Protastic101 wrote:

default samples smh

Going to pop as I feel as there's still some ongoing discussion about things that should be allowed to be exhausted first before the requalify. So it's kind of a community driven pop I guess? I dunno, I want to see your response and I won't try to force anything, plus I got just a couple concerns myself, mostly about the middle parts I suppose. Im sure we can get this sorted out relatively quickly though.

The finish is a tad bit quiet tbh and I can barely hear it, so I might consider increasing the vol. Also, not having a kick in the song despite this being like 90% kicks feels really lazy on the hitsounding. I might consider adding a kick like this https://puu.sh/y5FPv.wav
//HS reworded

Concerning the mod response to DD, I feel that it's a bit inadequate in the last box as he does present a few solutions on how to solve what he sees is wrong with the map, so to generalize your entire response as it being the song's fault isn't doing any justice to the effort DD spent writing his mod. You may disagree but I still think you should justify why the sections he points out are the way they are now and why you believe they work fine.

Anyways, enough fluff, here's wonderwall
[Ultra]
00:10:096 (10096|1,10154|2) - I'd probs control H this so the player doesn't have to deal with the 1/2 jacks in col 1 and a 1/4 minitrill on the same hand. In this way, the left hand deals with the jack but the right hand has only the trill and one jack to worry about

00:46:846 - Might be cool to add a really short SV here on the 1/8 snap like 00:46:846 - 2.5x and 00:46:875 - 0.5x to emphasize the sudden loss in musical density at this point.

00:50:712 (50712|3,50770|3) - Ouch, could you maybe not? I mean, at more moderate BPMs, this might be acceptable, but this basically plays like 130 BPM 1/8 jack which is a bit unfair to the players imo and leads to an easy miss that isn't so much the player's fault but rather the poor placing of a jack in the middle of an evenly spread jumptrill. To help resolve this, I'd just remove 00:50:712 (50712|3) - and leave 00:50:712 - as a single.
01:27:173 (87173|0,87231|0) - ^ //fixed the one above but gonna keep this as the note amount around this jack is very light, and the purpose is to give more impact along with the changing music

01:20:308 - I think I prefer the pre-dq pattern in this section more than the current as the previous one was less cluttered and didn't attempt to add awkward releases and visual confusion to the player. Sometimes having a clean pattern that may not be the most technical is better than forcing a nicer difficulty curve for the entire difficulty as a whole (yes, I know everyone is telling you to do that, but in this moment of the song, I disagree with that idea).
//The pre-dq pattern are just triple with 1/2 jacks which doesnt fit the music that well compare with the current pattern, the LNs works really well with the synth sound. And its not that hard to play as it looks, i split the double and the LN on two hand which can be easily handle (even i can play it

01:23:539 - I would only use a single note or something here since there isn't a kick or anything present in the music. Instead, it just loses its intensity in the music for a second, so I think a lighter chord weight would be beneficial to getting that feeling across.

01:28:270 (88270|3,88270|2,88270|0) - Wouldn't it make more sense to use a 1/8 roll here since there's that buzz in the music, similar in sound to 01:41:539 - ? Would honestly try to map it a bit more consistently with the jumpstream at where there's a heavier emphasis on the constant buzzes and changes in rhythm as opposed to simply losing and gaining density all the time.
//this part is hard enough as it should be, mapping the 1/8 here wouldnt really improve this section

01:39:808 (99808|0,99808|1,99866|3,99923|1,99923|2) - Here is a 1/8 roll in the music, so to better represent the complexity of sound in this burst, I would use a simple 1/8 roll like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9385160
//i tend to ignore the 1/8

01:40:039 - For this part, there seems to be a bit of a noticeable break in the sound despite the snap most likely being 1/8 as it's a buzz. Rather than map it with broken 1/8 triplets which are a bit unintuitive and unnatural to play imo, I would simply cover them with an LN similar to Wonki's diff, as it will show the separation between the two sounds visually and in a way that almost gives the player a short rest from the burst. https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9385185
//not really a fan of 1/4 LN as people will just read it as normal note while playing, changed this part but to normal note

01:40:500 (100500|2,100500|1) - Honestly don't see why this is a jump. I know Wonki's diff uses a jump here too but compared to the rest of the sounds in this measure, the synth alone is pretty weak compared to those kicks. I think it'd be best to reduce that down to a single and have it as a very short rest period for the player to get their bearings again after all the 130 BPM jacks and stuff.

01:40:616 (100616|1,100616|0,100673|3,100731|0,100731|1) - Seems a bit unnecessary to have this pattern restricting the player's hand movement when everything else about the burst has been linear and rolling only in one direction.

01:41:539 - I'd recommend here the same thing I recommended at 01:40:039 - as the sound feels too light to truly warrant a 1/8 burst, but I guess it's fine either way since it can be jumptrilled.
//the 1/8 here is totally over the synth and the kick unlike previous part, so yea i think this is here the 1/8 should be mapped

01:42:462 - In this section, I can't really tell why some notes like 01:43:385 - or 01:43:846 - are triples when notes of the same sound (just different pitch) like 01:44:770 - 01:45:231 - 01:45:693 - are doubles only. It would be better to make them consistently sized chords and then just increase the chord size by one at 01:49:846 - for the added kicks in the music.
//only the piano and clap like 02:10:616 - are using double, yea some piano are missing but fixed

02:07:500 (127500|0,127500|1) - Assuming you're trying to emphasize the piano here with the jump, but it's inconsistent with how you've set up the beginning of the section at 02:04:616 - where you do emphasize only the percussion with chords, and the synth is represented with LNs most of the time barring the first two (three?) beats. I'd rather there be jumps at 02:07:154 - 02:07:270 - that you could probs stack to represent the repetition of sound. Also, 02:09:116 - is a jump to represent the kick I assume so :thinking:

02:09:577 (129577|3) - I don't think this should really be an LN. As I mentioned in the above suggestion, from what I can tell, LNs are used solely for the synth sounds, but here there isn't one so it just seems like an added LN for the hell of it. I've broken every single time I test play here due to the sudden release and rehold required here. Since it's just a quiet piano, I think leaving it as a shield would be better.

