Arrival wrote:

I mean do you guys ACTUALLY looked at what this "MASSIVE" "HUGE" "DRASTIC" modification changes on gameplay ? Well, nearly nothing. Nearly everyone hits sliders / spinners / finishers now, so giving them importance will be only a better thing. If you like taiko now, you'll like it on Score v2. If you hate it now, then you'll hate it on score v2 too.

Do you have statistics on that?
That's like saying none plays converts and here is n1doking...

The concerns voiced regarding drumroll- and spinnerusage in mapping and how they would play out in the new context can't just be breezed off without thinking.
I for example often like to hit drumrolls with some custom rhythm I deem fitting when I have the impression that spamming all the ticks through doesn't fit the song in that place. And based on how drumrolls used to work maybe this is even what the mapper intended?
The same goes for the selected HP value as well so you should at least take a careful look instead of saying "nah, everything's fine because literally nothing changes". That's definitely wrong because things do change even if they actually end up being fine.

As far as I understood it, the intention of Taiko score v2 is to create a scoring system that is easier to understand for the clueless viewer and as such we get the analogies with 1m score and health to the other modes.
I'm not sure if the current setup is a success because as already mentioned, the mechanic of gaining score is less transparent with the arbitrary cap and the unknown scaling of combo- and accuracyscore which is also impossible to tell apart from each other. I think the possibility of losing score does not really make a scoring system easier to understand either.
I think I can just repeat my already voiced opinion here: The Taiko v1 scoring system is fairly straightforward, easy to understand and does a good job overall. I don't see a value in changing it to some weird values with new calculations just to have the same number as in the other modes when you lose some significant bits on the way that the other scoring systems (specifically std+ctb v1) never offered.

The premise of making all elements contribute to the score meaningfully is good from a viewing perspective though. I don't think the intended mechanics for the elements are suited to make their way into regular Taiko as they are now but for a tournament - why not? There have already been quite some comments on the finisher-mechanic though but it looks like you have an eye on it already. Same for notelock.
Health is just...meh. Taiko is not balanced around it like that. I see how the healthsystem of the other modes is easier to understand for a novice but I really don't think that this small benefit outweighs the balancing of the health and potential player or team deaths. Especially considering that Loctav wants to have the pool being significantly harder than last years...while it may be interesting from a competitive perspective as mentioned by Tasha such stuff is absolutely awful to watch when it ends up happening and most importantly - the team/player that dies on a spike with the new system would have lost the map in 99% of cases anyway! The major difference is that it feels worse and less "gg".

Tasha wrote:

We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it

who?

i mean if you'r gonna force scoreV2 over pple's opinions, why not force that too?? (which is actually something we want LOL)


edit : cheaters give their opinions, only on osu ↓

will this be exclusive to tournaments or do you actually have plans to push this new system for the entire mode?

asking before i share my opinions on what the changes should be because i see a lot of people talking about converted maps here when i don't think they're understanding that this will only be for tournaments.

It's more of a problem with the taiko pp system than anything else. Regardless, it's best not to turn this into a convert argument thread since I don't think score v2 has anything to do with them.

Sorry

I'm still not liking the idea of finishers basically turning into osu!mania. They've always been optional in osu! and every other taiko game, changing it now seems to be forcing people to play a specific way to play a map, not forcing people to play a specific way to get extra points. (this is a pretty unique thing taiko has over most other rhythm games)

Also honestly the maps forced finishers actually affect are generally maps with a lot of finishers, which you're pretty much bound to lose at in twc if you don't hit them vs someone who hits them while both fc. If you don't hit the finishers on maps like Schrodinger's Cat, Burn and Burn It Down you've already lost to be honest, also worth mentioning that all the maps mentioned are very playable with DT which I'd say makes it really challenging if you intend to hit finishers.

All I know is Lno would have a totally legit #1 on marisa

Sorry

Hello and let's take a look

A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.

This might be a hard choice to let you know if the current ScoreV1 didn't give any miss for unsuccessful completion but if this score is being used on gimmick maps, it might be a worse idea at all.

For the second statement, it's really a good idea. This will pretend any huge score difference between x100 combos and x0-x99 combo(s) when being calculated.

For the third statement, how about if we did an unsuccesfull completion of a spinner? Will the HP drain decrease like before (ScoreV1)?

