 stars, haitai that overuse high spacing, yet those maps has a lot of complains and are still ranked, my map uses the big jumps consistently in the parts of the songs I believe should be like that.

I was unsure about my own choices with the map, that's why I uploaded both diffs and went to ask to mappers and top players and they tell me that my original map is a lot better and more close to the song than the nerfed one.

so finally we have the mapper feeling strong about his representation of the song, the target audience of the map telling that the pattern doesn't feels overspaced, why I should change it?
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
if you half assedly address the issue of course people will tell you that your original is better?

you aren't even talking about the point raised but something entirely different right now
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu

Okorin wrote:

if you half assedly address the issue of course people will tell you that your original is better?

you aren't even talking about the point raised but something entirely different right now
mmm you didn't know all the 4 versions I did show, I had my original one the 7,30, the current one with the nerfed jumps 7.10, one with downscaled patterns which was 7.02 and the current one with a different pattern of 7,0

So i basically went asking with downscaled patterns, different patterns and original diff, people still prefered the original one.

In the beginning I was above to change them, because Irre told me that worstpolak and rafis hated the patterns, then I asked them and they told me they was sad about me removing and downscaling it.

I think, I already give deep explains why the pattern and the spacing work best in the map, I already got the support from the target audience and the only response i have is * I think vocals aren't only left and I think the spacing is too big *, I believe my arguments and feedback from the target audience are stronger than that. So in the end isn't just we having different interpretations of the song?

this is what I talked with worstpolak and his response:

we thought it was overdone at first but then we played it
he asked me what I think of the pattern when I was in bed and I glanced at it and said LOL OVERDONE AF XDDD
but then I played it and saw the entire map and I was wrong
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,912 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
Not really so far you try to justify stuff with people supporting (irrelevant to the argument) it and other versions of the pattern being worse (which may be your own fault to begin with) while your logic behind the pattern is being questioned

without explaining the logic

and logic doesn't equal to consistency here it equals to relating a pattern or part of a pattern to the general musical movement where we find the pattern to inaccurately suggest that the song has a harsh climaxing portion which it doesn't
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu

Okorin wrote:

Not really so far you try to justify stuff with people supporting (irrelevant to the argument) it and other versions of the pattern being worse (which may be your own fault to begin with) while your logic behind the pattern is being questioned

without explaining the logic

and logic doesn't equal to consistency here it equals to relating a pattern or part of a pattern to the general musical movement where we find the pattern to inaccurately suggest that the song has a harsh climaxing portion which it doesn't
  1. 1 I justified myself in a logical way in: p/5998172
  2. 2 Cxu explained why the spacing in the editor didn't equal the spacing in the gameplay here: p/5998426
  3. 3 I went asking mappers and top players to see if I were wrong about my emphasis and pattern or if Irre was wrong, the response I got was clear my interpretation makes sense to them.
  4. 4 Irre said downscaling the spacing don't work and the pattern don't work
  5. 5 I tried again asking opinions, this time without the nerfing pattern, but making something different as the 'vocals aren't only left argument' , still people prefer my original version.
so you guys think the song doesn't justify the spacing and the pattern, but on the other side you have me the mapper who listen to this song for months, before I even mapped it and a lot of other people saying the spacing and pattern does fit the song, who is right?

so i justify myself with rhythm emphasis, with top players opinion and some mappers, I meant I did everything on my hands to justify my map, in the end isn't more important the mapper interpretation and the comunity support?
If you want more explains I can give them to you, tbh I always build my maps with all the structure in mind and I can explain every object and spacing, probably I'll explain how the whole map works.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

Okorin wrote:

Not really so far you try to justify stuff with people supporting (irrelevant to the argument) it and other versions of the pattern being worse (which may be your own fault to begin with) while your logic behind the pattern is being questioned

without explaining the logic

and logic doesn't equal to consistency here it equals to relating a pattern or part of a pattern to the general musical movement where we find the pattern to inaccurately suggest that the song has a harsh climaxing portion which it doesn't
I'm not specifically targeting you or your post here, it just kind of touched on a bunch of things I wanted to write down, so I'm kinda replying to it, so yeah. It's more directed towards the QATs in general in this thread I guess.

If you believe people supporting it is irrelevant to the argument, then your opinion is equally irrelevant to the argument. While being good at the game isn't the end-all be-all in terms of understanding mapping, neither is being a QAT, and if the idea is to further discussion, I see no reason why other people's positive opinion isn't relevant. The people responding here also aren't purely players, but quite a few also have experience with mapping (me and worstpolack for example). I'd like to think the collective support behind it from us at least amounts to something, considering the fact that the QAT here is also using numbers in a sense (QATs coming along to give their opinion on the matter).