02:22:500 (142500|0,142616|0) - The pitch here has a larger difference than at 02:20:654 (140654|2,140770|2) - which most players probably wouldn't be able to tell is just slightly different unless they went into the editor, so I would move it to a different column to avoid misleading the player because if they were closely listening to the music for possible pattern cues, this would definitely throw them off unfairly.
02:25:616 (145616|0,145731|0) - likewise

02:26:308 - Seems a bit unnecessary to just throw in jumps when most everything in this build up has been singles with exceptions to new LN presses. Instead, if you wanted to get across the feeling of a growing intensity, I would just add two LNs at most and have an inside trill like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9385280
//the music start to speed up at this point, using trill to build the intensity up can show that very well

02:33:116 (153116|2) - I'd move this to col 2 to match the mini jumpjack pair you have at 02:32:770 -
//it feels more impact if the double are place on two different hand for the cymbal sound, already have 1 note jacked so should be fine

02:33:693 (153693|0) - Don't think a jump is necessary here since everything but the vocal drops out of the music for this one beat in time.
//the vocal is quite catchy tho, one LN feels not enough

02:33:923 - smh, no bumps. I think it'd be nicer to put a larger value at 02:33:923 - and then have the final SV be at 02:33:981 - so the clap in the music is emphasized with a larger jump. Something like 2.5x to 0.5x would be nice I think.
//current sv smooth enough, will leave the 2.5 0/5 for this bit 02:41:308 -

02:46:673 (166673|0,166789|3) - Not sure how I feel about this cause Im pretty sure they're ghosts which, under current rc, is unrankable. Aside from that though, I don't see the point in having them in there if there's no sound in the music. There's a clear and audible break in the music, so to continue the 1/4 rhythm seems a bit unintuitive to the player who would logically expect the chart to follow the song's rhythm.
02:47:135 (167135|3,167366|2,167596|1) - ^ Like, if you're going to add these, ok I guess, but then you leave it out at 02:47:827 - which seems to go against what your layering here suggests.
//the last 1/4 are not mapped is because the cymbal thats after, i want to emphasize that more so will leave a 1/2 break in between

02:52:500 - Think you're missing a note here for the muted hihat type sound.

02:54:923 (174923|2,175385|1,175385|0) - I think it'd be nice to end all these LNs at 02:55:731 - and have a quad at 02:55:846 - to represent the glass breaking sound, and you could even add a small SV similar to 02:33:923 - there too
//quad seems too much for me, the glass breaking sounds are that loud, use double instead

01:16:154 - Similar thing to the above (I modded this out of order which is why it comes so late lol)

03:02:885 (182885|3,183000|0,183039|1,183077|2,183116|3,183231|0) - I'd suggest control H here so that there's an alternating 1-4-1-4 for the bell sound


My main concern is with the two (three?) instances of ghost notes I pointed out towards the end, but additionally the song representation is a bit lacking sometimes and it's probably due to all the different ways people want to see this map going. I would find a base rhythm and stick to it throughout each section consistently, and then maybe you can tack on different parts and instrumentation to see how it plays out, but as it is right now, it's confusing to try and follow what you mapped. LN section at 01:20:308 - is kind of concerning imo though. Anyways, Ill wait for your response and hope we can come to a good compromise between the community and you.

Halogen- wrote:

Overview: This map is poorly constructed from a holistic standpoint. Even if the map was completely correct from start to finish in its objective structural approach, it would still be a rather poor map because it is exceptionally overrated. Before I continue though, I'd like to address something rather important:

YaHao wrote:

Not saying the burst is not spike but at least people wouldnt feel unfair from its SR
Using SR in my argument is because you bring up the topic of player fail on the hard part and feel unfair [...]

I don't know what DD's argument was but I get a feeling just off of this context alone that he was saying the exact opposite of this. The complaints about the spike in difficulty have nothing to do with the fact that those jumptrills are inherently difficult - it has to do with the fact that the jumptrills bring up the star rating to over 6 stars when the rest of the map plays like something substantially easier. The argument has nothing to do with players failing: it has to do with players getting substantial performance point boosts on something that they don't deserve it on. But, I feel that it's necessary to take this a step further and target you specifically: I think that as a beatmap nominator, you are more than aware of the fact that the star rating system is broken. Something tells me that your inherent understanding of this is what is making you keep those massive jumptrill "spikes" in, because you know that it will increase attention to the map overall and make more users play it -- not necessarily because they enjoy it, but because it is a massive PP farm.
//do you really think i care about people's attention at this point?

If you are so insistent on keeping the jumptrills in the map, then you should take a look at other parts of the map outside of the jumptrills and make them harder. That way, the 6* star rating will actually play like a 6* map, not something super easy with a tiny spike.

