Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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XK2238

Loctav wrote:

I tend to agree that doing *both* is maybe overkill. But I want to math out multiple scenarios first and then make some sort of choice here.
one attempt of an example scenario would be this map that was in last year's LMS; it has a pretty lengthy 1/2-snap D K D K D K D K ... section at 260 BPM which is VERY difficult to double-hit all the way through without risking misses. In the instance where both sides pull FC's and the winning side doesn't double-hit any of them, the losing side only needs to double-hit some (if not all) finishers of ONE color to seal the game, even if they're behind by around 4x100, 12x100, or 25x100 or so. Basically, it's about double-hitting more than the opponent(s) without missing, with that section being in kiai time to further emphasize it. based on a true story

In v2, with the 4x alone (without the combo break), you can probably miss a few times mid-song and still get above your FC-ing opponent -- provided you double-hit enough finishers more than your opponent -- which makes it a much more severe penalty compared to v1, considering how combo is lighter compared to v1. But then again, where would the fun be when not double-hitting finishers ruins your combo-portion score just because there's this single-/double-hit registration issue and other related stuffs still lying around?
k3v227
Another point to consider about finishers causing a combo break:

Here are two examples (there are certainly more instances of this concept in other maps):

2:04
0:14


This greatly impacts high-BPM play because sometimes it is very difficult for players to hit finishers with two fingers. Not every taiko player has the same skill, ability, and playstyle so it's unreasonable to arbitrarily define "high-BPM play" because it's relative for every player. For some taiko players this is 180BPM, and for applerss this is 380bpm (LOL). So if a lower-skilled taiko player is struggling to hit finishers at 180BPM it's wrong to just tell them to "get good" and "play the game properly" because they can't in that moment. Why should they be penalized for something that they can't fix? You can extend this to a higher-skilled player struggling to hit finishers at 300BPM. Telling them to "get good" and "play the game properly" absolutely wouldn't make sense here because where do you draw the line? At what BPM is it acceptable to not play finishers with two fingers because it's too difficult? You can always tell any player to just "get good" because they can improve over time, but that line of thought has no place in determining game mechanics; that people need to just "get good".


It's one thing to want to change finishers because players are skinning them out or because they are choosing not to play them with two fingers. But it is wrong to have your combo break because you unable to play the finisher with two fingers. I think having x4 score for two fingers and x1 score for one finger is adequate incentive for players to play finishers with two fingers within their own ability.
Bramble

conor wrote:

please use this thread for what it was intended for instead of ignoring the massive red text in the first post

this mode will forever stay the same because of reasons like you lot

nobody was asking about your participation either but thanks for adding that comment in anyway
Can you stop being a shit. What are you gonna do, kill me because I forgot about red text I read 4 days ago?

Conor wrote:

animexamera wrote:
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?

how about you fuck off already and come back with something beneficial towards this new system?

the current system we have is bad and anybody who thinks otherwise is absolutely delusional

it might be a foreign concept to you but when enough people make their voice heard about certain things they get changed

basically quit being a shit and get the changes you want instead (which funnily enough are the ones almost everybody else wants and they're currently getting)
It's fine to correct us, but don't act like you're 3 while you do it. If you're gonna tell the internet you're 20 years old, then act like a fucking 20 year old.
karterfreak

k3v227 wrote:

Another point to consider about finishers causing a combo break:

Here are two examples (there are certainly more instances of this concept in other maps):

2:04
0:14
Both of these examples are possible with any playstyle. There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.

k3v227 wrote:

Not every taiko player has the same skill, ability, and playstyle so it's unreasonable to arbitrarily define "high-BPM play" because it's relative for every player. For some taiko players this is 180BPM, and for applerss this is 380bpm (LOL). So if a lower-skilled taiko player is struggling to hit finishers at 180BPM it's wrong to just tell them to "get good" and "play the game properly" because they can't in that moment. Why should they be penalized for something that they can't fix?
This is almost on equivalent of saying 300+bpm maps should be banned because lower skill level players can't play that fast, or that LN's shouldn't break combo in mania because some players can't hold notes while pressing others. To add to that, they most certainly CAN fix it by improving their skill at that mechanic (aka: 'getting good').

k3v227 wrote:

You can extend this to a higher-skilled player struggling to hit finishers at 300BPM. Telling them to "get good" and "play the game properly" absolutely wouldn't make sense here because where do you draw the line? At what BPM is it acceptable to not play finishers with two fingers because it's too difficult? You can always tell any player to just "get good" because they can improve over time, but that line of thought has no place in determining game mechanics; that people need to just "get good".
I'm still waiting to see a map that has impossible to hit finishers that isn't a convert. So far every map I've been linked is possible with proper reading and finger coordination. 300bpm+ is reaching an extremely fast speed for most players at high level (barring players like yu / applerss / a few others), so of course hitting finishers at that speed is hard, playing anything at that speed is hard irrelevant of finishers, especially considering the rules around them completely preventing players from having to (excuse mania terminology) do jacks at all unless there are multiple finishers in quick succession.

