Hi there Osu-players,

I know this is just one of many many other topics, but I am also searching for advice here.
I am playing Osu for more than 4 years, I am 26 years old and since... maybe more than 2 years?... I am not improving in playing streams (and I was once rank 40k).
I am not even sure how I can describe where I am right now. i try to explain my issues on different maps:

If it is about stamina I would say I can't stream at all. Not even 120 BPM, I am refering to this map people adviced me to train on: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/72474
My issue with that is that I get a very bad behaviour with those maps. I was told to go on and push myself until I fail the song. And for the first 30 seconds everything is OK and looingk good but then my fore-arm gets numb, my muscles hurt and I can't control it anymore. I switch from a steady 1-2-1-2-1-2 to 1-2-*break*-1-2-*break* nearly pushing both fingers the same time on the keys.

Let's go to this song: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38235
153 BPM and long streams. I would say there is a 70% chance that I pass it. I can't keep up with the speed, also here the first few seconds are looking good but then I get slower and the only thing I can do is trying to just keep hammering on the keys. Everything else is luck.

Where do I go on? In all other maps up to 200 BPM I can hit 5-7 circle streams properly. 200-220 BPM I can also hit 3-5 circles, but dare the map having 2 tripples in a row - I can't hit those at all.


I am using a mechanical keyboard for tapping, a Razer BlackWidow with Blue Switches (as far as I know). I don't play with a tablet, I am using a mouse for aiming. I am a person who dislikes playing the same map over and over and over again - it gets boring and I get frustrated very fast (tears incoming ).
I am alternating between "Firetruck it, I play Osu for fun" and "God damn, why can't I get better?".
I play 4,5* songs for warming up and - depending on the map of course - I play up to max 6 stars (mainly jump maps I can pass there tho).

Some people say I should just play whatever I like - and I do of course. I AM improving in Accuracy, Reading, Aiming... but not streaming and compared to everyone else near my rank I feel like I am the worst when it comes to streams. It is really not that I avoid them! I play a lot of maps with NF because they are really fun to play, examples are:
t/302339
t/376567
t/125592
t/24775
t/200008

I have no idea what to do and I hope that there are a few people out there having some ideas to help

You gain stamina by practice. If your fingers are numb and your muscles are sore, that's a good sign because it means you are pushing yourself, which means you will improve. Keep playing stream maps, it doesn't have to be the same one, but keep playing them and you will eventually get better.

Also blue switches are horrible for streaming. If you have the cash I recommend using reds, or another type.

Also, barely anyone around your rank is actually good at streaming so don't be too hard on yourself.

The biggest requirements for streaming are controlling your speed and having enough stamina to maintain that speed for longer periods of time.

There's no real way to teach this as it really comes down to your own dexterity. You describe in your post that you are ok with alternating for a bit until you eventually start going out of rhythm. That's likely that you haven't built up enough stamina (from repeating streams like this on a regular basis) in order to play them constantly, especially if you feel your forearm getting that burning sensation. (Which while this isn't bad, hand positioning for your tapping hand can help with this a little!)

My advice for learning to stream or learn any kind of pattern (repeated 3note patterns for example) is to not start with the really hard / fast patterns first and to start slow and work your way up to more difficult stuff. That way you give yourself time to build stamina and you also improve at other things such as reading / accuracy / aim so that you can actually manage to play harder songs down the line.

If you really want to get good, do the above while also focusing on accuracy at the same time. Every time you drop acc during a stream once you have the stamina to play it, you're being either too fast or too slow and therefore not paying enough attention to your timing / speed.

just keep playing maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/77370 and it will come eventually.

it isn't

Stream is life.

Pls don't grind 120bpm coz you will hurt yourself. Start around 165~185 coz that's the common bpm range of most people that I know of. You always start with your middle bpm then expand your range to go faster or slower (but that will be after 1~2 years of playing).

Most guides or players will tell you to start from snail speed 2bpm or w/e. That is wrong. You always start from middle bpm, which varies from person to person.

If your forearm muscles or triceps start to burn while streaming, then don't stop and keep going coz that's how you're supposed to do it.

But if pain occur anywhere else, shoulder, fingertip, numbness in hand, etc. then stop and re-evaluate coz thats the road to rsi.

@B1rd
I am ALWAYS last multiplaying with people on my rank. As I said I was once 40k, I don't know anyone worse than me when it comes to streaming.

