Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Gezoda
My only worry for the far future is that sliders will slowly die out in favor of spinners, as there will be practically no reason to use them over spinners because of the fixed tick rate (for high or low BPM). While I'm not asking to have a fix right away for TWC, it would be nice to see if anything can be done about it later on.

I mean no one wants 1/4 25 BPM ticks :thinking:
Nwolf
slow songs in general are beyond rare in rhythm games, even more in taiko

I don't see sliders dying out either, as spinners end when the player completes aka not the song, while the slider still adds something rhythmic to the song, and also ends together with the song (as the mapper has intended). Most maps already use 1/4 tick sliders anyway, so that's not changing. I believe sliders won't become an endangered species in taiko, they will stay as uncommon as they are now.
Syphist

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Syphist wrote:

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
Syphist

smoogipooo wrote:

Syphist wrote:

So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
I was making suggestions on how to not make changes for the worse, instead you oversimplify my points and misrepresent what I'm trying to say. Honestly if you're not going to listen to what I have to say or take the time to create a proper response and instead dodge around the points it's not even worth my energy.
Gintoki8
I don't even understand why a new system have to come up(not everyone are competing as long as I know) and was pretty satisfied with the old one. Why a Mania copy?

But at least being able to play hidden + HR correctly feels so great OMG
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Gintoki8 wrote:

I don't even understand why a new system have to come up(not everyone are competing as long as I know) and was pretty satisfied with the old one. Why a Mania copy?

But at least being able to play hidden + HR correctly feels so great OMG
??????.???????? Mania copy? In what way? Please close your browser and never return to this thread.

I will be removing any further posts that derail the topic and don't provide any constructive feedback. Make your own thread if that's what you want to do.
Gintoki8
Hey that's just what it felt when the total score is 1M + if the HP bar come + the "everything count as a hit". That's it. But I don"t know the full details of the scoring system I was just giving my first impression so sorry if you took it the wrong way.
FlamingRok

Syphist wrote:

So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
While spinners and sliders are definitely required objects now, they are exactly what you said they should be. You have to hit a very small amount of the ticks at usual OD levels, and even at the highest, it's still less than half of the ticks, making the conditions to count them as a miss being rather low. Spinners were never a big issue and I'm more than certain many players were already completing or nearly completing the spinners to their entirety. This change does nearly nothing to spinners, other than importance.

Actually, my main concern is the fact that players new to Taiko might not be able to complete sliders accurately due to their nature of being similar to a mono-color stream. It seems like quite a step up from anything seen in a Kantan, Futsuu, or even Muzukashii for that matter. I understand that the percentage of required ticks reduce depending on the OD, but it still feels like it could be too intimidating for newcomers, and might isolate those who want to get into Taiko further. Spinners are fine, they require very few hits, and end as soon as all the hits are required, and even if you don't complete it, you're likely to get a 100 instead due to how quickly spinners can be completed. Though I will say, there is a sense of joy of getting points while hitting the spinner as opposed to only the end. A really simple fix to this is to award a small amount of points per hit, and then have the final hit be worth the most, like how again old Taiko has it, but still supporting the idea of ScoreV2 by not enough hits resulting in either a 100 or a miss. This would keep a sense of accomplishment to a spinner throughout rather than just the end of it, though this is a pretty minor point that I'm sure not everyone feels the same about.

There are a few solutions with the sliders I can think of right off the bat, all with their own benefits and downsides, though if the improvement of ScoreV2 continues the way that it has, it likely won't need any of this.

1. The easiest solution: just negate the possibility of sliders becoming a miss and instead have them contribute to or past the 1mil limit, similar to how old sliders were. The main downside to this of course is that beginners may neglect sliders too much, which can form bad habits, and it'd be reverting back to the old style of Taiko, though to some that might not be a bad thing. The benefit to this is that it would reward the more skilled players for fully hitting the sliders, whether it's to be able to hit that max score, or to even go beyond that max score.

2. Change the sliders to act similarly to how they work in original Taiko, but keep the percentage based sliders. This might seem odd, but if sliders could be introduced to players as "hit the drum as often as possible to clear the slider", it would be easier for newcomers to complete sliders. A few downsides to this is that it would kind of negate spinners to a certain extent, and points earned during the slider past the completion percentage might have to be awarded as bonus points, which might create a huge points inflation. Also, it would completely change how sliders had even acted before, which as we can tell from the osu! ScoreV2, people can go apeshit over this (for seemingly no reason?). However once again, this would reward skilled players for being able to rapidly hit the sliders compared to others, and could create new interesting mapping opportunities depending on who uses this to their benefit.

