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Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Tasha wrote:

Not sure if I like the above idea especially if mashing awards bonus points. While it works that way in TnT, on a PC version of the game it'd open up access to bonus points for players who may use not so legit means to mash out those sliders...Unless I'm misunderstanding?
Yeah I think that was the entire reasoning behind why sliders were designed differently from TnT in Osu. Also I like how sliders are rythmic and just letting them be like a spinner with infinite count (without notelocking on spinners I can easily get multiple times the current value just by spamming my keys) which would be way too overvalued in points. Especially for the larger finisher sliders
Honestly I wasn't thinking spinners were un-intuitive towards beginners, just unsatisfying as a whole, though being able to hit spinners with any keys to complete them might also work really well for the beginners. Remember that all options of sliders will always gain some negativity from certain crowds of people. If we're talking the second option, you're trading away possible legitimacy for an easier to understand system for beginners, with the first option, you're reverting back to the old way, which from what I can see ScoreV2 is trying not to do and can form bad habits, and with the third option, less or more tick marks could be just as intimidating as the other to beginners. However, I do agree that this second option could be very unbalanced if not handled correctly (despite mentioning it, you end up seeing flaws in your own ideas eventually). Here's just a few more thoughts off the top of my head for the second option.

1. Put a cap onto slider bonus points. The main problem there is that it's essentially a spinner now, except you can hit any keys. Perhaps it'd make more sense to turn the spinners into this rather than sliders. However, this would reduce point inflation, and solve that issue.

2. Make bonus points on sliders worth less and less the more the slider is hit, kinda like a root, log, ln, etc. function. Whether this is the best option is really up to debate, as it might make sliders seem...odd. However, this too would reduce point inflation to the point where eventually hitting the sliders is literally worth nothing. I imagine this value would be rather high so only cheaters/really effective mashers would encounter this. It'd still keep it friendly and easy to understand to the beginners at the cost of some competitiveness on the scoreboards.

(I mean personally out of all the options I do like the third one the best due to the versatility, accessibility, and creativity, but that's besides the point) Again, with every system there are issues, specifically with allowing beginners to get into the gamemode, as if the basic mechanics are too intimidating, it makes it very difficult for beginners to want to get into the game. Standard, Catch the Beat, and even Mania all have simple mechanics that are easy to understand at first or second glace (sliders are click and hold, spinners are rotate rapidly for standard, move the character to the fruit in catch the beat, and hit the corresponding key in mania, holding if its a long note). If players become curious and check out a gamemode like Taiko but then are confused at first, second, and even third glance at how they should complete it, or if the mechanics are clear, but difficult to accomplish (like the current sliders), they'll quickly leave and check out some other gamemode or just return to standard. There's no reason to be this elitist group of people.
Topic Starter
Regardless I don't think any more changes are going to come in at this point as we are preparing for the beginning of TWC. Thank you all for your assistance in the past weeks, we'll be back soon :)
i hope scorev2 have ranked board xd
I strongly dislike changing the HP system, nor do I think that we should require finishers to be done with with two keys.
People will die on one stream in Taiko if they mess up part way. The chance of the happening and the penalty don't match up. Granted I didn't try the HP change as it was already reverted.

Finishers with two keys is very difficult for Standard convert maps. Unless we plan to unrank all converts (which I wouldn't be opposed to) I don't think we should change the finishers to break combo or cause miss. Even then I wouldn't recommend changing them. Increasing the score they give for hitting them successfully is alright but it's whatever.

Drum roll change. I supposed it's alright. I thought Drum roll was pretty useless in the previous system.
Spinner change is alright I guess.

The 1 million limit is alright. I don't see it as necessary, but not unwelcome either. I don't dislike the change just indifferent. I'm not entirely sure what sort of changes it will bring to the scoring system, but I can't see them being negative.

Kiai Time change? I'm learning towards Kiai time existing but only impacting the base score rather than the multiplier that the combos will give.
300*Kiai multiplier + combo multiplier. Hopefully it's like that.

