eldnl wrote:

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. I like these patterns personally, but that shouldn't be too hard.

Those patterns are one of the reason i play CtB. I think they are an entire part of the "reading" and "control" skill of a CtB player and when they're well used they're only fun (example : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27807).

I agree with AR9 for the default AR (well this depend a lot on players I think... for me AR8 is slow AR9 is normal and 10 is fast). The point is that AR9 DT are just crazy but i think CtB diff should be challenging (i mean hard but FCable) so not thinked to be DTable.

eldnl wrote:

About why this is necessary

Well, we got two things here :
- As Eldnl said : 90% of the standard maps are borring, and this is cause : when musically you hear a key part on your song in standard mapping you can add a jump to make it funnier to play and if this jump is vertical you just can't feel it in CtB mode. And you can see this with a lot of key patterns wich make a standard map fun/beautifull/etc... This is all about how the map fits with the song.
- Adapt a CtB diff for standard is just good for borring limited gameplay. I wonder what happend if someone try to rank a standard diff 140 bpm with AR9 and wierd and ugly patterns just to fit with the spacing needed for the standard guidelines. I know a good standard player wich try to play some CtB diffs on standard mode and she have a lot of fun (with no fail) but this still unrakable for standard. So i'm ok to adapt CtB diff for standard but why in this case Standard guidelines does not adapt to CtB diff ? (i know this is ridiculous and that's why CtB diff should be rankable following some guidelines).

I'll suggest two guidelines to add :
- All patterns have to be justified by the song (for example no hyperdash on a calm part of the song). This is basically what make a good standard diff and i think it totally work for CtB, this follow the guideline of "no overuse of hyperdashes/jumps on the diff".
- The second is only my opinion but... A CtB diff you play pressing permanently the dash button is a really bad diff and lost all the fun (not cause this is difficult), cause the dash is part of the gameplay and it's like you don't need this button anymore... For me the dash use should stay under 50% of the song time or something like that (not 90% as I see in some diffs...)

eldnl wrote:

About who can mod the difficulties, I'm one, and many other.

I'm one of the many other. I can map too if I like the song.

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Maybe those were needed as said by someone

arien666 would have a heart attack of love if he saw this.

Drafura wrote:

I'll suggest two guidelines to add :
- All patterns have to be justified by the song (for example no hyperdash on a calm part of the song). This is basically what make a good standard diff and i think it totally work for CtB, this follow the guideline of "no overuse of hyperdashes/jumps on the diff".
- The second is only my opinion but... A CtB diff you play pressing permanently the dash button is a really bad diff and lost all the fun (not cause this is difficult), cause the dash is part of the gameplay and it's like you don't need this button anymore... For me the dash use should stay under 50% of the song time or something like that (not 90% as I see in some diffs...)

Both of those should actually be quite obvious but who knows.

Well most of the guidelines are actually obvious for me ^^"

Then what ? Nobody's supporting this ? Is still hope of seeing this "approved" ?

id love to see this happen. like srsly.

POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay. In All The ''Specific Diff's'' And Always. CtB Have a Rumor About ''The Big-Ryuuta'' helps with a High Precision For take The Fruits.. Only a Rumor.. There are no studies to prove it

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders. <---
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit. This Don't help in Nothing.. We Need The proportionality of BPM/SV For Explain when is Rankeable and When Not. I will Study That.. YES WE NEED HELP`.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders. Well.. basically is A ''Zig-zag'' Jumps of 1/4 With a fast SV... This can be Rankeable if the map have a Timing Section with increased of SV or The SV Are fast. I think we can Put a Limit of SV Depending of the BPM. - The puush Shows the Double in the Bar.. I think are x2 SV

•Burai Sliders: These technically in CTB specific maps could become rankable due to being able to actually seeing the ending in CTB mode unlike standard mode. Ask in IRC if you don't know what a Burai Slider is. Yes. This doesn't Affect Much in CtB... But... If the Slider are of Corner to Corner.. And with the Magic ''Slider Tick Rate 4''... U know. A Slider Full of Droplets. Consider It Maybe for a ''exception''.

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. That is my point. 4 can be Unrankeable.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please. The ''Hyperdashes'' Can be Unrankeable. But Rankeable With a ''Limit'' And.. ''Where you can put HyperDashed.'' Maybe in the Chorus..

