Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Full Tablet

smoogipooo wrote:

Full Tablet wrote:

snip
So I've seen this suggested multiple times now, but this is impossible to achieve. You have one independent variable - the resolution (r), one uncontrolled (but constant) variable - the hitobject time (t), and two dependent variables - the speed of hitobjects (s) and the density of hitobjects per unit time (d).

You cannot control both s and d simultaneously - or at all. The simplest one is speed, which can be modeled as
s = r / t
Where you can see that a change in r results in a change in s, which can only be adjusted by a change in the uncontrolled variable t.

Density likewise can't be controlled, but it can be hand-wavily modeled by:
d = r / s
= r / (r / t)
= t
But t is uncontrolled.

Your "How it currently scales" box controls speed and density by keeping resolution constant.
Your "How it should scale" box is impossible as the change in density requires a change in time.

I've thought about it but the only conclusion I've come up with is to crop the area as ScoreV1 does.
What I meant was always keeping the proportions of the playfield constant, varying which percentage of the area of the screen is covered by it depending on the screen proportions. This way, density and speed (percentage of the screen covered per second) of the objects is always the same regardless of screen proportions.

Maybe these pictures illustrate what I mean more clearly:
karterfreak
I think a big help would be to make playfield area constant at least for width. Both of the below images are the same width, but the widescreen one is by default scrolling faster right now because the playfield between them is scaling differently.



vs

Shirai-
I think scorev2 should exist under the following circumstances
1. It should only be used on competitive games (since competitives would require mastery and perfection)
2. It should only stay as an option, since the score cap is different it should be implemented as an unranked mod to be played only on competitive or for fun, training, etc.

Contents

!Competitives

1. Talking about the "freemods" on tournaments
Mods should still always retain their rightful bonuses aside of 1m score cap

2. Fail bignote=miss/combo break, this one is allright to be implemented but picking a map for it has become harder as a challenge

3. Sliders and Spinners should stay as they have always been it should stay as bonus

4. I read words about removing the slider ticks. I dont think its a good idea since the bonus is abusable

!Should be applied onto casual plays

1. HDHR changes, since the one we know is really broken and as we have noticed that more players will come to "farm" this 2 mods especially HD players//if you know what I mean. I think it is a good implementation but I think that you will need to re calculate the "numbers" when both of this 2 mods are up

2. The consistency HR's SV on different resolutions

3. Widescreen HD does not revert back to 4:3

Now, wouldn't it be more balanced that way

P.S. not of all that I read it since there were too many posts
_yu68
It is inappropriate to make scrollspeed fast on widescreen.
It is disadvantage for 16:9 players because notes interval becomes difficult to read.(Well, this is inconsistent with my other post, so I withdraw it.)

Like told by other in here, it is best to change the 4:3 screen layout so that the same time notes as 16:9 is displayed.
Topic Starter
smoogipoo

_yu68 wrote:

It is inappropriate to make scrollspeed fast on widescreen.
It is disadvantage for 16:9 players because notes interval becomes difficult to read.(Well, this is inconsistent with my other post, so I withdraw it.)

Like told by other in here, it is best to change the 4:3 screen layout so that the same time notes as 16:9 is displayed.
This is what I'm working towards right now, will hopefully be able to push an update in the next few days but it's quite difficult :P
TimmyAkmed

_yu68 wrote:

It is disadvantage for 16:9 players because notes interval becomes difficult to read.

Like told by other in here, it is best to change the 4:3 screen layout so that the same time notes as 16:9 is displayed.
I kinda disagree here for the exact same reason, as a 4:3 player i'm just unable to read anything on widescreen resolution due to the note density on screen. While yu68 and probably all the widescreen users/players coming from TnT can probably easily read 16:9 / 16:10. There are also alot who plays only on 4:3.

The only maps where I feel like widescreen is required to be readable are Converts or Taiko diff (with 1.6 Sv while using DT)

In the end 4:3 or widescreen is a matter of preferences and i don't understand why widescreen should be considered as the "good" resolution.

The actual Scorev2 make the note density on screen lower on widescreen and higher on 4:3. I find it pretty good as it is now but the only problem is that there are now maps that became unreadable at all even if "Mostly converts" and Unranked very high SV maps.
Nofool
^ same here, as a mostly 4:3 resolution user i would then be disadvantaged.

Why would you unify all résolutions in the first place? The current system seems better. Also a good amount of players (including me) use to swap resolutions depending on the SV of the map.
Ak1o

Tasha wrote:

So something that should be pointed out...

Scrolling differences per mod
Nomod = ScoreV2 is faster
DT = ScoreV2 is faster
HR = ScoreV1 is slightly faster?
I just screened the density of some notes on a map with HR, first time with ScoreV2 and second time without.

To me it seems that HR on ScoreV1 is slightly slower than on ScoreV2. Idk if it is the maps fault or not, so I will test this on some other maps as well.
It's not much, but there is a difference.

EDIT: I tested this on maps with various BPM (140, 180, 215, 240), the change stays as little as on these screenshots.

