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posted

magnomizer wrote:

many things
To be honest, personally I don't even see why we have to mess with scroll speed in the first place. Surely this is a problem if suddenly score V2 + EZ is faster than score V1 nomod :/
posted
Disregarding my embarrassing first post, Scorev2 is fantastic at a competitive and tournament standpoint. People need to stop complaining about their regular play when it changes little to nothing about how you really play. The chances of there being maps where you cannot hit finishers/sliders/spinners in the pool are none. We will literally be playing the same. Nonetheless I still have a few criticisms on the matter.



This should not be changed, the preference between 4:3 and 16:9 is entirely opinion based and neither gives any visual advantage. The ability to see more notes is purely the nature of widescreen alone and it shouldn't be touched. The ability to see more notes can't necessarily be said to be an advantage because it can be a disadvantage for the same reason. Too many notes can overload your mind and confuse some people, while with 4:3 too little notes can bother people and that would cause a bit of annoyance. This also plays into the fact that people have played on 16:9 since they started and the new slider velocities would require people to relearn the way you play on 16:9 resolutions. Less importantly; Ultra wide 21:9 players are affected seriously by this as for it is basically impossible to play, even without HR.
Some of the only few reasons I disagree to this is due to the fact that some people have keyboards that cannot detect 2 keys at a time. This can also be affected by play style in regards to finishers at the end of 1/4 patterns, not a lot of people can consistently hit that stuff and it's not simply a lack of skill but the inability due to a play style.
This very clever in a tournament standpoint, but it's not perfect. With the way that Taiko works in osu specifically, Note-locking can cause an instant fail for possibly a whole team! I would be one to ask to remove note lock, but I simply don't know how.. Taikojiro has no Note-locking because if you were to hit the wrong note when another comes up, it ignores the input and lets the note miss. The problem with this system is that people could simply spam both Kat and Don to a 1/4 scale and hit anything. My solution would to make it immediately register as a miss if you hit both notes, but if you simply hit the wrong note then ignore the input. Much easier said than done though. Maybe you could figure something out with that.


Overall, besides a few issues I've seen with the score not scaling properly with nomod SS ranks(Score of 1000333 for example), this new score system looks much better than it used to upon first impression and I am proud to see community involvement in the Taiko community finally in a long time. (Now all we need are official beatmapping contests such as Aspire to be run for Taiko) *runs*

Good luck on development!

Edit: I meant to mention that this system looks good for a tournament setting only. Any consideration to implement this into the base gameplay of the game I will have to strongly disagree with. If anything I feel like if that was to be considered, then there should be a community vote held something such as that.
posted
Can you Just change ScoreV2 to 眞打Mod ;w;?
posted
Currently, if you miss on a spinner it draws your miss in the middle of the screen, could it get moved back over to the left like a normal miss?
posted

Garpo wrote:

Currently, if you miss on a spinner it draws your miss in the middle of the screen, could it get moved back over to the left like a normal miss?
Maybe that location could just be skinnable like current regular hit judgements
posted
I noticed a different score of a little different thing and wonder if it can be fixed.

When you hit big note with 2 buttons and counted as geki.. the combo is counted '1' for that big note.
When you hit big note with 2 buttons and not counted as geki.. the combo is counted '2' for that big note and will receive more score due to new combo on second hit.

I included some screenshots below for prove.





Sorry if same thing had been posted before.
posted

Loctav wrote:

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all
the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

That's what unique about taiko. Are you going to force the meta? Every mode have different unique mechanic and it's not good to break any of them. I'd rather ignore some of the sliders for stamina with the cost of a lil bit of my score. But sliders now affect acc and combo? really? how about those sliders with only 3 - 5 ticks? What if you hit the first and then being notelocked? great. a miss / a 100. I'm ok with the spinners tho, as long as the map pool have no ninja one. HP is ok and unique so it shouldn't change imo. #RespectTaikoNoTatsujin. Remember what's taiko mode origin.

Garpo wrote:

The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

the default taiko HP system doesnt make inherent sense, though. although it being overtuned (as said), I don't mind this kind of HP at all. it works for mania, though works for taiko, too.

STOP FREAKING COMPARING TAIKO AND MANIA 4K, IT IS NOT THE FREAKING SAME. The keyboard overlay maybe the same, but the skills required to play is never the same. Otherwise why do we have to seperate those mode? Maybe many top taiko players are good at mania and vice versa, but that not make everything works for mania to works for taiko too. Just... seriously, just stop it. Does mania have completely notelock on stream? Can you press a note on taiko before another when it comes later and still got no miss(es)? Is there any hold note in taiko? etc.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

yeah well, if people wouldn't skin their finisher objects to normal objects and simply ignore a crucial mechanic on beatmaps that are designed in a way that they are way more tricky with playing them but absolutely trivial without (see looming shadows or no money down), this wouldnt need to be a thing. but finishers are a gameplay mechanic - and with old scores, they are entirely optional to do. ignoring mechanics that have been put with full intention to be ignored at all shouldn't be a thing. Hitting finishers should be easier now - or at least, it does actually show you hitting them, as the leniency didn't change (30ms right now I think?)