Though I think that the scoring should be ***less combo based***. Which I'm really happy about in ScoreV2
Trying out the new changes, this is a HUGE difference. I really really like how much less combos influence score in ScoreV2.

There's no limit to increasing score based on combo, right? I still want to be kept, but at least it is standardized under the 1 million limit so I guess it's not that bad. Acc matters so much more now.

EDIT: I had a huge write up on combo based scoring but I think mixed up Standard and Taiko changes.
What is the point of the change? Promote Taiko mode to new players? Some changes make even the easiest maps harder and counterintuitive. Making Taiko more rewarding for more experienced players? No thank you, we have an extraordinary amount of unranked/unlisted and private maps which are sufficiently hard and challenging even for the top 0.1% players. Making drumrolls matter doesn't add anything meaningful to the gameplay, players are already rewarded enough for hitting them, making them accuracy-based is just silly. Rewarding players who hit Big KATs and DONs with both keys is understandable and should be encouraged but should not be detrimental to the accuracy/life. Big notes may be slightly boosted score-wise but not too much, just so you can actually see a difference for scoring clarity. Majority will still ignore difficult Big notes and minority will still hit the same amount of notes based on their skill which already solves the scoring problem to a certain extent. Finishers exist not only for showing your skill but most of the time they are necessary for the music and rhythm. Spinners influencing accuracy is on same level of usefulnes as drumrolls influencing acc. For the majority of the songs nothing will change on the other hand for a lot of difficult songs which have extremely short spinners mixed with other patterns or inordinate amount of sliders, like converted maps, it will have a negative impact. Both drumrolls and spinners should be left as is, simply a nice bonus, while finishers can be just a more juicy bonus for more skillful players.
A lot of the changes have been reverted or altered according to community feedback. You cannot deny that trying to introduce players to drumrolls as of right now is very difficult, as it acts like a stream, but hitting any button instead. Imagine that for the basics of standard osu when just starting out, they throw these 170BPM streams at you. That wouldn't be very fun, and the same applies in Taiko. You could say "oh but the drumrolls in Taiko are optional", and while they are at the moment, they won't be in the future, in order to place Taiko more in line with the other modes and their mechanics. In every mode except Taiko, all hit circles, sliders/long notes, and spinners are required (though in mania spinners are treated similarly to sliders/long notes), so why should Taiko be the outlier? For difference? The main reason people can't get into Taiko is because of this very difference.

Spinners influencing acc honestly could've been a thing since the beginning, since it's been proven that spinners still drain health at the very least, even without acc. Adding acc with the exception of a few gimmick maps here and there now being impossible to FC (which might I say in standard these gimmick maps can pop up a bunch just like in Taiko or any other mode, mainly looking at Aspire). Drumrolls I have the same mentality behind. Yes, players who are skilled enough are already hitting them, but beginners aren't, and to help ease them into the game more, they should be. Of course, like others have said, the threshold should be quite low or according to OD so that beginners don't have to hit them like streams. Another solution as stated before is allow sliders to be ticked on more than just 1/4 and 1/3. What if sliders could be ticked on 1/2 or 1/1 for easy and slow diffs? What if sliders could be ticked on 1/8 on hard diffs that could potentially give more points? This could be a creative way to use drumrolls in the future. Whatever happens with them, as long as they can appeal to players starting out, it'll be a positive change.

Big notes draining health? That has long since been patched out, as well as combo break or just flat out miss for the big notes. This complaint isn't valid. Please, test out V2 yourself before making these types or remarks. Literally going 10 seconds into a song proved to me that big notes don't drain health at all.

Also, you're saying this as a "right now" basis. If certain changes get made, perhaps in the future, mappers can find new and innovative ways to implement altered spinners and sliders that can attract a bigger player base and both challenge and reward harder players all the same. Yes, right now there aren't many maps that will be changed with this alteration. But perhaps in the future, perhaps the alterations will prove to benefit player and mappers alike through new and creative gameplay. And a negative impact on converted maps? You must not see a lot of converted maps, usually drumrolls don't exist in those regardless because they're converted to 1/dumbnumber don/kat instead, and spinners are a non-issue past most 2008 maps.

