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The best way to play the game

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abraker

Brian OA wrote:

abraker wrote:

mania user here. What do I get?
Nothing
Thank you. I will cherish your gift of nothing until I die
Rwyta
Why Tablet-chan is so far away?







and why is she not naked?
GSG95

Allmynamestaken wrote:

and why is she not naked?
perhaps the most important question of all
winber1
its part of the dlc package
Erlkonig
tablet-chan looks terrified
WavePoint
No words. No regrets.
thelewa
"“Play More” or "Keep Playing" is an extremely vague quote that doesn't help any player specifically."

Verily so, the only advice that's actually helpful is "try thinking for yourself". If you are incapable of doing that much, you are incapable of improving.

osu! is a great test of intelligence. Anyone incapable of getting good at it is an idiot. I'm not saying that the ones that are good at clicking circles or playing other games are especially smart or anything, but at least they're capable of figuring things out for themselves. They're not idiots.
picky picky_old

thelewa wrote:

"“Play More” or "Keep Playing" is an extremely vague quote that doesn't help any player specifically."

Verily so, the only advice that's actually helpful is "try thinking for yourself". If you are incapable of doing that much, you are incapable of improving.

osu! is a great test of intelligence. Anyone incapable of getting good at it is an idiot. I'm not saying that the ones that are good at clicking circles or playing other games are especially smart or anything, but at least they're capable of figuring things out for themselves.
stop
thelewa
what part did you disagree with?
Blitzfrog

thelewa wrote:

what part did you disagree with?
Fastest way to learn is by getting taught
thelewa
Not in osu!. How is someone going to teach you how to properly move the pen or the mouse in a way optimal to the way your hand is? How is someone going to teach you to make new nerve connections allowing for faster movement of fingers? How is someone going to teach you to process the visual information received? These are all things that you cannot receive help with. They're things you have to figure out for yourself.
Blitzfrog

thelewa wrote:

Not in osu!. How is someone going to teach you how to properly move the pen or the mouse in a way optimal to the way your hand is? How is someone going to teach you to make new nerve connections allowing for faster movement of fingers? How is someone going to teach you to process the visual information received? These are all things that you cannot receive help with. They're things you have to figure out for yourself.

ye olde OT
Foxtrot

thelewa wrote:

Not in osu!. How is someone going to teach you how to properly move the pen or the mouse in a way optimal to the way your hand is? How is someone going to teach you to make new nerve connections allowing for faster movement of fingers? How is someone going to teach you to process the visual information received? These are all things that you cannot receive help with. They're things you have to figure out for yourself.
It takes repitition to acquire those motor skills, because that's what they are at the end of the day. I don't think it requires logic. So no, the "play more" advice is not too vague in my opinion. For example, you could know anything about the piano, right? But if you never sit down and nurture your motor skills, you'd be a horrible player. An idiot could sit down and do the same thing every day, but that doesn't mean they'll actually learn the technical side of clicking circles (if there even is one. I am not an expert on this and I haven't even played the game in a while.)
Blitzfrog

Foxtrot wrote:

It takes repitition to acquire those motor skills, because that's what they are at the end of the day. I don't think it requires logic. So no, the "play more" advice is not too vague in my opinion. For example, you could know anything about the piano, right? But if you never sit down and nurture your motor skills, you'd be a horrible player. An idiot could sit down and do the same thing every day, but that doesn't mean they'll actually learn the technical side of clicking circles (if there even is one. I am not an expert on this and I haven't even played the game in a while.)
Because piano teachers are useless people
Foxtrot
Do piano teachers literally grab your hands and make you play the piano? No, they teach you about the technicality of the instrument so you can read the notes and know which key to press. But if you gain all that knowledge and don't practice it, it's pretty much useless

Didn't you claim to be logical, Blitz? I'm surprised to see such a reaction out of you
thelewa
You still have to be present and guide your developing motor skills. You can get better at doing the wrong thing just as easily as you can get better at doing the right thing.
Foxtrot
But since we're specifically talking about osu!, how stupid do you have to be to not comprehend that you're supposed to click the circles at the rhythm of the song? You're just a vegetable at that point. Bad osu! players do realize what they must do, but they fail because their motor skills are not as refined as someone who has been playing for months. I've never seen anybody play osu! in the "wrong way" and that's because it'd completely impossible for you to play the game in a different way than it was originally meant.
Blitzfrog

Foxtrot wrote:

Didn't you claim to be logical, Blitz? I'm surprised to see such a reaction out of you
Who said I'm logical, I'm Blitzfrog
thelewa

Foxtrot wrote:

