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Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Bramble
What the fuck is that supposed to mean Nwolf, almost every pro player I know is complaining!!!! This isn't even ScoreV2, this is TAIKOV2!! Not everyone is complaining, so if like, three or four people aren't complaining, then it's okay to change it for the whole fucking community? How about fuck no, why not take a poll and see the true statistics about this or something like that.

The only people who aren't complaining are staff members, but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!
Alchyr
Personally I'm fine with spinners/sliders, since they seem to have some plans for adjusting sliders to play differently than they currently do.

However, finishers and hp drain feel like unnecessary changes.

The way taiko is mapped/played is balanced based on the current hp drain system. Yes, it wouldn't make any difference if you fc a map. But a lot of the time people play maps that are harder/have sections that would cause instant failure if the hp system was changed. Yes, a lot of these maps are unranked. But they still matter. There are obviously far more unranked maps than ranked maps, and I honestly probably play more unranked maps than ranked maps anyways. A lot of songs don't have ranked maps, and there really just aren't that many ranked maps I enjoy playing. It's true you can just play it with nofail since it's unranked anyways, but this would affect people playing unranked maps in multi for fun. Honestly, it's not THAT bad of a change, but it just feels kind of.. unnecesssary.

As for finishers, 4x score seems fine to me as a way to encourage actually hitting them with two fingers. However, I don't think what happens if you hit it with one key should be changed. Even if you just imagine actually playing a taiko, if you hit it with two sticks at the same time yes it will be louder, but one still makes a sound.

EDIT: Mentioning converts, I'm fine with them not being counted as ranked but please leave the convert system to play converted maps, because some songs just don't have a taiko map, whether ranked or unranked, and some converts are fun to play.

No comment on the score system changes because I don't think I know enough to say whether or not it's balanced.

As for its use in competition, which is the goal, I think only the finisher change is a problem because it limits which maps can be selected and also affects the playstyle of the competitors, severely hindering ddkk players.
karterfreak
Just curious at this point but how many of you have actually sat down and seriously tried these changes? If you're at all familiar with how ScoreV1 works in a tournament environment you'd know it has a fuck ton of issues (misses having WAY more impact than anything else, finishers giving practically nothing to the point that if a map had enough hard finishers that'd force combo break they'd legit just skin them out, HR having an advantage over HD on any map with spinners, winners being insanely predictable barring shitmisses towards end of a map). ScoreV2 fixes a LOT of the issues that'd come up otherwise and if you took the time to actually test it you'd know that.

The only complaint I'm agreeing with anyone on is combo being broken by single hit on finishers, as I do feel the x4 multipler is enough of a score bonus for a proper hit to make not hitting them much more impactful than before.

BrambleClaw wrote:

almost every pro player I know is complaining!!!! This isn't even ScoreV2, this is TAIKOV2!! Not everyone is complaining, so if like, three or four people aren't complaining, then it's okay to change it for the whole fucking community? How about fuck no, why not take a poll and see the true statistics about this or something like that.
And welcome to the reason legit nothing ever will get done with this community. You're all so opposed to anything new or different that you flip your shit the moment you hear the word "change".

BrambleClaw wrote:

The only people who aren't complaining are staff members, but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!
I'm representing my individual opinion, not staffs. Again the community gets upset about practically anything. We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it and that's something the community is majority in favor of (as far as I'm aware).