Logic behind the patterns have been explained several times. The problem here isn't that it's not explained, it's that it seems the QAT has decided to not accept it as a reasonable explanation. If that's the case, don't keep saying that it hasn't been explained. Also, whatever happened to the process of helping a DQd map back into the qualified section again? If you believe this is unfitting, why has there been barely any suggestions in this thread on how to improve the pattern other than "remap it lol". It seems stupid to demand a change to a pattern or concept, without providing any suggestions to improve it and why said suggestion is better in particular since you point out that the remap might as well be worse due to it being rushed. There is no discussion to be had if all that comes from one side is yes or no until the other side has changed things enough. If this has been going on in-game with Natsu, then that's good, but considering the replies posted here, it doesn't really seem like it has.

As for the actual logic, the map is clearly following the vocals, and the singer is clearly singing more rapidly during the parts with the bigger jumps. If you believe this isn't a climaxing portion of the song, neither are 1/2 jump usage on 1/2 sections in songs where the drum is playing every 1/2 beat, since that would be equal to what the vocal is doing in this song.

In terms of jumps being "too big" compared to the song, jump distance is relative to the skill of the player. A half screen jump can feel really big for a mid-level player used to playing hard/insane diffs, but that same jump will feel trivial to a more skilled player. For all players, there is a threshold where anything below is more or less trivial to aim, and this threshold gets higher and higher as you get better at the game. Thus difference in spacing below that threshold often don't add much impact at all. The fact that you can vary spacing quite a bit in general through a map without making the map feel off in emphasis even if the song itself is close to constant shows that to a degree spacing emphasis isn't necessarily felt unless it is deliberate (for example by increasing the spacing compared to other parts of the map). Also considering the target audience of the map being high, it's not unreasonable to think that the amount of change in the spacing between patterns is better than reducing it, as it then loses the challenging aspects of the map, and what creates the emphasis in the first place.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
added new mp3, I'm going to add the video soon, going to edit this post with the full explain of the map, maybe that can convince you guys
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
okay so the beatmap is builded around symmetry (as any other of my 52 ranked maps)

part 1


00:00:256 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - the first section is mapped to the piano, basically 1/1 stacks and tiny jumps in 1/2s

part 2


  1. 00:09:856 (1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - vocals come in, all is spaced properly in order to introduce 1/2 constant taps,
  2. 00:17:056 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - the song has the first difference, the combo colors becomer a bit darker and the spacing increased a tinny bit,
  3. 00:18:856 (1,2,1) - the vocals and instruments has the first spike the introduce of the big jumps 2,80 1/2 slider jumps, the player already know that the map will increase intensity suddenly with the song feelings.
part 3


  1. 00:19:756 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - vocals become stronger and there are a few added instruments, the spacing become bigger adding some 1/2 jumps, around 2.0
  2. the player already notice what the combo colors means, since they were introduce during the first 20 seconds
  3. 00:27:856 (1,2,3,4) - drums become stronger than anything before, dark color means jump/fast slider, instead of the previous 2,0 spacing it does changes to 3,30
  4. 00:28:456 (1,2,3,4) - the intensity of the beats is higher than anything else, the hot pink color warms the player that the song is going to have a big change and does the map, the jumps increase to 4,5 aprox
part 4


  1. 00:29:506 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - the music becomes more intense than the previous section, so does the map and the combo colors. We can see the jumps becoming 2,70 and 3,0 aprox
  2. 00:37:456 (1,2,3,4) - 4 constant drums were 3 and 4 are a repetition from 1 and 2, combo colors changes jumps become bigger, the player already know how the combo color hax work and also know how the song spikes work.
  3. 00:38:056 (1,2) - vocals and music increase so does the spacing and the SV
part 5


  1. 00:38:656 (1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - The music and vocals get stable again, so does the combo colors and patterns
  2. 00:41:656 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - drums slowly start to become 1/2 constant, the 2 groups of 3 sliders introduce the players to the rhythm
  3. 00:43:456 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - the drums become stronger and 1/2 constant, combo colors reflect what is happening in the song again, they are divided and vocals parts and instrument only parts, the instrument only parts having less spacing than the vocal ones, the bigger jump is 4,0 that's fine accordinlg to the previous ones
part 6