Sadly I thought I would hear something new, because I AM already training since 2 years, nothing ever happens else than my back hurting very often and me being exhausted.

How am I supposed to start with 165-185 BPM maps? Which maps exactly? What purpose is there if I just hammer on the keyxboard without any sense of beat because I can't keep up with that? Then I can also just hammer on the keyboard as fast as I can without any music - it would have the same effect. Why skip 120 BPM and lower when I don't even have enough stamina to do 120 BPM for a minute? But how to not skip it if I get this bad behaviour from it?

I don't feel like I am the usual player you can advice stuff you can copy/paste to 100 other people too.

Who are you to say which technique to get better at streaming is correct? Finger control is the most important aspect of streaming; anyone can spam 200 bpm, but good streaming accuracy, matching speed to sync to the bpm, the ability to hold steady on long streams, these are all more important. Thus it is always better to start slow and build up the foundational skills, rather than start fast and have to unlearn mashing.

B1rd wrote:

Thus it is always better to start slow and build up the foundational skills, rather than start fast and have to unlearn mashing.

It's also easier to observe oneself on slower speed which helps in identifying potential problems.

Well this is 120 BPM: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7368541
This is the same in half time (90 BPM): https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7368502 (Don't mind the beginning I couldn't figure out the speed)

So how much lower should I go? I could single tap 90 BPM better than alternating.
And again: My issue is that my hand is just not reacting anymore, I can't move my fingers. Locked. And then I start pushing both fingers on the keyboard instead of alternating.

don't play the long ones
they exist to exercise stamina, not to learn streaming
try this difficulty (LRJ):
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/88309

Tician wrote:

How am I supposed to start with 165-185 BPM maps? Which maps exactly? What purpose is there if I just hammer on the keyxboard without any sense of beat because I can't keep up with that? Then I can also just hammer on the keyboard as fast as I can without any music - it would have the same effect. Why skip 120 BPM and lower when I don't even have enough stamina to do 120 BPM for a minute? But how to not skip it if I get this bad behaviour from it?

I will answer question by question.
1. Start with your natural bpm range w/e it may be, you'll figure it out it is rather intuitive. hint: it is usually the bpm of your most accurate UR play probably start from there. I figured mine out by tapping on my desk with my arm completely relaxed.
2. Pls make the effort and find the maps yourself and build your own map pool.
3. If you struggle with rhythm sense then turn up hit sound volume and play map with auto mod first and really listen to hitsound so you can get used to perfect accuracy hit sounds.
4. Because it is harder to go slower than your bpm range. You mention numbness when practising 120bpm so that is indication that you are straining your nerve which is unhealthy and causes RSI. You should only feel a burning sensation in the muscle the same feeling when you are jogging for a while except the burn is in your forearm and not your calves.

B1rd wrote:

Who are you to say which technique to get better at streaming is correct? Finger control is the most important aspect of streaming; anyone can spam 200 bpm, but good streaming accuracy, matching speed to sync to the bpm, the ability to hold steady on long streams, these are all more important. Thus it is always better to start slow and build up the foundational skills, rather than start fast and have to unlearn mashing.

I DID NOT SAY START FAST, I SAID START MIDDLE SPEED. It is harder to go faster yes that is common knowledge, but what a lot of people don't know is that it is also harder to go slower. And finger control? Slow streaming and fast streaming speeds varies from player to player, and that is something that players should only concern about after years of experience. First they need to learn how to save stamina which will help a lot with streaming accuracy and so will precision aiming. It's not about gaining stamina, its about saving stamina.

'Your most natural speed' is basically your fastest, or near your fastest. The idea of streaming isn't to match the bpm to your fingers, it's to match your fingers to the bpm. Just spamming on the keyboard and playing songs that just coincidentally match your spamming speed isn't streaming, it's mashing. That's why people specifically recommend slow streaming maps, because it actually requires proper streaming and gets them away from their comfort/mashing bpm zone.

I never mentioned anything about stamina. It's not the most important skill at the start. That's the other reason why I recommend slower maps, because it allow you to develop the important aspects of streaming independent from the physical demands of faster maps. Finger control is the most important aspect of streaming, it encompasses having one key stroke for every circle, having one under or one too many is no good. It encompasses accuracy, and the ability to hold a consistent stream that neither speeds up nor slows down.