MOD
- 00:24:920 to 00:32:308
This structure is very unclear; you have repeating doubles for repeating notes in the melody at 00:25:154 and 00:25:385, but then the rest of the section has no doubles at all until the melody restarts. If the doubles are for the purpose of layering hi-hats, then there are doubles missed at 00:25:962 and 00:26:077 - however, I doubt that was the purpose here. Your incorrect representation of the melody continues until the end of the section.
//they are for synth sound, similar with with what i did in Normal, only the catchy part are been doubled

00:26:770 - four repeating [24] jumps when the pitch changes; you can make room by shortening the LN that ends here, but I get a feeling you'll no change that so I'll move on
//changed

00:32:885 (32885|1) - according to your structure, see: 00:33:808 (33808|2) / 00:35:654 (35654|1), etc, you're clearly following the hi-hats. This means that, at the absolute minimum the following notes should become doubles: 00:32:885 (32885|1) / 00:33:346 (33346|1) / 00:34:731 (34731|2) / 00:37:039 (37039|1)
//no to this, as i'm not doubling the hihat

00:38:885 (38885|0,38885|3,39000|1,39000|2,39116|2,39116|1) - all of these should be triples, as they are synth, kick, and cymbals played at the same time, according to your earlier structure

00:40:154 (40154|1) - move LN to 1 instead of 2, since the last LN is the same note in pitch
//pitch is not the focusing here, if i place the short LN all pitch relevant, the pattern will be quite hard to play

00:40:731 (40731|0) - missing LN (as mentioned in earlier notes, you're missing a note in the representation of your melody)
//i'm sure here got no main sound which i was following

00:40:731 (40731|0,40731|3) and 00:40:846 (40846|3,40846|2) - why aren't these triples? you have triples for every earlier instance of kick + synth + cymbal in this section. if your answer is that you're trying to follow the melody, you just did two consecutive triple + LN combinations at 00:40:385 and 00:40:500 - surely more relevance couldn't hurt, right?
//like my last explanation, i'm sure 00:40:731 - got no synth sound, there is clearly a break in between, and the triple was used for double for kick + one LN for the synth sound

00:42:577 (42577|1,42577|0,42577|3) - ^, this note above is for the same structure musically (two synth notes, two kicks, among other things) and is a partial indicator that layering is not sound because the pitch is the only slightly discernible thing - which would be a valid argument for you if not for the fact that...
//this one got synth, thats why its triple

00:46:270 (46270|3,46270|0,46270|1,46385|2,46385|3,46385|0) - you actually utilized two triples for the same exact two notes, two kicks, literally the same everything; there's not even an indicator that this is a musical transition into the next section at this point, so there's literally no excuse. fix your layering. Add the missing LN as well.
/why its triple, 2 note for the kick sound (this one is easy to get), and one extra note for the synth sound, yes i know they were mapped as LN in the previous part but i tend to simplify the LN to normal note before the 1/4 like what i did here 00:42:923 -

00:42:923 - missing LN for melody //^

00:43:385 (43385|1,43385|0) - make this a triple (kick + synth + cymbal, plus it's a musical accent and would be more correct anyway)
//then there will be so little room for the next note, i will have to place two 1/2 jack on the same hand

00:47:654 (47654|2,47654|1) - since your triples are accenting the melody on top of the kicks here, this one should be as well
//how is this become the main sound, like my LN part, they are the 100% same rhythm and you were fine with it not being LN (00:43:962 - )

00:48:116 (48116|3,48116|2) - theoretically this one should be as well but I can see you saying no change to this because of the LN release, even though there's an open column so I won't really fight much about that

00:48:923 (48923|0,48923|3) - remove a note from the [23] that is 1/4 away from this so that you can make this [14] a triple that holds your layering relevance together a bit more
//to me the double on the previous 1/4 line is more important

00:50:712 (50712|3,50770|3) - 260 BPM 1/4 mini-jacks are a no-no unless the entire map's structure/motif is intended to have mini-jacks all over the place (see: Blastix Riotz) - if you're keeping this triple because of the cymbal crash, then remove the 4 here

00:52:212 (52212|3,52327|0,52673|0,52904|3) - i've listened to this in Audacity where the pitch can be reduced to prevent time-stretching, unlike the osu! editor; there are not any hi-hat notes here or anything of the sort that merits this being a temporarily unbroken stream. I personally don't mind these notes being here, but if we're adhering to current ranking criteria, then these notes need to be removed since they're not following anything.
//can hear the sound on left channel, not hihat but like wub/echo sound, the notes are added so player can have a "continuing" feeling on the pattern unlike 00:52:270 - which can easily hear the break on the rhythm

01:02:308 (62308|2) and 01:03:231 (63231|0) - if you're following the subtle snare hits, then you're missing notes at 01:03:577 / 01:05:423 / 01:07:270 / etc

01:04:500 (64500|1,64500|3) - this double is not accenting anything at all; your repeated notes on 4 are, remove the note on 2.