3. This has been added already to the minimal effect, but perhaps a slider hitting a repeat arrow could count as a tick mark, with how long the slider lasts being the exact same as how it is now. Currently you can make 1/3 tick mark sliders, which has pleased many people in the community, but why stop at 1/3 tick marks? Why not 1/1 or 1/2 tick marks for the beginners, or even 1/6 or 1/8 on the more difficult or point plentiful maps? Of course, the main disadvantage is if the beginners miss the tick marks on the 1/1 or 1/2 tick marks, there are less opportunities to save the slider, or if 1/6 or 1/8 sliders were used on beginner maps to try and give the player more opportunities, then the number of ticks required due to the percentage system would increase, which again makes it more difficult on the beginner players. However, with more tick mark options gives more creative opportunity to mappers, and more enjoyability can be delivered to players when used properly, as well as still rewarding the more skilled players for hitting all the tick marks in a slider.

These were just a few ideas, and none of them really have to be used of course. I can confidently say that I am looking forward to the future of ScoreV2 after the consistent listening to the ideas of the community rather than shutting them out. Thank you for the continuous work on osu! and ScoreV2.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
I agree that the way spinners and sliders work with Scorev2 currently may be confusing for beginners. I am tending towards your second suggestion for both sliders and spinners.
karterfreak
Not sure if I like the above idea especially if mashing awards bonus points. While it works that way in TnT, on a PC version of the game it'd open up access to bonus points for players who may use not so legit means to mash out those sliders...Unless I'm misunderstanding?
Edgar_Figaro

Tasha wrote:

Not sure if I like the above idea especially if mashing awards bonus points. While it works that way in TnT, on a PC version of the game it'd open up access to bonus points for players who may use not so legit means to mash out those sliders...Unless I'm misunderstanding?
Yeah I think that was the entire reasoning behind why sliders were designed differently from TnT in Osu. Also I like how sliders are rythmic and just letting them be like a spinner with infinite count (without notelocking on spinners I can easily get multiple times the current value just by spamming my keys) which would be way too overvalued in points. Especially for the larger finisher sliders
FlamingRok
Honestly I wasn't thinking spinners were un-intuitive towards beginners, just unsatisfying as a whole, though being able to hit spinners with any keys to complete them might also work really well for the beginners. Remember that all options of sliders will always gain some negativity from certain crowds of people. If we're talking the second option, you're trading away possible legitimacy for an easier to understand system for beginners, with the first option, you're reverting back to the old way, which from what I can see ScoreV2 is trying not to do and can form bad habits, and with the third option, less or more tick marks could be just as intimidating as the other to beginners. However, I do agree that this second option could be very unbalanced if not handled correctly (despite mentioning it, you end up seeing flaws in your own ideas eventually). Here's just a few more thoughts off the top of my head for the second option.

1. Put a cap onto slider bonus points. The main problem there is that it's essentially a spinner now, except you can hit any keys. Perhaps it'd make more sense to turn the spinners into this rather than sliders. However, this would reduce point inflation, and solve that issue.

2. Make bonus points on sliders worth less and less the more the slider is hit, kinda like a root, log, ln, etc. function. Whether this is the best option is really up to debate, as it might make sliders seem...odd. However, this too would reduce point inflation to the point where eventually hitting the sliders is literally worth nothing. I imagine this value would be rather high so only cheaters/really effective mashers would encounter this. It'd still keep it friendly and easy to understand to the beginners at the cost of some competitiveness on the scoreboards.

(I mean personally out of all the options I do like the third one the best due to the versatility, accessibility, and creativity, but that's besides the point) Again, with every system there are issues, specifically with allowing beginners to get into the gamemode, as if the basic mechanics are too intimidating, it makes it very difficult for beginners to want to get into the game. Standard, Catch the Beat, and even Mania all have simple mechanics that are easy to understand at first or second glace (sliders are click and hold, spinners are rotate rapidly for standard, move the character to the fruit in catch the beat, and hit the corresponding key in mania, holding if its a long note). If players become curious and check out a gamemode like Taiko but then are confused at first, second, and even third glance at how they should complete it, or if the mechanics are clear, but difficult to accomplish (like the current sliders), they'll quickly leave and check out some other gamemode or just return to standard. There's no reason to be this elitist group of people.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Regardless I don't think any more changes are going to come in at this point as we are preparing for the beginning of TWC. Thank you all for your assistance in the past weeks, we'll be back soon :)
Chando
i hope scorev2 have ranked board xd
gemiplus
I strongly dislike changing the HP system, nor do I think that we should require finishers to be done with with two keys.
People will die on one stream in Taiko if they mess up part way. The chance of the happening and the penalty don't match up. Granted I didn't try the HP change as it was already reverted.