Your idea of finger control and mine are different. When I think of finger control I think of <100 UR on technical maps.

When I think of stream accuracy, I think of rhythm perception, then precision aiming and conserving stamina.

B1rd wrote:

'Your most natural speed' is basically your fastest, or near your fastest.

NO

You have to master your bpm range first before going faster or slower. If you can only burst 8 notes with shit UR then you are not ready to move on yet.

B1rd wrote:

'That's why people specifically recommend slow streaming maps, because it actually requires proper streaming and gets them away from their comfort/mashing bpm zone.

This mashing zone is outside your comfortable bpm range, not within it. The late game goal is to expand your range so that you can acc everything which may even require mastering various techniques depending on bpm. This is after you have acquired stream accuracy by staying within your bpm range. Your arm needs to be as relaxed and you need to learn to push your fingers through air before you start expanding your bpm range (such as starting too slow), not the other way round please.

itt: play more lolz

When I say finger control, I mean finger control. You're the one who has an arbitrary definition of it. Accuracy is dependent upon rhythm sense, but without the physical abilities to execute that rhythm it's useless.

And "NO" isn't a counter argument. What is "your bpm range"? This is just another arbitrary concept that you have done little to define or even show that it actually exists. No, no one is innately predisposed to stream a certain bpm without developing that skill first. There exists mashing, by virtue of the fact that going as fast as one's physical ability allow does not require any control. Going any slower than that, would require developing streaming control. Which is the thing that I've been talking about.

So, this idea that someone should stick to one bpm for 2 years and master that is even more silly and unorthodox than playing 120 bpm stream practice over and over.

So... I can hit a few circles with 200 BPM and the lower the BPM goes the more circles I can hit. There don't seem to be a comfortable zone or a "BPM range" I can do. It's simple the lower the BPM the longer and more I can hit. It doesn't start anywhere, because even in 120 BPM there is a limit.

I don't have the feeling there is an answer I can give to "How many BPM can you stream?"

below and above 140-160bpm streaming are super different because below you need to compensate for your fingers "pulling" on each other and above you can simply slightly bounce your fingers off of the keys and constantly move them. the "control" element still exists but is lessened. ever played ai no niwa = you know what I'm talking about

"most natural" speed is, at least for me, the "165-185" that Kuki described - because it's the lowest part of the range where I can move my fingers constantly and don't have to keep holding the keys for years like I have to do below 140 which feels awkward. Etc etc. Ez pz.

omg play all BPM you noobs

i don't really know but practicing maps that you're comfortable streaming first will be much easier than trying to practice really slow bpm like 120 bpm. I know some people who says even 160 bpm songs like Mendes as "slow af" to stream even though they were still new and couldn't really stream.

For me though, when I first found https://osu.ppy.sh/b/845391 the first thought I had about the map while playing was "holy shit this is so comfortable to stream" at the Another diff, when I tried the Extra it still feels really comfortable to play even though I get 100 on almost everything because I lacked finger control, stamina, and couldn't really stream in general.

I couldn't believe I could actually stream before finding that map tbh, but since then I've been trying maps around the 175 bpm stream maps and tried to increase it bit by bit and I'm pretty sure I can stream 200 bpm comfortably now.. which isn't that impressive in this rank but I can live with not being a good streamer

Slow bpm maps would help with finger control so you can actually get accuracy on streams, but I think it's better to get used to your comfortable streaming bpm first. And after you can stream, those long stream maps really helps to train your stamina so you can do your comfortable bpm for much longer.

PS: If all else fails, you don't really need much streaming skills to PP farm nomod anyway and learning how 2 stream really takes awhile so....

Tician wrote:

So... I can hit a few circles with 200 BPM and the lower the BPM goes the more circles I can hit. There don't seem to be a comfortable zone or a "BPM range" I can do. It's simple the lower the BPM the longer and more I can hit. It doesn't start anywhere, because even in 120 BPM there is a limit.

I don't have the feeling there is an answer I can give to "How many BPM can you stream?"

I remember most of my time spent learning to stream, since it was my focus for the entire time I played this game. Not so much my focus anymore, but still my strongest area. I can agree with what KukiMonster says. Start comfortable.

