Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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karterfreak
Barring one comment I made (will edit it out as it is unnecessary, was just stunned by the thought process), I have provided counterpoints, which isn't being aggressive. Also your 'truth' isn't everyone else's 'truth' about the situation. There are players who do think combo should break if you don't hit finishers and they're within their right to consider that fair and reasonable.

Anyways pertaining to the topic. Extremely eager to see fixes pushed for v2! I'll hold off on contributing anything more here until we see further changes going through / something new is discovered to be wrong as my thoughts so far are pretty apparent throughout the thread.
Bramble

Tasha wrote:

There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.
Just speaking of significantly harder maps, Harpuia
verto
Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Delthas
Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
Ak1o

Delthas wrote:

Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.

_verto_ wrote:

Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Something I wanted to suggest as well, even though I won't go as far as introducing 50s for this. The problem here is that even if you hit the note correctly, you would still get a 100 for it, which makes no sense. Perfect hits on finishers should always give 300, no matter if hit once or twice.

So far I am mostly for the 4x multiplier if hit twice and no combobreak if hit once. Another thought I had is to register 2 hits for combo as well if a finisher is hit twice (iirc it's even a thing rn). Idk how viable this idea is though.
Delthas

Ak1o wrote:

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.
haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko

Ak1o wrote:

But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.
i don't believe that i have any chance to make them cancel this new system even with the best arguments, and i don't think we can fix or modify the score v2 system enough so as to turn it back to the right direction for the game. i've lost any kind of hope regarding the possibility to cancel or fix this and i'm just wondering whether they'll give us at least a "score v1 mod" in order to be able to enjoy the game.
i don't really care that much since i'm going to make a copy of the game as it currently is and block the update servers in my hosts file so that the game never updates again. it's quite sad to have to do this but whatever. i'd make a fork of the game if it were open source but it's still almost entirely closed source so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
Edgar_Figaro
For the finisher idea I think there are a lot of different suggestions each with their merit. So maybe community should vote which they like best?

Option 1: increase score to 4x no combo break
Option 2: keep score 2x but have a 100 for a single button press (so still a 4 difference)
Option 3: make score 4x but have a 100 for single button press (8x total difference)
Option 4: make score 4x and a combo break but no miss for single button press
Option 5: Original concep 4x and a miss for one button press

Let me know if there was any other ideas thrown out that I miss. Also so slight variants don't split votes I say we vote twice. First time to narrow it down to two or three options and 2nd time to then pick from there
Ak1o

Delthas wrote:

edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
I think there was also a suggestion to disable ScoreV2 for these kind of maps. Furthermore,

1. your poll looks rather outdated as the changes presented right here are for taiko only and only a couple of days old (correct me if I'm wrong) and
2. pp is not opened for debate yet (as it is mentioned in the poll).

Delthas wrote:

haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko
I wish people would actually try to have an own opinion instead of always referring to "(high level) mappers", even if they may be more experienced.

Also I highly doubt that any kind of changes will break o!t as it is, believe me or not. Mostly everything stays the same, there are only some points that may influence the playstyle of other players (e.g. hitting finishers twice).
OzzyOzrock
has anyone gotten mad at the SV scaling thing? it looks like garbage tbh if there's any way to preserve the beautifully authentic stacking of notes with 1.4 without changing osu into a square i'd love it
Bramble

OzzyOzrock wrote:

has anyone gotten mad at the SV scaling thing? it looks like garbage tbh if there's any way to preserve the beautifully authentic stacking of notes with 1.4 without changing osu into a square i'd love it
I agree, it took a while for me to finally try it without HDHR BecauseItLooksSoGodDamnBEAUTIFUL and I really don't like the new SV scaling
Conor

Delthas wrote:

snip
why is one of the options for that poll "I don't like it; the current PP system is fine as it is."?

scorev2 is NOT a new pp system. it's a scoring system.