@Loctav : Please make sure that the mappools for TWC2017 won't be awkward. Unranked maps mostly awful to get a good score and had many unranked stuffs (but there are some unranked maps with a good reason to be on mappools).

i will check the other comments on this discussion first :3 and then continue this one

I've pushed out a new build with a few changes to address most concerns in this thread. Check out the OP (I will update this with every new update going forward) and let me know what you think of the new changes.

I will say that I like it a lot better now than before, from what I understand combo has an effect on score still but not as much as before? I'm still not entirely happy about finishers counting as a combo break in that case.

Oh well, I'm glad some middle ground has been made already.

My English is not good, sorry.
I basically agree if this applies only in tournament.
But I disagree to give big notes possibility of misscount.
The reason for this is that depending on keyboard and pc spec, it may not be judged that pressed with both hands.

@smoogipooo, it's better than before now. A lot of changed from original but about the big notes, i'm still disagree a little bit. check yu68's i would agree with his reason

did you fix HDHR for tournament settings only? regular play needs this badly because for way too long it's been DT or nothing. i would love to see DT have something that could match it for once. the balance of scores/pp on standard with HDHR/DT is something i think taiko has needed for years. i didn't think i would live to see the day where HDHR was actually usable.

normal notes are fine.

remove anything combo break/missing related from finishers and they'll be fine. the 1 key/2 key score difference is all you need for these. there's way too many playstyle and equipment factors to make combo break/missing ever work for these. it's kinda daft to me. if it was in my hands i would make 1 key worth 2x a normal note and 2 keys worth 4x a normal note but have them both still count as a 300.

the drumrolls are amazing. i beg you to apply this change to regular play. drumroll ticks changing to 1/8 on bpm<=125 has been a pain for everyone since the dawn of time (mainly score farmers). 250bpm drumrolls on 125bpm songs is something that shouldn't happen. the rest of the changes are fine. i heavily agree on them being added to the 1,000,000 score and not counting towards combo. notelocking being removed is another godsend especially when it comes to high bpm since a lot of people including myself begin to hit them with 4 keys at that point. the missing aspect of these shouldn't be a problem for anybody now.

spinners are fine.

health is something i need to play around with a little more but as it stands there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference. it seems pretty solid if you ask me and the whole idea of "building HP" has confused viewers and new players forever.

Given that the punishment for not hitting a finisher has now gone up from 2x to 4x, it seems rather excessive to add a minimum ~40k point deficit on top of that in the form of a combobreak. (insert something about keyboard not registering finisher hits here).

Before I will make the decision whether to change the slider tick bonus to a different value or whether to make finishers slider break or not (or have a x4 bonus, having both really seems excessively punishing on misheap), i want to do some maths with how scorev2 currently computes these notes and how scorev1 would. Please give me some time for that.

I am glad you like the changes to HDHR and fixing resolution abuse. I didn't get quite the chance yet to test this out and figure if new HR itself it broken (? I heard rumors), but yet again I urge everyone to test things directly (maybe we can get HDHR into ranked play already, I'd love so)

Everything else from this point on feels like balancing, as in how much gives what, how much does every note drain, is it feasible to keep this HP system with current map settings, etc.
for that I will need to do some excessive maths sessions and get back to you with my results, so I am asking for patience here and thank you for all the feedback so far!

Finisher hits not being registered seemed to be a long term display bug that actually resulted in registering the finisher, but not showing you that it did. This display bug seem to be fixed, too, as I can suddenly reliably hit all finishers, which was never the case before.

MY HD+HR MY LIFE IS COMPLETE AYAYAYAYAYAYAYA

the finisher bug is still not fixed, you can hit finishers correctly and get bonus points but depending on (I think) PC and keyboard it won't show it as a finisher hit.

There are also cases where it might show finisher hit sometimes and normal hit other times if you hit correctly and get double points, I get it to show that I hit a finisher extremely rarely, but I generally get double points all the time if I hit correctly.

For me the finisher display bug still persists. While being able to get the hit and score of the two button Finisher it displays and shows up in the stats at the end of the song as Finisher only if I hit both notes on the same frame (which at 2000 fps isn't happening often).
Finisher bug on end screen

Kiai time is still being ignored - Why is that?

Drumrolls with the removed notelock are actually fun to play and with that removed making them hitobjects is actually balanced so no issues here.