Finishers with two keys is very difficult for Standard convert maps. Unless we plan to unrank all converts (which I wouldn't be opposed to) I don't think we should change the finishers to break combo or cause miss. Even then I wouldn't recommend changing them. Increasing the score they give for hitting them successfully is alright but it's whatever.

Drum roll change. I supposed it's alright. I thought Drum roll was pretty useless in the previous system.
Spinner change is alright I guess.

The 1 million limit is alright. I don't see it as necessary, but not unwelcome either. I don't dislike the change just indifferent. I'm not entirely sure what sort of changes it will bring to the scoring system, but I can't see them being negative.

Kiai Time change? I'm learning towards Kiai time existing but only impacting the base score rather than the multiplier that the combos will give.
300*Kiai multiplier + combo multiplier. Hopefully it's like that.


Though I think that the scoring should be ***less combo based***. Which I'm really happy about in ScoreV2
Trying out the new changes, this is a HUGE difference. I really really like how much less combos influence score in ScoreV2.
:D

There's no limit to increasing score based on combo, right? I still want to be kept, but at least it is standardized under the 1 million limit so I guess it's not that bad. Acc matters so much more now.

EDIT: I had a huge write up on combo based scoring but I think mixed up Standard and Taiko changes.
EBAWER123
What is the point of the change? Promote Taiko mode to new players? Some changes make even the easiest maps harder and counterintuitive. Making Taiko more rewarding for more experienced players? No thank you, we have an extraordinary amount of unranked/unlisted and private maps which are sufficiently hard and challenging even for the top 0.1% players. Making drumrolls matter doesn't add anything meaningful to the gameplay, players are already rewarded enough for hitting them, making them accuracy-based is just silly. Rewarding players who hit Big KATs and DONs with both keys is understandable and should be encouraged but should not be detrimental to the accuracy/life. Big notes may be slightly boosted score-wise but not too much, just so you can actually see a difference for scoring clarity. Majority will still ignore difficult Big notes and minority will still hit the same amount of notes based on their skill which already solves the scoring problem to a certain extent. Finishers exist not only for showing your skill but most of the time they are necessary for the music and rhythm. Spinners influencing accuracy is on same level of usefulnes as drumrolls influencing acc. For the majority of the songs nothing will change on the other hand for a lot of difficult songs which have extremely short spinners mixed with other patterns or inordinate amount of sliders, like converted maps, it will have a negative impact. Both drumrolls and spinners should be left as is, simply a nice bonus, while finishers can be just a more juicy bonus for more skillful players.
FlamingRok
A lot of the changes have been reverted or altered according to community feedback. You cannot deny that trying to introduce players to drumrolls as of right now is very difficult, as it acts like a stream, but hitting any button instead. Imagine that for the basics of standard osu when just starting out, they throw these 170BPM streams at you. That wouldn't be very fun, and the same applies in Taiko. You could say "oh but the drumrolls in Taiko are optional", and while they are at the moment, they won't be in the future, in order to place Taiko more in line with the other modes and their mechanics. In every mode except Taiko, all hit circles, sliders/long notes, and spinners are required (though in mania spinners are treated similarly to sliders/long notes), so why should Taiko be the outlier? For difference? The main reason people can't get into Taiko is because of this very difference.

Spinners influencing acc honestly could've been a thing since the beginning, since it's been proven that spinners still drain health at the very least, even without acc. Adding acc with the exception of a few gimmick maps here and there now being impossible to FC (which might I say in standard these gimmick maps can pop up a bunch just like in Taiko or any other mode, mainly looking at Aspire). Drumrolls I have the same mentality behind. Yes, players who are skilled enough are already hitting them, but beginners aren't, and to help ease them into the game more, they should be. Of course, like others have said, the threshold should be quite low or according to OD so that beginners don't have to hit them like streams. Another solution as stated before is allow sliders to be ticked on more than just 1/4 and 1/3. What if sliders could be ticked on 1/2 or 1/1 for easy and slow diffs? What if sliders could be ticked on 1/8 on hard diffs that could potentially give more points? This could be a creative way to use drumrolls in the future. Whatever happens with them, as long as they can appeal to players starting out, it'll be a positive change.

Big notes draining health? That has long since been patched out, as well as combo break or just flat out miss for the big notes. This complaint isn't valid. Please, test out V2 yourself before making these types or remarks. Literally going 10 seconds into a song proved to me that big notes don't drain health at all.