First of all, some maps have 1/8 stream with finishers at the middle of it. Many, in fact. So if you're planning on doing this, please make sure that 100% of the map is fc-able. Remember that not all of us are _yu. Second of all: if you change the timing difference between 2 button pressed of a finishers to like 30ms, 1/8 stream with finishers at the end/start will be completely ruined as if you press 2 button at different time trying to start the stream, the game might take both of them as the input for the finisher. I just hate the changes on finisher.

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

drum rolls being 1/2 on high BPM doesnt make sense either. drum rolls turning to 1/8 on DT neither. Having them on 1/4 is the most proper way to handle this (and making them 1/3 if tickrate is 3, which is hopefully to come, I already brought that up). Ticks are indeed difficult to hit because of some weird note locking, however, you dont have to hit all ticks. a completion is reached with hitting 30% of the slider's ticks. only if you hit less than 30%, you gain a miss. although we need to look into this note locking, I think it also affects spinners.

I agree with you on this.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

even with, imo crying about ninja spinners is really just crying, because completing them isnt even remotely hard and ignoring them should be as punished as finishers (same reason)

Nope, cancer roll speed maps like THIS (Imagine the spinner is ninja). RIP FOR SURE unless you LEARN THE MAP BY HEART (Which is not ok imo)

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.
that's the idea. there is the same accuracy/combo weighting as in mania right now (iirc? don't quote me here). Taiko relies less on combo and tiering score increase now - and taiko always punished those who don't play perfectly every time, so this isn't really a concern
LOL sorry i just read it right now.
All in all, I think doing this is the step into the right direction, HP drain is harsh and can't behave like in osu!standard (dunno if it considers NCs, if yes, it shouldn't), OD ratings stayed the same and I think we didn't really talk or look into mods (HD, HR, DT, HDHR) yet, so you shouldn't judge that just yet, however preliminary suggestions always work out.


The argument wheter we need this or not is uuuh, let's say that Taiko is probably the most lenient game mode in all of its aspect but hit accuracy (has the harshest hit windows of all game modes), however Taiko allows you to ignore pretty much over the half of its mechanics and just faceroll through all the normal notes. ScoreV2 gives the other half of the mechanics a way higher weightening, changes how maps play and reduce the cheesing through game mechanics (here again: SKINS) and make the maps and its elements be played the way they are supposed to be played.
I'd like to play with ScoreV1 this year, giving players around the world 1 year to discover the scoreV2 system and really make it stable.
99.9% sure that Japan will win if ScoreV1 tho.
P/s: Sorry to read the "don't quote" too late.
posted
I'll share how I feel regarding the taiko score v2. Despite being told not to talk about the pp system, I feel like it's relevant in this discussion since changes on the score v2 (which changes core mechanics of the game) implies a change on the rankings and pp system.

Finishers

Requiring two buttons for a finisher is a very risky move to pull against all current taiko players:
-The beginners and new players (0-2000pp) will probably have a lot of problems with this simple change, besides entering a slope in difficulty, they'll have to deal with the new finishers. A lot of these players STILL play converts (most of them are standard players) and converts are plagued with finishers that many are impossible to hit frustrating these new players and potentially make them stop playing taiko. (Note that in this point of time/skill most players quit taiko)
-Higher skilled players will also suffer from problems. From adapting to a new feature to having ranked maps being impossible to FC, these players will also face hardships since some DT's and converts will be non-viable as long with many unranked gimmicky maps.




Scroll Speed

This is by far the worst change made in score v2. The main problem is that it's completely pointless as it does not fix what was intended nor it is better in any single way comparing to score v1. They tried to balance widescreen and 4:3 (since widescreen had more notes than 4:3 at a given time). The problem is that widescreen was never better than 4:3 since some people preferred 4:3 or some alternated between the two to achieve better results. Widescreen has its own problems for example clutter on the screen making it harder to read.
This attempt to balance aspect ratios is pointless. It makes some maps easier for widescreen players since they don't have much going on the screen. So people will do the same thing: Change between aspect ratio when necessary, making this change pointless while just creating another obstacle.


Suggestions:

Revamp this idea: Instead of scaling between aspect ratio, make the whole play area scale together, that way it can minimize the damage caused by this change while being a better attempt at balancing the game out. (Will still have many problems)

Let us change the scroll speed might sound absurd at first but Hidden, flashlight and Hard Rock locks the scroll speed, letting players choose how they want to play nomod in every ranked map, getting closer to the so called balance the dev team is searching for.

