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Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Loctav

Jaye wrote:

I think having a mandatory 4x score or miss is a VERY large punishment for a tournament setting, especially for many maps (such as Loctav's) that overkill Finishers (ironically, with the way Finishers are now, his maps are virtually unplayable xD). However, giving the player a miss for technically hitting a note is a no-go, it's unfair and uncalled for. I think having a 4x score on Finishers, as opposed to the standard 2x, will place a larger emphasis on the appropriate hitting of Finishers like Loctav is trying to get at with this change.
I tend to agree that doing *both* is maybe overkill. But I want to math out multiple scenarios first and then make some sort of choice here.
MMzz
Most of my points are formed from the perspective of being a mapper and high level player. Keep that in mind. Also I didn't read anything in this thread I'm just throwing out my opinions based off what is written in the OP.

- Combo breaking on Spinners and Drumrolls seems really harsh because they are intended to be filler, not a mechanic that defines your skill. Nothing about missing a couple bonus points warrants your overall score of the map being diminished. But if the mechanics behind Spinners and Drumrolls were changed to have something that actually take some skill and not mindless mashing to the rhythm, then misses for incomplete sections would make sense.

- Having combo breaks on incomplete Finishers almost falls under the same realm as my argument for Combos and Spinners. Finishers are rarely used with the intention of the player hitting both sides while designing a map. More times than not finishers are just sound aesthetics. The only time this would be untrue are cases where the mapper is placing finishers at the ends of 1/3 and 1/4 streams, or 1/3 finisher spam similar to this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/237306 While the latter is much more rare case it is worth mentioning.

Hitting 2 keys at once is no amazing feat reached by the player with tons of practice, but hitting the keys at once in succession directly after streaming (or even while streaming in the case of 1/3 note) is something that takes some time to learn and perfect. So when the majority of the time finishers are not being used as something that takes that specific skilll, having a combo break for them being incomplete is unfair.

- HP staying the way it is now but misses just being weighed more heavily? The mania HP system would be much better for taiko and give passing maps more value. Most of the time you can just play the last sections of a map decently and you'll get a pass when you've tanked the first portion. This is mainly to blame because no one uses very high HP in ranked maps, but also by how the HP system currently works.
XK2238

Loctav wrote:

I tend to agree that doing *both* is maybe overkill. But I want to math out multiple scenarios first and then make some sort of choice here.
one attempt of an example scenario would be this map that was in last year's LMS; it has a pretty lengthy 1/2-snap D K D K D K D K ... section at 260 BPM which is VERY difficult to double-hit all the way through without risking misses. In the instance where both sides pull FC's and the winning side doesn't double-hit any of them, the losing side only needs to double-hit some (if not all) finishers of ONE color to seal the game, even if they're behind by around 4x100, 12x100, or 25x100 or so. Basically, it's about double-hitting more than the opponent(s) without missing, with that section being in kiai time to further emphasize it. based on a true story

In v2, with the 4x alone (without the combo break), you can probably miss a few times mid-song and still get above your FC-ing opponent -- provided you double-hit enough finishers more than your opponent -- which makes it a much more severe penalty compared to v1, considering how combo is lighter compared to v1. But then again, where would the fun be when not double-hitting finishers ruins your combo-portion score just because there's this single-/double-hit registration issue and other related stuffs still lying around?
k3v227
Another point to consider about finishers causing a combo break:

Here are two examples (there are certainly more instances of this concept in other maps):

2:04
0:14


This greatly impacts high-BPM play because sometimes it is very difficult for players to hit finishers with two fingers. Not every taiko player has the same skill, ability, and playstyle so it's unreasonable to arbitrarily define "high-BPM play" because it's relative for every player. For some taiko players this is 180BPM, and for applerss this is 380bpm (LOL). So if a lower-skilled taiko player is struggling to hit finishers at 180BPM it's wrong to just tell them to "get good" and "play the game properly" because they can't in that moment. Why should they be penalized for something that they can't fix? You can extend this to a higher-skilled player struggling to hit finishers at 300BPM. Telling them to "get good" and "play the game properly" absolutely wouldn't make sense here because where do you draw the line? At what BPM is it acceptable to not play finishers with two fingers because it's too difficult? You can always tell any player to just "get good" because they can improve over time, but that line of thought has no place in determining game mechanics; that people need to just "get good".