A quick list of positive things this brings:
- You always know when someone achieved a perfect score for any given mod combination (1m, 1m + 60k for 1.06 mods, 1m + 120k for 1.12 mods)
- Accuracy has a higher weight
- Misses have a lower weight (combo isn't the only thing that matters with scorev2 unlike scorev1)
- Mod differentials in score are gone (due to equal score, which btw isn't achievable without the way they're considering spinners and sliders in scorev2)
- Opportunity for players to actually fail the map
- Values finishers more to make ignoring them / using a small note skin more punishing (Cause seriously small note skins are the cheesiest crap next to people who use custom resolutions to do HDHR)

Neutral / Negative things:
- Health: This is both a positive and a negative, positive was described above, negative(?) thing is because of how people use HP value in taiko, some maps become easier to pass
- Spinners: Gimmick maps get broken. Solution: Remove health loss from missed spinner. How many players seriously don't complete possible finishers anyways? (+ you lose score and would make spinners feel more like a 'bonus')
- Finishers: Finishers breaking combo on single hit is like the only seriously negative thing, this is easy to fix by allowing x4 on double hit but not dropping combo on single hit.
Bramble
Okay yeah so maybe I was a bit heated at the time I was typing it, my bad. But I do still personally disagree with a lot of these changes as do a lot of other people. As 5urface said, I'm fine with a score V2, but why on earth are we changing gameplay too, that's not "score". And then what's going to happen to these thousands and millions of old scores? Are we seriously going to recalculate every last one of them? I doubt it, so what's gonna happen with those? It's not the fact that it's change necessarily, because the more I think about the score cap, the more I'm okay with it, that's not a big deal, but..it's so massive, it's almost like taiko itself is getting a complete rework. It's not going to be like the game mode I fell in love with :/ As far as what I said about staff members and stuff, as far as I can tell anyway, staff members in general are the ones who don't oppose this, but I've only known about this for like, a few hours, keep in mind. I dunno, I guess we'll see what happens, but in my personal opinion, this is a bit of a drastic change just for a score v2 that nobody really asked for. (If people really did ask for it though, feel free to correct me.)
Arrival

BrambleClaw wrote:

Okay yeah so maybe I was a bit heated at the time I was typing it, my bad. But I do still personally disagree with a lot of these changes as do a lot of other people. As 5urface said, I'm fine with a score V2, but why on earth are we changing gameplay too, that's not "score". And then what's going to happen to these thousands and millions of old scores? Are we seriously going to recalculate every last one of them? I doubt it, so what's gonna happen with those? It's not the fact that it's change necessarily, because the more I think about the score cap, the more I'm okay with it, that's not a big deal, but..it's so massive, it's almost like taiko itself is getting a complete rework. It's not going to be like the game mode I fell in love with :/ As far as what I said about staff members and stuff, as far as I can tell anyway, staff members in general are the ones who don't oppose this, but I've only known about this for like, a few hours, keep in mind. I dunno, I guess we'll see what happens, but in my personal opinion, this is a bit of a drastic change just for a score v2 that nobody really asked for. (If people really did ask for it though, feel free to correct me.)
So you're going to hate the mode "you fell in love with" because of a new scoring system ? Well that's what I call true love.

I mean do you guys ACTUALLY looked at what this "MASSIVE" "HUGE" "DRASTIC" modification changes on gameplay ? Well, nearly nothing. Nearly everyone hits sliders / spinners / finishers now, so giving them importance will be only a better thing. If you like taiko now, you'll like it on Score v2. If you hate it now, then you'll hate it on score v2 too.

After 2 days of Score V2 gameplay, i think the only things that should be debated are HP / Notelocking / Finishers. Because everything else is nearly the same as before, even better tbh. Well it's late here for me, so maybe I'll detail what I think later. BUT PLEASE if you didn't try score v2 on a large panel of maps, then dont even talk about it, or you're just someone being too emotionnal. Which... I'm pretty sure is the case of a lot of people complaining here.
Edgar_Figaro
Yeah I am perfectly fine with them changing finishers to 4x score because that way even a 50% hit is still worth more than a 100% hit regular note. So it'll still incentivise people to hit them over playing it safe. I also think the slider and spinner change are fine barring maps with ninja sliders/spinners. (Although I do worry about the 1/4 timing for songs with extremely high BPM but hopefully 30% requirement shouldn't make it a miss)

The only changes I have a major issue with are the HP change & finishers giving a miss/combobreak

Also the 1000000 point score on maps I will admit I like as it gives an idea how close to perfection you are
Endaris

Arrival wrote:

I mean do you guys ACTUALLY looked at what this "MASSIVE" "HUGE" "DRASTIC" modification changes on gameplay ? Well, nearly nothing. Nearly everyone hits sliders / spinners / finishers now, so giving them importance will be only a better thing. If you like taiko now, you'll like it on Score v2. If you hate it now, then you'll hate it on score v2 too.
Do you have statistics on that?
That's like saying none plays converts and here is n1doking...