•Use an approach rate of 8 as this is the authentic approach in the game of EZ2CATCH AR9 is more Funny. AR10 is Stupid & Funnyest. Like a Hard Rock. AR8.. Well.. Is ''Problematic''

•http://puu.sh/1e8V
These timing overlapping sliders are hittable in CTB but should be known that these are to never be used in CTB. They are illegal and is being stated because I know some will use these sliders. And Much more. This is Stupid.. Make This Unrankeable.. For avoid Problems.

•No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Yep, Put The explanation for the Community

•Map must be FCable. LOL OBVIOUSLY. Don't need a ''CtB Pro-Player'' For view if are FCanle or Not.. Only Testing

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 4. Anything smaller should not be used. Yes. 5 or more Unrankeable~

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable Is the same with the rule ''Map must be FCable''

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078 The same.. But goog Explanation.

•Please use a reasonable OD and HP drain depending on how the CTB specific was mapped. Maximun 7 of HP and 8 of OD

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits. Name: Spinner-ninja. Experience: Troll Fruits. You Can't put a Note 1/4 After the Spinner. This rule Depends of the Spinner.

•The combo rules for standard apply here. So you may have a combo that is 16-18 long at the most. Except if are a ''Quiescent Stream''

huh.. all continue working \o/

DaxMasterix wrote:

This Don't help in Nothing.. We Need The proportionality of BPM/SV For Explain when is Rankeable and When Not. I will Study That.. YES WE NEED HELP`.

Getting the ratio is a good idea... but with that we could end to a map with pixel jumps on each sliders... i think the only thing we really need here is common sense. The exact ratio is good to know, but it don't have to turn to the : "all map's SV set to the limit rankable". But well i know common sense doesn't sounds like a rule but i can't find a better rule for this... Making a map FCable, for me, is not making a map FCable only by 2/3 pro ctb players.

Zelos wrote:

Burai Sliders

This is ugly (if the slider color didn't change it could be nice but it's not the case)... and really not needed...

DaxMasterix wrote:

The ''Hyperdashes'' Can be Unrankeable. But Rankeable With a ''Limit'' And.. ''Where you can put HyperDashed.'' Maybe in the Chorus..

I just thinked about when hyperdashes becomes really hard to play, and my conclusion was something like : "They are hard when we can't read intuitively the rythm on wich we have to play them"

So why not include a bit of spacing about this i explain my mind :
In standard mapping on 1/1 ticks should have the same spacing, then mapping on 1/2 ticks should have 1/2 spacing (i mean the real spacing distance in pixels when i say spacing here).
So applying this to CtB hyperdashes : making an Hyperdash on 1/1 ticks should have a certain spacing and 1/2 ticks have 1/2 spacing OR at least a less than the spacing used for 1/1 in order to clearly see the timing change we have to play.

I think this idea is to devellop (like using this rule only if the hyperdash is a changing direction one or adding others exceptions).

DaxMasterix wrote:

AR8.. Well.. Is ''Problematic''

In order to follow my previous idea. AR8 is terrible to read hyperdash rythm and I think it's a really bad AR for CtB diff.

No hyper dash cancelling fruits. ? what is that?

Btw i just throw things in that i think are really annoying in CtB because i see them as unfair.

First of all 2 thing that i think are unfair:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.

Horizontel hold slider dashes / jumps:
Some or most hold sliders are from left to right (repeat) and sometimes this will fill your whole plate. But it is really frustrating to wait until the first holdslider is over and then to move 100% accurate to the next hold slider because you often have no time to be accurate.
Some of them are leading to hyper dashes which doesnt make it any easier.

Well this are just my two points and you don't have to agree with them but i would like to hear your opinions about them. I hope you know what i mean.

bomber34 wrote:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.

idk if i get what you said... When you catch a fruit on the side of the screen it's part of your skill to go back to the center as fast as you can in order to predict jumps. And timing is part of your skill too, i mean if we don't make jumps why making ctb diff ? The problem and part of the discussion we have here is how hard this timing have to be to became rankable.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontel hold slider dashes / jumps:
Some or most hold sliders are from left to right (repeat) and sometimes this will fill your whole plate. But it is really frustrating to wait until the first holdslider is over and then to move 100% accurate to the next hold slider because you often have no time to be accurate.
Some of them are leading to hyper dashes which doesnt make it any easier.

same, idk if i understood well... hmm if this is what i think meaning little return sliders with hyperdash on the end pointing to another little slider return, i found this just ugly but still playable if the hyperdashes fit with the song. Well i think it's better to use a standard stream than little slider return to make those kind of patterns.