  1. 00:47:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - kiai, I'd expain this completely as irre and mao complained about it
  2. 00:49:306 (1,2) - 1/4 jumps, in my book high spacing don't play well after a 3/4 sliders, specially at this sv, so I always have the 1/4 spacing short, also I got feedback from Cxu about the sv not being that fast for it.
  3. 00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the signature of my maps, the climax of the lyrics, higher expresion of the vocals, higher expresion in the video, the girls start the fast dance here, the song feelings are in this part, that's why is the only part in my map that doesn't have a simple pattern and also has the higher emphasis of the song.
    The first 6 beats are divided in pairs, being the first one the white tick stronger than the red tick, back and forth patterns does makes the most sense for these beats, the it comes to my mind an horizontal pattern would fit the best and would stress the best this unique part of the song, then I notice 7 has a strong drum on it and the one at 8 is stronger than 7, the vocals lyrics have a deep meaning the video show it as the climax of the song, 7 should be bigger than the back and forth, a ideal placement for the player muscle memory would be an horizontal one, 7 need to be place in the same pattern but with bigger spacing, 8 is stronger so it need a higher spacing and this is how, the song, video lyrics make me put my climax on it.

    Explain beat by beat: p/5998172

    Explain why the spacing in the editor doesn't feels like the spacing in the gameplay: p/5998426

    Video of the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zihoyz0u_cs you can see the energy the video gets at this part of the lyrics and also the energy it gets at every spike in my diff and at every time my combo colors become darkers

    Chase me if you can, it was close enough dangerous~, the guy is basically trying to get her, the back and forth jumps gets the representation of the guy trying to get her, the chase is getting faster and faster, do doest my patterns lyrics, instruments and video.

    In the end when I listen to this song, this is the part were my heart starts to beat faster and i feels is were the vocalist puts their soul, this last may sound super sybjective, but any personal representation of the song is.
  4. The reason why the 3/4 and circle doesn't become bigger is for pure playability as in my book 00:56:506 (1,2) - higher spacing on them does lead to combo breaks and uncomfortable movements.
  5. 00:52:306 (1,2,3) - 00:55:006 (2,3,4) - etc the spacing stay bigger enough, but not bigger as the climax pattern, because I don't feel this parts bring me the same feeling at hearing them
  6. 01:00:106 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the guy literally wake up from the nightmare, the vocals again get that strong feeling on me, vocals drums gets on the constant 1/2 once again, this part should be the climax of the second kiai, i had this on my mind the whole time while mapping this, the guy isn't chasing the girl anymore as in 00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -, but he notice that it was not real, was a nightmare, then he wake up in the middle of night super scary, that feelings in the video, music, instrument getting constant are the ones that make me put another spike here.
  7. 01:06:556 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - basically same feeling as the other jumps spikes, you can't catch me anymore, I'll hide in another place, again the video has a special moment, the instruments get constant, the vocals also get constant, my mind also get the same feeling as the other two sections

part 7


  1. 01:12:256 (1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,1) - repetition of part 2
part 8


  1. 01:22:156 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - different part of the vocals still not that fast, but not slow
  2. 01:26:356 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - there is some build up, the song is getting stronger, so does the star patterns, they do reflect the song nicely
  3. 01:30:256 (1,1,1,1) - vocals do a fun thing, so does the sliders
part 9


  1. 01:31:456 (1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - repetition of part 4
part 10


  1. 01:41:056 (1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - repetition of part 5
part 11


  1. 01:49:456 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - repetition of part 6
part 12


  1. 02:09:856 (1,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,1,2) - this part become stable, not strong, but also not weak, spacing stay on its limits
part 13


  1. 02:19:456 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,1) - same as above
  2. 02:27:706 (1,2,1,1,1) - the song have another spike, combo colors, sv changes
part 14


  1. 02:29:056 (1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - stable rhythm
  2. 02:33:856 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6) - drums are going for the higher to the lowest, that explain the spacing going from the higher to the lower
  3. 02:36:406 (1,1,2,1,1,1) - vocals going from the higher to the lower, sv reflect it in the map
  4. 02:38:656 (1,2) - another spike in the song, the sv and combo color reflect what is going on in the song.
part 15


  1. 02:47:056 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2) - same as the other kiai parts.
part 16


  1. 02:58:306 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1) - constant 1/2 rhythm with jumpy patterns as the song suggest, sliders were used for the chase me vocals
My map isn't randomly builded:

  1. symmetry
  2. clean patterns
  3. diff spikes for everytime that the song, video and lyrics have it
  4. consistency, look at the bookmark of the maps, check the sections to the other similar ones, the map has consistency.
  5. Combo colors does reflect the intensity of the song and patterns
  6. I analized the song, instruments, lyrics and video, so I can proudly said that this is my interpretation of the song beat by beat, combo by combo, section by section
Okay I did my best to explain how the map works, what logic I did follow to build my maps, why does the map have spikes, why the combo colors, the sv changes, patterns etc.