01:10:616 (70616|0) - incorrectly placed LN for what is presumably the melody, should be 1/2 back

01:10:846 (70846|3) - your entire structure in this section places doubles explicitly to the kick and triples for the snare, so this and 01:14:539 (74539|1) should be removed for consistency purposes

01:12:462 (72462|1) - incorrectly placed LN for what is presumably the melody, should be 1/2 back

01:14:308 (74308|0) - ^
//these part has been remapped from sheep's mod, and yea i double check it from your mod, its all been fixed

01:17:539 (77539|1,77539|2,77539|0) - literally no reason for this triple at all, this entire section is free from percussion and only has the synth playing in octave intervals on 1/2 notes with the exception of the first note in each phrase, so the layering should stay 100% consistent through here

01:19:385 - ^
//the first sound of the repeated melody

01:21:923 (81923|1,81923|0) - having this double at the end of the section makes no sense given the rest of your structure, becuase the player is smashing doubles for kicks between melody-oriented LN and there's no kick here

01:23:654 (83654|3) - if you're gonna put this barely audible note here, then you should be adding a note at 01:23:885 which is arguably louder - hint: don't do either of these, just remove the note here

01:25:616 - again, jump for nothing super audible here

01:27:231 (87231|3,87231|0) - this note's barely got anything to it compared to the other two notes after it and every subsequent kick before it, make this a single note and break that implicit 1/4 mini-jack, it doesn't need to be there and has no musical merit in the first place
//the kick sound (which mapped as 1/4 trill) are stopped 1/4 ahead of the [14], if i'm keeping the double and make them [34], that will be so wrong because the sounds are totally different, a 1/4 jack here is to show that sudden break on the rhythm, plus the pattern around it are quite easy, shouldnt be hard to play

01:28:154 (88154|1,88154|3,88154|0) - I can understand the [134] triple immediately after this note, but this note itself has no reason to be a triple

01:30:000 (90000|0,90000|3,90000|1) - ^
//you can hear cymbal sound on both timing

actually, something even better worth noting: you used a 1/8 blip at 00:51:577 (51577|3) earlier in the song for an overtoned kick, you have an opportunity to use them at 01:28:270 (88270|0,88270|2,88270|3) / 01:28:500 (88500|0,88500|2,88500|3), etc.
//i only used 1/8 3 times in this diff as 1/8 with high BPM like this are usually plays really bad, the least thing i want to do here is to mix the 1/4 with 1/8

01:38:770 (98770|0,98770|3) - so, you go ahead and use jumptrills in an earlier section, but in another intense spot, you use a pseudo-rolling jumpstream with doubles every 1/2? add 1/2 doubles for the melody and then place your 1/4 stream around it or something, this is a completely wasted section of the map.
//smth thats playable is better than pattern that only looks fancy but less enjoyable, at least for me, this part is remapped, will see how that work

01:40:154 (100154|3,100183|2,100212|0,100212|1,100270|3,100298|2,100327|1,100327|0) - if you're going to go out of your way to accent THESE particular kicks that are overtoned, then you'd best be adding the ones at 01:39:808 (99808|0,99808|1) and 01:40:039 (100039|3,100039|2) considering they're much more noticeable
//there are all triple now after i remapped it yesterday

01:41:077 (101077|1,101077|2) - more really fast kicks here; you can use 1/8 here to be accurate, or you can do an abrasive pattern like a 1/4 trill to indicate that you're paying attention to the sound, or something

01:58:270 (118270|1) / 01:58:500 (118500|0) - lone piano note as a single here, but you have them as doubles at 02:00:116 (120116|0,120116|3) / 02:01:731 (121731|2,121731|3,121962|1,121962|2) / etc. This section is inconsistently structured as well.

01:58:846 (118846|0) / 02:00:693 (120693|3) - what makes this LN stand out that it gets accented over the other ignored notes? The piano serves fine as an accent every two beats, it’s clear and to the point. These other LN feel like they’re arbitrary and ill-conceived additions.

01:59:308 (119308|3) / 02:01:154 (121154|0) / 02:03:000 (123000|0) / etc - additionally, instances where there are only single notes for chime + piano (direct layering) exist as well

02:04:500 (124500|0,124500|3,124558|2,124616|0,124616|1,124616|3) - if the connected 1/4 are supposed to be for the piano, it's the incorrect rhythm; the intervals are 3/16 each, so your three piano notes are 02:04:572 and 02:04:529 in addition to the location of the triple
//change to 1/6 which i feel more accurate

02:04:962 (124962|2) - double for melody according to your structure

02:05:885 - missing piano note

02:07:731 (127731|1) - lovely little grace note in the piano that can be added to your map for some nice detail

02:07:154 (127154|0,127270|1) - I understand using singles for something that was previously doubles when you’re holding a LN, but if that’s the case, why is the piano of all things getting precedence in this section at 02:07:500 (127500|1,127500|0)? There’s piano notes earlier on at 02:05:654 (125654|2) that are singles, and hell, as mentioned earlier, you missed one at 02:05:885, yet at 02:07:500, it’s a double when there’s no other instrument playing aside from the LN which accents the melody? More proof that this structure is not clear from the get-go, neither on an accenting front, nor a layering/structural front.
//fixed

02:07:270 (127270|1) - in a situation like this where you’re holding an LN and constrained to three keys, you should be keeping your instrument relevance tight. Make this 2 a 1 so that you’ve got repeated notes for the repeated kicks without adding layering.

02:09:000 (129000|0) - ^ - since for some reason the pianos are doubles here too…?

02:09:577 (129577|3) - you spent the earlier part of this section accenting the synth here, this LN stands out like a sore thumb and should be removed

02:12:577 - you continue to miss this pretty clear note in the melody
//i wouldnt use "pretty clear" on this sound, i didnt map it because there is a break on the melody, and as the 1/2 slowly comes in, then i mapped them fully

02:14:885 (134885|2) - according to your structure, this should be a double to follow the melody; if your doubles are supposed to only be following kicks (which i’m sure they’re not), then this structure is very much incorrect in terms of layering

02:16:270 (136270|2) - more proof that you’re missing the note at 02:12:577, among other areas; again, why is this not a double?