The concerns voiced regarding drumroll- and spinnerusage in mapping and how they would play out in the new context can't just be breezed off without thinking.
I for example often like to hit drumrolls with some custom rhythm I deem fitting when I have the impression that spamming all the ticks through doesn't fit the song in that place. And based on how drumrolls used to work maybe this is even what the mapper intended?
The same goes for the selected HP value as well so you should at least take a careful look instead of saying "nah, everything's fine because literally nothing changes". That's definitely wrong because things do change even if they actually end up being fine.

As far as I understood it, the intention of Taiko score v2 is to create a scoring system that is easier to understand for the clueless viewer and as such we get the analogies with 1m score and health to the other modes.
I'm not sure if the current setup is a success because as already mentioned, the mechanic of gaining score is less transparent with the arbitrary cap and the unknown scaling of combo- and accuracyscore which is also impossible to tell apart from each other. I think the possibility of losing score does not really make a scoring system easier to understand either.
I think I can just repeat my already voiced opinion here: The Taiko v1 scoring system is fairly straightforward, easy to understand and does a good job overall. I don't see a value in changing it to some weird values with new calculations just to have the same number as in the other modes when you lose some significant bits on the way that the other scoring systems (specifically std+ctb v1) never offered.

The premise of making all elements contribute to the score meaningfully is good from a viewing perspective though. I don't think the intended mechanics for the elements are suited to make their way into regular Taiko as they are now but for a tournament - why not? There have already been quite some comments on the finisher-mechanic though but it looks like you have an eye on it already. Same for notelock.
Health is just...meh. Taiko is not balanced around it like that. I see how the healthsystem of the other modes is easier to understand for a novice but I really don't think that this small benefit outweighs the balancing of the health and potential player or team deaths. Especially considering that Loctav wants to have the pool being significantly harder than last years...while it may be interesting from a competitive perspective as mentioned by Tasha such stuff is absolutely awful to watch when it ends up happening and most importantly - the team/player that dies on a spike with the new system would have lost the map in 99% of cases anyway! The major difference is that it feels worse and less "gg".
Nofool

Tasha wrote:

We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it
who?

i mean if you'r gonna force scoreV2 over pple's opinions, why not force that too?? (which is actually something we want LOL)


edit : cheaters give their opinions, only on osu :)
Conor
will this be exclusive to tournaments or do you actually have plans to push this new system for the entire mode?

asking before i share my opinions on what the changes should be because i see a lot of people talking about converted maps here when i don't think they're understanding that this will only be for tournaments.
xtrem3x

Nofool wrote:

Tasha wrote:

We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it
who?

i mean if you'r gonna force scoreV2 over pple's opinions, why not force that too?? (which is actually something we want LOL)

Exact ... who's oppose? ...

obtain rank based in converteds EZ+DT is pathetic ... I even regret having Holy Orders with Easy
capes-
It's more of a problem with the taiko pp system than anything else. Regardless, it's best not to turn this into a convert argument thread since I don't think score v2 has anything to do with them.
ManP
Sorry :?
roufou
I'm still not liking the idea of finishers basically turning into osu!mania. They've always been optional in osu! and every other taiko game, changing it now seems to be forcing people to play a specific way to play a map, not forcing people to play a specific way to get extra points. (this is a pretty unique thing taiko has over most other rhythm games)

