This beatmap was submitted using in-game submission on Sunday, July 2, 2017 at 4:28:26 PM

Artist: BABYMETAL
Title: Road of Resistance
Tags: dragonforce herman li sam totman ktsune suzuka nakamoto yui mizuno moa kikuchi su-metal yuimetal moametal
BPM: 199
Filesize: 11083kb
Play Time: 05:09
Difficulties Available:

1. Crimson Rebellion (7.63 stars, 2074 notes)

Download: BABYMETAL - Road of Resistance
Information: Scores/Beatmap Listing
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The beacon fire turns the eastern sky crimson
It's our new guide
That heralds the end of isolation in darkness

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02:40:568 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - Where did I see this pattern from :thinking:
02:51:105 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - ^
00:29:304 (1,2,3,4) - ^

Feels like a tribute to my version but with bigger jumps xd.

Okay honestly, I don't want to start drama but... going through the map again, it really feels like Taki mapped my original version, and then Mitsuha mapped Kroytz' version. Here's some side by side comparisons:

00:55:203 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) - 00:29:304 - 02:03:105 -
02:40:568 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - Please, this is my favorite pattern, ;c
02:46:422 - 02:51:105 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - ^ 02:56:373 (1) - 03:14:520 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - 03:47:300 (1,2,3,4) - 04:02:081 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5) - 04:04:422 (2,3,4,5,6) - 04:11:885 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - 04:14:227 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1,2,3,4) - 04:38:812 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - 04:59:990 (1) -

jk

RevengeZ wrote:

no more monstrata!11!!!

[]

Sorry man, this feels too similar x__x

lolwut, there's some uncanny similarities I'll admit, more than half of them were not intentional tho so please don't flame. the glaring ones like the ladder I can say maybe was uh, "inspired". But if it means that much, I can change that one for you monstrata it's not problem.

this isn't "copy and pasted"

get off your high horse Monstrata.

there's only a few ways you can map a song that's 99% death metal or whatever it's called. go get a bunch of experienced mappers and give them a dragonforce song, you'll get a few maps that look the same.

"omg this guy made streams and sliders in a place in the song where i put them omg he stole it"

Please remember to stay civil and respectful (including your memes). Otherwise someone might lock this thread.

in all honesty i actually thought i was looking at the monstrata map up until the last 2 minutes

Tbh there's nothing wrong with copying some elements of an other map, but mentioning it in the map description would have been better.
But thats only the opinion of a noob :')

Still team Kroytz ftw

That's not how we discuss a map.

Locking for the time being, contact a GMT if you need it unlocked for something actually "useful" to the map.



EDIT:
cleaned up the unrelated stuff from the thread (4 pages).
You guys should really think 10 times before posting, you know that.

Thread will remain locked, obviously

How can you blame Kroytz for making a similar map considering that most maps from 2016/2017 are pretty much copy paste of each others?
Like there's a mapset that recently got pooped because its visual wasn't "polished" enough to look like another ranked version?! o.O
Pls stop with the comparisions and face reality. All maps soon will be copy paste polished like, thanks to the mindset of the current modding/mapping community. Shiirn already warned ppl about this. Also, this is not the place for such comments. This is for modding mostly and sometimes a bit of chat with the mapper.


It’s a really well done map. Pretty polished and shows you had a lot of effort into its aesthetic. I really like the fact that you didn’t spike the difficulty as much as the other ranked version. We can see some pretty spaced streams early on the map and that helps you getting a more consistently wise map. Unlike many people think, this mapset actually adds a good different experience compared to the other version especially because this one is harder.

Best of luck o/

I hope there won't be any more drama or memery in here.

Don't make me warn you with a silence please, it is not worth the game, trust me.

I am not a modder so I can only say superficial stuff about the map.

- I like that this map is, even though some things are blatantly copied, manages to create a different "challenge" unlike it's predecessor.
This RoR map puts more emphasis in the whole process of the map, instead of just OVERemphasizing one part and then calling it "Finale"
It's catered towards consistency and a steady progress of music. Theres no like real bpm changes in the song, so it is obvious that the difficulty should be quite consistent in order to properly work. This map has done that. Well done.