Or just give us the old scroll speed back....


Spinners and Sliders


Nothing majorly bad or good here. Will probably work fine on the majority of maps except unranked and some ranked maps with very short and fast and short sliders.



New HP meter and drain

Shouldn't exist as it makes a lot of maps a pain in the ass due to failing long streams and causing insta-fail. Destroys unranked and gimmicky maps.



Unranked/Loved maps


Might be seen as collateral damage but these are important. Taiko shouldn't be built solely around competitiveness because games are meant to be fun and so are many unranked and gimmicky maps. Just because they aren't focus of rankings and scores doesn't mean they aren't played or liked. It's like saying no one plays surf or bhop in CS:GO, while it is played, it's an addition to the core game, something to do when you're not trying hard or you just want to have some fun or be surprised by trippy maps. (Don't forget why they added the 'loved' section.)
So, I think the devs should also give some love to these maps and maybe create special rules towards them that makes them playable in score v2.
Score v2 makes many gimmicky maps impossible (example: katacheh's Cirno's Perfect Math Class). So the mappers should have the possibility of choosing to allow disable some features that come with Score v2 (HP,Spinners, finishers, etc..) These maps CAN'T be ranked but at least they are possible due to these changes.
Downside: More work for the devs :D

Score v2 will surely imply a change of pp formula. Score v2 is built around having 1.000.000 max score and it's more weighted towards accuracy. So what does this mean?
-No more stupidly weighted 10 min maps
-Finishers being broken won't cause that much of a difference since it's based around Acc not combo. (Might justify new finishers)
-Less weight towards converts or no converts at all
But unfortunately, a new pp system is an awful idea. Converts players will be massively impacted, new scroll speed will make some people not able to complete some maps they previously did. All these contributing to the loss of pp and destroys the motivation that keeps us going on this wasteland of a mode.


Closing thoughts and tldr

Show more love to unranked maps
Change the Scroll speed
Be careful in how you change (in case you change) the pp formula
Finishers are.. meh.

I don't want to hate on what's being done to taiko, I'm just sending out some opinions and points of view that probably weren't discussed before in hope of reaching the team that keeps osu!taiko rolling.
And maybe score v2 will only be used in TWC.. Who knows?




Oh, and by the way, thanks for making HR and HD a thing :)
posted
[*] The note scroll speeds not adjust based on resolution. The default resolution is 4:3. As such, the track is no longer cut to a 4:3 resolution with HD.
[*] HDHR now accounts for the HR speed multiplier to make notes as visible as with just HD.
Great change! maybe consider this for normal taiko play as well!!

[*] Finishers now give a 300/100 hit for successful hits with the first key, and 900/300 hit for successful hits with the second key. Thus the total max score attainable from a finisher is 1200/400 (4x a normal hit).
[*] Not pressing the second key for finishers now results in a combo break (but not a miss).
[*] Finishers no longer require double presses.[/list]
Original:
  1. Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
  2. Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
so just pressing finishers with one key is the very same as not pressing it at all, but with 300 points difference and in the score screen it is not shown as a miss, but practically it is the very same as a miss
..why? sorry but from my viewpoint this is so stupid, it just feels like an insane punishment when every point matters anyway, why destroy the entire combo?
not declaring it as a miss then is so inconsistent as well. when everyone in standard hates slider breaks, well lets bring them to taiko!
not mentioning that it was legit play for as long as taiko exists.
just no.. please.. i dont think double punish or even the combo break alone is reasonable

HP drain for misses has been halved.
Original:
[*] Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
i very much dislike the idea of taiko having hp like mania or standard, but cant really tell a reason why (probably just because im used to the old stuff)

[*] Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
last i checked it was 150 for inaccurate hits
Edit 2017/01/30:
  1. Drum roll tick notelocking has been removed.
  2. Drum roll ticks are now worth 200 points.
  3. Drum roll ticks are now forced to 1/3 spacing if the beatmap has a slider tick rate of 3.
  4. Drum roll ticks are now counted towards the "bonus" portion of the score. This is added on top of the 1000000 score.
  5. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 15% of the ticks, a 100 will be given if the player has hit between 15% and 30% of the ticks, and a miss will be given if the player has hit more than 30% of the ticks. This percentage is adjusted linearly based on Overall Difficulty, and is calculated linearly between minimum values of 5%/10% at OD = 0 and maximum values 15%/30% at OD >= 6.
  6. Drum roll ticks no longer award HP.

Original:
  1. Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
  2. Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
  3. Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
  4. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
  5. Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.


