I don't know is it just me but I feel like the HP is really meaningless.
I tend to agree that doing *both* is maybe overkill. But I want to math out multiple scenarios first and then make some sort of choice here.Jaye wrote:
I think having a mandatory 4x score or miss is a VERY large punishment for a tournament setting, especially for many maps (such as Loctav's) that overkill Finishers (ironically, with the way Finishers are now, his maps are virtually unplayable xD). However, giving the player a miss for technically hitting a note is a no-go, it's unfair and uncalled for. I think having a 4x score on Finishers, as opposed to the standard 2x, will place a larger emphasis on the appropriate hitting of Finishers like Loctav is trying to get at with this change.
one attempt of an example scenario would be this map that was in last year's LMS; it has a pretty lengthy 1/2-snap D K D K D K D K ... section at 260 BPM which is VERY difficult to double-hit all the way through without risking misses. In the instance where both sides pull FC's and the winning side doesn't double-hit any of them, the losing side only needs to double-hit some (if not all) finishers of ONE color to seal the game, even if they're behind by around 4x100, 12x100, or 25x100 or so. Basically, it's about double-hitting more than the opponent(s) without missing, with that section being in kiai time to further emphasize it.Loctav wrote:
I tend to agree that doing *both* is maybe overkill. But I want to math out multiple scenarios first and then make some sort of choice here.
Can you stop being a shit. What are you gonna do, kill me because I forgot about red text I read 4 days ago?conor wrote:
please use this thread for what it was intended for instead of ignoring the massive red text in the first post
this mode will forever stay the same because of reasons like you lot
nobody was asking about your participation either but thanks for adding that comment in anyway
It's fine to correct us, but don't act like you're 3 while you do it. If you're gonna tell the internet you're 20 years old, then act like a fucking 20 year old.Conor wrote:
animexamera wrote:
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?
how about you fuck off already and come back with something beneficial towards this new system?
the current system we have is bad and anybody who thinks otherwise is absolutely delusional
it might be a foreign concept to you but when enough people make their voice heard about certain things they get changed
basically quit being a shit and get the changes you want instead (which funnily enough are the ones almost everybody else wants and they're currently getting)
Both of these examples are possible with any playstyle. There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.k3v227 wrote:
Another point to consider about finishers causing a combo break:
Here are two examples (there are certainly more instances of this concept in other maps):
2:04
0:14
This is almost on equivalent of saying 300+bpm maps should be banned because lower skill level players can't play that fast, or that LN's shouldn't break combo in mania because some players can't hold notes while pressing others. To add to that, they most certainly CAN fix it by improving their skill at that mechanic (aka: 'getting good').k3v227 wrote:
Not every taiko player has the same skill, ability, and playstyle so it's unreasonable to arbitrarily define "high-BPM play" because it's relative for every player. For some taiko players this is 180BPM, and for applerss this is 380bpm (LOL). So if a lower-skilled taiko player is struggling to hit finishers at 180BPM it's wrong to just tell them to "get good" and "play the game properly" because they can't in that moment. Why should they be penalized for something that they can't fix?
I'm still waiting to see a map that has impossible to hit finishers that isn't a convert. So far every map I've been linked is possible with proper reading and finger coordination. 300bpm+ is reaching an extremely fast speed for most players at high level (barring players like yu / applerss / a few others), so of course hitting finishers at that speed is hard, playing anything at that speed is hard irrelevant of finishers, especially considering the rules around them completely preventing players from having to (excuse mania terminology) do jacks at all unless there are multiple finishers in quick succession.k3v227 wrote:
You can extend this to a higher-skilled player struggling to hit finishers at 300BPM. Telling them to "get good" and "play the game properly" absolutely wouldn't make sense here because where do you draw the line? At what BPM is it acceptable to not play finishers with two fingers because it's too difficult? You can always tell any player to just "get good" because they can improve over time, but that line of thought has no place in determining game mechanics; that people need to just "get good".
Just speaking of significantly harder maps, HarpuiaTasha wrote:
There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.
But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.Delthas wrote:
Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
Something I wanted to suggest as well, even though I won't go as far as introducing 50s for this. The problem here is that even if you hit the note correctly, you would still get a 100 for it, which makes no sense. Perfect hits on finishers should always give 300, no matter if hit once or twice._verto_ wrote:
Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?
If not, I just did.
Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taikoAk1o wrote:
Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.
i don't believe that i have any chance to make them cancel this new system even with the best arguments, and i don't think we can fix or modify the score v2 system enough so as to turn it back to the right direction for the game. i've lost any kind of hope regarding the possibility to cancel or fix this and i'm just wondering whether they'll give us at least a "score v1 mod" in order to be able to enjoy the game.Ak1o wrote:
But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.
I think there was also a suggestion to disable ScoreV2 for these kind of maps. Furthermore,Delthas wrote:
edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
I wish people would actually try to have an own opinion instead of always referring to "(high level) mappers", even if they may be more experienced.Delthas wrote:
haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko
I agree, it took a while for me to finally try it without HDHR BecauseItLooksSoGodDamnBEAUTIFUL and I really don't like the new SV scalingOzzyOzrock wrote:
has anyone gotten mad at the SV scaling thing? it looks like garbage tbh if there's any way to preserve the beautifully authentic stacking of notes with 1.4 without changing osu into a square i'd love it
why is one of the options for that poll "I don't like it; the current PP system is fine as it is."?Delthas wrote:
snip
Personally, I think this might be even a good idea and not even as bad as you think of it.BrambleClaw wrote:
After long consideration, I think the only real issue I have with score V2 is the fact that difficulty spikes can result in failing due to HP. I like having combo breakers, not map breakers :/ It just seems asinine to force us to essentially force maps to be one constant difficulty rather than being able to make it intense in a certain part, you know?