From this point to the end, it’s basically the same stuff as mentioned in the beginning as it’s a direct copy/paste/rotation with the exception of the tail end not having the barrage of 1/4 streaming for the kicks, which comes with it, all of the issues mentioned earlier on.

02:48:116 (168116|0) - this section has some percussion that can be accounted for; you went through “hassle” to make this map hard, you might as well take the time to accommodate for everything that you can
//the music start to calm down right after the kiai, making some high intense pattern whouldnt do anything good to this section

02:50:193 (170193|1) - make a double, it’s got the quiet snare and the piano, both of which seem to be doubles at random points, so you might as well at least give your randomness some merit

02:52:039 (172039|1) / 02:53:885 (173885|1) / 02:54:231 (174231|2) - ^

02:56:308 (176308|1,176308|0,176308|3,176308|2) - oh look more lazy copy/paste/rotate stuff and with it comes the errors as well, so i’m gonna mirror the laziness and tell you to look at my note for 01:10:846 and apply it accordingly since there’s no musical reason to have triples in this section outside of the crash
//funny enough here is like the less copy paste i've done in this map, if you understand it just say the word, instead of calling it a mistake, can also look at my respond for 01:10:846

03:00:000 (180000|3,180000|1,180000|0,180000|2) - quad here? If you’re so concerned about separating the previous LN, make them doubles so that your triple for the kick + synth + crash cymbal keep your structure consistent
//they are already quad here

03:01:616 (181616|0,181616|1) - this note is less important musically than the upcoming crash cymbal, shorten this LN so you can make the next note a triple/quad to give the accent it deserves

OK SO WITH THAT OUT OF THE WAY - I’m going to give you my thoughts from both a high-level player, and a mapper.

Player: this map is not really fun to play through. It’s literally a massive difficulty spike in two short sections of the map, and that’s about it. The redundancy of the melody makes the song play a lot longer than it really should, and the map does nothing to provide me something to keep me interested in the second half - when I got to the repeat of the opening melody and basically repeated exactly what I played for the first part of it (I double-checked, it was damn near a copy paste for the bridge into the second repeat of the chorus), I basically assumed that the actual melody itself was going to play almost exactly the same as it did the first time, which is a bad thing — I have low expectations to begin with because you didn’t even try to differentiate the patterns beyond pretty noticeable rotation.

Mapper: in my personal opinion, this map is absolutely awful, and for a lot of the reasons I mentioned on the player side. The song has some repetition to it, and you couldn’t even be bothered to give the player something new in the second repeat of the melody — yes, I get that it’s the same, but if you were going to just waste the player’s time by literally repeating the same exact construction with the same exact mistakes, you would have been better off cutting the song and making it so that the player gets only the things that differ, not more of the same. There are many noticeable issues with the map just looking at your structure. I didn’t even base most of my notes off of what I thought, I literally analyzed your structure and inferred what was going on, and often times it was unclear as to what you were doing. That’s why I took the time to say “if you’re doing x, then you should be accenting y, because you did this and this to z, etc.”

There’s no room for you to say “no change” anymore. Take a look at your map, figure out how to construct it in a way that is actually coherent and enjoyable, and stop rejecting legitimate and viable suggestions from people who are taking the time to actually mod your map. I’ve scrutinized this map from start to finish, and I’ll say this: if you think this is even remotely good, or ready for rank, you’re wrong.

Halogen- wrote:

YaHao wrote:

5 days later

i've got a full time job, go to school, have two kids, and other various responsibilities outside of arguing with an inconsiderate beatmapper who wants to have their way and no one else's way, sorry that i put my response to you on the backburner - tbh, you're barely worth the time as it is.

You are the one who said will be back respond my mod, and I respect that so i didnt do any update in the past 5 days. Then here you are saying I'm not worth the time, maybe i should just ignore you and move on my map, save more time for both of us.

anyway:

YaHao wrote:

//do you really think i care about people's attention at this point?

you're a beatmap nominator. you should understand the process of submitting a beatmap through the system and that you're going to get critiques from people to make your map better. not giving a shit about what anyone thinks is the exact opposite of that, you're basically admitting that you're incapable of accepting change - if you wanted to defend yourself, you should be using logic, not your own opinion.

Like i'm not familiar with the ranking process that i need you to remind me. I reject mod because they are wrong, and i even explain why i didnt change it, not like i just leave a big No Change and thats it. Too bad your mod were rejected

YaHao wrote:

//they are for synth sound, similar with with what i did in Normal, only the catchy part are been doubled

"only the catchy part are doubled" - so basically an excuse to cover your inconsistencies; you have a LN + double for the "catchy" part in the first half of the section at 00:24:923 (24923|2,24923|3,24923|1,25154|3,25154|1,25385|2,25385|3) - but you just decide arbitrarily, mid-section, to not do it at 00:25:731 (25731|3,25731|0) - when the music is still presented in the same way; you're also saying that this random note at the end of the section is "catchy" 00:26:539 (26539|0,26539|1) - your structure is not sound and you don't want to admit it.