I was in the same boat as you when I started. I had no control for any BPM. What I did was practice streaming-styled maps in an ascending BPM order in any given session. I made lists and played them every weekend for hours. Those were my very first steps... playing actual maps. After many weekends of practice at these incremental speeds, I found that I had an upper limit for "cold playing" - i.e. the BPM I could play without any warm up (from the perspective of accuracy, speed, and stamina - ALL three in one). For me, this was a comfortable BPM, because it was the easiest to control, even though I lacked control. It was also the fastest I could stream right as I sat down to start playing, even though I did not know my top speed. It was also the BPM I could practice for a long time without feeling injury, even though I felt tired all the time, and so I did take short breaks.

I hope this is informative for you to find a comfortable BPM. I do not recommend starting with long stream practice maps. You need to learn to control shorter streams first (starting and ending streams on time, in conjunction with reading other patterns). Once you have control on shorter streams (you will know), you can start playing those long stream maps. Everything begins to falter when either mental or physical exhaustion sets in. You might as well try to set good foundations first without worrying about getting exhausted. Be conscientious of how you play when it comes to streams. Bad habits in streaming are difficult to undo, but not impossible.

B1rd wrote:

And "NO" isn't a counter argument.

But you wrote: "'Your most natural speed' is basically your fastest, or near your fastest." Which isn't true. It is around the middle. Not too fast or too slow it is just right. It is the speed you are most accustomed with. You can log in pre-warmup and stream around this speed for many notes with blissful accuracy. Its the speed that when you are single tapping your aim hand sync and UR is godmode. How many times do I have to rephrase this? I don't have to counter-argue something you mention when it isn't true, you have to prove to me coz that would mean that your best UR and stamina is your fastest bpm.

Trying to acc slower streams is in fact VERY tiring, just as tiring as trying to go faster. It's complete RSI if you don't know what you're doing.

It is still a bit weird to tell someone who claims to have a severe speed problem to avoid slow maps...I spectated Tician for a bit and 150 bpm is definitely above her comfortable speed and she also formed some bad habits already like starting too fast with a burst motion in order to compensate for the lack of stamina.

In that case RainFire's experience of trying various streaming maps in ascending bpm order might come in handy here.

KukiMonster wrote:

But you wrote: "'Your most natural speed' is basically your fastest, or near your fastest." Which isn't true. It is around the middle. Not too fast or too slow it is just right. It is the speed you are most accustomed with. You can log in pre-warmup and stream around this speed for many notes with blissful accuracy. Its the speed that when you are single tapping your aim hand sync and UR is godmode. How many times do I have to rephrase this? I don't have to counter-argue something you mention when it isn't true, you have to prove to me coz that would mean that your best UR and stamina is your fastest bpm.
Trying to acc slower streams is in fact VERY tiring, just as tiring as trying to go faster. It's complete RSI if you don't know what you're doing.

You can phrase it in any way you like but it doesn't make your personal experience into a universal rule. Tell me, why would a new player, who can't stream at all, have a comfortable bpm range in which they can suddenly do long torrents of streams with godlike accuracy? Because, you see, that would require a degree of streaming skill in the first place.

I've already explained, and I think I've made it perfectly clear, why so many player's comfortable bpm is near their limit. Prove to me that overstreaming doesn't exist. Can you do that? If not, would you then say that newer players with a lack of control are prone to overstreaming? If yes, then would go also admit that it's impossible to overstream past your actual speed limit of streaming? Which of these statements do you disagree with?

How does one 'not know what they're doing' while streaming low bpm? Is there some secret technique I'm not aware of that prevents RSI? Because I've streamed lots of low bpm maps, I've felt pain and discomfort in both my wrists, never in my tapping fingers or forearms though.

You should play a variety of bpms, not just one. And for new player specifically, there should be a focus on building up acc and consistent streaming. Naturally this would be done on slower maps. And playing long stream practice isn't necessary, except for building stamina. What I do recommend is playing some of the large amount of 120-160bpm ar8 insanes, these usually have lots of fairly short and slow streams that are good for entry-level streaming practice.

Why is (nearly) everyone talking about 'Their beginning' or beginners in general? >.<

Guys I am playing for 4 years now, I don't feel like I am a beginner

If I would be a beginner I wouldn't post here, because I know people would tell me to just keep playing. But after 4 years of 'keep playing' I am stuck, this is why I am here

Thanks a lot to Endaris who gave me some maps, spectated me and pointed out some stuff I can work on <3