Also, I'm M1 player should I consider learning K1 and K2?
I heavily disagree with this. I think you're not realising that muscle memory is built much better through interleaving rather than block learning. Block learning works, but it's half as slow. Literally.-Jukke- wrote:
Playing different kinds of maps is good, youll build a diverse skillset, however retrying and really burning those patterns into muscle memory is also very good, as long as retrying is a pleasant experience.
I strongly agree with jukke that 95% should be minimum. We still do need to keep in mind that this is a rhythm game and not just a button mashing game.Blitzfrog wrote:
In terms of accuracy I would say about 84% MINIMUM.
Again, I agree with jukke that HD is an exception but gonna elaborate it based on my experiences. As an HD player myself, it rly isn't a mod that raises the difficulty of a map. In my experience, I can do maps having HD on with the same level of performance in nomod. Let's say I played this 5.5* map in nomod and finished with a decent combo and decent acc, if I would play it in HD, I would most of the time get the same combo and acc like my nomod play, something like that. So imo, HD isn't rly a difficulty mod but more of a playstyle in its own.Blitzfrog wrote:
Next is do NOT touch mods until you're at least 25k in rank or 2 200pp no mod score.
Believe me, lower pps aren't an exception (based on my observations at least). This is because our current pp system uses acc and combo as basis for pp. For example, there's a player that can FC 4* maps nomod with decent acc and let's say those give him around 80ish pp. Then there's this player that can't fc 4* maps but plays late 2* maps DT with high acc giving him like80ish pp or even higher. True, DT makes maps harder and all but we all know who is better in terms of skills.kai99 wrote:
Many people will disagree on this but I believe pp reflects our skills especially at lower pps, just because I've seen my pp to be quite in line with my skills.
I can clear 10* with NF xdkai99 wrote:
I've also cleared maps with NF that are about 0.5-1 star above my skill level- this helps me get ready for higher skills like big jumps and I aim for 80%+. Otherwise it won't help that much. This method helped me read AR ~8.5 and be ready for the songs later
Welp, guess I shouldn't have said anything about DT as you already stated yourself that pp is rly easy to get with DT, completely ruining your first statement. Anyway, true, mods are fun but I'll tell you now that in hr (assuming you haven't played the mod above 3*), if you try and see the comparison of a map 2* with diffs higher than it, specifically late 3* and higher, you might change your opinion on the mod completely. What I'm saying that mods are good and all, but they're not rly helpful in a player's early stage in this game.kai99 wrote:
I also disagree with Jukke even though really, it depends on some people, because I've found mods to be fun and good to play with when I'm just sick and tired of nomod/ run out of maps to play. I don't like DT though, because at low stars it's really easy to get pp...
Blitzfrog wrote:
I am assuming you want the fastest way to improve regardless of fun, and leaving the fun factor until later when you're much better
So to people who say "play more" and "enjoy game" I made a thread about that here
Onto the question:
The best way to improve is by playing new songs all the time.
This means ideally you should have 10k + maps. And making sure not 5k of then being TV sized jump maps. Try Camellia maps, Hollow Wing maps, SukiNathan...etc
Make sure you play in a star range that you know distinctively when you miss. This means about missing every 10 combo. Humans take negative more than they take positive. So learning by what you miss is faster than learning by what you hit. Which is why you want to play songs that you can get a high combo on. In terms of accuracy I would say about 84% MINIMUM.