It's one thing to want to change finishers because players are skinning them out or because they are choosing not to play them with two fingers. But it is wrong to have your combo break because you unable to play the finisher with two fingers. I think having x4 score for two fingers and x1 score for one finger is adequate incentive for players to play finishers with two fingers within their own ability.
Bramble

conor wrote:

please use this thread for what it was intended for instead of ignoring the massive red text in the first post

this mode will forever stay the same because of reasons like you lot

nobody was asking about your participation either but thanks for adding that comment in anyway
Can you stop being a shit. What are you gonna do, kill me because I forgot about red text I read 4 days ago?

Conor wrote:

animexamera wrote:
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?

how about you fuck off already and come back with something beneficial towards this new system?

the current system we have is bad and anybody who thinks otherwise is absolutely delusional

it might be a foreign concept to you but when enough people make their voice heard about certain things they get changed

basically quit being a shit and get the changes you want instead (which funnily enough are the ones almost everybody else wants and they're currently getting)
It's fine to correct us, but don't act like you're 3 while you do it. If you're gonna tell the internet you're 20 years old, then act like a fucking 20 year old.
karterfreak

k3v227 wrote:

Another point to consider about finishers causing a combo break:

Here are two examples (there are certainly more instances of this concept in other maps):

2:04
0:14
Both of these examples are possible with any playstyle. There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.

k3v227 wrote:

Not every taiko player has the same skill, ability, and playstyle so it's unreasonable to arbitrarily define "high-BPM play" because it's relative for every player. For some taiko players this is 180BPM, and for applerss this is 380bpm (LOL). So if a lower-skilled taiko player is struggling to hit finishers at 180BPM it's wrong to just tell them to "get good" and "play the game properly" because they can't in that moment. Why should they be penalized for something that they can't fix?
This is almost on equivalent of saying 300+bpm maps should be banned because lower skill level players can't play that fast, or that LN's shouldn't break combo in mania because some players can't hold notes while pressing others. To add to that, they most certainly CAN fix it by improving their skill at that mechanic (aka: 'getting good').

k3v227 wrote:

You can extend this to a higher-skilled player struggling to hit finishers at 300BPM. Telling them to "get good" and "play the game properly" absolutely wouldn't make sense here because where do you draw the line? At what BPM is it acceptable to not play finishers with two fingers because it's too difficult? You can always tell any player to just "get good" because they can improve over time, but that line of thought has no place in determining game mechanics; that people need to just "get good".
I'm still waiting to see a map that has impossible to hit finishers that isn't a convert. So far every map I've been linked is possible with proper reading and finger coordination. 300bpm+ is reaching an extremely fast speed for most players at high level (barring players like yu / applerss / a few others), so of course hitting finishers at that speed is hard, playing anything at that speed is hard irrelevant of finishers, especially considering the rules around them completely preventing players from having to (excuse mania terminology) do jacks at all unless there are multiple finishers in quick succession.

Now I want to say I do agree single hits shouldn't break combo so long as the 4x multiplier stays (to prevent breaking old plays if the new system does get put into place and for gimmick maps to still be possible to create), but can we please not use reasoning pertaining to some players not having the skill to do it as an argument?
Backfire
Thank you for editing your comment.
karterfreak
Barring one comment I made (will edit it out as it is unnecessary, was just stunned by the thought process), I have provided counterpoints, which isn't being aggressive. Also your 'truth' isn't everyone else's 'truth' about the situation. There are players who do think combo should break if you don't hit finishers and they're within their right to consider that fair and reasonable.

Anyways pertaining to the topic. Extremely eager to see fixes pushed for v2! I'll hold off on contributing anything more here until we see further changes going through / something new is discovered to be wrong as my thoughts so far are pretty apparent throughout the thread.
Bramble

Tasha wrote:

There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.
Just speaking of significantly harder maps, Harpuia
verto
Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Delthas
Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
Ak1o

Delthas wrote:

Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.

_verto_ wrote:

Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Something I wanted to suggest as well, even though I won't go as far as introducing 50s for this. The problem here is that even if you hit the note correctly, you would still get a 100 for it, which makes no sense. Perfect hits on finishers should always give 300, no matter if hit once or twice.