Now perhaps this doesn't click immediately. After all, looking at your plays, you definitely are an older player, with your activity being non-existent past 2014, and most of your favorites being from 2014 or earlier. Mapping has changed a bunch, and the playerbase of other modes is increasing due to their accessibility, but Taiko seems to be falling behind activity. On the Gameplay & Rankings forum, the Taiko forum is the least popular, even less so than CTB, and while the overall amount of players in Taiko is higher than CTB, think about how many of those players are from Japan, or have heard of Taiko no Tatsujin before in the past. It's mainly those factors that Taiko has a higher playerbase. Taiko no Tatsujin is a pretty popular game, and a game like osu! to have a simulation of it of some kind will attract those people. The problem with that, is the fact that little to none of these players are new to the game. osu! has grown large, and if new players to osu! were to check all the gamemodes, they'd likely find Taiko the most confusing. None of my friends can get into Taiko like they have with standard, mania, or even CTB, and that's because of all these "optional" objects, because of the inaccessability of Taiko. Some say it's the colors of the notes confusing them, but most people I talk to say it's because there's so many mechanics tossed at the player at once that they don't quite know what to do with them, and having them be optional doesn't help matters. Part of this might lie in the fact that there is no actual tutorial for Taiko like there is for standard. CTB and Mania don't have them either, but with CTB, it's as simple as moving the character, and Mania looks very similar to many other rhythm games out there, like Guitar Hero, Rock Band, Beatmania, Pop'n Music, the list goes on and on. The point I'm making is that Taiko ScoreV2 is meant to improve the system by not only making the game more similar to the other three modes, but also to make it more accessible.
I might not really have a place to speak since I'm brand new to this game, but I think it's generally bad to take something that's optional and make it mandatory, at least as far as casual play goes. The freedom to choose what obstacles to worry about or prioritize in a song is a good thing, a "risk vs. reward" system is basically what the big notes and sliders are. If I'm new to a song and am struggling to full combo, I might pass on double hitting the big notes until I master the song, then go for them on future plays. Then I'm rewarded with a bigger score than when I was newer to the song. By making those notes mandatory you remove that, basically making the only variable between scores your accuracy. If the reasoning for that change is to make Taiko more like the other modes, you will accomplish that, but more like the other modes doesn't really equate to a better overall game.

Furthermore I agree with a post above me that newer players are put off by the difficulty. You have a game with a small playerbase, in which new players are overwhelmed by how hard it is, so you make it harder?

I think it's a bad move. This is just my opinion. Feel free to correct me on anything I've said because, like I mentioned, I'm only a few days into Taiko, myself.
again pal I just said the whole large note fiasco? That's been gone for a while actually. And while I agree that making something similar to the other modes isn't necessarily a better game, it does make it easier to understand, and if there is still enough of a skill threshold available for advanced players to enjoy while still letting newer players get into the game, it would accomplish both. Right now, only a small portion of the drumroll is required for players to pass it, and while I still think that due to how tickmarks work in the first place it's a bit awkward, I think it's a good compromise. And for spinners, this honestly should've been a change a while ago, and while it messes up the 0.01~ of gimmick maps that drain your life thanks to spinners, the other 99.99~ of maps will be generally unaffected by them.

The counterargument to this of course is the fact that in CTB, spinners aren't mandatory at all, and for that sure, spinners then could be argued one way or the other for whether they should be necessary or not. However sliders/drumrolls are still all required on all other gamemodes, and if the win condition on the drumrolls is low enough to not punish new players and still keeps the point bonuses for the more skilled players, it all works out in the end.

Now I'm sure many people have brought it up, but as people have said, another reason why people can't get into the game is because there is no designated tutorial for Taiko. The other two gamemodes, CTB and Mania, are very simplistic to understand how to play, that is in CTB you move the player to the fruit, and in Mania you press the key at the right time. It even shows you a little visualization. Taiko compared to all the other gamemodes has as many, if not more mechanics, than even standard mode has, and for it to not have a tutorial makes it even more difficult to get into. That's less of a problem with ScoreV2 and more of a beatmap bundling problem though.