Also honestly the maps forced finishers actually affect are generally maps with a lot of finishers, which you're pretty much bound to lose at in twc if you don't hit them vs someone who hits them while both fc. If you don't hit the finishers on maps like Schrodinger's Cat, Burn and Burn It Down you've already lost to be honest, also worth mentioning that all the maps mentioned are very playable with DT which I'd say makes it really challenging if you intend to hit finishers.
Backfire
All I know is Lno would have a totally legit #1 on marisa
ManP
Sorry :?
Niko-nyan
Hello and let's take a look

A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
This might be a hard choice to let you know if the current ScoreV1 didn't give any miss for unsuccessful completion but if this score is being used on gimmick maps, it might be a worse idea at all.

For the second statement, it's really a good idea. This will pretend any huge score difference between x100 combos and x0-x99 combo(s) when being calculated.

For the third statement, how about if we did an unsuccesfull completion of a spinner? Will the HP drain decrease like before (ScoreV1)?

@Loctav : Please make sure that the mappools for TWC2017 won't be awkward. Unranked maps mostly awful to get a good score and had many unranked stuffs (but there are some unranked maps with a good reason to be on mappools).

i will check the other comments on this discussion first :3 and then continue this one
Topic Starter
smoogipoo
I've pushed out a new build with a few changes to address most concerns in this thread. Check out the OP (I will update this with every new update going forward) and let me know what you think of the new changes.
roufou
I will say that I like it a lot better now than before, from what I understand combo has an effect on score still but not as much as before? I'm still not entirely happy about finishers counting as a combo break in that case.

Oh well, I'm glad some middle ground has been made already.
_yu68
My English is not good, sorry.
I basically agree if this applies only in tournament.
But I disagree to give big notes possibility of misscount.
The reason for this is that depending on keyboard and pc spec, it may not be judged that pressed with both hands.
Niko-nyan
@smoogipooo, it's better than before now. A lot of changed from original but about the big notes, i'm still disagree a little bit. check yu68's :) i would agree with his reason
Conor
did you fix HDHR for tournament settings only? regular play needs this badly because for way too long it's been DT or nothing. i would love to see DT have something that could match it for once. the balance of scores/pp on standard with HDHR/DT is something i think taiko has needed for years. i didn't think i would live to see the day where HDHR was actually usable.

normal notes are fine.

remove anything combo break/missing related from finishers and they'll be fine. the 1 key/2 key score difference is all you need for these. there's way too many playstyle and equipment factors to make combo break/missing ever work for these. it's kinda daft to me. if it was in my hands i would make 1 key worth 2x a normal note and 2 keys worth 4x a normal note but have them both still count as a 300.

the drumrolls are amazing. i beg you to apply this change to regular play. drumroll ticks changing to 1/8 on bpm<=125 has been a pain for everyone since the dawn of time (mainly score farmers). 250bpm drumrolls on 125bpm songs is something that shouldn't happen. the rest of the changes are fine. i heavily agree on them being added to the 1,000,000 score and not counting towards combo. notelocking being removed is another godsend especially when it comes to high bpm since a lot of people including myself begin to hit them with 4 keys at that point. the missing aspect of these shouldn't be a problem for anybody now.

spinners are fine.

health is something i need to play around with a little more but as it stands there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference. it seems pretty solid if you ask me and the whole idea of "building HP" has confused viewers and new players forever.
Fuel
Given that the punishment for not hitting a finisher has now gone up from 2x to 4x, it seems rather excessive to add a minimum ~40k point deficit on top of that in the form of a combobreak. (insert something about keyboard not registering finisher hits here).
Loctav
Before I will make the decision whether to change the slider tick bonus to a different value or whether to make finishers slider break or not (or have a x4 bonus, having both really seems excessively punishing on misheap), i want to do some maths with how scorev2 currently computes these notes and how scorev1 would. Please give me some time for that.