But I have to admit that in the current mapping I miss something which has been done ages ago and completely forgotten.
How about using Sliderstreams again? (I mean having long streams and then putting repeat sliders in between, maybe when the guitars suddenly switch rhythm?)
(Like in old maps like Rubikscube, Ascension to heaven)

They could fit here and would provide something unique over the monstrata version. I also dislike how curvy your spaced stream gets, but I guess that is whats supposed to create the challenge in that part? I have to say that just from the looks of it your finale is easier than monstratas.

Fix the obvious "slip-ups" where you stole things and then this map looks fine to continue the process

The problem here isn't that there's "copying" going on, but that somehow a mapper's creativity is so inherently limited in scope that it feels "wrong" to map any particular set of a music track any differently from "the best" way.


Monstrata is extremely skilled at figuring out the "most natural" way to represent the music in a beatmap. This makes for very pleasing maps to play, and ones that people find very easy as well. Hence his popularity.

But when you get right down to the details of individual musical tracks, you find that there is

a

lot

of the same shit going on.

When you figure out "the best" way to represent a 5-roll, a cascade pattern, and do nothing but that, and (looking at you, irreversible) tell other people to do nothing but that, you're going to end up with extremely visually similar maps, until you reach a point where "the best" way to map is unequivocally going to be similar to how Monstrata maps it, because he's good at that style.


Whether Kroytz was using Monstrata's mapping as a reference, a direct inspiration, or even just as the only way he knows how to map (take a look at Ascension to Heaven - it's also extremely plain and uninspired, but effective), is irrelevant in the end.



Ya'll only have yourselves to blame. You like and encourage one particular style, then when it starts taking over, you have the audacity to complain. I've seen it all over and nary a half dozen people actually tried to do anything about it. The rest stomped them down, all the while bitching that every map "feels the same".



EDIT: also because im bored i might mod this later just to get some sick kd to pretend to be alive

Shiirn wrote:

The problem here isn't that there's "copying" going on, but that somehow a mapper's creativity is so inherently limited in scope that it feels "wrong" to map any particular set of a music track any differently from "the best" way.


Monstrata is extremely skilled at figuring out the "most natural" way to represent the music in a beatmap. This makes for very pleasing maps to play, and ones that people find very easy as well. Hence his popularity.

But when you get right down to the details of individual musical tracks, you find that there is

a

lot

of the same shit going on.

When you figure out "the best" way to represent a 5-roll, a cascade pattern, and do nothing but that, and (looking at you, irreversible) tell other people to do nothing but that, you're going to end up with extremely visually similar maps, until you reach a point where "the best" way to map is unequivocally going to be similar to how Monstrata maps it, because he's good at that style.


Whether Kroytz was using Monstrata's mapping as a reference, a direct inspiration, or even just as the only way he knows how to map (take a look at Ascension to Heaven - it's also extremely plain and uninspired, but effective), is irrelevant in the end.



Ya'll only have yourselves to blame. You like and encourage one particular style, then when it starts taking over, you have the audacity to complain. I've seen it all over and nary a half dozen people actually tried to do anything about it. The rest stomped them down, all the while bitching that every map "feels the same".



EDIT: also because im bored i might mod this later just to get some sick kd to pretend to be alive

Funny how I just mentioned you a few minutes back in my mod talking about the same thing and then you show up \o/

hi im shiirn and i like to be incredibly inconsistent with my paragraph spacing

00:04:709 (1,2,3) - Going back towards (3) at that angle from (1) looks a little funny, I would rotate (2) anti-clockwise to make it a little better: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7227562

00:41:600 (1,1,1) - Might work better visually pitch-wise if you ctrl-j this, since the pitch is kind of descending.