Open both images in new tabs for the best experience.

karterfreak
@Ak1o: checked this again on a different map as the original screenshots I used to come to that conclusion showed otherwise... This time Scorev2 was faster (very miniscule difference anyways) so idk anymore, this is probably something relating to SV but it's incredibly minor

Nofool wrote:

Why would you unify all resolutions in the first place? The current system seems better. Also a good amount of players (including me) use to swap resolutions depending on the SV of the map.
I think the problem is more that equal width resolutions don't have an equal scroll for their playing field, not so much that you can use lower resolutions to have lower SV. Either way gonna wait and see what smoogipooo introduces here.
Bramble

Ak1o wrote:

I just screened the density of some notes on a map with HR, first time with ScoreV2 and second time without.

To me it seems that HR on ScoreV1 is slightly slower than on ScoreV2. Idk if it is the maps fault or not, so I will test this on some other maps as well.
It's not much, but there is a difference.
Well that's definitely an issue then :/ Is this getting any attention yet? It does seem like it's intended for ScoreV2 to have a slower HR speed than V1, so...Unless I'm mistaken of course, in which case is fine too, I don't mind. But holy shit, I haven't seen it yet but HDHR fix? Apply to V1 please? ;w;
_yu68
Certainly, it can not be said that widescreen is necessarily advantageous.
So should not change from ScoreV1.
Mills
But will all our former scores be converted into v2? And a loss of pp? :/
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
This has nothing to do with current scores, star rating, or pp yet.
Mills

smoogipooo wrote:

This has nothing to do with current scores, star rating, or pp yet.
Oh right, sorry.
animexamera

smoogipooo wrote:

This has nothing to do with current scores, star rating, or pp yet.
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?
Bramble
I mean yeah, I'm curious about how it's gonna affect scores and pp too. I know it's not going to affect any of that yet, but keyword *yet*. Are there any plans about that? Other than forcing us to use it in TWC2017? (Which I was gonna participate in but now I'm not, not because of this though)
Jaye

animexamera wrote:

smoogipooo wrote:

This has nothing to do with current scores, star rating, or pp yet.
what about future scores, i mean you arent doing this for fun to troll all of us are you?
For now I think we should all keep this on topic of ScoreV2 being separate from regular gameplay and just keep it focused around TWC. It's nice to see that through discussion this is turning into a good way of balancing out HD and HR, combo and accuracy, and just overall scoring for a tournament setting.
My only criticism is of course the Finishers; I have two suggestions, the latter of which I strongly agree with.
  1. Make hitting Finishers appropriately 2x score and penalise with a miss otherwise.
  2. Keep hitting Finishers appropriately at 4x score but penalise with 1x score if hit otherwise.

I think having a mandatory 4x score or miss is a VERY large punishment for a tournament setting, especially for many maps (such as Loctav's) that overkill Finishers (ironically, with the way Finishers are now, his maps are virtually unplayable xD). However, giving the player a miss for technically hitting a note is a no-go, it's unfair and uncalled for. I think having a 4x score on Finishers, as opposed to the standard 2x, will place a larger emphasis on the appropriate hitting of Finishers like Loctav is trying to get at with this change.
Missing on Spinners and Sliders really shouldn't be any sort of issue at all since they're almost always relatively easy to hit.

Even though we've been told not to discuss PP yet; I'd like to point at that ScoreV2 for the other modes remains simply as a secondary scoring mechanic for tournaments, and is not aimed to replace the current scoring system. I can see why many people would worry about this, for example myself, as mandatory double-hit finishers and 30% sliders would ruin a lot of plays I already have. For now I'd like to say that the best course of action in terms of PP would be to fix up HDHR (so it can be used as intended [also it's apparently fixed on CE but I don't see it]) and to possibly apply the HD and HR formats in ScoreV2 over to ScoreV1 (seems fair, and nothing is broken).
Don't get me started on converts, they're "maps" that essentially cheat the ranking criteria, and if anything, should be given a x0.00pp multiplier like Loved/Qualified/TAG4 maps.
Conor
completely remove any idea you have of combo breaking from finishers and instead penalize a 1 key hit with a lower score multiplier

it's the only real gameplay issue left standing in this new system and it shouldn't be there at all

keep the 4x multiplier for a 2 key hit and apply a 2x multiplier to a 1 key hit (1x multiplier if you want more impact or perhaps no score at all if that's possible)

when you're playing a tournament where the only winning condition is highest score there's absolutely no reason at all to penalize people in the way you intend to do it

give finishers a high enough multiplier for being hit properly and i can guarantee people will go for them more (because winning is good)

besides as tournaments only get harder in terms of map pools it'll get to a point where certain maps will straight up look retarded to watch from a viewing perspective when there's a combo break at every note (hint: playing wouldn't be so fun either)
Remyria
Can not hitting finishers with both keys just not break combo at all? >.<
newme96
I don't know is it just me but I feel like the HP is really meaningless.
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