If i don't get what you said plz give some screens to illustrate :s

bomber34 wrote:

Almost Hyper Dash overscreen dashes:
I talk about maps where you are on the one side of the screen and you get the fruit. Normally you also realize the other fruit and you can catch it.
The problem is that the fruit you catch has no hyper dash but you have to react 100% in order to get the next fruit. It is not very readable, which makes you playing this map all over again until you can remember that spot.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/4629 [Insane] 0:30:696

Well i wasn't sure if i should screenshot the edit mode or playing the game. I decided to took the edit mode because i am sure you won't see it on my screenshot of playing, i think. If you use Half time this spot is a hyper dash but without it is not. There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.
I am aware this is an old map and so on. But i already saw that on newer maps too and some are actually worse. (if i find them again i will Edit this post.)

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).

bomber34 wrote:

There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.

Fc first try, don't see anything really hardcore on it. It's not cause rythm doesn't seems present in the gameplay of ctb that it means you never need it... And the fun things are when you need a good timing actually. However as i said before the dificulty of the jumps is what we mainly have to talk about here.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).

ok that's what i understood from your previous post.

Sorry about double posting, but this not concern at all my last post...

I was thinking on a rule wich forbid HS volume = mute. It's annoying cause HS is the better way to know if you hit on ctb.

I read the guidelines, and I'd make most rules, actually. They're quite good too, I really like them.

However, I'd rather advice AR9 and OD8 for Insane difficulties, AR7 and OD7 for Hard difficulties. (assuming there will be any Hard CtB diff). AR8 isn't easy to read and I get confused a whole lot, while AR9 is readable (after some practice because it's kinda fast lol)

I wish you all good luck for this, I hope you can bring this to be actual rules and guidelines and we can rank CtB difficulties some day.

Also Pixel jumps should be forbidden altogether.

Drafura wrote:

bomber34 wrote:

There are some more on this map. Play it and see if you can predict them on first try.

Fc first try, don't see anything really hardcore on it. It's not cause rythm doesn't seems present in the gameplay of ctb that it means you never need it... And the fun things are when you need a good timing actually. However as i said before the dificulty of the jumps is what we mainly have to talk about here.

bomber34 wrote:

Horizontal hold slider dashes / jumps:
I also will play through my maps again to find good examples but before that i try explaining it again.
Horizontal Hold sliders (or short sliders with many repeats, whatever you call them) fill out almost your whole plate (sometimes).
That means you want to put Ryuutu exactly under that repeat so you don't have to move yourself or you have no choice because the repeats are so fast. However if you have for example a huge jump between two of them it is very hard to get the fruits.
This one i would say is okay but it is also the one i get mad most of the time.
I will post examples when i find them ( I have no time right now).

ok that's what i understood from your previous post.

-.-' I just realized that my "bad explained" point about the Horizontal sliders are actually in the guidelines already. sry D:
And to my other point I think Odaril found the right words. "pixel jumps" (at least i hope we both mean the same with this.)
well, sry for my stupidity but i just wanted to help

The delicate point here is to determine what is a pixel jump any ideas ?

Drafura wrote:

The delicate point here is to determine what is a pixel jump any ideas ?

I'm really in a doubt about this...it's number 1 or 2?

None of them. My idea of a pixel jump is:

O - - - - O - - - - O

A jump from the far left to the far right (or the other way around) with a non-hyperdashed fruit in the middle.

About the difficulty settings:
- Insane: AR9.
- Hard: AR8, 7 is too slow IMO.
- Normal/Easy: Dunno really if that kind of difficulties can be CTB specific. Nevertheless, Taiko has its Fuutsu and Kantan, so everything is possible :p

OD will depend on how hard is the diff or not, with a reasonable HP drain. CS should be set to a medium-big size (I think it's CS2).

CTB diffs will be named Insane, Hard, etc, or will they be named with another concept?

There are still many questions without an answer...

About the CtB names:
Well i think we should make clear with the diff name that it is CtB like in Taiko with Oni, Muzukashii und Futsuu.
well i am not very creative with this but we could call them
[CtB] Easy, [CtB] Hard,[CtB] Insane?
or
Fruit Salad,Fruit bowl, Fruit buffet (ok that is very weak xD)

and pixel jumps:
I would go with NeoRainier second picture but i would say you can't really see it there, it seems simple still.

