Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Fixed.
yuki_momoiro722
Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Should be there. Have you tried selection-mod-scorev2.png?
CaptainAhab

SteveOsu420 wrote:

Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by this?
darkmiz

CaptainAhab wrote:

SteveOsu420 wrote:

Definitely YES For me :)

But anyways, there's no Score V2 .png skinning. Where is it imo?
Forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by this?
the mod icon, like selection-mod-nofail.png for nofail
Syphist
I still have some problems with the current system, as they do not reflect how taiko is supposed to play. I'll list them below.

  1. GOOD notes counting for 1/3 instead of 1/2 - it's far less punishing and a good middle ground to have it at 1/2, it's one of the reasons I prefer Taiko over STD, it puts way less pressure on perfection
  2. Some drum roll ticks being required and drum rolls counting towards combo - what, why? They were optional in the original game, and gimmick maps will suffer. This is just nonsensical no matter how I try to look at it
  3. Same as above but with spinners - this is also dumb. Why count extra points to the overall accuracy and combo? It takes away from the original game


All in all it feels like you are trying to make taiko play like the other modes, and it honestly isn't supposed to play like them.


Here is what I do like about the system though.

  1. Accuracy based score - OG Taiko scoring is nice, acc scoring sounds better. I'd like to see my score reflect how well I hit the notes rather than seeing a score tank because I break combo 3 times instead of too.
  2. New HDHR - Wow, it's actually readable, thank you


In all honesty if this is never going to be used outside of tournaments and anyone who wants to toggle it on then I'd say this state is passable as a final release. If this is never going to affect casual play then basically disregard this post.

EDIT:
I discussed this with some people in #taiko and an idea that came up was to have both systems have their own kind of separate ranking system. Kind of like competitive and casual you see in most games today. That might actually be something cool to see come to osu, not just for this mode, but all modes.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Syphist wrote:

I still have some problems with the current system, as they do not reflect how taiko is supposed to play. I'll list them below.

  1. GOOD notes counting for 1/3 instead of 1/2 - it's far less punishing and a good middle ground to have it at 1/2, it's one of the reasons I prefer Taiko over STD, it puts way less pressure on perfection
  2. Some drum roll ticks being required and drum rolls counting towards combo - what, why? They were optional in the original game, and gimmick maps will suffer. This is just nonsensical no matter how I try to look at it
  3. Same as above but with spinners - this is also dumb. Why count extra points to the overall accuracy and combo? It takes away from the original game


All in all it feels like you are trying to make taiko play like the other modes, and it honestly isn't supposed to play like them.


Here is what I do like about the system though.

  1. Accuracy based score - OG Taiko scoring is nice, acc scoring sounds better. I'd like to see my score reflect how well I hit the notes rather than seeing a score tank because I break combo 3 times instead of too.
  2. New HDHR - Wow, it's actually readable, thank you


In all honesty if this is never going to be used outside of tournaments and anyone who wants to toggle it on then I'd say this state is passable as a final release. If this is never going to affect casual play then basically disregard this post.
Firstly, this is _not_ Taiko no Tatsujin. If you want to play TnT go play it, but our goal is not to remain loyal to the original game and copy it mechanic for mechanic.

Two of the three problems you've listed are non-issues - both changes to drum rolls and spinners add a deeper rhythmic sense to their mechanics. As far as I'm concerned this is not going away, however adjustments to the amount of ticks/spins required for 100s/300s can be considered.
agu
Spinners are rhythmic?

Nah but the main problem I have with people arguing that osu!taiko isn't Taiko no Tatsujin say so for changes that makes osu!taiko less unique than other modes, generally. It seems more like trying to make osu!taiko unique by making it less unique and more similiar to other rhythm games, which is dumb and unecessary in my opinion.

My issue with ScoreV2 is that a lot of changes seem unecessary and honestly dumbed down to be more like other rhythm games.
Syphist

agu wrote:

Spinners are rhythmic?

Nah but the main problem I have with people arguing that osu!taiko isn't Taiko no Tatsujin say so for changes that makes osu!taiko less unique than other modes, generally. It seems more like trying to make osu!taiko unique by making it less unique and more similiar to other rhythm games, which is dumb and unecessary in my opinion.

My issue with ScoreV2 is that a lot of changes seem unecessary and honestly dumbed down to be more like other rhythm games.
Pretty much this. I could care less with the underlying score that's changed. It's when you make force it to be a game it was never meant to be. Also I agree, how are spinners even rhythmic? It's just spamming the alternating k and d as fast as possible. Another question, why is someone who has not actively played osu!taiko in 2 years spearheading the score change, shouldn't it be an active player that actually understands the game?
peppy
Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
Gezoda
My only worry for the far future is that sliders will slowly die out in favor of spinners, as there will be practically no reason to use them over spinners because of the fixed tick rate (for high or low BPM). While I'm not asking to have a fix right away for TWC, it would be nice to see if anything can be done about it later on.

I mean no one wants 1/4 25 BPM ticks :thinking:
Nwolf
slow songs in general are beyond rare in rhythm games, even more in taiko

I don't see sliders dying out either, as spinners end when the player completes aka not the song, while the slider still adds something rhythmic to the song, and also ends together with the song (as the mapper has intended). Most maps already use 1/4 tick sliders anyway, so that's not changing. I believe sliders won't become an endangered species in taiko, they will stay as uncommon as they are now.
Syphist

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Syphist wrote:

peppy wrote:

Keep in mind we are attempting to standardise our various games modes to allow for better modularity and future extensibility. One of the things that I believe should be standardised is that every object gives at least one combo.
So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
Syphist

smoogipooo wrote:

Syphist wrote:

So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
Nope sorry, this thread is not for complaining about the "uniqueness" or the roots of taiko. Can you please stop mentioning this if you have nothing productive to say otherwise? Thanks. I will not be speaking of that topic henceforth.