Now I want to say I do agree single hits shouldn't break combo so long as the 4x multiplier stays (to prevent breaking old plays if the new system does get put into place and for gimmick maps to still be possible to create), but can we please not use reasoning pertaining to some players not having the skill to do it as an argument?
Backfire
Thank you for editing your comment.
karterfreak
Barring one comment I made (will edit it out as it is unnecessary, was just stunned by the thought process), I have provided counterpoints, which isn't being aggressive. Also your 'truth' isn't everyone else's 'truth' about the situation. There are players who do think combo should break if you don't hit finishers and they're within their right to consider that fair and reasonable.

Anyways pertaining to the topic. Extremely eager to see fixes pushed for v2! I'll hold off on contributing anything more here until we see further changes going through / something new is discovered to be wrong as my thoughts so far are pretty apparent throughout the thread.
Bramble

Tasha wrote:

There's also a recent video in the video thread of someone doing Loctav's looming map on v2 which is significantly harder.
Just speaking of significantly harder maps, Harpuia
verto
Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Delthas
Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
Ak1o

Delthas wrote:

Are these changes going to replace the current scoring system eventually? I find every single change you've added completely awful and in the wrongest possible direction for this game, but as long as this only applies for TWC I don't care. Just tell me you're going to keep the old system for normal plays (ranked and unranked) or at least for unranked plays, or that you're going to keep a way to play Taiko normally with a "score V1" mod or something. Please.
But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.

_verto_ wrote:

Has anybody suggested that big notes should give 100 or even introducing 50s just for this if finishers are not hit correctly instead of combobreaking?

If not, I just did.

Scorev2 should be balanced with both tournaments and pp in mind.
Something I wanted to suggest as well, even though I won't go as far as introducing 50s for this. The problem here is that even if you hit the note correctly, you would still get a 100 for it, which makes no sense. Perfect hits on finishers should always give 300, no matter if hit once or twice.

So far I am mostly for the 4x multiplier if hit twice and no combobreak if hit once. Another thought I had is to register 2 hits for combo as well if a finisher is hit twice (iirc it's even a thing rn). Idk how viable this idea is though.
Delthas

Ak1o wrote:

Some people said it already, instead of instantly shitting on new ideas w/o giving any arguments or reasons, have some free thoughts about it for a change and read some posts people wrote before. There are quite some interesting suggestions that are worth a thought imo.
haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko

Ak1o wrote:

But why do you find it awful? Most people here now actually want to help to get ScoreV2 a reason to exist, giving ideas and suggestions for improvement of it. Also, I am pretty certain that this will eventually be our new scoring system, and I also look forward to it. If there are changes you will never be able to please every single soul on this planet, that's just how life is.
i don't believe that i have any chance to make them cancel this new system even with the best arguments, and i don't think we can fix or modify the score v2 system enough so as to turn it back to the right direction for the game. i've lost any kind of hope regarding the possibility to cancel or fix this and i'm just wondering whether they'll give us at least a "score v1 mod" in order to be able to enjoy the game.
i don't really care that much since i'm going to make a copy of the game as it currently is and block the update servers in my hosts file so that the game never updates again. it's quite sad to have to do this but whatever. i'd make a fork of the game if it were open source but it's still almost entirely closed source so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
Edgar_Figaro
For the finisher idea I think there are a lot of different suggestions each with their merit. So maybe community should vote which they like best?

Option 1: increase score to 4x no combo break
Option 2: keep score 2x but have a 100 for a single button press (so still a 4 difference)
Option 3: make score 4x but have a 100 for single button press (8x total difference)
Option 4: make score 4x and a combo break but no miss for single button press
Option 5: Original concep 4x and a miss for one button press

Let me know if there was any other ideas thrown out that I miss. Also so slight variants don't split votes I say we vote twice. First time to narrow it down to two or three options and 2nd time to then pick from there
Ak1o

Delthas wrote:

edit: just take a look at this poll or at what kind of maps we taiko players actually LOVE playing. the new scoring system would break more than half of these maps. it's crzay. i don't even
I think there was also a suggestion to disable ScoreV2 for these kind of maps. Furthermore,

1. your poll looks rather outdated as the changes presented right here are for taiko only and only a couple of days old (correct me if I'm wrong) and
2. pp is not opened for debate yet (as it is mentioned in the poll).