I would say pixel jumps are fruits where you have literally no time to react. Like a hyper dash without hyper dash or so.
Like I said earlier i play through my beatmaps and look for that.

I describe hyperjumps as jumps that are doable without hyperdash but need a placement accurate to a few osu!pixels. These usually become hyperdashes with HR or DT iirc.
They're annoying to play and retardedly hard.

I also didn't found anything about breaks in the guidelines yet.
Should CtB have breaks like in standard mode?, or no breaks like in Taiko?
I would say no breaks because CtB isn't really exhausting . What do you think?

to the pixel jumps:
I agree with Odaril about them. I would say that they are also hyperdashes with HT.

Odaril wrote:

I describe hyperjumps as jumps that are doable without hyperdash but need a placement accurate to a few osu!pixels. These usually become hyperdashes with HR or DT iirc.
They're annoying to play and retardedly hard.

I have likely the same definition about really hard jumps but i have to rectify something.

HR makes appear Hyperdashes. <- that's those 'none' jumps i feel hard but they are really not so hard with a very good timing. Maybe it can became the maximum jump we can find in a CtB Diff. With these kind of jumps if we got a hard pattern just before it just become crazy to hit each plays.

DT makes disappear hyperdashes and make hyperdashes (those which still in the map) really really hard to catch. It's the opposite. I think most of hyperdashes cancelled by DT are doable but i'm not sure since i'm not a pro in double time i still sometimes catch somes on some low bpm maps wich requires less timing precision.

For the diff name why don't go for the typical guest diff standard wich is (or as to be) <mapper>'s CTB <diff>.

About breaks... I don't see them as a bad thing... this could be likely the same guideline as in standard : no more than 15-20 sec.

I bump my idea of making rules about spacing for hyperdash (in order to make them more readable) and the volume of HS = mute forbidden.

Concerning breaks, I believe that should be the same with standard.

Also what should I be updating here in the OP?
(Preferably stuff that was brought to consensus)

For now, nothing I guess. We need to reach an agreement about pixel jumps.
For breaks, same rules as standard sounds fine.

Finally, good to see we still have BAT care about this problem.
Thanks Odaril. I hope we can discuss and finally get a good guideline for CTB map being rankable.

Odaril wrote:

I read the guidelines, and I'd make most rules, actually. They're quite good too, I really like them.

However, I'd rather advice AR9 and OD8 for Insane difficulties, AR7 and OD7 for Hard difficulties. (assuming there will be any Hard CtB diff). AR8 isn't easy to read and I get confused a whole lot, while AR9 is readable (after some practice because it's kinda fast lol)
I think AR7 in CTB for normal player(I mean not pro player) is actually harder.
Because you know, for a hard diff, it should be made for normal player to easily FC.
If everyone is FCing that map, to get a higher rank, +mods is the only choice.
Ok then come to the problem. So far as I know, for an AR 7 map in CTB with hidden mod, it is actually harder than AR8. that is mainly because in AR7, the fruit drops slower and makes it harder to grasp the timing of dropped fruit.
plus AR7 hard to add HR(for speed: AR7+HR=AR9.5) and DT(AR9) also, I think AR8 will still fit the so called "hard" CTB map, because it is much easier to add "Hidden" mod.

I wish you all good luck for this, I hope you can bring this to be actual rules and guidelines and we can rank CtB difficulties some day.

Also Pixel jumps should be forbidden altogether.

For the so-called pixel jumps(I would like to call it "bug jump"), I remembered I have done a test in about 1 year ago, but not finished.
This is the test map
I need to finished and gather some data from that map.
Thanks again.

Edit: seems there is no defination of bug jump, so I just give a try for it. hope it will be helpful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bug jump means you should use one side edge to catch the first fruit and another side edge to catch the second.
Think about this kind of scenario:

A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F

ABCDEF represents the possible place of the plate, and ◎ represents note.

Then lets go to the scenario above. There are two limit jumps in the scenario, to catch the first two, u should be at B point and use the left edge to catch the first, and then hold the dash all the time, and u are just be able to reach C and catch the second one. But you should be at D when u catch the second one as the prerequisites to catch third one, so the third one must be missed if u catch the first two.

here is a possible scenario I made:

referance:http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39866&p=582441#p582441

So far as I know, for an AR 7 map in CTB with hidden mod, it is actually harder than AR8. that is mainly because in AR7, the fruit drops slower and makes it harder to grasp the timing of dropped fruit.
plus AR7 hard to add HR(for speed: AR7+HR=AR9.5) and DT(AR9) also, I think AR8 will still fit the so called "hard" CTB map, because it is much easier to add "Hidden" mod.