Next is do NOT touch mods until you're at least 25k in rank or 2 200pp no mod score. Because otherwise you're not building base osu skills. I made a thread about it you can read it here
Now my last advice, I am not certain of it. It certainly works for me, but I haven't extensively researched it and not enough test subjects for me to be sure this is legit. But either way I will put this out there.SPOILERA thread about what I'm going to talk about
Basically changing your sensitivity everyday
Change it just enough so you can feel it. Personally for me, I switch from 0.9~1.1x sens everyday. I just go on google and roll from 90~110 and use that number as my sensitivity. It is important you spend at least 45 minutes with a new sensitivity until you move on to the next. It is also important you have at least a 6 hour gap before changing your sensitivity. Good luck
My god, there is just those people who ignore the main point and argue for the sake of arguingmarkii wrote:
While humans recall negative experiences better than positive ones, there is no evidence that negative feedback helps more in practice than positive (in fact there's quite a large ammount that suggests it doesn't matter as long as you are challenged)
25k players don't have good fundamental skills, that number is an arbitrary stopping point
the study that was posted about moving a cursor around a screen was largely flawed when trying to vompare it to osu! because it used an unintuitive control system, which osu! doesn't, and it tested for basic ability, not mastery, who knows if in more complex tasks they don't even out after a while, not to mention how your brain handles tasks that are similar to eachother (spoiler alert not well)
also there is nothing wrong with jump maps, they help with learning to aim and reading cross map patterns
@OP play a variety of maps, including jumps, play multi and hit F2 for variety, play songs both within and outside of your skillrange, and have fun you'll get good without noticing
What is the best way to improve?First ensure that you have adequate equipment. A good mouse like roccat savu, logitech pro, or zalman m600-r, or a kinzu v2, etc. And a reliable keyboard like any cherry mx red or brown switch board or etc.. Then you will be using the same equipment that majority of top mouse players use.
I like how dismissively you started that off, just to continue on and write an essay anyways. Also you seemed to take it quite personally that I argued your points, I hope you're right and I learn a better way to improve at things, my goal wasn't to pidgeon hole your comment, chill.Blitzfrog wrote:
My god, there is just those people who ignore the main point and argue for the sake of arguing
Yes you're right there is no evidence to show which one improves faster. But my main point on that paragraph isn't about that. It's about being able to distinguish which note you hit and which note you miss.
Now on the same topic, you will learn faster in osu if you learn by misses because you will remember them and remember WHY you missed. Rather than RNG moving mouse and going Hey! That worked for some reason!
25k is recommended by others, but it's about the right time when people have around 200 PP and are playing around late 5*. So Jukke knows this one better.
Idk where you get the idea from that the brain handles tasks that are similar to each other badly. It handles it excellently in fact. For example, improving in tour G major scale is likely gonna increase your skill at playing E major scale. Similarly if you know every scale and I suddenly introduce you to a new one, you will be able to play that one almost flawlessly first try. So long as the change is not too large, like from golf swing to basketball shooting. This is called interleaving. Works especially well with basic motor skills. And changing sensitivity doesn't change it from moving a mouse to throwing a mouse.
To the study itself. It is in no way unintuitive nor largely flawed when compared to osu. Saying a squeezing device is unintuitive is like saying a ball mouse whatever it's called is unintuitive. Also osu is not complex in motor skills in anyway. Compared to something like table tennis or badminton, it is a joke. Also, I think you have to realise that the main point of the study isn't about how fast you learn, but the best way you learn motor skills. That sounds retarded but ill explain. Learning fast means learning something to a good degree fast. Best way to learn is allowing your brain to handle this information the best. This whole point of the study was trying to prove/disprove interleaving. Not to mention interleaving is shown to have allowed information to be stored in the long term memory.
There is indeed nothing wrong with jump maps. Again you're missing the point again. I am saying don't get 10k maps with 8k of them being PP Sized jump maps because obviously you're not getting any variety
Bruh, OT boys never take anything personally and usually not seriously toomarkii wrote:
SPOILERI like how dismissively you started that off, just to continue on and write an essay anyways. Also you seemed to take it quite personally that I argued your points, I hope you're right and I learn a better way to improve at things, my goal wasn't to pidgeon hole your comment, chill.