Similarily to Monstrata's Zensei (or whatever that was called) map with two almost identical extras this is a theme that fits the song. It features Dragonforce's guitar player, Herman Li, and as we know Dragonforce makes songs that are basically the same. Sorry but if it's a theme Kroytz wants to follow then no one should complain because I think it's really cool and creative reference.

Shiirn wrote:

The problem here isn't that there's "copying" going on, but that somehow a mapper's creativity is so inherently limited in scope that it feels "wrong" to map any particular set of a music track any differently from "the best" way.


Monstrata is extremely skilled at figuring out the "most natural" way to represent the music in a beatmap. This makes for very pleasing maps to play, and ones that people find very easy as well. Hence his popularity.

But when you get right down to the details of individual musical tracks, you find that there is

a

lot

of the same shit going on.

When you figure out "the best" way to represent a 5-roll, a cascade pattern, and do nothing but that, and (looking at you, irreversible) tell other people to do nothing but that, you're going to end up with extremely visually similar maps, until you reach a point where "the best" way to map is unequivocally going to be similar to how Monstrata maps it, because he's good at that style.


Whether Kroytz was using Monstrata's mapping as a reference, a direct inspiration, or even just as the only way he knows how to map (take a look at Ascension to Heaven - it's also extremely plain and uninspired, but effective), is irrelevant in the end.



Ya'll only have yourselves to blame. You like and encourage one particular style, then when it starts taking over, you have the audacity to complain. I've seen it all over and nary a half dozen people actually tried to do anything about it. The rest stomped them down, all the while bitching that every map "feels the same".



EDIT: also because im bored i might mod this later just to get some sick kd to pretend to be alive

I think it's fine to have generic maps but I wish it'd be easier to rank more 'unsafe' or gimmicky maps. It feels like people are afraid of change

For more personal elaboration:


When I compare Kroytz' and Monstrata's respective paths of least roads of resistance, I just see generic mapping taken to its logical extremes.

The song is hardly inspiring of unique and interesting jump styles, and the streams on both follow very similar roll styles. There's only so many creative liberties you can make with this track if you want to keep continuously using "the most natural" patterns and flow. Selecting similar, or even the same, representation isn't plagiarism any more than it is to paraphrase wikipedia in your book report.

It's more arguable that they're both just extremely generic maps, and generic maps are going to look alike and play alike because they both take cues from the same, effective mapping style. Which any monkey can learn given enough time, it's just boring as hell once you get used to it, to the point where even Monstrata starts to take refuge in retarded self-referential meme gimmicks to entertain himself.

EDIT: thanks to that handy-dandy youtube video directly comparing the two, i was able to come to a good conclusion

i think kroytz did better

There are a lot of ways to express generic sounds. For any given rhythm I give you, I can easily think up at least 20 different patterns that play well just off the top of my head. Your "generic mapping/most natural" argument doesn't work here because given any circumstance, there are always going to be multiple ways to map a certain rhythm.

04:04:422 (2,3,4,5,6) - For example, comes after a full measure break. Tell me how many ways are there to arrange the pattern? How many positions are possible? You literally have the entire screen to play with due to that full measure break. Yet, the kickslider is linear, its pointing in the same slanted down-right angle, and leading upward to a 5 note stream that's slightly curved. The stream also has the same visual spacing. - oh, and the entire pattern is located at the same area of the screen: the bottom left.

Your observation that modern maps follow a more generic style is indeed accurate. But it's not valid in dealing with instances where an entire pattern looks almost identical in multiple perspectives (aesthetic, spacing, flow, rhythm, location). Like I said, given any circumstance, there are always going to be multiple ways to map a certain rhythm. Why, with so many options, are these patterns still so similar? Certainly it can't be because this is the "most comfortable" pattern because there are many patterns that are just as comfortable.

A lot of the "direct copies" you refer to are brief snippets of small combos, and, believe it or not, are rather limited in the most effective means of mapping that musical pattern.