But since we're specifically talking about osu!, how stupid do you have to be to not comprehend that you're supposed to click the circles at the rhythm of the song? You're just a vegetable at that point. Bad osu! players do realize what they must do, but they fail because their motor skills are not as refined as someone who has been playing for months. I've never seen anybody play osu! in the "wrong way" and that's because it'd completely impossible for you to play the game in a different way than it was originally meant.
You'd have to be an idiot

The repetition you do in playing osu! will also have varying degrees of effectiveness when it comes to improvement and it all comes down to what you, as the player, are doing while playing the game. If you're playing the game absent mindedly just thinking that the more playcount you accumulate the better you will become, you're in for a disappointment. While the gameplay itself is very simple, getting better at it is something that requires effort other than just playing the game. You have to be constantly paying attention to how you play the game, while constantly figuring out new ways to do the simple movements required better, more efficiently.

It doesn't necessarily require logic, but it does require a kind of self-discipline. The capacity to pay attention and the will to put in some effort without just pretending and crying to the good players about you not getting any better despite how much you've been pretending. Intelligence isn't just logic. It's the ability to properly utilize every faculty you have at hand. What good is sharp wit if you lack self-discipline and the ability to focus? Nowadays it seems to be a common belief that if you can't pay attention, there's nothing to be done about it other than taking some ADHD medication.

Edit: Oh, and to not cause any confusion: I strongly believe that anyone can easily get to my level at this game in way less time than what it took me. Talent doesn't exist in this game. The people who are good at this game are good at this because they're good at getting good at things. Which is something anyone can learn.
Blitzfrog
This drama for me has thelewa as the main character and Foxtrot as the bad dragon
thelewa
Foxtrot raises valid points and his insight is highly appreciated.

What drama?
Blitzfrog

thelewa wrote:

What drama?
The crimson knight and the flying dragon
Topic Starter
Bweh
The best advice I would offer would be to have fun
Blitzfrog

Brian OA wrote:

The best advice I would offer would be to have fun
Having fun is not good for your brain. Life is all about having as much misery as possible
Topic Starter
Bweh
Based on?
Blitzfrog

Brian OA wrote:

Based on?
Brian OA
Topic Starter
Bweh
You must have me mixed up with someone else
Blitzfrog
Ahh it was Brian OT, my bad
Railey2

thelewa wrote:

I'm not saying that the ones that are good at clicking circles or playing other games are especially smart or anything

thelewa wrote:

Talent doesn't exist in this game.
case in point?



you can't seriously believe that talent is not a major factor when it comes to osu, when there's such a disparity in skill between players that put a similar amount of effort and thought into the game.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone is as talented as cookiezi?

i mean.. i do agree that intelligence (or rather: the ability to pin down strengths and weaknesses of your play and develop long-term strategies to improve) are very important, but they're certainly not all there is to it.
Cookiezi isn't the best because he's just THAT MUCH better at self-analysing. That's total bullshit.



As for most things in life when the end result is the sum of many random factors, you're gonna see all end results fall in a normal distribution.

When your potential of being good at osu (aka talent) depends on your intelligence, spatial thinking, pattern recognition, reaction time, the physical makeup of your hands and arms, fine motor skills, rhythm sense, ability to cope with stress etc. then you'll get a bell curve. Everything else is just wishful thinking.


This one of the most important theorems of statistical research. You can't just wish it away.
johnmedina999
Railey2

johnmedina999 wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/504759
i thought of linking my thread but i'd rather have him look at just my comment from now.

The thread was meant to stir up the community (and it did so very well), the discussion quickly devolved from people arguing the main point to people picking out minor flaws while not really talking about the main point at all. They also got very offended. Just read all of chainpullz or Taigas posts. The thread was basically written to be derailed.



Anyway, i stand by the main point. People who argue that talent doesn't exist, are naive.
LaryRose09
Are there male versions? I'm throwing money at the screen rn answer senpai
Topic Starter
Bweh
Talent refers to an aptitude, not capacity or potential. It is often cited as an amalgam of internal and external factors (whatever these may be) that end up favoring one's effort to result ratio relative to others.

Asserting that talent does not exist is not a matter of wishful thinking, either. At least, not any more than asserting its existence is a matter of cynicism.