I am glad you like the changes to HDHR and fixing resolution abuse. I didn't get quite the chance yet to test this out and figure if new HR itself it broken (? I heard rumors), but yet again I urge everyone to test things directly (maybe we can get HDHR into ranked play already, I'd love so)

Everything else from this point on feels like balancing, as in how much gives what, how much does every note drain, is it feasible to keep this HP system with current map settings, etc.
for that I will need to do some excessive maths sessions and get back to you with my results, so I am asking for patience here and thank you for all the feedback so far!

Finisher hits not being registered seemed to be a long term display bug that actually resulted in registering the finisher, but not showing you that it did. This display bug seem to be fixed, too, as I can suddenly reliably hit all finishers, which was never the case before.
OnosakiHito
MY HD+HR MY LIFE IS COMPLETE AYAYAYAYAYAYAYA
roufou
the finisher bug is still not fixed, you can hit finishers correctly and get bonus points but depending on (I think) PC and keyboard it won't show it as a finisher hit.

There are also cases where it might show finisher hit sometimes and normal hit other times if you hit correctly and get double points, I get it to show that I hit a finisher extremely rarely, but I generally get double points all the time if I hit correctly.
5urface
For me the finisher display bug still persists. While being able to get the hit and score of the two button Finisher it displays and shows up in the stats at the end of the song as Finisher only if I hit both notes on the same frame (which at 2000 fps isn't happening often).
Finisher bug on end screen

Kiai time is still being ignored - Why is that?

Drumrolls with the removed notelock are actually fun to play and with that removed making them hitobjects is actually balanced so no issues here.

I still need more time to see if HP is balanced

The miss on Finishers needs to go though. 4x score should be enough reason to play them properly.
Conor
finishers for some reason can be 300'd in 2 different ways. they're kinda like 300/MAX notes on mania but on taiko you get awarded with the same points for both outcomes. this is how it works in scorev1 and i'm guessing that's how it works in scorev2 because i can't think of anything that would change it.

i believe it has something to do with the ms difference between your 2 key presses. if you hit them close enough to each other you get a MAX hit instead.
5urface

Conor wrote:

finishers for some reason can be 300'd in 2 different ways. they're kinda like 300/MAX notes on mania but on taiko you get awarded with the same points for both outcomes. this is how it works in scorev1 and i'm guessing that's how it works in scorev2 because i can't think of anything that would change it.

i believe it has something to do with the ms difference between your 2 key presses. if you hit them close enough to each other you get a MAX hit instead.
I actually investigated this a while back, within a hit window of about +-15ms you get the Finisher hit awarded without it showing as a real Finisher on screen and in stats. For me it only awards the real Finisher hit if I hit both notes on the same frame which is framerate dependant and therefore stupid. When I limited my framerate to 120 fps I could consistently hit Finishers that showed up in stats as well.
Loctav
Resolution scaling is having the sideeffect of altering the scroll speed on different resolutions, so I am currently trying to figure out a solution for that.

Kiai time/Go-Go time is currently not giving any benefits, but that might change. Let us figure out the bases first before we go into multipliers and other elements.

The display bug on fnishers, I dunno, it seem to be gone but now it is back, so I am a bit puzzled. But at least it is registering the input and doesn't break combo in case of it showing just the normal hit.

I am not sure about HP, I feel that right now it is not scaling properly, being way too easy as of currently.

HDHR turns out to be pretty easy once you play the fixed version, so I might consider buffing HR to be really worth to be on par with DT, because right now, HDHR is just cheap in comparison to DT. (as in, DT demands way more for the same score bonus, e.g. in terms of hit window)
Yuzeyun
Is there a rounding error on per-note score?
Map composition: 873 circles (a few big notes, but they're not the question), 0 slider, 0 spinner.



Edit: I think I know what caused the +159 points:


Side note, I don't know if this is just me, but the scrolling speed was faster. Is this the inception of ratio-based scrolling speed scale?