You said playing maps that you miss approximately every 10 combo, this literally won't help at all, it may help with aim and reaction time, a bit, but as for reading and rhythm sense, it will do almost nothing. Also if you agree there is no evidence humans learn better from negative feedback, why are you stating that they do? the other thing is that most people that are low rank DON'T know why they miss, how many times have you heard "I KNOW I'm on beat, but I keep getting 100s" or even just "I totally hit that." Also IDK what you're on about people hitting notes through RNG, no one in this entire thread praised mashing impossible maps (other than you "...miss every 10 combo")
25k is recomended by who exactly? I've heard people say 25k, 20k, 15k, 10k, 5k, and 1k these are all arbitrarily made up by people who claim to know what rank people generally have solid fundamentals by, which you say is 25k. I personally played nomod to 3k because HR wasn't an easy transition until about then (for me) I also play a lot of multi and I can't call it a fact, but I don't believe even close to most 25k players have good fundamentals, most of them can't read complex patterns in anyway, can't aim hard jumps, and aren't good at streams (albeit usually better than me,) and when you spectate most don't have good rhythm sense, and that's all highly anecdotal but I think most of the time even 15k players are only decent at one of these skills.
A trackball isn't very unintuitive, it works with very specific directional movements, where as squeezing a pointing device sounds vague and without seeing it in front of me I can come up with 5 different ways it might work right off the top of my head, where as a track ball, track pad, mouse, or tablet I couldn't see having to much issue explaining to someone without confusion, but maybe I'm just biased, because I'm already have experience with them. Also I'm not saying the study is flawed at all, just that the comparison to osu! might be.
I guess I was confused because you pointed out jump maps specifically, when you could have just said something more like "as long as you have a good mix of different types of maps" seemed like you were taking some sort of stand against jump maps, my bad.
Personally I don't focus too much on improving per se, I just kinda play when I feel like it, and end up getting a bit better.
Nothing specialN0thingSpecial wrote:
Holy fuck this is like a bunch of edgy teens talking about philosophy
Agreed. Blitzfrog got it right. Don't retry unless you learn streaming, but that's another story.Blitzfrog wrote:
I heavily disagree with this. I think you're not realising that muscle memory is built much better through interleaving rather than block learning. Block learning works, but it's half as slow. Literally.-Jukke- wrote:
Playing different kinds of maps is good, youll build a diverse skillset, however retrying and really burning those patterns into muscle memory is also very good, as long as retrying is a pleasant experience.
Sure enough retrying below 5 times is good. But over that is just block learning and you can spend your time better elsewhere
The rest Idc because I don't really have much to back it up. So it's probably better to listen to Jukke (logically speaking) since he is like 4x my rank
Welp, guess I shouldn't have said anything about DT as you already stated yourself that pp is rly easy to get with DT, completely ruining your first statement. Anyway, true, mods are fun but I'll tell you now that in hr (assuming you haven't played the mod above 3*), if you try and see the comparison of a map 2* with diffs higher than it, specifically late 3* and higher, you might change your opinion on the mod completely. What I'm saying that mods are good and all, but they're not rly helpful in a player's early stage in this game.[/quote]kai99 wrote:
I also disagree with Jukke even though really, it depends on some people, because I've found mods to be fun and good to play with when I'm just sick and tired of nomod/ run out of maps to play. I don't like DT though, because at low stars it's really easy to get pp...
M8 osu! is a deep game Insert emo quote hereN0thingSpecial wrote:
Holy fuck this is like a bunch of edgy teens talking about philosophy
If you can tap fast, DT is free pp coz same map pattern, but just faster. About hr, trust me, people who can pass high diffs even with hr but can't acc it is, imo, still in the stage of struggling with the mod. This is because they only rely on their reaction rather than actually "clicking to the beat" that makes them hit the notes with 100s and 50s.kai99 wrote:
At around 2.5* I found DT to be just free pp. like... it's 30 secs of gold or nothing. You fail or succeed. xDDD (I can pass 10* with nf too jkjk)
And really, I stopped playing HR at all tbh because I couldn't play it. CS 7 and AR 10? WOAH NO THANKS.. I feel as if that's what usually happens to players tho so I'm not really worried about people struggling with HRs- they won't play it if they can't, I guess..