So far I am mostly for the 4x multiplier if hit twice and no combobreak if hit once. Another thought I had is to register 2 hits for combo as well if a finisher is hit twice (iirc it's even a thing rn). Idk how viable this idea is though.
Delthas

Ak1o wrote:

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.
haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko

Ak1o wrote:

But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.
i don't believe that i have any chance to make them cancel this new system even with the best arguments, and i don't think we can fix or modify the score v2 system enough so as to turn it back to the right direction for the game. i've lost any kind of hope regarding the possibility to cancel or fix this and i'm just wondering whether they'll give us at least a "score v1 mod" in order to be able to enjoy the game.
i don't really care that much since i'm going to make a copy of the game as it currently is and block the update servers in my hosts file so that the game never updates again. it's quite sad to have to do this but whatever. i'd make a fork of the game if it were open source but it's still almost entirely closed source so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
Edgar_Figaro
For the finisher idea I think there are a lot of different suggestions each with their merit. So maybe community should vote which they like best?

Option 1: increase score to 4x no combo break
Option 2: keep score 2x but have a 100 for a single button press (so still a 4 difference)
Option 3: make score 4x but have a 100 for single button press (8x total difference)
Option 4: make score 4x and a combo break but no miss for single button press
Option 5: Original concep 4x and a miss for one button press

Let me know if there was any other ideas thrown out that I miss. Also so slight variants don't split votes I say we vote twice. First time to narrow it down to two or three options and 2nd time to then pick from there
Ak1o

Delthas wrote:

edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
I think there was also a suggestion to disable ScoreV2 for these kind of maps. Furthermore,

1. your poll looks rather outdated as the changes presented right here are for taiko only and only a couple of days old (correct me if I'm wrong) and
2. pp is not opened for debate yet (as it is mentioned in the poll).

Delthas wrote:

haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko
I wish people would actually try to have an own opinion instead of always referring to "(high level) mappers", even if they may be more experienced.

Also I highly doubt that any kind of changes will break o!t as it is, believe me or not. Mostly everything stays the same, there are only some points that may influence the playstyle of other players (e.g. hitting finishers twice).
OzzyOzrock
has anyone gotten mad at the SV scaling thing? it looks like garbage tbh if there's any way to preserve the beautifully authentic stacking of notes with 1.4 without changing osu into a square i'd love it
Bramble

OzzyOzrock wrote:

has anyone gotten mad at the SV scaling thing? it looks like garbage tbh if there's any way to preserve the beautifully authentic stacking of notes with 1.4 without changing osu into a square i'd love it
I agree, it took a while for me to finally try it without HDHR BecauseItLooksSoGodDamnBEAUTIFUL and I really don't like the new SV scaling
Conor

Delthas wrote:

snip
why is one of the options for that poll "I don't like it; the current PP system is fine as it is."?

scorev2 is NOT a new pp system. it's a scoring system.

i get seriously confused when people like you say they'll quit or whatever when the actual way you play taiko isn't changing at all. i've been on cutting edge playing with this new system for a week straight and it's pretty much the exact same. the only thing that has truly changed is finishers and my stance on those has been made clear in my previous posts.

if a system that changes the way maps are scored (basically fixed to 1,000,000 with bonus points) forces you to quit then i don't know what to say.
Spagett
suggestion --

give us the new mascot

/s
Bramble
After long consideration, I think the only real issue I have with score V2 is the fact that difficulty spikes can result in failing due to HP. I like having combo breakers, not map breakers :/ It just seems asinine to force us to essentially force maps to be one constant difficulty rather than being able to make it intense in a certain part, you know?
Ak1o

BrambleClaw wrote:

After long consideration, I think the only real issue I have with score V2 is the fact that difficulty spikes can result in failing due to HP. I like having combo breakers, not map breakers :/ It just seems asinine to force us to essentially force maps to be one constant difficulty rather than being able to make it intense in a certain part, you know?
Personally, I think this might be even a good idea and not even as bad as you think of it.