Take a look at the youtube video that directly compares the two. You'll see that kroytz makes massive divergences in the streams and rhythmic choices for the more multi-layered areas of the track. In fact, I hazard to say he actually picks more natural and flowing rhythm and pattern choices more often, since your skill at streams is far below your skill at structure, while streams are kroytz' strength.

It's only when there's only one, really fucking obvious main rhythm that the styles get (really) similar, and guess what? When you want to keep natural flow going with basically one strict rhythm to follow, you're going to end up with similar patterns. Angles can't have too many liberties taken with them to keep flow, the spacing can't be too vastly different just for the sake of being different, and the rhythm structure is largely forced to be the same.

It's quite clear that some of the combos in particular are either direct references to your map or outright mimics - but that is hardly unusual in this community and is rarely frowned upon, especially when the rest of the map is quite clearly of their own design. Especially when it's the best way.

I just think you've become blinded by your own standards to think that "The most safe way" is synonymous with "Your way".

Honestly, disregard the "copied patterns", was it really worth your time to make a map that does almost nothing different to the current ranked map?

Why bother going through the effort of trying to rank another 7* Road of Resistance if it isn't a fresh new approach to the song?

Other than some minor spacing differences, there are basically no significant new rhythm choices, no patterns that DRASTICALLY distinguish itself from it's predecessor, so what's the point?

I think it's pretty fucking arrogant to just dismiss anyone's purpose for mapping.

But then, I doubt you'd understand the concept of other human beings having different motivations. You map easy marathons for memes, after all, what's the fucking point?

Shiirn wrote:

I think it's pretty fucking arrogant to just dismiss anyone's purpose for mapping.

But then, I doubt you'd understand the concept of other human beings having different motivations. You map easy marathons for memes, after all, what's the fucking point?

I'm not dismissing it, i'd like to hear exactly what his motivations are. No need to get snippy, friend.

Weber wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

I think it's pretty fucking arrogant to just dismiss anyone's purpose for mapping.

But then, I doubt you'd understand the concept of other human beings having different motivations. You map easy marathons for memes, after all, what's the fucking point?

I'm not dismissing it, i'd like to hear exactly what his motivations are. No need to get snippy, friend.

What do we gain out of knowing what his motivations are? Modding the map helps him, knowing why he mapped it doesn't.

Shiguma wrote:

What do we gain out of knowing what his motivations are? Modding the map helps him, knowing why he mapped it doesn't.

Well, nothing really. I was just curious. Sorry if my previous wording was too antagonistic, I do respect Kroytz, I just wanted to see where he was coming from.

Limited in the most effective means of mapping? Are you sure? Please listen to that section I linked and tell me that that particular arrangement is the only way to map that sound profile.

Actually, if you copy his (or my) .osu text and use the Ctrl+O function, you can flip through our two difficulties and see the rhythm deviations more clearly yourself. You shouldn't rely on a video to claim that his rhythm choices are different because they are actually very similar to mine. I didn't bother to point that out though because this song tends to have some very obvious main rhythms.

These are the only differences in rhythm in the first 40 seconds.
00:10:892 (2,3) -
00:13:786 (1,2) -
00:15:249 (1) -
00:21:109 (1) -
00:33:992 (1,2,3,4) -

Everything from 00:54:032 - to 01:02:227 - follows the exact rhythm, and that's fine.

Rhythm deviation generally comes in how we treat streams and how we use kicksliders/sliderstreams. Kroytz decided to use more kickslider patterns which is good. Rhythm similarities are fine. I couldn't care less if someone compared the map and found over 80% of the rhythms to be similar. But you shouldn'y use a video as an argument to support your claim that they are different.

Shiirn wrote:

When you want to keep natural flow going with basically one strict rhythm to follow, you're going to end up with similar patterns.

--

This is not true at all, and if you have any ounce of creativity you will know there are multiple ways to express a pattern naturally.

Lets take a generic rhythm thats 8 1/2 beats. The most dominant rhythm is 8 loud drum beats that land on every 1/2. So you get a dominant rhythm that sounds like:

Tell me how many ways can you arrange that while keeping a natural pattern. If your answer is more than one, then ask yourself why these patterns at the same timestamp ended up coming out with such similarities?