Please, keep up the good work osu!staff. ScoreV2 is looking much nicer than when it initially came out, and it's clear you're listening to at least a vocal majority about major issues.
Score v2 tried to change how 4:3 and 16:9 worked, by trying to balance them out and making 16:9 have the same play area that 4:3 does.
They rolled back that change because people didn't accept it because it doesn't solve the problem. Now I bet they're trying to do the opposite, by extending 4:3 play area to match 16:9. That will just make everything worse because people played 4:3 by that simple reason.

How should it change?
Award a score bonus multiplier with pp bonus as well like x1.03. Why? Because essentially 4:3 is a Mod that you an apply to the game, much like HD and HR but to a much lesser extent. It restricts view kinda like HR does but it's not as harsh. Trying to match 4:3 to 16:9 has the same effect as removing HD FL HR from the game, the players that are only used to that mod will complain and since 4:3 objectively increases difficulty I think it's fair to add a multiplier to players using those resolutions.
>awarding a score multiplier to resolutions

taiko players have ascended to the next level that the game is now too easy for 16:9, and so the screen resolution wars have begun. with the new 1.03x multiplier in charge, it makes no sense for anyone to hopelessly compete with the inferior screen resolution of 16:9.

I can't even get into how much this is wrong. First off, if people have played on 4:3 for their entire career, they aren't going to notice a difference, and since their monitor isn't optional unlike mods, they will automatically get a passive bonus. People sometimes complain about the unfairness of 144hz vs 60hz or whatever, but imagine if one or the other gave an active benefit, an ingame benefit. Or perhaps if the game detected someone was using a tablet/mouse there was an active benefit. There would be an outcry, and nearly everyone still believes "tablet's easier than mouse" or "144hz is easier to play on than 60hz". If the player's accustomed to the condition, it barely matters, but if we were to apply this suggestion's logic here, guess what? Anyone automatically detected using a mouse or anyone's monitor detected being less than 144hz would get a passive boost. Many players can work with what they've got, and they've gotten very far, so why not keep that mentality here?

Second, having 16:9 act similar to 4:3 honestly does seem like the logical solution, though clearly that wasn't the popular choice. No, there is no clear cut answer onto how you solve this issue. If you make 16:9 act like 4:3, the playfield is smaller but graphics would be larger (or there's just a black bar/notes scroll faster), and if you make 4:3 act like 16:9, while it's true the playfield is larger, the graphics would also have to be smaller to fit this restriction (or have notes scroll slower). By the way as a side note, don't assume what the developers are trying to do, it makes you look like an ass. Anyways, that'd be like if for Mania, instead of the fade-in mod limit visibility only to the bottom, the screen zoomed into those bottom notes only. But the difference here? Fade-In has no multiplier. In fact, neither do Hidden or Flashlight. This is because of how fundamentally different Mania is played compared to other modes, and how those three mods can actually actively help those players. There could be a similar situation to those playing on 4:3. A smaller playfield means having fewer notes cluttering up the screen, which can help the player, well play better.

So then why does Hidden, Hardrock, and Flashlight grant multipliers to players in every other mode (Hardrock to Taiko in particular) except Mania? In Mania, you can actively control the scroll speed of the notes, in combination with Fade-In, Hidden, and Flashlight. This grants the most comfortable playstyle for a variety of players. In other modes, you can't control the scroll speed at all. Since this is Taiko, Hardrock actively makes notes scroll faster and the timing window and health bar are stricter. While it can help players read (especially on lower speeds), there are enough factors to determine how it would be given an active multiplier. A stricter hit window will mean a general lower accuracy, which can harm players in the long run. Hidden is a similar story, except the notes vanish after a set time has passed depending on the tempo. I'd argue Hidden is the anti-Hardrock, where on Hardrock lower BPM is arguably easier, Hidden on high BPM can be arguably easier. However, a majority of players agree that Hidden is strictly harder. And finally for flashlight, it simply blocks too much of the screen for it to ever be beneficial. There are reasons why mods gives multipliers outside of just visibility, and a ratio other than just being a ratio, has nothing outside of it.