I remember when I started playing Standard mode that I couldn't get past some maps because of patterns that at that point were too difficult for me - so I practiced them. Why couldn't it be the same for Taiko? If not so experienced players get a difficulty spike that they can't master but still want to finish the song, maybe they will try to learn how to play this part without many misses or misses at all.
I know that Standard is not Taiko, but I'd just like to point out a possible similarity. In the end of the day, you could still fail the map with scoreV1 and want to try it again to finally pass it. (so it's basically the same imo)

The other thing is, if there is a really, really intense part (like in some 8* - 10* maps), where one mistake could fuck you over instantly, even though you know how you should play it (because Taiko game mechanics are not perfect), it may be annoying after you retried this song like 100 times just to get a lucky shot and hit all notes properly. This is the only issue I can think of right now, but there could still be ways to prevent this. I mean mappers don't have to put HP6 or HP7 in every high-star map, when they know there will be a part you could die fail very easily in, so players can enjoy the game more instead of "ragequitting" after 100 retrys without success.
Ham5andw1ch
Probably been suggested before, but I need my bubble. We have spinner already, we just need the little bubble. ALSO for the way the skins are handled, would there be a way to get the Pippidon Kai to have a left hit, right hit, and idle animation? I notice when comparing Osu!taiko to arcade taiko, Pippidon cannot hit to the beat without having a 2 frame animation. By having separate sections, you could allow him to do a left hit, right hit, and idle frame in between hits. This would allow old animations to work while making Pippidon Kai more aesthetically pleasing for people used to Taiko No Tatsujin's smooth animations.

Leaving this here, but oops, this was score V2 discussion. I read the osu!weekly wrong and thought I could just suggest anything.
ikin5050
the finishers idea is so bad, they're meant for bonus points if you can hit them, punishing people for not hitting them is stupid

drum rolls i dont get, if you hit over 30% of the ticks you get a miss?

spinners shouldn't give you a miss if you dont hit enough, they're bonus points.

this can in my opinion be used for competitive taiko, but that is not what most of the plays people make are. most people play for their own best score and not competitively
Bramble

ikin5050 wrote:

the finishers idea is so bad, they're meant for bonus points if you can hit them, punishing people for not hitting them is stupid
I mean yeah I agree, but I think people can probably get used to it. I play competitively even in general play, so personally I always try to hit finishers, but I do agree that you shouldn't get a combo break just because you hit it with one button. Seems kind of asinine to me, why break your combo when you did hit the note?
mangomizer
I can't possibly be the only one here to point this out, but why does the relative scroll speed of WS resolutions increase with ScoreV2?

In 4:3 resolutions, the scroll speed is independent of whether ScoreV2 is on/off. However, with WS resolutions, scroll speed increases significantly, having fewer notes on the screen, resulting in an increase in difficulty of reading (basically playing a weaker version of HR). Why should this be the case? Why should ScoreV2 make things more difficult?

Proof/Images (map is Shuffle Heaven, by Nwolf):
4:3 resolution ScoreV1 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7255936
4:3 resolution ScoreV2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7255942

WS resolution ScoreV1 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256018
WS resolution ScoreV2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256034

If you are looking to balance the game by making both resolutions display equal number of notes, surely it makes more sense to "buff" 4:3 resolution instead of "nerfing" WS resolutions? This brings all WS players down a level, as well as giving an unfair advantage to HR players in the upcoming TWC 2017, as some non-HR players will have to adapt to reading higher than normal scroll speeds (with different spacing).

However, I suppose one could conversely argue that if you chose to increase the density of notes in 4:3 resolution, it would have a similar effect in increasing reading difficulty for 4:3 players (thereby giving WS players the advantage, as they no longer need to adapt).

Still, I am wondering about what solutions there are to this? Perhaps changing the actual SIZE of the notes so then you could fit more in a 4:3 resolution? Would making the size of the note independent of the resolution height be a solution? That way the 4:3 resolution is conserved, while the number of notes in both resolution types are still identical.

On a side note, ScoreV2 +EZ mod still has a higher scroll speed than ScoreV1, which I find quite hilarious to be honest.