My doubt of it comes from it being the go-to explanation for relative disparities in skill when the issue could easily be lack of data.
thelewa

Railey2 wrote:

thelewa wrote:

I'm not saying that the ones that are good at clicking circles or playing other games are especially smart or anything

thelewa wrote:

Talent doesn't exist in this game.
case in point?



you can't seriously believe that talent is not a major factor when it comes to osu, when there's such a disparity in skill between players that put a similar amount of effort and thought into the game.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone is as talented as cookiezi?

i mean.. i do agree that intelligence (or rather: the ability to pin down strengths and weaknesses of your play and develop long-term strategies to improve) are very important, but they're certainly not all there is to it.
Cookiezi isn't the best because he's just THAT MUCH better at self-analysing. That's total bullshit.



As for most things in life when the end result is the sum of many random factors, you're gonna see all end results fall in a normal distribution.

When your potential of being good at osu (aka talent) depends on your intelligence, spatial thinking, pattern recognition, reaction time, the physical makeup of your hands and arms, fine motor skills, rhythm sense, ability to cope with stress etc. then you'll get a bell curve. Everything else is just wishful thinking.


This one of the most important theorems of statistical research. You can't just wish it away.
You truly lead a sad existence believing that
B1rd
Maybe you feel better not believing in the reality of self-evident truths, but it doesn't change the fact that they are true.
thelewa
and maybe you're just that lazy that you have to believe yourself incapable of achieving something instead of actually, you know, trying?
B1rd
I had lots of enthusiasm when I first started this game, but it's hard not to be pessimistic in the face of continuous lack of improvement. I can remember a time when I tried to compete with various people in pp gains, and I could barely do so despite playing over 6 hours a day fueled by caffeine (compared to their one hour or so). What you people who refuse to believe in natural ability have to say in such large disparities in achievement despite similar effort other than 'you're just lazy'?

Brian OA wrote:

Talent refers to an aptitude, not capacity or potential. It is often cited as an amalgam of internal and external factors (whatever these may be) that end up favoring one's effort to result ratio relative to others.

Asserting that talent does not exist is not a matter of wishful thinking, either. At least, not any more than asserting its existence is a matter of cynicism.

My doubt of it comes from it being the go-to explanation for relative disparities in skill when the issue could easily be lack of data.
You say that talent is one thing, and not another thing, when all the words you're using are synonyms. The most obvious answer to the difference in achievement is the existence of natural talent. Cynicism is going out of your way to look at things in a negative light, it's not forgoing the obvious conclusion and claiming that instead it's the result of a million other variables. It seems apparent that your conclusion is based on the fact that you don't want to believe that people's ability is limited by their talent rather than any logic.
Blitzfrog
Here it comes again

Grab the popcorn boys
thelewa

B1rd wrote:

I had lots of enthusiasm when I first started this game, but it's hard not to be pessimistic in the face of continuous lack of improvement. I can remember a time when I tried to compete with various people in pp gains, and I could barely do so despite playing over 6 hours a day fueled by caffeine (compared to their one hour or so). What you people who refuse to believe in natural ability have to say in such large disparities in achievement despite similar effort other than 'you're just lazy'?
That you were doing everything wrong and were incapable of recognizing that you could be doing something wrong. You harbored a mislead belief of somehow doing everything perfect and when you didn't see improvement you arrived at the logical conclusion of somehow your perfect not being perfect enough. That you weren't capable of as much improvement due to things that you couldn't do anything about.

I've been at that point many times and every time I've got past it by realizing that I was doing something very wrong, that I had been pretending, that I wasn't even trying but had myself fooled into thinking that I was. After all, by outward appearances it looked like I was practicing really hard, clicking circles intensely for six hours a day! In actuality I had already given up, I already believed that no matter what I did it wouldn't amount to anything. I only played as much as I did to prove to myself that I had been right all along!
Topic Starter
Bweh

B1rd wrote:

You say that talent is one thing, and not another thing, when all the words you're using are synonyms.

The most obvious answer to the difference in achievement is the existence of natural talent.

Cynicism is going out of your way to look at things in a negative light, it's not forgoing the obvious conclusion and claiming that instead it's the result of a million other variables.

It seems apparent that your conclusion is based on the fact that you don't want to believe that people's ability is limited by their talent rather than any logic.
Sure; I'd rather not get into a back and forth on the definition of terms.

How is it the most obvious answer when you have to assume something exists?

Right; just like how naivete is going out of your way to look at things in a positive light. That was a response to Railey's claim on how arguing otherwise makes you naive. Moreover, I'm claiming that the disparity could be explained had we enough data. I'm talking about unknown variables not available by merely scanning people's profiles. I said nothing of their number.

I mean, yeah, I don't want to believe that talent will define my limits. I'm sure that's as clear as how you feel the other way, but the important thing to take from thhis is that I'm not basing my conclusion on how I feel.
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