02:06 dreamynightmare: hiya
02:06 Kaifin: hello
02:06 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1195168 SCRATON - Retrospect Me [Nostalgia]]
02:06 Kaifin: okay so i wanted to irc because
02:06 Kaifin: i didnt know what was going on with your map lol
02:07 Kaifin: it is very well conceptually executed
02:07 Kaifin: like in terms of consistency
02:08 Kaifin: but in terms of like basic mapping skill (structure/aesthetic/flow) it is lacking
02:08 dreamynightmare: ok
02:08 Kaifin: so i figured the best way to convey that would be through text chat
02:08 dreamynightmare: makes sense
02:09 Kaifin: okay so which out of those 3
02:09 Kaifin: do you want to go over first
02:09 dreamynightmare: structure
02:09 Kaifin: okay so good stuff first
02:10 Kaifin: 00:11:049 (1) -
02:10 Kaifin: stuff like using the same slider shape for these sounds is cool
02:10 Kaifin: its a good idea
02:10 Kaifin: especially because you repeat it over and over in the map its cool and consistent
02:10 Kaifin: you do a lot of directly stacked structure which i personally like as a mappe r
02:10 Kaifin: like 00:11:049 (1) -
02:10 Kaifin: woops wrong link
02:10 Kaifin: 00:03:665 (1,2,1,2,1,2) -
02:10 Kaifin: like this
02:11 Kaifin: just to define my definition of structure btw in case it's kind of foggy or unclear
02:11 Kaifin: what i mean by structure is
02:11 Kaifin: "placing the notes in a way that makes logical sense" compared to all the other notes
02:11 Kaifin: make sense?
02:11 Kaifin: anyways this is good 00:03:665 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - you do the overlap here
02:11 dreamynightmare: yes
02:12 Kaifin: but you immediately break your structure with
02:12 Kaifin: 00:06:434 (1,2,3,4) -
02:12 Kaifin: which isn't really connected at all to the previous notes
02:13 Kaifin: save for the tiny overlap , it's not the same angle, it doesn't have any logical connection to the previous notes, it's just there
02:14 Kaifin: what i'm getting at is that you need to be connecting your patterns in a logical way or else your placements will end up just looking messy
02:14 dreamynightmare: ok
02:14 Kaifin: heres an example of a well structured well executed pattern
02:14 Kaifin: 00:14:280 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2) -
02:14 Kaifin: they're all even distance apart
02:15 Kaifin: simple pattern, makes sense for the repeated sound, emphasizes it well
02:15 Kaifin: now the best part is
02:15 Kaifin: 00:16:819 (1,2) -
02:15 Kaifin: how this new pattern is now connected to the last one
02:15 Kaifin: by this simple structure choice
02:16 Kaifin: it is very important if you're doing repeated patterns like this that they have some sort of logical connection to one another
02:17 Kaifin: this might be like a big burden to think of when you're mapping but a good rule of thumb
02:17 Kaifin: is to really think about why you're placing objects where you're placing them
02:17 dreamynightmare: ok
02:18 Kaifin: nothing you place should be random
02:18 Kaifin: an example of where something like this could be improved is 00:53:742 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) -
02:18 Kaifin: the pattern implies the two squares are connected
02:18 Kaifin: the two squares are completely different angles
02:19 Kaifin: + the placement of 00:54:434 (1,2,3,4) - doesn't really have any reasoning that i can see
02:19 Kaifin: either aesthetically, structurally or just flow wise
02:19 Kaifin: now this is a very GENERAL thing so it's something that i think would be more useful to you going forwards
02:19 Kaifin: rather than going through all your patterns in this map and ending up making massive changes (unless thats what you want to do that is)
02:20 Kaifin: does all of this make sense so far
02:20 Kaifin: hopefully this is helpful
02:21 dreamynightmare: yes
02:21 dreamynightmare: i'm kind of wrapping my head around it
02:21 Kaifin: i also don't mean to come off as harsh or whatever cause you clearly put work into your map
02:21 Kaifin: if you want a very blatant example heres a great one
02:21 Kaifin: of structure
02:21 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/927487 EYKHA (CV : Sawashiro Miyuki) LOU (CV : Uchida Maaya) MERYL (CV : Terui Haruka) - Delta Decision [Illuminati:on]]
02:22 Kaifin: 00:12:153 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
02:22 Kaifin: click this link
02:23 Kaifin: if you've never seen this its pretty wtf tier
02:23 dreamynightmare: i've seen it before
02:23 Kaifin: monstrata maps all of his patterns on a hexagon grid
02:23 Kaifin: this makes him the extreme example of structure
02:24 Kaifin: every placement is logical because it's literally on a grid
02:24 Kaifin: part of why it was so easy for him to rank maps like quaver and inferno
02:24 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1195168 SCRATON - Retrospect Me [Nostalgia]]
02:24 Kaifin: back to the map though
02:24 Kaifin: you obviously do not need to be that extreme
02:24 Kaifin: thats just a good example
02:25 Kaifin: the major flaw really isnt the structure as much as it is the aesthetic
02:25 Kaifin: because the aesthetic is also killing your structure (or vice versa? idk)
02:26 Kaifin: now when i mean aesthetic, i'm mostly talking about how things look based on your structure
02:26 Kaifin: not based on your slider shapes or anything like that because that's purely subjective