So true... AR7 is a big problem for non-experienced users 'cause (with or without Hidden) is so annoying catch the fruits meanwhile they fallen SLOOOOOOOOOWLY (Believe me, this is a sh*t problem)

btw, I'm glad to see Odaril here

We're in the right way o/

I hope this can help to improve/test these guidelines:

CTB difficulties modding assistance

People are beginning to make playable and enjoyful CTB diffs, that's why I decided to make this project.

If anybody's interested in joining at that modding stuff, contact me via PM.

About the Breaks again:
After playing this CtB diff. i tought that breaks aren't [really] necessary in CtB.
The standard rule/guideline about breaks is to have some of them around a minute or where it is possible because of recovery time for hands/repositioning.
I would say that you don't need breaks in CtB but you can add them where the music doesn't really allow mapping.

I say that because when I play standard converted CtB it is really boring, playing doesn't really strain your hands and or so and you can't do much there D:
This was just a small note to my older post

Btw I think I will start mapping some CtB diffs. soon for your queque Deif :3
I just need to have some time D:

I want to add some patterns to the "Rankable Section" that I've seen while modding some CTB maps:

1st: Stacked Sliders:



By Steven. I'm ok with their use, only if the end of a slider and the beginning of the next one are perfectly stacked (Distance Snap = 0).


2nd: Hold-Sliders:



By CLSW. Sliders with many 1/8 repetitions, used instead of regular sliders.


3rd: Hold-Stream:



By CLSW. 1/8 streams, similar idea to Hold-Sliders. The only difference between them is the shape of the "slider":

Bump. Huge overhaul of the ctb guidelines.

Those first stacked sliders are just no. Simply no.

ANYWAYS!

DeathxShinigami and I had a conversation about the OP and a slight few changes were made

Here is the log. (WARNING! INCREDBILY LONG! NOTE SINCE IT IS ALL CTB GUIDELINE TALK, BAT DONT GET MAD PLEASE!)
AGAIN YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! VERY LONG!

For me every fruits should have his own logic depending on the song so using Hold-sliders and hold stream can be okay but using them and mute them cause that doesn't fit with the song, for me this is not an option. If the fruit doesn't fit with the song don't put it. And that's one of the reason all hitsound should be heard. So if the 1/8 sounds good in the song it's ok, else use 1/4 or 1/2 to make a hold.

Oh and i don't understand what's EZ2CATCH doing here... Osu! is like Ouendan but can you find maps like banned forever in Ouendan ? No, wanna play Ouendan play Ouendan wanna play EZ2CATCH just play EZ2CATCH. AR8 is okay but why it should be "AR7 for easy" "AR8 for normals" "AR9 for hard" this makes no sense AR should only depend on bpm to make a map easier to read. AR8 200 bpm is like a giant spinner. AR7 could be hard AR8 could be hard too, as same as AR9 could be hard. If you look some rankings you can see some AR9 top40 full FC and AR8 top10 only FC.

One of the reason CtB players wants CtB diff rankable is to get more challenge. A challenge we can't make with standard rule set, not impossible, just challenging isn't this hard to understand ? Making easy CtB diff is not a bad idea, but since it can be done using standard rule set AND a lot of standards maps are actually good for CtB training at low level why is this necessary ?

Deif wrote:

I want to add some patterns to the "Rankable Section" that I've seen while modding some CTB maps:

1st: Stacked Sliders:



By Steven. I'm ok with their use, only if the end of a slider and the beginning of the next one are perfectly stacked (Distance Snap = 0).

This is not rankable and CtB won't be an exception.

Odaril wrote:

Deif wrote:

I want to add some patterns to the "Rankable Section" that I've seen while modding some CTB maps:

1st: Stacked Sliders:



By Steven. I'm ok with their use, only if the end of a slider and the beginning of the next one are perfectly stacked (Distance Snap = 0).

This is not rankable and CtB won't be an exception.

I agree with this. It makes no sense, even within a ctb frame of mind since it's just putting droplets between what can be 2 regular notes.