I love this song and I did my best to put my true interpretation of the song in my map, I hope you guys can understand it too and not just trying to make me change something, because u don't like it or you have a different interpretation.

my map represents the story behind the song, this song has a story going on, i analized the video, lyric songs to make my map reflect all of that, that's why it has spikes instead of constant diff.
Last edited by Natsu , edited 2 times in total.
riffy
osu! Alumni
8,060 posts
Joined December 2010
riffy
Essentially what Natsu does is scaling similar patterns from difficulty to difficulty throughout the set. In the context of a single difficulty it might appear sort of overdone, but it does work and the spread progression makes the whole thing perfect in my eyes.

It's designed to be exceptionally hard with the song in mind. It works though it is something that may appear too wild at times.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
I've read the whole explanation now and honestly? Most of these arguments just seem to be taken that far away, it makes less and less sense the more you try to explain yourself. Let me elaborate, but first, I'd like to state the problem again:

00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Patterns like these spike that much (and again: they spike THAT much, this means, that it is allowed to spike because there obviously is a change in the song, but not such a heavy one that this is justified), so it's not justified with the song. Having a fullscreen jump which is not justified properly by an exceptionally powerful beat or vocal does not make sense here. 01:00:106 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Same goes with this, and other instances.

Natsu wrote:

part 6


  1. 00:47:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - kiai, I'd expain this completely as irre and mao complained about it
  2. 00:49:306 (1,2) - 1/4 jumps, in my book high spacing don't play well after a 3/4 sliders, specially at this sv, so I always have the 1/4 spacing short, also I got feedback from Cxu about the sv not being that fast for it. Well, honestly, I wouldn't even know why you'd make this bigger anyway..
  3. 00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the signature of my maps I'm afraid, but using "the signature of my maps" as a justification as to why this jump in particular is okay is not valid. I would like to state one thing again: Just because it's consistent, it does not mean it is good, or fitting. Saying this does make little sense to me anyway - does that mean you map every song the same? the climax of the lyrics Well, why not, could be a nice addition if the rest was justified, higher expresion of the vocals This is partially true, the vocals are different here - but not that intense that they'd justify such a high spacing. Given the setting of the rest of the map they simply don't fit in the concept. , higher expression in the video The girls dance, the background is flashing, the camera is moving around, what exactly makes this part different to the rest of the kiai? I'm afraid, but imo it's just a simple concept here , the girls start the fast dance here This is where I took my first sentence from.
    If you watch the video, the girls are simply moving their arm from the right to the left, even in a slow motion? Excuse me, but even the part before thatt (where they are crossing their arms in an / \ shape is more intense    , the song feelings are in this part, that's why is the only part in my map that doesn't have a simple pattern and also has the higher emphasis of the song
To take things a bit further. 00:47:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - If you compare this to 00:43:456 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - this once, in my opinion, the first pattern is meant to be way more excessive following your logic. I think that the second pair of drums is WAY more intense, and this can easily be heard. On top of that, the drums which you emphasized a crapton out of are actually quite subtle, and additionally, the vocals are almost not existent, they are even somehow fading.

I'm trying to follow your logic, but you are giving me a really hard time to make this possible.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
In a mappers mind their map is always perfect.

Modding is about:

1 point a problem
2 give a solution

you're clearing failing at the second step, suggest me something that can work better there and I'll consider it, if you keep only saying is too big vocals aren't only left you aren't helping at all.

TBH I'm the one having a hard time, explaining my map during hours, giving solid arguments, getting suppport from the community etc and let's be honest you guys don't suggest anything for solve 'the issue', that I believe doesn't exist and many others also think that this is more about forcing your opinions rather than bring solutions.

0 post by the QATs suggest alternative patterns, if you don't suggest, then ofc I'd be keeping mine.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
You are once again completely avoiding the problem, and with that statement I heavily disagree as well. Are we the ones who have to remap your map?

The thing with this is that the solution to most of the points is implied by the problem descriptions themselves, no one was telling you to get rid of the defining pattern in this map to begin with you just chose to read it as such. There's multiple ways of handling this sort of thing and obviously if you do understand the problem either of the solutions that work without decreasing the quality of the map is fine with us.

But once again: Scaling the jumps down simply won't probably solve the problem, since then other things might get out of balance again. But it's up to you how you want to fix that. As you might have seen with your own fix, people weren't really happy with the generic fix you've offered, which is understandable. But I am pretty sure you are smart enough to find another solution while keeping your idea in mind, and I'll repeat this 300 times more if needed.
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Topic Starter
Natsu
so irre

1. downscaling the pattern don't work, because the map become unbalanced??? wasn't you saying this pattern make the map unbalanced in first place
2. changing the pattern also don't work
3. what do you want then??

Yes it's my map and I think it work perfectly,

suggest something, that's what modding is about, if you don't suggest a pattern then objectively my arguments are stronger than yours
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