I struggle on HR because I can't react to AR10. My reaction speed is not actually that great. I grew up on AR7-8 and have better than average reading, moving onto AR9 was a struggle, I couldn't do this till 2k pp. And didn't become consistent at AR9.6 till 4k pp. That is also why I don't play hidden, because I will actually fail to notice stacks or a corner jump altogether simply because my vision couldn't keep up. I have few AR10 and HD FC because I memorized the map.Hibiya-chan wrote:
About hr, trust me, people who can pass high diffs even with hr but can't acc it is, imo, still in the stage of struggling with the mod. This is because they only rely on their reaction rather than actually "clicking to the beat" that makes them hit the notes with 100s and 50s.
I would argue that going for maps that you get 85% accuracy on is more block learning than interleaving as it is further out of your skill range therefore more different.Blitzfrog wrote:
I heavily disagree with this. I think you're not realising that muscle memory is built much better through interleaving rather than block learning. Block learning works, but it's half as slow
There are some things that you learn through misses, however its good to have a balanced play style where you play hard and easy stuff as you cant learn every skill in the game through misses. Getting good accuracy and consistency you learn through playing easier maps where you miss less.Blitzfrog wrote:
Now on the same topic, you will learn faster in osu if you learn by misses because you will remember them and remember WHY you missed
Depends on what you mean by variety, the style may be the same but the positions of the notes and the difficulty of the jumps can vary which means it still benefits from the interleaving effect.Blitzfrog wrote:
I am saying don't get 10k maps with 8k of them being PP Sized jump maps because obviously you're not getting any variety
I don't think you need to watch replays to know what you need to improve on, if someone gave me a replay and i had to figure out why they missed I would have no idea. Did they read the note? Did they lose concentration? Did they not have a good enough feel on where to snap to? I wouldn't have a clue by watching a replay. You can only tell through self analysis.Blitzfrog wrote:
Also for the negative consequences, if they would have bothered to watch their replays, they will know more precisely where it is they need to improve on. They know which part of the replay they need to concentrate and figure out WHY they missed.
This contradicts the advice where-Jukke- wrote:
Also retrying is very useful for improving in this game. Id actually say its very necessary for getting good at this game
Both are true even though they seem to be saying opposite things. The subtlety is in the reasons why the advice is true, retrying is a way to increase your skill the fastest by focusing on a certain skill that you lack while playing new songs taps into the interleaving effect. Now that the situations that the advice is true is clear you can see that you can actually do both.Blitzfrog wrote:
The best way to improve is by playing new songs all the time
This wont speed up improvement, if it did people who are trying to get good at basket ball would play in a different sized court with a different sized ball, with a different weight etc. Playing different maps is enough to get the interleaving effect. Too many variations turns training into block learning rather that interleaving, which is as you know, bad for improvement.Blitzfrog wrote:
Basically changing your sensitivity everyday
Change it just enough so you can feel it. Personally for me, I switch from 0.9~1.1x sens everyday. I just go on google and roll from 90~110 and use that number as my sensitivity. It is important you spend at least 45 minutes with a new sensitivity until you move on to the next. It is also important you have at least a 6 hour gap before changing your sensitivity. Good luck
For now, stick to maps 3.5* or lower nomod then after getting decent acc and fc'ing them consistently, easily work you way up the higher star diffs. Don't rush, improvement will just naturally come to you.InsaneMadness wrote:
Wait but the problem is,
I can't find my skill level
Can easily FC 2* but sometimes chokes
Can FC a few 3* and acc literally is fked up like one of 3.08* I get 80% then 4.01 I get 89% so random?
Update: Oh I just realise there was a second page didn't see that
*checks profile* ...sry I offended yahMomiji wrote:
if you can be so retarded, just kill yourself because you'll be retarded, but just for a shorter period of time.Hibiya-chan wrote:
If you can tap fast, DT is free pp coz same map pattern, but just faster.