Drafura wrote:

For me every fruits should have his own logic depending on the song so using Hold-sliders and hold stream can be okay but using them and mute them cause that doesn't fit with the song, for me this is not an option. If the fruit doesn't fit with the song don't put it. And that's one of the reason all hitsound should be heard. So if the 1/8 sounds good in the song it's ok, else use 1/4 or 1/2 to make a hold.

Oh and i don't understand what's EZ2CATCH doing here... Osu! is like Ouendan but can you find maps like banned forever in Ouendan ? No, wanna play Ouendan play Ouendan wanna play EZ2CATCH just play EZ2CATCH. AR8 is okay but why it should be "AR7 for easy" "AR8 for normals" "AR9 for hard" this makes no sense AR should only depend on bpm to make a map easier to read. AR8 200 bpm is like a giant spinner. AR7 could be hard AR8 could be hard too, as same as AR9 could be hard. If you look some rankings you can see some AR9 top40 full FC and AR8 top10 only FC.

One of the reason CtB players wants CtB diff rankable is to get more challenge. A challenge we can't make with standard rule set, not impossible, just challenging isn't this hard to understand ? Making easy CtB diff is not a bad idea, but since it can be done using standard rule set AND a lot of standards maps are actually good for CtB training at low level why is this necessary ?

I think you missed the point completely as to how AR for CTB is supposed to work.
You should not set the CTB to AR9 just because its insane nor should you set something to AR5 or 7 just because its easy.
If this hasn't been proven in standard mapping as well, your AR should be based on the speed, style, and genre of the SONG
EX: A nice relaxing 100BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't have an AR of 9. A fast paced 200BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't really have an AR of 5.

Zelos wrote:

I think you missed the point completely as to how AR for CTB is supposed to work.
You should not set the CTB to AR9 just because its insane nor should you set something to AR5 or 7 just because its easy.
If this hasn't been proven in standard mapping as well, your AR should be based on the speed, style, and genre of the SONG
EX: A nice relaxing 100BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't have an AR of 9. A fast paced 200BPM song with a fun CTB insane shouldn't really have an AR of 5.

Actually you just said what i was saying... The AR should not fit with EZ2CATCH but only with the song OR the patterns you're going to use. AR is in fact a readability factor.

And when I saw :



I thought you was talking about making AR depending on difficulty. I mean making an easy diff on standard with AR9 is wtf, and I think an easy diff with AR9 in CtB is totally correct if this fit with the song. That's why i've talked about that. Did I missunderstood ?

---------------
I agree with Odaril and Shiirn, patterns with overlapping sliders /notes and Burai sliders shouldn't be ranked.

About silent hitsounds (hitsounds themselves) I want them unrankable. They're unrankable in standard, and standard and CtB have the same feedback value from hitting notes or catching fruits.

^Agree with this

Odaril wrote:

standard and CtB have the same feedback value from hitting notes or catching fruits.

^ Agree too.

Ephemeral wrote:

That list is too sparse and imprecise in its current state. That is why I have repeatedly suggested that the CtB community come together and discuss it properly before we go ahead with this.

Seems CTB diff are ready to be rankable, only need to clearify some of the rules.
So, I will try to point out some of the issues that needs to be clear define.

POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay.
Exactly.

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders.
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit.
Here, I think we need to define which kind of sliders is so called "strangeprogram" style sliders. Picture is not enough evidence here.
As my point of view, reason of these kind of slider appears is we use too high bpm and high slider velocity, result in the start note and the end note of these slider becoming a bug jump.
So about these point , I will rephrase like this:
Check out the beginning postion and the endding postion of the longest path of the slider. If equivalent 2 note placing these 2 postion will result in a bug jump, these slider will porbably not be rankable.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders.
again we need to define how much is a "fast slider velocity".
I forgot where but I know surely that there is a defination of speed of the slider. If I am not wrong, it is the slider velocity*BPM.
If that is that case, Based on my testing map, I would like to limit this factor to 500.
That means, if your BPM* slider velocity is greater than 500, you will not suggest to put the "double backing sliders" parttern which introduced above.
(for the data I think we need to double check with mm201(I think he is the expert for this lol)

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. Using a tick rate 4 with a fast slider velocity makes it so much more easier to combo break. (Try making a hard fun map, not one that makes the player mad)
Exactly
•Something you should not do is use 2x sliders that kick back at a very fast pace. (Play Banned Forever mapped by Blue Dragon for an example)
This creates more pain then it does fun and not only that, they are incredibly easy to mess up on.
Exactly, but I still think we need to define "how fast is fast".