Edit 2017/01/30:
  1. Spinner notelocking has been removed.
  2. Spinners now give misses if the player has spun less than or equal to the amount of required rotations, a 100 hit if the player has spun more than 50% of the required rotations, and a 300 hit if the player has spun 100% of the required rotations.

Original:
  1. A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
  2. A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
  3. Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
somewhat unnecessary buffs to spinners and rolls, i dont think this is the change taiko needs.


also: why do you always try to put everything into the single metric of acc and combo? why dont you try something like a seperate counting for spinners/rolls/finishers
the world is not 2-dimensional. i dont think all of this changes taiko scoring for the better. it just gets more flaws with this


/my opinion.
sorry if you read the same stuff in some way or another from posters before me or posts why im wrong, its just the way i think about it. [ 1 key finisher = no break! ..please :cry: ]
posted
Tried new changes.

- Scrolling is glorious for widescreen again. I can't tell if 4:3 is seriously affected or not. Briefly tried HDHR on 4:3 and it seemed more playable than before (though 16:9 HDHR still feels easier to me, not sure if just because I'm a 16:9 player or not.) Black box coming back for 16:9 is reasonable given 4:3 would be disadvantaged otherwise.
- Finisher changes are extremely reasonable now while still rewarding proper hits (no more combo break people)
- HP still seems to be v2 though I'm sure it's getting fixed cause it says it's supposed to be v1 so no concerns here.
posted
Quick update: I would've liked to remove the "black box" forcing 16:9 to 4:3, and I have a proof of concept ready, but I couldn't get it to work flawlessly. It is very difficult to get the proper logic to work and I think I'm just about done racking my head over it, sorry!

Let's keep the discussions going for the other areas! :)
posted
One thing about the health system that I was discussing with another user. The current system for V1 is good but there is a small problem with it in the regards to misses at the beggining not hurting as much as later on. This is because you have 0 health to lose if you miss the first note so it's only penalizing in the sense of not gaining HP but not in the loss of HP as you would get at other points further in the map.

Solution for this would be to have the same HP system but start the bar halfway full. Also 75% Filled would be a pass now and as much health to go from 0-100% would be required to go from 50-100% in new system. Miss penalty would also have to be tweaked so it removed an appropriate amount of HP. This way screwing up at the beggining of a song would cause the HP bar to go below 50% causing equal penalty to missing at any other part of the song.
posted
nice update
posted
posted
Sooo it's 4:3 players turn to get fucked? Not sure why you dont keep both resolutions but Im not gonna register for that single reason and might not be the only one doing so. Idk if your plan is to get even less people participating but if so then yea sure keep going :roll:

v edit : "make 16:9 the reference solution", well if thats not the case dont write it then???
posted

Nofool wrote:

Sooo it's 4:3 players turn to get fucked? Not sure why you dont keep both resolutions but Im not gonna register for that single reason and might not be the only one doing so. Idk if your plan is to get even less people participating but if so then yea sure keep going :roll:
Not sure what you mean by this? How does this affect anything for 4:3 players? The only thing this affects is 16:9 players being forced to 4:3 with HDHR.
posted
uhm any plan to make the scorev2 to fallback too? It's quite ridiculous that old pc can't use scorev2 (but long long ago i tried scorev2 on ctb on fallback or so D: ). Sadly i can't check the new ScoreV2 update. I will keep my eyes on the discussion as well. :/
posted

Niko-nyan wrote:

uhm any plan to make the scorev2 to fallback too? It's quite ridiculous that old pc can't use scorev2 (but long long ago i tried scorev2 on ctb on fallback or so D: ). Sadly i can't check the new ScoreV2 update. I will keep my eyes on the discussion as well. :/
Not for the time being no. It's made specifically for the TWC right now, which fallback players will not be able to participate in anyway.
posted
The changelog is a bit confusingly written, so you probably want to stick to the opening post and read up the changes there. Regarding finishers, I did the math (as promised) and we figured that breaking combo impacts score too hefty along with the bonus multiplier, so we came up with an alternative solution (thanks to ZiRoX) that just scales the multiplier. The impact on score for ignoring finishers would still be pretty hefty.

Making them not combo break is still not really my favorite, but for now, it's the best solution.
posted
The finishers having bigger impact is a problem in the current play system. It's not better than breaking combos when not hitting both sides, it's just different.
Finishers having bigger impact will mean that people will avoid them at all in every single play in the current pp system since only the top score play matters and people will purposely not hit the finishers since it won't break the combo and will give them another way to secure, in the future a better score that wields more pp.
This backfires on pp players since score is not weighted, only if you want to farm top 50's and for championships.
(Assuming score v2 completely replaces score v1)
Suggestion: Let the play that wields more pp count instead of the one with most score (They already did this with different mods)


Is the HR supposed to be weaker in score v2? 'Cause that seems the case.
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