I still need more time to see if HP is balanced

The miss on Finishers needs to go though. 4x score should be enough reason to play them properly.

finishers for some reason can be 300'd in 2 different ways. they're kinda like 300/MAX notes on mania but on taiko you get awarded with the same points for both outcomes. this is how it works in scorev1 and i'm guessing that's how it works in scorev2 because i can't think of anything that would change it.

i believe it has something to do with the ms difference between your 2 key presses. if you hit them close enough to each other you get a MAX hit instead.

Conor wrote:

finishers for some reason can be 300'd in 2 different ways. they're kinda like 300/MAX notes on mania but on taiko you get awarded with the same points for both outcomes. this is how it works in scorev1 and i'm guessing that's how it works in scorev2 because i can't think of anything that would change it.

i believe it has something to do with the ms difference between your 2 key presses. if you hit them close enough to each other you get a MAX hit instead.

I actually investigated this a while back, within a hit window of about +-15ms you get the Finisher hit awarded without it showing as a real Finisher on screen and in stats. For me it only awards the real Finisher hit if I hit both notes on the same frame which is framerate dependant and therefore stupid. When I limited my framerate to 120 fps I could consistently hit Finishers that showed up in stats as well.

Resolution scaling is having the sideeffect of altering the scroll speed on different resolutions, so I am currently trying to figure out a solution for that.

Kiai time/Go-Go time is currently not giving any benefits, but that might change. Let us figure out the bases first before we go into multipliers and other elements.

The display bug on fnishers, I dunno, it seem to be gone but now it is back, so I am a bit puzzled. But at least it is registering the input and doesn't break combo in case of it showing just the normal hit.

I am not sure about HP, I feel that right now it is not scaling properly, being way too easy as of currently.

HDHR turns out to be pretty easy once you play the fixed version, so I might consider buffing HR to be really worth to be on par with DT, because right now, HDHR is just cheap in comparison to DT. (as in, DT demands way more for the same score bonus, e.g. in terms of hit window)

Is there a rounding error on per-note score?
Map composition: 873 circles (a few big notes, but they're not the question), 0 slider, 0 spinner.



Edit: I think I know what caused the +159 points:


Side note, I don't know if this is just me, but the scrolling speed was faster. Is this the inception of ratio-based scrolling speed scale?

———

About big notes, have you considered that not every player has keyboards that register big notes (either perfectly or with the delay)? I mean, having misses due to having hardware that don't register big notes correctly should not be acceptable in tournament setting, as this passively tells "have a correct keyboard to play". I see no one willing to do that in the middle of a tournament, and even less if they're too young.

———

whoa you're right about the low frame rate

i always thought the display was based off ms difference because auto plays with a hit error of +/- 0.00 and gets perfect hits on them all

i can agree with the HP being too easy right now

the fixed HDHR is simply HD with higher OD (but DT should have a higher score multiplier than HDHR imo)

Loctav wrote:

HDHR turns out to be pretty easy once you play the fixed version, so I might consider buffing HR to be really worth to be on par with DT, because right now, HDHR is just cheap in comparison to DT. (as in, DT demands way more for the same score bonus, e.g. in terms of hit window)

Perhaps HDHR could have x1.1 instead of x1.12?

We discovered a bug (visual) where non frame perfect finisher hits will give +2 combo instead of +1. Frame perfect finishers will give +1 as expected. Score isn't affected as far as I can tell.

Might be related to visual bug about finisher score / hit graphic not being displayed correctly if not hit frame perfect (including result screen display having the same issue)

I already found out about that and requested a fix for it

scroll speed currently alters with used resolution, so we need to rethink this and make resolution stop having any impact on scroll speed or visible notes altogether.

There is a SV change (well, less SV to be precise) happening at the end of the sliders (drum rolls). I think it's not intentional and needs to be fixed.

Doesn't it kinda make sense for higher resolutions to have a faster scroll if you're aiming for them to have identical amount of notes on the screen? 16:9 is obviously wider than 4:3 so 16:9 notes should scroll faster shouldn't they? What are you guys aiming to do here?

Also sliders visibly slow down at the end now.

edit: ninja'd by frukoyurdakul

edit x 2: SLIDERS SLOWING DOWN IS ALSO HAPPENING IN SCOREV1

Isn't scroll speed changing intended?