These above 4 point is all about sliders. So I think it is better summerize it together.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please.
This is the most important rule. I think we need to hightlight this among the rule.

•The authentic approach rate to match EZ2CATCH is AR8 however if your SONG fits AR9, use AR9 if you would like. Use it with care.
Here, Drafura's idea is great. Using BPMs to manage the Approaching rate is the best way I think we can do it.
(sorry I forget the details.. )
But I think there is still some exceptions...
•No hyper dash cancelling fruits.
This point is useless becuse next point we already introducing this.
•Map must be FCable.
EX: No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Those make it impossible to make it to the next fruit thus breaking the combo.
For this point, I think we need to well define what is a hyper dash cancelling fruit.

Defination for Hyper dash cancelling fruit(bug jump):

The bug jump means you should use one side edge to catch the first fruit and another side edge to catch the second.
Which is there is a hyperdash jump, but when you put a note in the middle of the jump, there is a high possibility makes the hyper dash back to normal jump.
Belows are the explaination in detail.
Think about this kind of scenario:

A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F

ABCDEF represents the possible place of the plate, and ◎ represents note.

Then lets go to the scenario above. There are two limit jumps in the scenario, to catch the first two, u should be at B point and use the left edge to catch the first, and then hold the dash all the time, and u are just be able to reach C and catch the second one. But you should be at D when u catch the second one as the prerequisites to catch third one, so the third one must be missed if u catch the first two.

here is a possible scenario I made:

referance:http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39866&p=582441#p582441

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 5. Anything smaller should not be used.
Exactly.
Reason: when people playing with a low resolution, extremely small circle size will cause people's eyes goes mad.

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable
Useless point, which already state above.

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078
I'd like to rephrase:
No note or droplet out of the playing area.

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits.
I'd like to rephrase: the minimum distance between a note and a spinner is 1/3(including Note+ spinner and spinner+note). smaller distance will cause fruit hidden inside the spinner confusing players.

•Comboing is different in CTB so when using sliders with slider ends. In CTB, slider ends count as 2 fruits (or more if you are using a kickback slider) on a plate so count your combos wisely and don't make them super huge.
I am not sure about this point.
So far as I know, the reason why the score difference between a standard diff and a CTB diff is that big is

For standard, the end of the slider is count in as a combo, but not count in combo bonus score. That means, no matter how high a combo you achieve, the end of the slider you can only get 300 score. if you fail to get the "note" in the end of the slider, the previous note will count as a "100" and you failed to get the combo for the end of the slider.
But CTB is different. Because the slider here is treat as a note, so both beginning and ending note of the slider get combo bonns score.

So my point is, the combo difference between standard diff and ctb diff is only because of spinner in ctb dont count in as combo.

•If you have more than 1 CTB difficulty (say 2-3) please make sure it has a decent spread such as NH, ENH, NHI (etc)
Exactly true.

Hope I can help for the guideline.

ZHSteven wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

That list is too sparse and imprecise in its current state. That is why I have repeatedly suggested that the CtB community come together and discuss it properly before we go ahead with this.

Seems CTB diff are ready to be rankable, only need to clearify some of the rules.
So, I will try to point out some of the issues that needs to be clear define.

POSSIBLE CTB GUIDELINES

•Skinned elements of CTB specific maps must be exact size as in the template folder to keep accuracy of gameplay.
Exactly.

•No "StrangeProgram" style sliders.
http://puu.sh/1dEA
This slider is at 215 bpm with a 2x section and a slider velocity of 2.6
These style sliders are impossible to hit.
Here, I think we need to define which kind of sliders is so called "strangeprogram" style sliders. Picture is not enough evidence here.
As my point of view, reason of these kind of slider appears is we use too high bpm and high slider velocity, result in the start note and the end note of these slider becoming a bug jump.
So about these point , I will rephrase like this:
Check out the beginning postion and the endding postion of the longest path of the slider. If equivalent 2 note placing these 2 postion will result in a bug jump, these slider will porbably not be rankable.

