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posted
So kiai time will make me blind even on scorev2 *sigh*

On one hand I love how big notes will force players to play the maps as they were intended to, but spinners and drum rolls feel like they shouldn't be so strict, especially that they have little to do with "rhythm" I know, contradicting myself right from the start. Spinners are a bit easier to argue against, as they are great in concept but awful at execution (why would you need to mash more if the OD is higher, when the song is the same?). Drum rolls are basically lenient streams in most of the cases; I feel like their main purpose is filling out streams in easier difficulties. I don't really have enough experience as a mapper to comment on drum roll gimmick maps, so I won't comment on it. I feel that they need a rework (maybe don/kat sliders where you have to hold and release, much like in mania but colour based? Loctav mentioned that they aren't afraid turning taiko away from TnT, so experimenting with changing these elements shouldn't be unthinkable.)

I thought the score would be weighting combo as much as in std, but gladly, this does not seem to be the case. However, score rankings will absolutely lose their meaning in all of the modes with scorev2 with the 1m cap. Why would I try to fc long hard stuff if I could just spam 30 second maps for the same score? As for people arguing that big notes shouldn't break the combo, as 4x score is significant enough of an award - outside of tournaments people won't give a damn about big notes.

I think the worst element of the scorev2 is the HP update. Taiko has the best HP system of all the modes. Obviously notelocking is a huge reason, but I think tons of people prefer taiko's HP system over mania's. It'll force some players to use NF when they just want to play some maps. Also it is very traumatising if you lose a tournament match because you failed at the end, while the enemy team had people failing left and right during the map, but managed to climb back at the end. Looking at the whole performance instead of certain segments makes more sense for HP Unless on maps that have unreasonable difficulty spikes.

Overall I have mixed feelings about this.
posted
So if we are focusing on just ranked maps than here are my following thoughts

Spinners: OK

Sliders: OK

Finishers: I don't like this change but I think others have said everything that needs to be said

HP: The big problem I see with the HP system is notelocking. While yes Loctav mentioned removing notelocking as he didn't see the point of it, there is a very good reason notelocking exists. At low difficulties a player could conceivably hit every single note with all 4 buttons as everything is just 1/1 or 1/2 locked. But due to notelocking you will miss and break combo preventing players from just ignoring needing to read red vs blue.

At higher difficulties sure hitting all 4 buttons is impossible (unless we get some mania players who can just hammerjack for minutes straight which they would become instant amazing at Taiko) but players could instead stream an entire 1/4 section of a map just keeping the rythmn with both hands at the same time. Basically they could if using DDKK just keep their index fingers timed together or the middle fingers timed together. For KDDK would be slightly harder as players would need to hit Index finger on one hand at the same time as middle finger on the other hand just so you had a red & blue note hit for every beat of the stream. Would this be tiring on long streams? You Bet! But players can play index finger only so I can guarantee there are people who could do this.
posted
Tons of ranked maps now have HP<5 this is going to make maps incredibly easy to pass

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1110965

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?



Also something I would like to ask is what is going to happen to all the scores that have finishers only pressed with one key? Are the scores going to remain how they are or what? It will show in replays that they missed where on the overall score it'll say they FC'd.
posted
So balancing HP is going to take a little bit of experimentation. Do let us know if it's too lenient. At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.
posted
As of being years of a Taiko player, I believe not only me, but most of us are giving comments on this thread from our hearts. Isn't it really that hard to understand what we have been thinking since this thread came out? We are not finding the point that we might compromise such as tuning the 'miss count' to a 'combobreak' only, or just balancing the new HP system. Isn't our thoughts as hard to understand as they are ... just become negligible?

Just a quick reply on the changes :

- For the combobreak just like a sliderbreak as Std mode, or even count as a miss if players hit a finisher with only a single tap, this is way too punishing for players that they are actually having a lower score gained as the consequence. I don't see we need further punishments on the players (even they really skin the finisher notes becoming normal hit notes) who hit them in single tap, or the people actually could play good but couldn't tap 2 taps together (just styles problem, or yeah, the index fingers player) will be unacceptably topped by the others just because they couldn't get a high enough score from what they actually did their best.

- For the changes on slider and spinner, nah, nothing should be done to these 'bonus things'. For years, sliders and spinners in a map are just about the mapping style, but not as regarded as one major part of the plays and the scores, and which it shouldn't. Not the Taiko no Tatsujin, and not the osu!Taiko. Counting them as a miss in any conditions, as well as the new HP system, is undoubtedly the worst idea I've ever seen.