And for the record I'm not designing the system myself.
I was making suggestions on how to not make changes for the worse, instead you oversimplify my points and misrepresent what I'm trying to say. Honestly if you're not going to listen to what I have to say or take the time to create a proper response and instead dodge around the points it's not even worth my energy.
Gintoki8
I don't even understand why a new system have to come up(not everyone are competing as long as I know) and was pretty satisfied with the old one. Why a Mania copy?

But at least being able to play hidden + HR correctly feels so great OMG
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

Gintoki8 wrote:

I don't even understand why a new system have to come up(not everyone are competing as long as I know) and was pretty satisfied with the old one. Why a Mania copy?

But at least being able to play hidden + HR correctly feels so great OMG
??????.???????? Mania copy? In what way? Please close your browser and never return to this thread.

I will be removing any further posts that derail the topic and don't provide any constructive feedback. Make your own thread if that's what you want to do.
Gintoki8
Hey that's just what it felt when the total score is 1M + if the HP bar come + the "everything count as a hit". That's it. But I don"t know the full details of the scoring system I was just giving my first impression so sorry if you took it the wrong way.
FlamingRok

Syphist wrote:

So that's the excuse for making the mode less unique? The reason I (I can't speak for others) was attracted to Taiko was because of how unique it was. By making drum rolls and spinners required objects you are essentially turning Taiko into a more mania like game and removing it from its roots completely. If you REALLY need to have them as required objects, the conditions to count them as a miss should be incredibly low to still reflect the roots of where the mode came from. Also just a thought, but it might help if the people designing the score system actually actively played the mode.
While spinners and sliders are definitely required objects now, they are exactly what you said they should be. You have to hit a very small amount of the ticks at usual OD levels, and even at the highest, it's still less than half of the ticks, making the conditions to count them as a miss being rather low. Spinners were never a big issue and I'm more than certain many players were already completing or nearly completing the spinners to their entirety. This change does nearly nothing to spinners, other than importance.

Actually, my main concern is the fact that players new to Taiko might not be able to complete sliders accurately due to their nature of being similar to a mono-color stream. It seems like quite a step up from anything seen in a Kantan, Futsuu, or even Muzukashii for that matter. I understand that the percentage of required ticks reduce depending on the OD, but it still feels like it could be too intimidating for newcomers, and might isolate those who want to get into Taiko further. Spinners are fine, they require very few hits, and end as soon as all the hits are required, and even if you don't complete it, you're likely to get a 100 instead due to how quickly spinners can be completed. Though I will say, there is a sense of joy of getting points while hitting the spinner as opposed to only the end. A really simple fix to this is to award a small amount of points per hit, and then have the final hit be worth the most, like how again old Taiko has it, but still supporting the idea of ScoreV2 by not enough hits resulting in either a 100 or a miss. This would keep a sense of accomplishment to a spinner throughout rather than just the end of it, though this is a pretty minor point that I'm sure not everyone feels the same about.

There are a few solutions with the sliders I can think of right off the bat, all with their own benefits and downsides, though if the improvement of ScoreV2 continues the way that it has, it likely won't need any of this.

1. The easiest solution: just negate the possibility of sliders becoming a miss and instead have them contribute to or past the 1mil limit, similar to how old sliders were. The main downside to this of course is that beginners may neglect sliders too much, which can form bad habits, and it'd be reverting back to the old style of Taiko, though to some that might not be a bad thing. The benefit to this is that it would reward the more skilled players for fully hitting the sliders, whether it's to be able to hit that max score, or to even go beyond that max score.

2. Change the sliders to act similarly to how they work in original Taiko, but keep the percentage based sliders. This might seem odd, but if sliders could be introduced to players as "hit the drum as often as possible to clear the slider", it would be easier for newcomers to complete sliders. A few downsides to this is that it would kind of negate spinners to a certain extent, and points earned during the slider past the completion percentage might have to be awarded as bonus points, which might create a huge points inflation. Also, it would completely change how sliders had even acted before, which as we can tell from the osu! ScoreV2, people can go apeshit over this (for seemingly no reason?). However once again, this would reward skilled players for being able to rapidly hit the sliders compared to others, and could create new interesting mapping opportunities depending on who uses this to their benefit.

3. This has been added already to the minimal effect, but perhaps a slider hitting a repeat arrow could count as a tick mark, with how long the slider lasts being the exact same as how it is now. Currently you can make 1/3 tick mark sliders, which has pleased many people in the community, but why stop at 1/3 tick marks? Why not 1/1 or 1/2 tick marks for the beginners, or even 1/6 or 1/8 on the more difficult or point plentiful maps? Of course, the main disadvantage is if the beginners miss the tick marks on the 1/1 or 1/2 tick marks, there are less opportunities to save the slider, or if 1/6 or 1/8 sliders were used on beginner maps to try and give the player more opportunities, then the number of ticks required due to the percentage system would increase, which again makes it more difficult on the beginner players. However, with more tick mark options gives more creative opportunity to mappers, and more enjoyability can be delivered to players when used properly, as well as still rewarding the more skilled players for hitting all the tick marks in a slider.

These were just a few ideas, and none of them really have to be used of course. I can confidently say that I am looking forward to the future of ScoreV2 after the consistent listening to the ideas of the community rather than shutting them out. Thank you for the continuous work on osu! and ScoreV2.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
I agree that the way spinners and sliders work with Scorev2 currently may be confusing for beginners. I am tending towards your second suggestion for both sliders and spinners.
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