i get seriously confused when people like you say they'll quit or whatever when the actual way you play taiko isn't changing at all. i've been on cutting edge playing with this new system for a week straight and it's pretty much the exact same. the only thing that has truly changed is finishers and my stance on those has been made clear in my previous posts.

if a system that changes the way maps are scored (basically fixed to 1,000,000 with bonus points) forces you to quit then i don't know what to say.
Spagett
suggestion --

give us the new mascot

/s
Bramble
After long consideration, I think the only real issue I have with score V2 is the fact that difficulty spikes can result in failing due to HP. I like having combo breakers, not map breakers :/ It just seems asinine to force us to essentially force maps to be one constant difficulty rather than being able to make it intense in a certain part, you know?
Ak1o

BrambleClaw wrote:

After long consideration, I think the only real issue I have with score V2 is the fact that difficulty spikes can result in failing due to HP. I like having combo breakers, not map breakers :/ It just seems asinine to force us to essentially force maps to be one constant difficulty rather than being able to make it intense in a certain part, you know?
Personally, I think this might be even a good idea and not even as bad as you think of it.

I remember when I started playing Standard mode that I couldn't get past some maps because of patterns that at that point were too difficult for me - so I practiced them. Why couldn't it be the same for Taiko? If not so experienced players get a difficulty spike that they can't master but still want to finish the song, maybe they will try to learn how to play this part without many misses or misses at all.
I know that Standard is not Taiko, but I'd just like to point out a possible similarity. In the end of the day, you could still fail the map with scoreV1 and want to try it again to finally pass it. (so it's basically the same imo)

The other thing is, if there is a really, really intense part (like in some 8* - 10* maps), where one mistake could fuck you over instantly, even though you know how you should play it (because Taiko game mechanics are not perfect), it may be annoying after you retried this song like 100 times just to get a lucky shot and hit all notes properly. This is the only issue I can think of right now, but there could still be ways to prevent this. I mean mappers don't have to put HP6 or HP7 in every high-star map, when they know there will be a part you could die fail very easily in, so players can enjoy the game more instead of "ragequitting" after 100 retrys without success.
Ham5andw1ch
Probably been suggested before, but I need my bubble. We have spinner already, we just need the little bubble. ALSO for the way the skins are handled, would there be a way to get the Pippidon Kai to have a left hit, right hit, and idle animation? I notice when comparing Osu!taiko to arcade taiko, Pippidon cannot hit to the beat without having a 2 frame animation. By having separate sections, you could allow him to do a left hit, right hit, and idle frame in between hits. This would allow old animations to work while making Pippidon Kai more aesthetically pleasing for people used to Taiko No Tatsujin's smooth animations.

Leaving this here, but oops, this was score V2 discussion. I read the osu!weekly wrong and thought I could just suggest anything.
ikin5050
the finishers idea is so bad, they're meant for bonus points if you can hit them, punishing people for not hitting them is stupid

drum rolls i dont get, if you hit over 30% of the ticks you get a miss?

spinners shouldn't give you a miss if you dont hit enough, they're bonus points.

this can in my opinion be used for competitive taiko, but that is not what most of the plays people make are. most people play for their own best score and not competitively
Bramble

ikin5050 wrote:

the finishers idea is so bad, they're meant for bonus points if you can hit them, punishing people for not hitting them is stupid
I mean yeah I agree, but I think people can probably get used to it. I play competitively even in general play, so personally I always try to hit finishers, but I do agree that you shouldn't get a combo break just because you hit it with one button. Seems kind of asinine to me, why break your combo when you did hit the note?
mangomizer
I can't possibly be the only one here to point this out, but why does the relative scroll speed of WS resolutions increase with ScoreV2?

In 4:3 resolutions, the scroll speed is independent of whether ScoreV2 is on/off. However, with WS resolutions, scroll speed increases significantly, having fewer notes on the screen, resulting in an increase in difficulty of reading (basically playing a weaker version of HR). Why should this be the case? Why should ScoreV2 make things more difficult?