"Inconsistencies", the two part 00:24:923 - and 00:25:731 - are totally different, thats why the pattern is different, 00:26:770 - Here however has the same sound so i used same pattern structure. Ofc i wouldnt admit something thats not even there

YaHao wrote:

//no to this, as i'm not doubling the hihat

i'm more than aware you're not doubling the hi-hat, that's why i mentioned this in my note ("however, I doubt that was the purpose here"); you're doing no favors trying to tell me that you're not doubling the hi-hat when I'm already aware of that. what i'm telling you is that your structure is inconsistent because you're accenting arbitrary notes with jumps and not sticking to a coherent sequence

YaHao wrote:

//pitch is not the focusing here, if i place the short LN all pitch relevant, the pattern will be quite hard to play

... this is like, a total example of you just refusing things because you want to. the LN in question is on a 2 when i'm telling you to move it to a 1, and the previous LN is also on a 1. this would make the pattern easier to read and easier to play, not harder. reminder that i'm a very high level 4-key player that has been judging content here and on other games for a long time, and can easily tell you what works and what doesn't, if you're willing to listen.

Like i cant play this section or judge the playability of this pattern. Again, the pitch is not the focusing here, and the current pattern plays fine and not hard to read

YaHao wrote:

//i'm sure here got no main sound which i was following

you're leaving out a main component of the melody. by the way, here's all the relevant notes:
(i mean, if you want to argue more i could export the mp3 of the synth that i used and you can play it side-by-side if you want incontrovertible evidence)

Feel free to do so, I'm not adding the LN because the sound is not significant enough, we are making a map not a music sample note

YaHao wrote:

//like my last explanation, i'm sure 00:40:731 - got no synth sound, there is clearly a break in between, and the triple was used for double for kick + one LN for the synth sound

like i'm saying, you're wrong and you're arguing with someone who not only has made content for a while but also takes the time to produce music once in a while, i already disproved your point about the melody so let's stop dancing around that, fix it to be two triples so it's more accurate; any responses to my notes about you missing a note in the melody are correct and you're not hearing it. apply the notes as I listed or come up with a fix that includes the note in those gaps filled.

Using things like "i make music" "i'm pro at playing 4k blah blah blah" doesnt make your mod/point more value to me.

YaHao wrote:

//then there will be so little room for the next note, i will have to place two 1/2 jack on the same hand

... are you serious? your whole layering sequence is into and out of triples, there are implicit 1/2 jacks everywhere. if you're legitimately concerned about that, the 1/4 that you're using are for kicks, which are in this instance atonal and don't have a pitch. switch the pattern to [14] 2 4 3 [124], then it's not only separated but also avoids the additional chaining of 3.

Because its 1/2 jacks everywhere, so avoiding unnecessary 1/2 jacks is more important instead of abusing them, the new pattern suggestion seems good for me, changed

YaHao wrote:

//how is this become the main sound, like my LN part, they are the 100% same rhythm and you were fine with it not being LN (00:43:962 - )

i implied on my note at 40:731 - that you were missing a LN there and then reiterated that it was a result of you missing a note for the melody in your entire structure; i wasn't ok with it, i just wasn't going to hold your hand and tell you every single time that you're missing a note for the melody, you're capable of putting things together and realizing that you have to correct repeated instances of things, come on now. you're putting your laziness clear on display and you're being defensive over a point that was covered; drop it.

Then why you didnt point out the LN first in the earlier section, I dont hear any melody here

YaHao wrote:

//to me the double on the previous 1/4 line is more important

so, you’re saying the double which only represents a kick and nothing else is more important than the note that has a cymbal crash, bass kick, and a melodic element that you clearly represent as triples in this same combination earlier. got it.

Yup

YaHao wrote:

//can hear the sound on left channel, not hihat but like wub/echo sound, the notes are added so player can have a "continuing" feeling on the pattern unlike 00:52:270 - which can easily hear the break on the rhythm

there's no sound here on either channel at all. there's no hi-hat, there's no kick, there's not even really any sort of granularity that merits you even putting a sound here; the only thing that even gives you any sort of defense is that the synth notes hold out that long, but there's nothing else here. there's literally no difference between 00:52:270 - and 00:52:673 (52673|0) or 00:52:904 (52904|0) or even 00:53:135 - where you actually opt into a break. yet again, you're just making stuff up rather than taking suggestions. there's no need for continuation here at all.

00:52:270 - 00:52:846 - They are different in so many way, the synth is different, the kick clearly has a break in between. And its the last section of the kiai, using continuation here can build the intensity up as the song itself goes up

YaHao wrote:

//the first sound of the repeated melody

so again, no real reason. you're subjectively choosing the first note of the melody as more important than the rest of the melody when every individual note is being played at the same volume, with the same instrumental backing (that backing being pretty much nothing aside from the occasional cymbal). structurally, your triples make no sense at all. you're implying another musical/layering element or some sort of accenting within your current musical element, neither of which are happening.

The triple are not randomly added, yes i do think its more important than other same sound because its the first sound of the repeated melody

YaHao wrote:

//the kick sound (which mapped as 1/4 trill) are stopped 1/4 ahead of the [14], if i'm keeping the double and make them [34], that will be so wrong because the sounds are totally different, a 1/4 jack here is to show that sudden break on the rhythm, plus the pattern around it are quite easy, shouldnt be hard to play

you didn't read my note properly. i said it should be a single note after the [12][34] jumptrill; you have your [12][34] for your kicks, but the next note at 01:27:231 (87231|3,87231|0) - is barely audible at normal rate as it is, and is not a kick, either. it shouldn't hold the same representation. the reasoning behind having this as a [14] is indefensible because there's only one sound (one layer = one note) and the sound in question is comparatively quiet to the previous blast of kicks you just had (if your super loud kicks are doubles, then this super quiet, single instrument has literally no reason to be anything but a single note).