WS Resolution ScoreV2 + EZ - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256008
WS Resolution ScoreV1 nomod - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256018
Bramble

magnomizer wrote:

many things
To be honest, personally I don't even see why we have to mess with scroll speed in the first place. Surely this is a problem if suddenly score V2 + EZ is faster than score V1 nomod :/
Dargin
Disregarding my embarrassing first post, Scorev2 is fantastic at a competitive and tournament standpoint. People need to stop complaining about their regular play when it changes little to nothing about how you really play. The chances of there being maps where you cannot hit finishers/sliders/spinners in the pool are none. We will literally be playing the same. Nonetheless I still have a few criticisms on the matter.



Base Slider velocity changes
This should not be changed, the preference between 4:3 and 16:9 is entirely opinion based and neither gives any visual advantage. The ability to see more notes is purely the nature of widescreen alone and it shouldn't be touched. The ability to see more notes can't necessarily be said to be an advantage because it can be a disadvantage for the same reason. Too many notes can overload your mind and confuse some people, while with 4:3 too little notes can bother people and that would cause a bit of annoyance. This also plays into the fact that people have played on 16:9 since they started and the new slider velocities would require people to relearn the way you play on 16:9 resolutions. Less importantly; Ultra wide 21:9 players are affected seriously by this as for it is basically impossible to play, even without HR.

Finishers/Combo breaking
Some of the only few reasons I disagree to this is due to the fact that some people have keyboards that cannot detect 2 keys at a time. This can also be affected by play style in regards to finishers at the end of 1/4 patterns, not a lot of people can consistently hit that stuff and it's not simply a lack of skill but the inability due to a play style.

HP Drain
This very clever in a tournament standpoint, but it's not perfect. With the way that Taiko works in osu specifically, Note-locking can cause an instant fail for possibly a whole team! I would be one to ask to remove note lock, but I simply don't know how.. Taikojiro has no Note-locking because if you were to hit the wrong note when another comes up, it ignores the input and lets the note miss. The problem with this system is that people could simply spam both Kat and Don to a 1/4 scale and hit anything. My solution would to make it immediately register as a miss if you hit both notes, but if you simply hit the wrong note then ignore the input. Much easier said than done though. Maybe you could figure something out with that.

Overall, besides a few issues I've seen with the score not scaling properly with nomod SS ranks(Score of 1000333 for example), this new score system looks much better than it used to upon first impression and I am proud to see community involvement in the Taiko community finally in a long time. (Now all we need are official beatmapping contests such as Aspire to be run for Taiko) *runs*

Good luck on development!

Edit: I meant to mention that this system looks good for a tournament setting only. Any consideration to implement this into the base gameplay of the game I will have to strongly disagree with. If anything I feel like if that was to be considered, then there should be a community vote held something such as that.
Quizmaegi
Can you Just change ScoreV2 to 眞打Mod ;w;?
Garpo
Currently, if you miss on a spinner it draws your miss in the middle of the screen, could it get moved back over to the left like a normal miss?
Edgar_Figaro

Garpo wrote:

Currently, if you miss on a spinner it draws your miss in the middle of the screen, could it get moved back over to the left like a normal miss?
Maybe that location could just be skinnable like current regular hit judgements
Roger
I noticed a different score of a little different thing and wonder if it can be fixed.

When you hit big note with 2 buttons and counted as geki.. the combo is counted '1' for that big note.
When you hit big note with 2 buttons and not counted as geki.. the combo is counted '2' for that big note and will receive more score due to new combo on second hit.

I included some screenshots below for prove.


Sorry if same thing had been posted before.
phucdtd

Loctav wrote:

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all
the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

That's what unique about taiko. Are you going to force the meta? Every mode have different unique mechanic and it's not good to break any of them. I'd rather ignore some of the sliders for stamina with the cost of a lil bit of my score. But sliders now affect acc and combo? really? how about those sliders with only 3 - 5 ticks? What if you hit the first and then being notelocked? great. a miss / a 100. I'm ok with the spinners tho, as long as the map pool have no ninja one. HP is ok and unique so it shouldn't change imo. #RespectTaikoNoTatsujin. Remember what's taiko mode origin.

Garpo wrote:

The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

the default taiko HP system doesnt make inherent sense, though. although it being overtuned (as said), I don't mind this kind of HP at all. it works for mania, though works for taiko, too.