Proof/Images (map is Shuffle Heaven, by Nwolf):
4:3 resolution ScoreV1 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7255936
4:3 resolution ScoreV2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7255942

WS resolution ScoreV1 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256018
WS resolution ScoreV2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256034

If you are looking to balance the game by making both resolutions display equal number of notes, surely it makes more sense to "buff" 4:3 resolution instead of "nerfing" WS resolutions? This brings all WS players down a level, as well as giving an unfair advantage to HR players in the upcoming TWC 2017, as some non-HR players will have to adapt to reading higher than normal scroll speeds (with different spacing).

However, I suppose one could conversely argue that if you chose to increase the density of notes in 4:3 resolution, it would have a similar effect in increasing reading difficulty for 4:3 players (thereby giving WS players the advantage, as they no longer need to adapt).

Still, I am wondering about what solutions there are to this? Perhaps changing the actual SIZE of the notes so then you could fit more in a 4:3 resolution? Would making the size of the note independent of the resolution height be a solution? That way the 4:3 resolution is conserved, while the number of notes in both resolution types are still identical.

On a side note, ScoreV2 +EZ mod still has a higher scroll speed than ScoreV1, which I find quite hilarious to be honest.

WS Resolution ScoreV2 + EZ - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256008
WS Resolution ScoreV1 nomod - https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7256018
Bramble

magnomizer wrote:

many things
To be honest, personally I don't even see why we have to mess with scroll speed in the first place. Surely this is a problem if suddenly score V2 + EZ is faster than score V1 nomod :/
Zac Efron
Disregarding my embarrassing first post, Scorev2 is fantastic at a competitive and tournament standpoint. People need to stop complaining about their regular play when it changes little to nothing about how you really play. The chances of there being maps where you cannot hit finishers/sliders/spinners in the pool are none. We will literally be playing the same. Nonetheless I still have a few criticisms on the matter.



This should not be changed, the preference between 4:3 and 16:9 is entirely opinion based and neither gives any visual advantage. The ability to see more notes is purely the nature of widescreen alone and it shouldn't be touched. The ability to see more notes can't necessarily be said to be an advantage because it can be a disadvantage for the same reason. Too many notes can overload your mind and confuse some people, while with 4:3 too little notes can bother people and that would cause a bit of annoyance. This also plays into the fact that people have played on 16:9 since they started and the new slider velocities would require people to relearn the way you play on 16:9 resolutions. Less importantly; Ultra wide 21:9 players are affected seriously by this as for it is basically impossible to play, even without HR.
Some of the only few reasons I disagree to this is due to the fact that some people have keyboards that cannot detect 2 keys at a time. This can also be affected by play style in regards to finishers at the end of 1/4 patterns, not a lot of people can consistently hit that stuff and it's not simply a lack of skill but the inability due to a play style.
This very clever in a tournament standpoint, but it's not perfect. With the way that Taiko works in osu specifically, Note-locking can cause an instant fail for possibly a whole team! I would be one to ask to remove note lock, but I simply don't know how.. Taikojiro has no Note-locking because if you were to hit the wrong note when another comes up, it ignores the input and lets the note miss. The problem with this system is that people could simply spam both Kat and Don to a 1/4 scale and hit anything. My solution would to make it immediately register as a miss if you hit both notes, but if you simply hit the wrong note then ignore the input. Much easier said than done though. Maybe you could figure something out with that.

Overall, besides a few issues I've seen with the score not scaling properly with nomod SS ranks(Score of 1000333 for example), this new score system looks much better than it used to upon first impression and I am proud to see community involvement in the Taiko community finally in a long time. (Now all we need are official beatmapping contests such as Aspire to be run for Taiko) *runs*

Good luck on development!

Edit: I meant to mention that this system looks good for a tournament setting only. Any consideration to implement this into the base gameplay of the game I will have to strongly disagree with. If anything I feel like if that was to be considered, then there should be a community vote held something such as that.
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