Cryptic wrote:
Natsu, I think you're missing the point here.
The discussion is about how you're justifying the spacing, not the way it plays or how it feels to a player. No one has really implied they play poorly, they play fine and that's obvious to see. What the real issue is is that you're merging layers and not following one specific instrument/rhythm. You're following multiple in one pattern, which means you aren't properly representing the song. In order to make this a "rhythm game" you must select a rhythm to begin with, not trying to map them all via a dump-chart style. On top of that, you're suddenly giving those noises extreme intensity when in reality they're only more dense than previous notes, not more intense.
Overall, if you look at this, your first 5 notes are constantly changing instrument, which isn't okay. Your final 3 are finally following the same instrument. The best way to fix this is to decide which one you ARE prioritizing and which one you AREN'T. You can't really have it both ways, IMO.
Also how did this get buffed?
Are you seriously saying this is an issue right now?
I'd like to submit dequalification requests for the following maps for the following reasons:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1267222 | 00:24:627 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - (5,7,9) suddenly switches to following the drum only even though the combo itself is following the vocals as indicated by the usage of whistle hitsounds.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/324828 | 00:21:552 (1,2,1,2,1) - Spacing of 00:21:885 (1,2) - increases due to piano, but 00:21:552 (1,2) - is following drums. Back and Forth pattern can be seen as a single pattern, because adding an NC doesn't change the arrangement of notes.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/586841 | 00:51:766 (1,2,3,4) - (1) is following the vocal with the sliderbody as there is a drum at 00:51:877 - that would be mapped if the slider was mapping according to the drums. (3) however is mapped to the drum, but the sliderbody is still used to indicate a held vocal. (4) follows drum again.
I could keep going but you get the point. Merging different layers of a song into 2D space is
exactly what you do when mapping. If you don't, the resulting mapping turns into what most 2008-2009 maps do, such as strictly following the vocals, or the drums. Unless you believe those maps are of higher quality than virtually every map mapped today, what you're pointing out is a complete non-issue and is trying to force issues onto a pattern that, frankly, doesn't seem to have any real problems. It's not hard to find arbitrary reasons to
any pattern for why it may or may not fit with the music according to ones own subjective view. Just to use that last map as an example (
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/586841) I could say the slider velocity in the kiai at 00:50:877 - is too high, because I think that section isn't that much stronger than what comes before it. Or maybe I could say the slider velocity at 00:53:544 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - should be higher than the rest of the kiai to better following the blow-instrument (whatever that one is). The difference between this and what the QAT is doing here is that what I'm saying is a subjective opinion about how
I might've mapped that particular song, while you're all using your subjective opinion as objective fact.
On your point about "how it plays" and "how it feels" to a player. Do you really think a pattern plays well, if there is a disconnect between the pattern played and the song it's following? It doesn't. When we talk about a pattern playing well and that it
fits the song, we don't mean just the pattern in isolation, but also how it relates to the rest of the map. I don't see why you think only mappers/QATs can see the pattern in relation to the whole map?
Also, let's take a look through what the QATs have said about the pattern and the map:
Irreversible wrote:
Hey Natsu, sorry to be a party pooper but I'd like to talk about these jumps again, and refer to our conversation we had.
00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Her voice is just not that spiking here, and it's really not anywhere else. The song is pretty stable, like I've explained you, so I really think that these jumps are very unjustified.
A good fix you've made was 01:02:719 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - this part. I think the progressive increase is well executed. But as for the rest, I really think you'd need to rework those. You should look at P A N's parts, as I told you, I think he did a good job in catching the emphasis properly there.
I've adjusted some things, and the SR will drop a bit but it's still definitely in the proper range this map is supposed to be - in case you care about SR (which you should not in this case)
"You should look at P A N's parts, as I told you, I think he did a good job in catching the emphasis properly there."
Let's do that, then:
01:52:906 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - (1,2,3,4,5) - Constant spacing until it visibly increases at (6,7,8,1)
Now let's take a look at what Natsu's pattern does:
00:50:506 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - (1,2,3,4,5) - Constant spacing until it visibly increases at (6,7,8,1)
Oh wait, they follow the
exact same logic.
Mao wrote:
Hey Natsu,
I'm disqualifying this because I think the issues Irreversible mentioned are valid and need to be adressed. As you have told me already that you are willing to change it, it might be nice to discuss different approaches within this thread as well.
Moreover personally I think the overall concept of the map is broken, not only the pattern Irre linked. Generally many jumps don't emphasize anything or go well with the music. Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - . In my opionion you'll have to change your jump placement concepts drastically in order to fix these issues.
Anyways, I'd like to have some more discussion going on here before we proceed. For further assistance, feel free to PM us! Good luck for now /o/
At this point, Irre's issues are already addressed above. Now the issues addressed in Mao's post:
"Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) -"
01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - Drums get more intense, so they get more emphasis. Same thing happens in the Collab, and as far as I know you would prefer to delete the whole difficulty and have the collab be the highest one.
02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - Nice feeling, I feel that they aren't. Why are your feelings more valid than mine? But hey, I'm sure if you showed what you meant properly and actually showed what would be proper organization of these notes (doesn't need to be more than 3-4 notes in some neat arrangement), that still follows the general spacing emphasis of this section, that Natsu would be willing to change this.
Next is Okorin who's points I address at
p/6004860Next is Irre's post at
p/6006437Firstly, spacing emphasis is
not exponential. It depends on the pattern and its surrounding patterns and notes. It's not as black and white as "big jump must be 10 times more intense".
Secondly, right below (
p/6006471) he says that scaling the pattern down is not a solution.
So let's think about this for a second. The problem Irre is pointing out (which btw, is the exact same thing as in P A N's part, except that one is apparently fine), is that the spacing spikes too much compared to the surrounding notes. Why then, would scaling this down in
any way not be a solution? The jumps get closer in spacing to the rest of the map, which is exactly what reducing a spike is. While I don't think scaling it down is even necessary, at least be consistent with your own argument.
Now you (and Okorin) talk about density, and how that isn't intensity. Here's an example:
Take a light green square, then take the same square, but make it out of small green dots evenly spread apart. Now, turn the light green suare's color closer to green, and increase the dots in the other square. Notice what's happening? Both colors are getting more
intense.
Finally, the point of using other maps as justification:
They are not justification for it being fine, it's justification that it's a non-issue that QATs have had no issue with in the past 10 000 maps, and is suddenly a problem here only because of one persons subjective opinion. Either this is an issue for all maps that this appears in (in which case, go dequalify the majority of standard maps in qualified right now), or you're being selective and hypocritical against this map specifically. You can't be okay with it one place and not okay with it another, because then it's time to question if what you guys are doing is Quality Assurance, or "I like this map, I don't like this map".
Also, I forget who it was, but a previous QAT said that more people agreeing to it doesn't mean it's right or whatever it was. Certainly, someone must believe that to be true for the QATs, otherwise why would you need 4 different QATs all coming to agree with the other QATs, just to make their argument seem stronger?