02:26 Kaifin: now subjectively a lot of people might not like your aesthetic but you know thats a different discussion for a different day
02:26 Kaifin: 01:57:896 (6,1,2,3,4,5) -
02:26 Kaifin: 01:57:896 (6,3,4) -
02:27 Kaifin: this is the best example i found
02:27 Kaifin: whats wrong here in the stuff in the bit thats highlighted
02:28 Kaifin: like in that small section
02:29 Kaifin: most of your aesthetic flaws boil down to structural problems
02:29 Kaifin: (that question wasnt rhetorical btw lol)
02:29 Kaifin: as an example of this
02:29 Kaifin: see how many different overlaps you do
02:29 Kaifin: all overlapped a different amount
02:29 Kaifin: in this small segment, close enough to be recognizable to the player
02:30 Kaifin: 01:57:203 (3,1) -
02:30 Kaifin: 1
02:30 Kaifin: 01:58:357 (3,4) - 2
02:30 Kaifin: 01:58:126 (1,5) - 3
02:30 Kaifin: 01:59:511 (1,1) - 4
02:30 Kaifin: 01:59:626 (2,2) - 5
02:30 Kaifin: 02:00:203 (3,4) - 6
02:30 Kaifin: which is also barely touching 02:00:896 (1) -
02:31 Kaifin: these overlaps along with the slider body overlaps like 01:56:280 (5) - with 01:56:742 (1,2,3) -
02:31 Kaifin: are what are dragging your map down aesthetically the most
02:32 Kaifin: now: one thing to take away from this is don't think that overlaps are inherently bad
02:32 Kaifin: overlaps can be very good
02:32 Kaifin: a good use of overlaps in your map would be
02:32 Kaifin: 01:34:588 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
02:33 Kaifin: if it was logically strucutred
02:33 Kaifin: these overlaps would be very good
02:33 Kaifin: things can overlap as long as it makes logical sense and isn't just random
02:33 Kaifin: the moment you introduce randomness to overlaps, your map starts getting cluttered
02:33 Kaifin: as for a good example of how to use overlaps in your structure very wel
02:33 Kaifin: here's another extreme example
02:33 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/692088 Rise Against - Drones [Extra]]
02:33 Kaifin: 01:21:075 -
02:34 Kaifin: 01:21:777 (3,1,3,1) -
02:35 Kaifin: you can see that throughout the map as well, pishi uses a lot of overlaps
02:35 Kaifin: 01:31:213 (1,3,5) -
02:35 Kaifin: while the map isn't perfectly clean
02:35 Kaifin: it's still very well strucutred
02:35 Kaifin: structured*
02:35 Kaifin: 01:32:647 (2,3,1,3) -
02:36 Kaifin: you'll note that he uses the same (or in this case nearly the same i think thats a little off but its neglible) amount of overlaps
02:36 Kaifin: between his patterns that are close to each other
02:36 Kaifin: okay last thing is flow
02:36 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1195168 SCRATON - Retrospect Me [Nostalgia]]
02:36 Kaifin: and its mostly positive feedback
02:37 Kaifin: i have to comb through it one more time to double check but your flow was definitely
02:37 Kaifin: the stand out positive of your map
02:37 Kaifin: other than the concept/ideas uses
02:37 Kaifin: used*
02:37 Kaifin: now if i said circular flow
02:37 Kaifin: do you know what i mean by that?
02:37 dreamynightmare: yes
02:38 Kaifin: clearly based on your mapping you do
02:38 Kaifin: because it all flows very well
02:38 Kaifin: 01:28:588 (1,2,3,4,5) -
02:38 Kaifin: the flow in patterns like this is very good
02:38 Kaifin: you also have some basics of higher bpm flow down which is great, whether or not unintentional
02:39 Kaifin: a good rule of thumb is
02:39 Kaifin: the faster a movement is
02:39 Kaifin: the sharper and clearer it should be
02:39 Kaifin: 01:35:973 (1,2,3) -
02:39 Kaifin: triangles are a very good choice for your 1/4 jumps
02:39 Kaifin: noting in that pishi map in that segment that i showed you for the structure
02:39 Kaifin: those jumps were like 220 or something
02:39 Kaifin: in comparison to the rest of the map
02:39 Kaifin: so they're all very very sharp and punctuated
02:40 Kaifin: this isn't the exact same thing but just a notable example
02:40 Kaifin: 01:43:126 (6,1,2,3) -
02:40 Kaifin: one thing i'll say is i'd be careful with this
02:40 Kaifin: because the circular flow is going clockwise from 01:41:973 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
02:40 Kaifin: and then you switch it on a dime with a very uncomfortable unclear motion from 01:43:126 (6,1) -
02:41 Kaifin: if the triangle started on the left side like
02:41 Kaifin:
http://puu.sh/vsm4R/2d7ad3ba56.jpg02:41 Kaifin: like here or something (i deleted the other two notes and just moved the 1
02:41 Kaifin: it would make more sense flow wise
02:41 Kaifin: okay that is the end of my
02:42 Kaifin: long winded spiel
02:42 Kaifin: hopefully that is in some way helpful to you
02:42 Kaifin: you have good potential!
02:42 Kaifin: and i think you'll make super cool maps once you get the basics more down
02:42 dreamynightmare: i'll try
02:42 Kaifin: you grasped circular flow as a concept very well
02:42 dreamynightmare: thanks for doing this
02:42 Kaifin: so the others will come ezpz
02:42 Kaifin: no problem
02:42 Kaifin: hopefully it was helpful and not spirit killing
02:43 Kaifin: if you have any questions or want me to check your new maps in the future hit me up
02:43 Kaifin: also one final thing
02:43 Kaifin: mapping is too subjective to be taught by 1 person
02:43 Kaifin: so i'd recommend seeking out good mappers/mappers you respect and showing them your maps as the most efficient way to learn/get feedback
02:43 Kaifin: okay savelogging