I think same scroll speed as 4:3 should be applied even at 16:9 resolution.

_yu68 wrote:

Is scroll speed changing not intended?

I think same scroll speed as 4:3 should be applied even at 16:9 resolution.

That would be unfair for 4:3 screen users as they would see less notes at the same time and it would be horribly unfair on higher SV
Same scroll speed on different screen aspect ratios could only be achieved if the length of the taiko bar was limited on wider resolutions.

I think the double hit finisher/not registering as real finisher bug happens as follows: Taiko registers a hit on a finisher immediately as the first button is pressed. If the second button is pressed on the same frame it registers as proper finisher. If the second button is pressed later but still within the acceptable time frame, it will add another hit, add the score of the second hit and internally count the finisher as hit by two buttons. But as the finisher was already registered as not being hit with two, but one button it wont revert that.
To fix this you would have to change how hit registration works on finishers, only registering the single/double button press after the 30ms timeframe for successfully hitting both buttons has passed.

Currently hitting the finisher buttons on different frames also seems to award more points:

Auto SS score with perfect finishers
My SS score with finisher hits on different frames

5urface wrote:

That would be unfair for 4:3 screen users as they would see less notes at the same time and it would be horribly unfair on higher SV
Same scroll speed on different screen aspect ratios could only be achieved if the length of the taiko bar was limited on wider resolutions.

Can't players change resolution by option?

The disadvantage by 4:3 monitor is like the disadvantage by pc specs.
Should not restrict 16:9 players due to such problems.

Osu!taiko models "Taiko no Tatsujin", 16:9 scroll is closest to it.
So osu!taiko should follow with it.

To maintain fairness, It is best to slow 4:3 scroll on scorev 2 with 16:9 scroll as reference.

osu!taiko is not Taiko no Tatsujin. It doesn't have to follow it and scorev2 is a step in the direction of REALLY not following TnT mechanics.

Anyway, I think it's better to slow 4:3 scroll speed

played for a bit, can confirm


1. result totals show correctly despite combo screwing up. I'm not seeing how the finishers are 4x worth though; for example, in the first screenshot, regular notes were worth 1200~1350, while finishers had only around 2000 or 2200 (the first note being a finisher had ~1300, wat). Also, the >1m thing.
2. kiai time still has its +20% absent.
3. HR is slower now! E.g. in 4:3 reso, the circles would still overlap a bit on the borders, compared to being exactly adjacent like it was before. Haven't looked at 16:9 reso, but some people say it's relatively even slower than in 4:3, although very slightly. Also, HD visibility area got scaled along with the reso width?

there's most likely more to be found along the way, but so far it's going pretty well. Isn't it nice to have the same on-screen time of notes across different widths though? I mean, widescreen has been quite overpowered in non-HD/HR ever since the widescreen update back in late 2012 or early 2013.

---------

alright, go on

yeah, but right now you can factually shift your scroll speed with resolution, which sort of makes HR and HD trivial. We are revising our changes here.

HDHR turns out to be pretty easy once you play the fixed version, so I might consider buffing HR to be really worth to be on par with DT, because right now, HDHR is just cheap in comparison to DT. (as in, DT demands way more for the same score bonus, e.g. in terms of hit window)

Other than the part where HDHR is cheap in comparison to DT, this statement just genuinely confuses me What do you mean by "buffing HR to be really worth to be on par with DT"?

EDIT:

Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 15% of the ticks, a 100 will be given if the player has hit between 15% and 30% of the ticks, and a miss will be given if the player has hit more than 30% of the ticks.

"and a miss will be given if the player has hit more than 30% of the ticks" Please tell me this is a typo -w-

So something that should be pointed out...

Scrolling differences per mod
Nomod = ScoreV2 is faster
DT = ScoreV2 is faster
HR = ScoreV1 is slightly faster?

All three of these should be unchanged from V1 if you based things off 16:9 and rescaled them to 4:3 (to make up for 4:3's smaller width). What we have now with ScoreV2 is Nomod and DT both being harder while HR got easier. Kinda throws the balance of the mods out of whack a little bit.

On the positive side of things... OHGODYESTHANKYOUFORHDHRPLSMAKEAVAILABLEINSCOREV1ASAPKTHX.

So you're saying that scroll speed for HR will be slower in V2?