Third, you just described yourself why 4:3 shouldn't be a mod, rather than why. "essentially 4:3 is a Mod that you an apply to the game, much like HD and HR but to a much lesser extent. It restricts view kinda like HR does but it's not as harsh." 4:3 players don't have this as a "mod", and because 4:3 has so little going for it, it makes no sense to have it as a mod. You just described it as a bootleg HR. We don't need two of the same mod ever. "Trying to match 4:3 to 16:9 has the same effect as removing HD FL HR from the game, the players that are only used to that mod will complain..." Excuse me? You can't just decide to boost a screen resolution's importance to the level of actual mods in the game. Removing a screen resolution would alienate a lot of players, but implementing the screen resolution as a passive boost would do the same thing, but to the other end of players. The combination of HDHR finally being tweaked slightly to make the two more readable together has been praised, and it's clear that the modifications of mods themselves aren't a problem. Surely in this regard, modifying how screen resolutions work would garner praise to players as well? You can't mimic the two, that's not quite the solution, but perhaps different behavior depending on the screen resolution would work. You can make scroll speed alter depending on the resolution, just look at a recent Taiko showcase by peppy! The scroll speed adjusts itself depending on the screen size, making the scrolling matter both from BPM and how long the width of the screen is in relation to the height of the screen. Finally, no matter what, the same scrolling will happen for both sides no matter what. HR will still make the game harder to play through increased scroll speed and OD/HP, HD will still make the game harder to play due to how HD starts to vanish around halfway down the screen, and FL will still make the game harder for, well being FL.

Please, think about how other players might play the game before you decide to bring up a potential way for you to hoard more performance points. Also for reference, I've played on 4:3 before, I found no real situations where I found 4:3 harder than 16:9, in fact 4:3 might've been easier in some regards, just like how 16:9 can be easier in some regards. It's almost like...screen resolution doesn't matter for overall skill. Top players can exist for 4:3 just like how top players can exist for mouse. It's not the hardware; it's the player.
First off: You can change resolution regardless by simply playing on windowed, so you're completely free to choose your resolution, regardless the screen you have. So, their monitor resolution CAN be optional like mods.

The tablet vs mouse argument makes no sense here, 16:9 vs 4:3 is how the game plays out while mouse vs tablet is how the game is played, besides you can change your resolution regardless of the monitor you have, meanwhile you cannot pull a mouse or a tablet from your ass. It is impossible to prove that mouse is worse than tablet. The whole 144hz vs 60hz bullshit makes too small of a difference to be considered impactful on the game.

I did assume they were going to do that way because that's the way it works on osu!lazer test client. It scales automatically to 16:9 playfield by scaling the size of the notes to match the aspect ratio. So they essentially did the reverse as what was originally planned in score v2. This doesn't work because the players played 4:3 at a disadvantage since 16:9 has way too much clutter for them and forcing 16:9 on everyone is the same as forcing any of the other mods on all players.

Why 4:3 is worse than 16:9

In 4:3 you see way less than a 16:9 player would to the point that it gives major advantage to 16:9, specially at high BPM's.
Oh well but in 4:3 you have less clutter on the screen.. But guess what? HR does the same thing and it is still considered a mod. HR increases OD but the scroll speed change and overall visibility is what makes it hard at higher BPM, same happens with 4:3.

I know a few players that can ONLY play HR and that will refuse to play anything except HR because they can't (too many notes on the screen). The same thing goes for 4:3 players but these don't get any bonus for playing at a disadvantage.
I don't want to make 4:3 seen as a mod like HD or HR, that's why I was suggesting a minor score increase since it's clearly not as punishing as the others.

I have spent more than 400 hours spread across 16:9 and 4:3, and I definately know that the way they are going with the future of osu! is not the ideal when it comes to taiko aspect ratio.

The suggestion: Lazer's scaling is acceptable if they add a way for 4:3 players to play like they used to. A mod or something that can add a tiny score multiplier to compensate for playing at a disadvantage. That mod will scale all resolutions to 4:3's playfield. Kinda like what was attempted with scorev2.
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