Are you serious about the sound not audible? Its not kick thats what make it special compare with the previous [12][34] trills which for kick. Mapping is not just about kick double cymbal triple and others just using single

YaHao wrote:

//you can hear cymbal sound on both timing

fair enough, this one I did actually get wrong; I can definitely hear them. I'm not sure why I didn't hear them the first time.

YaHao wrote:

//i only used 1/8 3 times in this diff as 1/8 with high BPM like this are usually plays really bad, the least thing i want to do here is to mix the 1/4 with 1/8

fair enough, i didn't say this was a required change, it was a suggestion

YaHao wrote:

//smth thats playable is better than pattern that only looks fancy but less enjoyable, at least for me, this part is remapped, will see how that work

still a pretty lame, pseudo-rolly jumpstream. not fun to play through but if that's how you want to approach it, that's your subjective opinion - it's acceptable objectively.

YaHao wrote:

//there are all triple now after i remapped it yesterday

your response to this note and what i'm seeing in the map shows that you might not have understood what I was saying... but what you changed it to is actually ok. the doubles for the accented buzzes at 01:40:212 (100212|1,100212|0,100327|0,100327|1) - are a good choice

01:41:539 (101539|0) - you create an entry that requires you to use the same hand as the previous jump - not sure if this was intentional or just not changed, but something i figured i'd tell you

CTRL+H

YaHao wrote:

//change to 1/6 which i feel more accurate

it's 3/16 but if you want to approximate to 1/6, that's on you; 1/6 is not the correct rhythm but it's close enough that most people won't notice anyway

YaHao wrote:

//i wouldnt use "pretty clear" on this sound, i didnt map it because there is a break on the melody, and as the 1/2 slowly comes in, then i mapped them fully

see screenshot above

YaHao wrote:

//the music start to calm down right after the kiai, making some high intense pattern whouldnt do anything good to this section

what exactly is the structure here starting at 02:48:923 (168923|0,168923|3) - ? what are you following and what are your doubles - are you arbitrarily picking notes from the melody to follow? if so, I can... kinda see what you're going for, I guess

YaHao wrote:

//funny enough here is like the less copy paste i've done in this map, if you understand it just say the word, instead of calling it a mistake, can also look at my respond for 01:10:846

ok fine, not copy/paste but it's still the same arbitrary concept of utilizing triples in a way that it isn't needed, and you're still wrong about the melody as well (see screenshot).

YaHao wrote:

//they are already quad here

mmmmmk. my bad.

----------

so yeah, you've still got work to do.

Halogen- wrote:

"Then here you are saying I'm not worth the time, maybe I should just ignore you and move on my map, save more time for both of us."

You're basically proving why you're not worth the time. You're responding with "is that so" in a condescending matter when I stated that there were plenty of noticeable things that were identified. You're saying "maybe I should just ignore you and move on my map, save more time for both of us" as a defensive response, as opposed to considering things for the betterment of your map that I'm willing to bet anyone out of your little circlejerk would agree with. I present things in a way that doesn't require me to have any backup/defense from anyone else - and I present things in a way that anyone who has an understanding of content creation/mapping would likely understand in terms of thought process. You don't do that.

You're not saving time for both of us, I've already taken the time to create two really long responses to you. You'd be saving yourself time by being lazy and refusing to do anything. Sitting there and say "maybe I should ignore you" is exceptional proof that you are hard-set in your ways and not willing to make your map better.

If i'm being lazy, i will just add/delete few notes to satisfy you guys, instead of replying this long mod and repeat myself day after day.


Put up or shut up, then. Find another beatmap nominator who isn't Fresh Chicken, considering he came into this thread and bubbled something AFTER people said there were noticeable issues, and have them look at the things that I've mentioned. I've given them all of the stuff they need to look for and identify as potentially erroneous (hell, I could have easily come up with much more but I didn't really spend all that much time working on it, and it's a good thing that I didn't given the way you're responding). I'm willing to bet that they'll hear the melodic elements that I'm identifying, and if not, I'm willing to bet that they would make a coherent response with analysis of your structure.

Now you start attacking the BN huh? The "Noticeable issue" were replied by me, either i agree with them or not, i explain myself well enough and wait for 7days for people who wants drop mod or any farther feedback. No one show up then i asked FC to recheck the map

- 00:24:920 to 00:32:308
This structure is very unclear; you have repeating doubles for repeating notes in the melody at 00:25:154 and 00:25:385, but then the rest of the section has no doubles at all until the melody restarts. If the doubles are for the purpose of layering hi-hats, then there are doubles missed at 00:25:962 and 00:26:077 - however, I doubt that was the purpose here. Your incorrect representation of the melody continues until the end of the section.

"Inconsistencies", the two part 00:24:923 - and 00:25:731 - are totally different, thats why the pattern is different, 00:26:770 - Here however has the same sound so i used same pattern structure. Ofc i wouldnt admit something thats not even there
Just gonna copy paste what i said and put it here again

Halogen- wrote:

[...] but then the rest of the section has no doubles at all until the melody restarts. [...]