Now imagine if I used a triangular structure? Or a hexagonal structure? Or a symmetrical structure? Or even no structure. You cannot sit there and tell me that a certain rhythm prevents you from thinking of more than 4 different ways to map something. If your argument is that the angles won't be right, then take any pattern. You can Ctrl+H it, Ctrl+J it, and Ctrl+J+H it and produce 4 different versions that have the exact same angle and spacing and flow, just in different positions and orders.

Weber wrote:

Well, nothing really. I was just curious. Sorry if my previous wording was too antagonistic, I do respect Kroytz, I just wanted to see where he was coming from.

I assume you've never heard of a personal message before xd

Can we keep ad hominem attacks out of the discussion please Shiirn + anyone else?

See, when you take an obvious direct copy and claim it applies to the entire map, anyone with an ounce of logic is going to notice that you're cherrypicking examples. There are many other points in the map where he does just that - changing things up to fit his own style - that you conveniently ignore outright when it doesn't fit your narrative.

Yes, the maps are very similar. The track itself is a big effect on this, another is that Kroytz is a comparatively inexperienced mapper in his own right. Whether you like it or not, Monstrata, your most common style is very easy to grasp and understand. I can safely say, having personally spoken to and interacted with several dozen newer mappers, that your mapping style directly or indirectly provides a good starting point for a good half to two-thirds of them.

Because it's simple, effective, and easy. And you're the poster child for it.

I don't understand what you want out of Kroytz' map. Are you saying that he should have been arbitrarily different from you purely for the sake of being different? That seems like a horrible idea. I find the direct copies to be very scattered and homages more than blatant plagiarism, especially given the stylistic differences in the rest of the map.

I'd like you to actually explain what you want Kroytz to have done differently instead of cherrypicking examples and saying "He copied me!" without any sort of inquiry or demand.

I'd like to also point out that it might be worth it to take a step back and realize that maybe your style isn't actually yours but one that naturally sprung up over time in response to the qualification system and the growth of the community. You just ended up being the biggest face for it. It's arrogant to claim any one person "created" a style (cough pishipls), and when the style in question is basically "Training Wheels For Modern Mapping", it's hard to understand why you'd get upset that other people mimic your style to such a degree.

If you want to claim me to be attacking you ad hominem, it's largely because I have no idea what your purpose here is. Clarify and it'd be easy to figure out.

Do you want the map nuked? Do you just want "homage to monstrata" in the description? I don't follow. I just see bitching. not that i got any problems with that, bitching leads to fun discussions

Where did I claim that any of this applied to the entire map? I'm just pointing out similarities. I made no statement that Kroytz map was a copy of mine. I think you're just hearing it from other people, but my position is that these patterns that I listed were just too similar to be a coincidence. I'm not arrogant enough to say the entire map was a copy of mine. Or even an entire section. Just some patterns. I'm not cherry picking examples, I'm giving every single example of what I as the original mapper felt was a clear copy. Kroytz is a creative mapper, he can easily find a different way to map those sections I pointed out no? And then I would have no qualms about this map.

In any case, consider what Loctav has to say about defending something as not being plagiarism.

So do you want the map nuked?

I directly took a stream from another mapper in my Ascension to Heaven map, never really mentioned it to anyone, and kept it in my head as a personal homage to that mapper. I don't feel that is plagiarism.

I was going to directly take gowww's slider from felys and put it in my map but BNs said it was too ugly (i think you did specifically)

To make another analogy, if two people are writing book reports about the same book, is it plagiarism if a couple sentences in random locations had the same wording? I wouldn't think so. Loctav's analogy assumes that a massive portion of the content is directly copied. It clearly isn't. There are a couple copies here and there, but the map is not plagiarized.

If you want him to outright remove the direct copies, go ahead and say so. I don't see what all the big fuss about the map in general is, then, if your only purpose is "I don't want my combos to be copied exactly". Say that outright. And then your choice should be respected. It's a lot easier to avoid drama if you have an actual objective in mind to start with.