•If you are mapping a fast song or using a fast slider velocity (the slider velocity can generally apply to a good amount of CTB mapping) limit your amount of double backing sliders from 3 to 4. Don't put a huge distance between the ending of the 1st slider and the beginning of a new double backing slider. http://puu.sh/1dEO This is an example of double backing sliders.
again we need to define how much is a "fast slider velocity".
I forgot where but I know surely that there is a defination of speed of the slider. If I am not wrong, it is the slider velocity*BPM.
If that is that case, Based on my testing map, I would like to limit this factor to 500.
That means, if your BPM* slider velocity is greater than 500, you will not suggest to put the "double backing sliders" parttern which introduced above.
(for the data I think we need to double check with mm201(I think he is the expert for this lol)

•If you have a really fast slider velocity, it is suggested that you do not use a tick rate of 4. Using a tick rate 4 with a fast slider velocity makes it so much more easier to combo break. (Try making a hard fun map, not one that makes the player mad)
Exactly
•Something you should not do is use 2x sliders that kick back at a very fast pace. (Play Banned Forever mapped by Blue Dragon for an example)
This creates more pain then it does fun and not only that, they are incredibly easy to mess up on.
Exactly, but I still think we need to define "how fast is fast".

These above 4 point is all about sliders. So I think it is better summerize it together.

•Hyperdash fruits should not be abused. Abusing these could make a CTB map un-fun. So use these with care please.
This is the most important rule. I think we need to hightlight this among the rule.

•The authentic approach rate to match EZ2CATCH is AR8 however if your SONG fits AR9, use AR9 if you would like. Use it with care.
Here, Drafura's idea is great. Using BPMs to manage the Approaching rate is the best way I think we can do it.
(sorry I forget the details.. )
But I think there is still some exceptions...
•No hyper dash cancelling fruits.
This point is useless becuse next point we already introducing this.
•Map must be FCable.
EX: No hyper dash cancelling fruits. Those make it impossible to make it to the next fruit thus breaking the combo.
For this point, I think we need to well define what is a hyper dash cancelling fruit.

Defination for Hyper dash cancelling fruit(bug jump):

The bug jump means you should use one side edge to catch the first fruit and another side edge to catch the second.
Which is there is a hyperdash jump, but when you put a note in the middle of the jump, there is a high possibility makes the hyper dash back to normal jump.
Belows are the explaination in detail.
Think about this kind of scenario:

A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F
A◎B______________C◎D______________E◎F

ABCDEF represents the possible place of the plate, and ◎ represents note.

Then lets go to the scenario above. There are two limit jumps in the scenario, to catch the first two, u should be at B point and use the left edge to catch the first, and then hold the dash all the time, and u are just be able to reach C and catch the second one. But you should be at D when u catch the second one as the prerequisites to catch third one, so the third one must be missed if u catch the first two.

here is a possible scenario I made:

referance:http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39866&p=582441#p582441

•The smallest circle size allowed is a circle size of 5. Anything smaller should not be used.
Exactly.
Reason: when people playing with a low resolution, extremely small circle size will cause people's eyes goes mad.

•All horizontal sliders must be 100% hittable
Useless point, which already state above.

•No sliders that are so far to the left or right that Ryuuta can't catch them. EX http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/96078
I'd like to rephrase:
No note or droplet out of the playing area.

•No fruits that start directly on a spinner. Raining spinner fruits are easy to confused with normal fruits.
I'd like to rephrase: the minimum distance between a note and a spinner is 1/3(including Note+ spinner and spinner+note). smaller distance will cause fruit hidden inside the spinner confusing players.

•Comboing is different in CTB so when using sliders with slider ends. In CTB, slider ends count as 2 fruits (or more if you are using a kickback slider) on a plate so count your combos wisely and don't make them super huge.
I am not sure about this point.
So far as I know, the reason why the score difference between a standard diff and a CTB diff is that big is

For standard, the end of the slider is count in as a combo, but not count in combo bonus score. That means, no matter how high a combo you achieve, the end of the slider you can only get 300 score. if you fail to get the "note" in the end of the slider, the previous note will count as a "100" and you failed to get the combo for the end of the slider.
But CTB is different. Because the slider here is treat as a note, so both beginning and ending note of the slider get combo bonns score.

So my point is, the combo difference between standard diff and ctb diff is only because of spinner in ctb dont count in as combo.

•If you have more than 1 CTB difficulty (say 2-3) please make sure it has a decent spread such as NH, ENH, NHI (etc)
Exactly true.

Hope I can help for the guideline.

Quite honestly that is tl;dr. can you tell me what you want changed instead of listing the ones you agree with as well?
Just the ones you want to change or modify please.

oh no sorry.. Since Ephemeral says the guideline is not formal as it is, Il just try to point something.
But Shriin has rewritten it in the new rule post, I guess it is useless from now..
Sorry again