To anyone else who has been reading my mods, does my first mod somehow not make it clear that I understand that the structures are separated? Because I'm starting to feel like I'm being treated as if I don't comprehend the map's structure at all when I've made it super clear that I have more than analyzed and scrutinized this stuff. I will repeat myself again with the issue of this section: you are arbitrarily assigning precedence to pieces of melodic elements and not the whole thing. Your double placement in the earlier section makes no sense at all. If you can't follow through with a layering structure for a section in a way that is coherent, you should be changing it. You can sit here and argue all you want, and you can sit here and say "no change" to this all you want, but realize that this section of the map is being interpreted as erroneous through objective analysis of your own structure, not of my opinion about how it should be done.


Nowhere did I say that you could or couldn't. What I'm saying is that I'm high enough level of a player to tell you that your pattern selection could be improved to better accommodate for a melodic element of the song, and therefore be intersubjectively improved, and you're just settling with what you have. Realize that if you're accommodating for a melodic element of a song, opportunities for pitch relevance should be taken because it makes the map carry more of a resemblance to the music itself.

You were imply that I didnt test the map and have no knowledge about the pattern playability.


"We are making a map not a music sample note"

What I provided in the screenshot above was an identification of the main melody that you were following with your LN; I did it to show you that I had literally transcribed the melody for you, so that you could actually see that the note was in fact there. Yet again, you're hyper-defensive and going "we're making a map not a music sample note." I put that in there to defend my modding decision because I'm trying to help you make the map better. If you don't want your stuff to be more representative of the music, that is entirely on you. And something else that I'd like to point out, actually:

"Because the sound is not significant enough" - so, you've gone from saying that there's no sound at all for the melody to it being "not significant enough." Thanks for basically saying "well, it's here but I don't want to accommodate for it anyway." Modding is to help improve your map - I was able to identify that you were targeting the synth lead in the song and offered a suggestion while informing you that you mispresented the melody. If you want to sit here and ignore something that would make your structure more clear, that's on you, but do us all a favor and don't pretend like it was intentionally avoided, considering you basically admitted in your words that it wasn't. You've made mistakes in representing melodies in this song before; both Protastic and I nailed you for the same thing.

Because you provide the sample note of that section so i assume its correct so i change my word from "There is no sound" to "Not significant enough". The sound was not intentionally ignored as I didnt hear it in the first place not gonna lie, the sound really soft


I'm offering myself as someone who has expertise in both playing the game, and as someone who has an extremely well-trained ear to help you identify things that you've missed. You're refusing it. That is entirely your choice and if an expert's opinion isn't more valuable to you, that's to your detriment.

Given that there are constant discussions about beatmap nominators and their capability of playing the content that they are qualifying/creating, I figured it would be worthwhile to say "hey, I'm able to play your stuff without trouble, if people are saying this is stupid/hard, let me tell you whether or not it is a viable selection." If you want to see that as flaunting my skill around, be my guest.

Mod is mod, its not about who you are. If a #10k player give me a value mod, i will still consider and reply properly

You don't hear it, but it is in fact there. I don't know how else I can convey it to you.


There you have it, guys. This is the kind of thing that I'm talking about with regards to people just doing what they want and not listening to reason.

To those of you mappers who utilize a direct layering structure and base your note placement off of the number of instruments playing, does my note above make sense to you? And to those of you who are more accent-oriented, and base your structures based off of instrumental volumes and overall precedence in their instrumentation? Does my note make sense to you? I'd like to think that regardless of the situation here, this is a perfect example of an indefensible error being ignored simply because they want what they want, and that's it.

You pointed out that i'm using triple for synth, but pls be aware that i'm also keeping the double for the kick thru this section. Just because our priority on sound are different, doesnt mean which one is correct which one is not. There is no right or wrong on this.


There's no synth at 00:52:270 (52270|2,52270|1) - , the note itself plays at 00:52:154 (52154|0,52154|1) - and continues playing once every 1/1 with a melody that goes down one pitch, up two pitches, rinse and repeat, until 00:53:077 (53077|3,53077|2) - . Nothing else happens. Just because it's the last section of the kiai doesn't give you the ability to just add notes wherever you feel like it in this current ranking criteria.

will take a step back on this, change to LN, see how that work out


Well, at the very least, now I've gotten you to admit that you are giving random notes more precedence within their given phrase when there is no other merit for adding layering at all. As I've mentioned before (for anyone else who wants to follow along without opening the editor/game), you have these notes in a section where there's literally nothing going on aside from an occasional cymbal crash + bass kick, which would give you the justification for triples/quads with direct and accent-oriented layering, given that you have doubles for every other melodic element in the section aside from the clearly erroneous and arbitrary triples added "just because they're the first notes of the melody." Players that are playing your map might be able to detect pattern sequences that indicate pitch relevance through your double placement, but they're not going to understand why you've gone from doubles to triples when nothing has been added/changed.

Like i said, "Just because our priority on sound are different, doesnt mean which one is correct which one is not" You get my idea, so at least keep a open mind on this


I never said the sound wasn't audible, I said that it was barely audible, i.e. it's quiet. And by the way:


In my mod, and my responses to you, I've mentioned that "if you are doing x, then y should be this, this and this, based off of your structure." I'll tactlessly tell you one more time: stop treating me and other people like we don't know what you're talking about. When you're making obvious mistakes like misrhythms of easily noticeable melodic elements in your first pass, you're in no place to tell me how to mod your map.

You also in no place to tell me how to make my map, smth that you cant understand doesnt mean its wrong

To everyone that is reading this mod: as tactless as I am in my responses to people, my aim is to typically aid/assist in the map's progress. I hope that this at least open's some of your guys' eyes about the kind of mapper that you're dealing with here.