A simple "Hey, these bits are direct copies of my map, I don't like that, change it during the modding process?" would have probably worked better.

EDIT: And kroytz reacting with "triggered" probably wasn't great either. so both ends kind of approached it wrong. and if you wanted to avoid drama you probably shouldn't have posted about it on social media, asshole

Shiirn wrote:

I directly took a stream from another mapper in my Ascension to Heaven map, never really mentioned it to anyone, and kept it in my head as a personal homage to that mapper. I don't feel that is plagiarism.

I think it's time to wake up friend
Surprisingly, things have gotten more strict and quality criteria has changed! Why should someone not be upset when their work is taken

holy shit that was over five years ago


rip in peace 100pa-, you were an inspiration :thinking:

Please stop making this about the map as a whole. I'm sitting her pointing out specific patterns. Also, if you go to any academic institution, any instance of plagiarism causes the entire paper to be plagiarized. Hell, you can even plagiarize yourself if you don't quote from your own published works lol.

I already stated my intentions pretty clearly.

Monstrata wrote:

I'm giving every single example of what I as the original mapper felt was a clear copy. Kroytz is a creative mapper, he can easily find a different way to map those sections I pointed out no? And then I would have no qualms about this map.

Either change the patterns to something new and creative or demonstrate how they aren't a copy. Simple as that.

[]

If you aren't satisfied with that, then I honestly have no clue what you are even arguing about, or why you're even here lol.

There we go, then. Hope he's mature and changes things up for you.



Also, this isn't an academic institution, it's a loony bin for music-lovers-turned-sadomasochists. Standards might be a little bit different, so we shouldn't get too carried away with analogies.

Monstrata wrote:

Hell, you can even plagiarize yourself if you don't quote from your own published works lol.

How can you plagiarize yourself if you aren't taking someone else's work?

It was a dramatic example. In certain (maybe most, if not all) college courses, you have to cite every source you used in a finished paper. If you don't cite yourself, welp...

Logic Agent wrote:

It was a dramatic example. In certain (maybe most, if not all) college courses, you have to cite every source you used in a finished paper. If you don't cite yourself, welp...

That's not plagiarism (if you're using your own works), that's an entirely different matter.

It seems - regardless of whether any sort of plagiatism does apply in this case - that actions of copying specific elements into oneselfs map in the osu community isn't even being discussed in regards of the theme it being a questionable action because of the sake of an element, in similar manner, being used in a different map. Though this is the exact action I would see plagiatism in, that is whether something is "applied to the entire map" or not. I don't see any reason whatsoever that implies any difference (in terms of copying being blatant plagiatism) between those two. It does not at all matter whether a map represents the mappers own thoughts and creationism if he decided to randomly just copy elements of other maps.
The whole theme of a generic style being used in both maps is an entirely different discussion and does not influence the fact of whether plagiatism is rightfully denoted or not. The concept of "Mimicing styles" is a topic that is completely and utterly different from the charges that are being brought up to kroytz (which is plagiatism in terms of copying specific patterns whether or not they fit a specific style or not, which, again, does not mattern the slightest bit).
In my mind, it would be a start for rafraining from plagiatism (that is copying specific patterns that are recognizable) to become part of the ranking criteria.
And it is absolutely not a horrible idea for maps, in specific parts, to be necessarily different from a map of another set, as, for a map, being a product fully originating from the creativity and skill of its creator, is part of its purpose. And I am not talking about the style or the logic/flow patterns of specific parts of a map being an influence for a mapper to map a certain way - I am talking about blatantly copying patterns, that were thought out by another mapper to represent the song that is mapped to the best. Which again, neither do I know nor am able to judge whether this is the case here.
Calling out complaints (whether legitimate or not) as "bitching" doesn't help the discussion to advance in any way.

Sorry for this post, but it's 5:50 am and I got a little triggered I guess.