I mean yeah I agree, but I think people can probably get used to it. I play competitively even in general play, so personally I always try to hit finishers, but I do agree that you shouldn't get a combo break just because you hit it with one button. Seems kind of asinine to me, why break your combo when you did hit the note?ikin5050 wrote:
the finishers idea is so bad, they're meant for bonus points if you can hit them, punishing people for not hitting them is stupid
To be honest, personally I don't even see why we have to mess with scroll speed in the first place. Surely this is a problem if suddenly score V2 + EZ is faster than score V1 nomod :/magnomizer wrote:
many things
Maybe that location could just be skinnable like current regular hit judgementsGarpo wrote:
Currently, if you miss on a spinner it draws your miss in the middle of the screen, could it get moved back over to the left like a normal miss?
I'd like to play with ScoreV1 this year, giving players around the world 1 year to discover the scoreV2 system and really make it stable.Loctav wrote:
the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)n1doking wrote:
what was wrong with the old scoring system
why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine
i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all
That's what unique about taiko. Are you going to force the meta? Every mode have different unique mechanic and it's not good to break any of them. I'd rather ignore some of the sliders for stamina with the cost of a lil bit of my score. But sliders now affect acc and combo? really? how about those sliders with only 3 - 5 ticks? What if you hit the first and then being notelocked? great. a miss / a 100. I'm ok with the spinners tho, as long as the map pool have no ninja one. HP is ok and unique so it shouldn't change imo. #RespectTaikoNoTatsujin. Remember what's taiko mode origin.Garpo wrote:
The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.
Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.
the default taiko HP system doesnt make inherent sense, though. although it being overtuned (as said), I don't mind this kind of HP at all. it works for mania, though works for taiko, too.
STOP FREAKING COMPARING TAIKO AND MANIA 4K, IT IS NOT THE FREAKING SAME. The keyboard overlay maybe the same, but the skills required to play is never the same. Otherwise why do we have to seperate those mode? Maybe many top taiko players are good at mania and vice versa, but that not make everything works for mania to works for taiko too. Just... seriously, just stop it. Does mania have completely notelock on stream? Can you press a note on taiko before another when it comes later and still got no miss(es)? Is there any hold note in taiko? etc.
In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.
yeah well, if people wouldn't skin their finisher objects to normal objects and simply ignore a crucial mechanic on beatmaps that are designed in a way that they are way more tricky with playing them but absolutely trivial without (see looming shadows or no money down), this wouldnt need to be a thing. but finishers are a gameplay mechanic - and with old scores, they are entirely optional to do. ignoring mechanics that have been put with full intention to be ignored at all shouldn't be a thing. Hitting finishers should be easier now - or at least, it does actually show you hitting them, as the leniency didn't change (30ms right now I think?)
First of all, some maps have 1/8 stream with finishers at the middle of it. Many, in fact. So if you're planning on doing this, please make sure that 100% of the map is fc-able. Remember that not all of us are _yu. Second of all: if you change the timing difference between 2 button pressed of a finishers to like 30ms, 1/8 stream with finishers at the end/start will be completely ruined as if you press 2 button at different time trying to start the stream, the game might take both of them as the input for the finisher. I just hate the changes on finisher.
Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.
drum rolls being 1/2 on high BPM doesnt make sense either. drum rolls turning to 1/8 on DT neither. Having them on 1/4 is the most proper way to handle this (and making them 1/3 if tickrate is 3, which is hopefully to come, I already brought that up). Ticks are indeed difficult to hit because of some weird note locking, however, you dont have to hit all ticks. a completion is reached with hitting 30% of the slider's ticks. only if you hit less than 30%, you gain a miss. although we need to look into this note locking, I think it also affects spinners.
I agree with you on this.
Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.
even with, imo crying about ninja spinners is really just crying, because completing them isnt even remotely hard and ignoring them should be as punished as finishers (same reason)
Nope, cancer roll speed maps like THIS (Imagine the spinner is ninja). RIP FOR SURE unless you LEARN THE MAP BY HEART (Which is not ok imo)
What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.
that's the idea. there is the same accuracy/combo weighting as in mania right now (iirc? don't quote me here). Taiko relies less on combo and tiering score increase now - and taiko always punished those who don't play perfectly every time, so this isn't really a concern
LOL sorry i just read it right now.
All in all, I think doing this is the step into the right direction, HP drain is harsh and can't behave like in osu!standard (dunno if it considers NCs, if yes, it shouldn't), OD ratings stayed the same and I think we didn't really talk or look into mods (HD, HR, DT, HDHR) yet, so you shouldn't judge that just yet, however preliminary suggestions always work out.
The argument wheter we need this or not is uuuh, let's say that Taiko is probably the most lenient game mode in all of its aspect but hit accuracy (has the harshest hit windows of all game modes), however Taiko allows you to ignore pretty much over the half of its mechanics and just faceroll through all the normal notes. ScoreV2 gives the other half of the mechanics a way higher weightening, changes how maps play and reduce the cheesing through game mechanics (here again: SKINS) and make the maps and its elements be played the way they are supposed to be played.
[*] The note scroll speeds not adjust based on resolution. The default resolution is 4:3. As such, the track is no longer cut to a 4:3 resolution with HD.
[*] HDHR now accounts for the HR speed multiplier to make notes as visible as with just HD.
[*] Finishers now give a 300/100 hit for successful hits with the first key, and 900/300 hit for successful hits with the second key. Thus the total max score attainable from a finisher is 1200/400 (4x a normal hit).
[*] Not pressing the second key for finishers now results in a combo break (but not a miss).
[*] Finishers no longer require double presses.[/list]
Original:
- Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
- Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
HP drain for misses has been halved.Original:
[*] Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
[*] Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.last i checked it was 150 for inaccurate hits