Delthas wrote:

haha. actually just ask any mapper or high level mapper for their opinion on this. everyone's just begging the staff to stop "shitting on" taiko
I wish people would actually try to have an own opinion instead of always referring to "(high level) mappers", even if they may be more experienced.

Also I highly doubt that any kind of changes will break o!t as it is, believe me or not. Mostly everything stays the same, there are only some points that may influence the playstyle of other players (e.g. hitting finishers twice).
OzzyOzrock
has anyone gotten mad at the SV scaling thing? it looks like garbage tbh if there's any way to preserve the beautifully authentic stacking of notes with 1.4 without changing osu into a square i'd love it
Bramble

OzzyOzrock wrote:

has anyone gotten mad at the SV scaling thing? it looks like garbage tbh if there's any way to preserve the beautifully authentic stacking of notes with 1.4 without changing osu into a square i'd love it
I agree, it took a while for me to finally try it without HDHR BecauseItLooksSoGodDamnBEAUTIFUL and I really don't like the new SV scaling
Conor

Delthas wrote:

snip
why is one of the options for that poll "I don't like it; the current PP system is fine as it is."?

scorev2 is NOT a new pp system. it's a scoring system.

i get seriously confused when people like you say they'll quit or whatever when the actual way you play taiko isn't changing at all. i've been on cutting edge playing with this new system for a week straight and it's pretty much the exact same. the only thing that has truly changed is finishers and my stance on those has been made clear in my previous posts.

if a system that changes the way maps are scored (basically fixed to 1,000,000 with bonus points) forces you to quit then i don't know what to say.
Spagett
suggestion --

give us the new mascot

/s
Bramble
After long consideration, I think the only real issue I have with score V2 is the fact that difficulty spikes can result in failing due to HP. I like having combo breakers, not map breakers :/ It just seems asinine to force us to essentially force maps to be one constant difficulty rather than being able to make it intense in a certain part, you know?
Ak1o

BrambleClaw wrote:

After long consideration, I think the only real issue I have with score V2 is the fact that difficulty spikes can result in failing due to HP. I like having combo breakers, not map breakers :/ It just seems asinine to force us to essentially force maps to be one constant difficulty rather than being able to make it intense in a certain part, you know?
Personally, I think this might be even a good idea and not even as bad as you think of it.

I remember when I started playing Standard mode that I couldn't get past some maps because of patterns that at that point were too difficult for me - so I practiced them. Why couldn't it be the same for Taiko? If not so experienced players get a difficulty spike that they can't master but still want to finish the song, maybe they will try to learn how to play this part without many misses or misses at all.
I know that Standard is not Taiko, but I'd just like to point out a possible similarity. In the end of the day, you could still fail the map with scoreV1 and want to try it again to finally pass it. (so it's basically the same imo)

The other thing is, if there is a really, really intense part (like in some 8* - 10* maps), where one mistake could fuck you over instantly, even though you know how you should play it (because Taiko game mechanics are not perfect), it may be annoying after you retried this song like 100 times just to get a lucky shot and hit all notes properly. This is the only issue I can think of right now, but there could still be ways to prevent this. I mean mappers don't have to put HP6 or HP7 in every high-star map, when they know there will be a part you could die fail very easily in, so players can enjoy the game more instead of "ragequitting" after 100 retrys without success.
Ham5andw1ch
Probably been suggested before, but I need my bubble. We have spinner already, we just need the little bubble. ALSO for the way the skins are handled, would there be a way to get the Pippidon Kai to have a left hit, right hit, and idle animation? I notice when comparing Osu!taiko to arcade taiko, Pippidon cannot hit to the beat without having a 2 frame animation. By having separate sections, you could allow him to do a left hit, right hit, and idle frame in between hits. This would allow old animations to work while making Pippidon Kai more aesthetically pleasing for people used to Taiko No Tatsujin's smooth animations.

Leaving this here, but oops, this was score V2 discussion. I read the osu!weekly wrong and thought I could just suggest anything.
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