STOP FREAKING COMPARING TAIKO AND MANIA 4K, IT IS NOT THE FREAKING SAME. The keyboard overlay maybe the same, but the skills required to play is never the same. Otherwise why do we have to seperate those mode? Maybe many top taiko players are good at mania and vice versa, but that not make everything works for mania to works for taiko too. Just... seriously, just stop it. Does mania have completely notelock on stream? Can you press a note on taiko before another when it comes later and still got no miss(es)? Is there any hold note in taiko? etc.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

yeah well, if people wouldn't skin their finisher objects to normal objects and simply ignore a crucial mechanic on beatmaps that are designed in a way that they are way more tricky with playing them but absolutely trivial without (see looming shadows or no money down), this wouldnt need to be a thing. but finishers are a gameplay mechanic - and with old scores, they are entirely optional to do. ignoring mechanics that have been put with full intention to be ignored at all shouldn't be a thing. Hitting finishers should be easier now - or at least, it does actually show you hitting them, as the leniency didn't change (30ms right now I think?)

First of all, some maps have 1/8 stream with finishers at the middle of it. Many, in fact. So if you're planning on doing this, please make sure that 100% of the map is fc-able. Remember that not all of us are _yu. Second of all: if you change the timing difference between 2 button pressed of a finishers to like 30ms, 1/8 stream with finishers at the end/start will be completely ruined as if you press 2 button at different time trying to start the stream, the game might take both of them as the input for the finisher. I just hate the changes on finisher.

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

drum rolls being 1/2 on high BPM doesnt make sense either. drum rolls turning to 1/8 on DT neither. Having them on 1/4 is the most proper way to handle this (and making them 1/3 if tickrate is 3, which is hopefully to come, I already brought that up). Ticks are indeed difficult to hit because of some weird note locking, however, you dont have to hit all ticks. a completion is reached with hitting 30% of the slider's ticks. only if you hit less than 30%, you gain a miss. although we need to look into this note locking, I think it also affects spinners.

I agree with you on this.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

even with, imo crying about ninja spinners is really just crying, because completing them isnt even remotely hard and ignoring them should be as punished as finishers (same reason)

Nope, cancer roll speed maps like THIS (Imagine the spinner is ninja). RIP FOR SURE unless you LEARN THE MAP BY HEART (Which is not ok imo)

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.
that's the idea. there is the same accuracy/combo weighting as in mania right now (iirc? don't quote me here). Taiko relies less on combo and tiering score increase now - and taiko always punished those who don't play perfectly every time, so this isn't really a concern
LOL sorry i just read it right now.

All in all, I think doing this is the step into the right direction, HP drain is harsh and can't behave like in osu!standard (dunno if it considers NCs, if yes, it shouldn't), OD ratings stayed the same and I think we didn't really talk or look into mods (HD, HR, DT, HDHR) yet, so you shouldn't judge that just yet, however preliminary suggestions always work out.


The argument wheter we need this or not is uuuh, let's say that Taiko is probably the most lenient game mode in all of its aspect but hit accuracy (has the harshest hit windows of all game modes), however Taiko allows you to ignore pretty much over the half of its mechanics and just faceroll through all the normal notes. ScoreV2 gives the other half of the mechanics a way higher weightening, changes how maps play and reduce the cheesing through game mechanics (here again: SKINS) and make the maps and its elements be played the way they are supposed to be played.
I'd like to play with ScoreV1 this year, giving players around the world 1 year to discover the scoreV2 system and really make it stable.
99.9% sure that Japan will win if ScoreV1 tho.
P/s: Sorry to read the "don't quote" too late.
BabySnakes
I'll share how I feel regarding the taiko score v2. Despite being told not to talk about the pp system, I feel like it's relevant in this discussion since changes on the score v2 (which changes core mechanics of the game) implies a change on the rankings and pp system.

Finishers

Requiring two buttons for a finisher is a very risky move to pull against all current taiko players:
-The beginners and new players (0-2000pp) will probably have a lot of problems with this simple change, besides entering a slope in difficulty, they'll have to deal with the new finishers. A lot of these players STILL play converts (most of them are standard players) and converts are plagued with finishers that many are impossible to hit frustrating these new players and potentially make them stop playing taiko. (Note that in this point of time/skill most players quit taiko)
-Higher skilled players will also suffer from problems. From adapting to a new feature to having ranked maps being impossible to FC, these players will also face hardships since some DT's and converts will be non-viable as long with many unranked gimmicky maps.