Also, you're saying this as a "right now" basis. If certain changes get made, perhaps in the future, mappers can find new and innovative ways to implement altered spinners and sliders that can attract a bigger player base and both challenge and reward harder players all the same. Yes, right now there aren't many maps that will be changed with this alteration. But perhaps in the future, perhaps the alterations will prove to benefit player and mappers alike through new and creative gameplay. And a negative impact on converted maps? You must not see a lot of converted maps, usually drumrolls don't exist in those regardless because they're converted to 1/dumbnumber don/kat instead, and spinners are a non-issue past most 2008 maps.

Now perhaps this doesn't click immediately. After all, looking at your plays, you definitely are an older player, with your activity being non-existent past 2014, and most of your favorites being from 2014 or earlier. Mapping has changed a bunch, and the playerbase of other modes is increasing due to their accessibility, but Taiko seems to be falling behind activity. On the Gameplay & Rankings forum, the Taiko forum is the least popular, even less so than CTB, and while the overall amount of players in Taiko is higher than CTB, think about how many of those players are from Japan, or have heard of Taiko no Tatsujin before in the past. It's mainly those factors that Taiko has a higher playerbase. Taiko no Tatsujin is a pretty popular game, and a game like osu! to have a simulation of it of some kind will attract those people. The problem with that, is the fact that little to none of these players are new to the game. osu! has grown large, and if new players to osu! were to check all the gamemodes, they'd likely find Taiko the most confusing. None of my friends can get into Taiko like they have with standard, mania, or even CTB, and that's because of all these "optional" objects, because of the inaccessability of Taiko. Some say it's the colors of the notes confusing them, but most people I talk to say it's because there's so many mechanics tossed at the player at once that they don't quite know what to do with them, and having them be optional doesn't help matters. Part of this might lie in the fact that there is no actual tutorial for Taiko like there is for standard. CTB and Mania don't have them either, but with CTB, it's as simple as moving the character, and Mania looks very similar to many other rhythm games out there, like Guitar Hero, Rock Band, Beatmania, Pop'n Music, the list goes on and on. The point I'm making is that Taiko ScoreV2 is meant to improve the system by not only making the game more similar to the other three modes, but also to make it more accessible.
gensama
I might not really have a place to speak since I'm brand new to this game, but I think it's generally bad to take something that's optional and make it mandatory, at least as far as casual play goes. The freedom to choose what obstacles to worry about or prioritize in a song is a good thing, a "risk vs. reward" system is basically what the big notes and sliders are. If I'm new to a song and am struggling to full combo, I might pass on double hitting the big notes until I master the song, then go for them on future plays. Then I'm rewarded with a bigger score than when I was newer to the song. By making those notes mandatory you remove that, basically making the only variable between scores your accuracy. If the reasoning for that change is to make Taiko more like the other modes, you will accomplish that, but more like the other modes doesn't really equate to a better overall game.

Furthermore I agree with a post above me that newer players are put off by the difficulty. You have a game with a small playerbase, in which new players are overwhelmed by how hard it is, so you make it harder?

I think it's a bad move. This is just my opinion. Feel free to correct me on anything I've said because, like I mentioned, I'm only a few days into Taiko, myself.
FlamingRok
again pal I just said the whole large note fiasco? That's been gone for a while actually. And while I agree that making something similar to the other modes isn't necessarily a better game, it does make it easier to understand, and if there is still enough of a skill threshold available for advanced players to enjoy while still letting newer players get into the game, it would accomplish both. Right now, only a small portion of the drumroll is required for players to pass it, and while I still think that due to how tickmarks work in the first place it's a bit awkward, I think it's a good compromise. And for spinners, this honestly should've been a change a while ago, and while it messes up the 0.01~ of gimmick maps that drain your life thanks to spinners, the other 99.99~ of maps will be generally unaffected by them.

The counterargument to this of course is the fact that in CTB, spinners aren't mandatory at all, and for that sure, spinners then could be argued one way or the other for whether they should be necessary or not. However sliders/drumrolls are still all required on all other gamemodes, and if the win condition on the drumrolls is low enough to not punish new players and still keeps the point bonuses for the more skilled players, it all works out in the end.

Now I'm sure many people have brought it up, but as people have said, another reason why people can't get into the game is because there is no designated tutorial for Taiko. The other two gamemodes, CTB and Mania, are very simplistic to understand how to play, that is in CTB you move the player to the fruit, and in Mania you press the key at the right time. It even shows you a little visualization. Taiko compared to all the other gamemodes has as many, if not more mechanics, than even standard mode has, and for it to not have a tutorial makes it even more difficult to get into. That's less of a problem with ScoreV2 and more of a beatmap bundling problem though.

Please, keep up the good work osu!staff. ScoreV2 is looking much nicer than when it initially came out, and it's clear you're listening to at least a vocal majority about major issues.
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