———

About big notes, have you considered that not every player has keyboards that register big notes (either perfectly or with the delay)? I mean, having misses due to having hardware that don't register big notes correctly should not be acceptable in tournament setting, as this passively tells "have a correct keyboard to play". I see no one willing to do that in the middle of a tournament, and even less if they're too young.

———
Conor
whoa you're right about the low frame rate

i always thought the display was based off ms difference because auto plays with a hit error of +/- 0.00 and gets perfect hits on them all

i can agree with the HP being too easy right now

the fixed HDHR is simply HD with higher OD (but DT should have a higher score multiplier than HDHR imo)
k3v227

Loctav wrote:

HDHR turns out to be pretty easy once you play the fixed version, so I might consider buffing HR to be really worth to be on par with DT, because right now, HDHR is just cheap in comparison to DT. (as in, DT demands way more for the same score bonus, e.g. in terms of hit window)
Perhaps HDHR could have x1.1 instead of x1.12?
karterfreak
We discovered a bug (visual) where non frame perfect finisher hits will give +2 combo instead of +1. Frame perfect finishers will give +1 as expected. Score isn't affected as far as I can tell.

Might be related to visual bug about finisher score / hit graphic not being displayed correctly if not hit frame perfect (including result screen display having the same issue)
Loctav

I already found out about that and requested a fix for it

scroll speed currently alters with used resolution, so we need to rethink this and make resolution stop having any impact on scroll speed or visible notes altogether.
frukoyurdakul
There is a SV change (well, less SV to be precise) happening at the end of the sliders (drum rolls). I think it's not intentional and needs to be fixed.
karterfreak
Doesn't it kinda make sense for higher resolutions to have a faster scroll if you're aiming for them to have identical amount of notes on the screen? 16:9 is obviously wider than 4:3 so 16:9 notes should scroll faster shouldn't they? What are you guys aiming to do here?

Also sliders visibly slow down at the end now.

edit: ninja'd by frukoyurdakul

edit x 2: SLIDERS SLOWING DOWN IS ALSO HAPPENING IN SCOREV1
_yu68
Isn't scroll speed changing intended?

I think same scroll speed as 4:3 should be applied even at 16:9 resolution.
5urface

_yu68 wrote:

Is scroll speed changing not intended?

I think same scroll speed as 4:3 should be applied even at 16:9 resolution.
That would be unfair for 4:3 screen users as they would see less notes at the same time and it would be horribly unfair on higher SV
Same scroll speed on different screen aspect ratios could only be achieved if the length of the taiko bar was limited on wider resolutions.

I think the double hit finisher/not registering as real finisher bug happens as follows: Taiko registers a hit on a finisher immediately as the first button is pressed. If the second button is pressed on the same frame it registers as proper finisher. If the second button is pressed later but still within the acceptable time frame, it will add another hit, add the score of the second hit and internally count the finisher as hit by two buttons. But as the finisher was already registered as not being hit with two, but one button it wont revert that.
To fix this you would have to change how hit registration works on finishers, only registering the single/double button press after the 30ms timeframe for successfully hitting both buttons has passed.

Currently hitting the finisher buttons on different frames also seems to award more points:

Auto SS score with perfect finishers
My SS score with finisher hits on different frames
_yu68

5urface wrote:

That would be unfair for 4:3 screen users as they would see less notes at the same time and it would be horribly unfair on higher SV
Same scroll speed on different screen aspect ratios could only be achieved if the length of the taiko bar was limited on wider resolutions.
Can't players change resolution by option?

The disadvantage by 4:3 monitor is like the disadvantage by pc specs.
Should not restrict 16:9 players due to such problems.

Osu!taiko models "Taiko no Tatsujin", 16:9 scroll is closest to it.
So osu!taiko should follow with it.

To maintain fairness, It is best to slow 4:3 scroll on scorev 2 with 16:9 scroll as reference.
Nwolf
osu!taiko is not Taiko no Tatsujin. It doesn't have to follow it and scorev2 is a step in the direction of REALLY not following TnT mechanics.
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