Scroll Speed

This is by far the worst change made in score v2. The main problem is that it's completely pointless as it does not fix what was intended nor it is better in any single way comparing to score v1. They tried to balance widescreen and 4:3 (since widescreen had more notes than 4:3 at a given time). The problem is that widescreen was never better than 4:3 since some people preferred 4:3 or some alternated between the two to achieve better results. Widescreen has its own problems for example clutter on the screen making it harder to read.
This attempt to balance aspect ratios is pointless. It makes some maps easier for widescreen players since they don't have much going on the screen. So people will do the same thing: Change between aspect ratio when necessary, making this change pointless while just creating another obstacle.

Suggestions:

Revamp this idea: Instead of scaling between aspect ratio, make the whole play area scale together, that way it can minimize the damage caused by this change while being a better attempt at balancing the game out. (Will still have many problems)

Let us change the scroll speed might sound absurd at first but Hidden, flashlight and Hard Rock locks the scroll speed, letting players choose how they want to play nomod in every ranked map, getting closer to the so called balance the dev team is searching for.

Or just give us the old scroll speed back....


Spinners and Sliders


Nothing majorly bad or good here. Will probably work fine on the majority of maps except unranked and some ranked maps with very short and fast and short sliders.



New HP meter and drain

Shouldn't exist as it makes a lot of maps a pain in the ass due to failing long streams and causing insta-fail. Destroys unranked and gimmicky maps.



Unranked/Loved maps


Might be seen as collateral damage but these are important. Taiko shouldn't be built solely around competitiveness because games are meant to be fun and so are many unranked and gimmicky maps. Just because they aren't focus of rankings and scores doesn't mean they aren't played or liked. It's like saying no one plays surf or bhop in CS:GO, while it is played, it's an addition to the core game, something to do when you're not trying hard or you just want to have some fun or be surprised by trippy maps. (Don't forget why they added the 'loved' section.)
So, I think the devs should also give some love to these maps and maybe create special rules towards them that makes them playable in score v2.
Score v2 makes many gimmicky maps impossible (example: katacheh's Cirno's Perfect Math Class). So the mappers should have the possibility of choosing to allow disable some features that come with Score v2 (HP,Spinners, finishers, etc..) These maps CAN'T be ranked but at least they are possible due to these changes.
Downside: More work for the devs :D

PP system / Ranking
Score v2 will surely imply a change of pp formula. Score v2 is built around having 1.000.000 max score and it's more weighted towards accuracy. So what does this mean?
-No more stupidly weighted 10 min maps
-Finishers being broken won't cause that much of a difference since it's based around Acc not combo. (Might justify new finishers)
-Less weight towards converts or no converts at all
But unfortunately, a new pp system is an awful idea. Converts players will be massively impacted, new scroll speed will make some people not able to complete some maps they previously did. All these contributing to the loss of pp and destroys the motivation that keeps us going on this wasteland of a mode.

Closing thoughts and tldr

Show more love to unranked maps
Change the Scroll speed
Be careful in how you change (in case you change) the pp formula
Finishers are.. meh.

I don't want to hate on what's being done to taiko, I'm just sending out some opinions and points of view that probably weren't discussed before in hope of reaching the team that keeps osu!taiko rolling.
And maybe score v2 will only be used in TWC.. Who knows?




Oh, and by the way, thanks for making HR and HD a thing :)
Atomwitzstrahl
SV
[*] The note scroll speeds not adjust based on resolution. The default resolution is 4:3. As such, the track is no longer cut to a 4:3 resolution with HD.
[*] HDHR now accounts for the HR speed multiplier to make notes as visible as with just HD.
Great change! maybe consider this for normal taiko play as well!!

Finishers
[*] Finishers now give a 300/100 hit for successful hits with the first key, and 900/300 hit for successful hits with the second key. Thus the total max score attainable from a finisher is 1200/400 (4x a normal hit).
[*] Not pressing the second key for finishers now results in a combo break (but not a miss).
[*] Finishers no longer require double presses.[/list]
Original:
  1. Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
  2. Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
so just pressing finishers with one key is the very same as not pressing it at all, but with 300 points difference and in the score screen it is not shown as a miss, but practically it is the very same as a miss
..why? sorry but from my viewpoint this is so stupid, it just feels like an insane punishment when every point matters anyway, why destroy the entire combo?
not declaring it as a miss then is so inconsistent as well. when everyone in standard hates slider breaks, well lets bring them to taiko!
not mentioning that it was legit play for as long as taiko exists.
just no.. please.. i dont think double punish or even the combo break alone is reasonable

HP
HP drain for misses has been halved.Original:
[*] Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
i very much dislike the idea of taiko having hp like mania or standard, but cant really tell a reason why (probably just because im used to the old stuff)

LUL
[*] Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
last i checked it was 150 for inaccurate hits
rest
Edit 2017/01/30:
  1. Drum roll tick notelocking has been removed.
  2. Drum roll ticks are now worth 200 points.
  3. Drum roll ticks are now forced to 1/3 spacing if the beatmap has a slider tick rate of 3.
  4. Drum roll ticks are now counted towards the "bonus" portion of the score. This is added on top of the 1000000 score.
  5. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 15% of the ticks, a 100 will be given if the player has hit between 15% and 30% of the ticks, and a miss will be given if the player has hit more than 30% of the ticks. This percentage is adjusted linearly based on Overall Difficulty, and is calculated linearly between minimum values of 5%/10% at OD = 0 and maximum values 15%/30% at OD >= 6.
  6. Drum roll ticks no longer award HP.
Original:
  1. Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
  2. Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
  3. Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
  4. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
  5. Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
Edit 2017/01/30:
  1. Spinner notelocking has been removed.
  2. Spinners now give misses if the player has spun less than or equal to the amount of required rotations, a 100 hit if the player has spun more than 50% of the required rotations, and a 300 hit if the player has spun 100% of the required rotations.
Original:
  1. A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
  2. A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
  3. Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
somewhat unnecessary buffs to spinners and rolls, i dont think this is the change taiko needs.


also: why do you always try to put everything into the single metric of acc and combo? why dont you try something like a seperate counting for spinners/rolls/finishers
the world is not 2-dimensional. i dont think all of this changes taiko scoring for the better. it just gets more flaws with this


/my opinion.
sorry if you read the same stuff in some way or another from posters before me or posts why im wrong, its just the way i think about it. [ 1 key finisher = no break! ..please :cry: ]
karterfreak
Tried new changes.

- Scrolling is glorious for widescreen again. I can't tell if 4:3 is seriously affected or not. Briefly tried HDHR on 4:3 and it seemed more playable than before (though 16:9 HDHR still feels easier to me, not sure if just because I'm a 16:9 player or not.) Black box coming back for 16:9 is reasonable given 4:3 would be disadvantaged otherwise.
- Finisher changes are extremely reasonable now while still rewarding proper hits (no more combo break people)
- HP still seems to be v2 though I'm sure it's getting fixed cause it says it's supposed to be v1 so no concerns here.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
Quick update: I would've liked to remove the "black box" forcing 16:9 to 4:3, and I have a proof of concept ready, but I couldn't get it to work flawlessly. It is very difficult to get the proper logic to work and I think I'm just about done racking my head over it, sorry!

Let's keep the discussions going for the other areas! :)
Edgar_Figaro
One thing about the health system that I was discussing with another user. The current system for V1 is good but there is a small problem with it in the regards to misses at the beggining not hurting as much as later on. This is because you have 0 health to lose if you miss the first note so it's only penalizing in the sense of not gaining HP but not in the loss of HP as you would get at other points further in the map.

Solution for this would be to have the same HP system but start the bar halfway full. Also 75% Filled would be a pass now and as much health to go from 0-100% would be required to go from 50-100% in new system. Miss penalty would also have to be tweaked so it removed an appropriate amount of HP. This way screwing up at the beggining of a song would cause the HP bar to go below 50% causing equal penalty to missing at any other part of the song.
_yu68
nice update
CaptainAhab_old
Nofool
Sooo it's 4:3 players turn to get fucked? Not sure why you dont keep both resolutions but Im not gonna register for that single reason and might not be the only one doing so. Idk if your plan is to get even less people participating but if so then yea sure keep going :roll:

v edit : "make 16:9 the reference solution", well if thats not the case dont write it then???
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