- For the new HP system, just one sentence. Taiko is not Mania, and shouldn't be considered as how Mania is in any species of talking.

We play game for fun and challenges, not for BEING LESS PUNISHED

Comeon...
posted
i just keep seeing players' feedback of why they don't like this being dismissed or ignored, with the reasoning of "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it". well, what's gonna happen in a year, 2 years, or whenever this is the main scoring system, and people still don't like it? they're gonna have no choice but to switch to it. they won't get to leave any feedback on why it shouldn't be the main scoring system... oh wait, they already have and it's been denied just because "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it".

nobody asked for this. the only people supporting/defending it are just saying "i can live with this" or "get used to change", not "i love these new changes and i think they are good". they're accepting it because it's inevitable that this will be forced upon them and they're just dealing with it. but that still doesn't mean the changes were good. why not fix some of the many things that have been broken in this game for years that people actually have been asking for?

if it was just a simple scoring change then it would be easier to deal with, but these are changes to the core mechanics of the game. while i can see the reasoning for some of them, they just aren't necessary, and they change the game and make it farther from what i know and love taiko for. and i know i'm not the only one that feels this way.

please listen to your players.
posted
Some personal opinions here. I'll start by saying I don't like the whole scoreV2 thing, both because of objective reasons and personal preferences.

HP: I dislike any sort of draining mechanism as the current HP system is what I prefer. I have some experience in playing all 4 gamemodes (although not so good at other 3) and honestly I hate the drain system which can fail a player before the song ends. Not only it's frustrating for players because of a single difficulty spike (hi galaxy collapse), it's also unfair in twc context when an obviously better-performing player gets 0 score just because he could not revive after failing at an intense part (as mentioned by _verto_). This is further aggravated by notelocking issues mentioned several times before. I'd prefer current HP system in which HP value is reasonably adjusted by mappers in a case by case basis, rather than a draining system that literally kills a player if he misses like 8 notes in HP6 (what Onosaki tested in his post), which is not uncommon even for twc level players.

smoogipooo wrote:

At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.
Even when halved I'll still say it's very high, considering it's not uncommon to have long 1/4 sections, often mixed with 1/6s. Pretty much an instant-kill if one misses such stream placed at the very end of a song.

1m score cap: I don't think this is a good idea for twc. If I didn't misunderstand, a lower combo difficulty means more score obtainable per note, and hence more score loss per note if a player gets an inaccurate hit or miss. If so, it creates an odd situation in which high combo count means score loss can be easily remedied by hitting more in sliders (drumrolls) or finishes, but a lot less feasible in low combo difficulties. The original scoring algorithm is fairer because it doesn't favor any side on both cases, so why bother replacing it?

Finish: I oppose the new proposal because of two reasons. One, changing the bonus multiplier from 2 to 4 is way too much. The penalty for not obtaining full finish score (either inaccurate hit or not hitting both sides) is way too harsh, considering 4 inaccurate normal notes equals to 1 inaccurate finish (Unmei explained this further). Two, it doesn't make sense to treat non-double-hit finish as a miss. This is utterly unfair to 2-finger players which I can personally confirm (frukoyurdakul and animexamera said the same thing).

Loctav wrote:

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?
Because they place a finger on each key, which is not always the case in taiko. If you're saying it's 2-finger players' fault, you're basically disregarding all the efforts they paid on this game. Also I don't get why unranked are to be ignored. Some of them did appear in mappool of twc6.

Drumrolls (Sliders): The forced 1/4 drumroll spacing makes no sense, since some songs have 1/3 or 1/6-based rhythm and the mappers already put slider tick rate 3 on them. Also it could be painful to play long drumrolls in high bpm (270? 300?). Besides, considering <30% hit as miss can be problematic because of notelocking. Players often miss all slider ticks if there is a note 1/4 before the drumroll unless they hit earlier/later purposefully (which doesn't fit the song rhythm, see what Onosaki wrote).

Spinners: My biggest concerns would be short spinners which have little time to hit. Forcing a miss for incomplete hits is likely to create significant score difference (in twc context), which I think is over-penalized.

And for the combo-breaking concept (for finishes, drumrolls and spinners), I don't think that's even needed, given players are already given less score if they fail to complete. In competitive environment like twc such score loss is already significant enough to provide them incentives to complete them, and further punishment seems to be overdone.

At least for me, the current scoring system is fine but this new proposal doesn't seem well-thought.
posted
I am not sure if people here noticed or understood the construct of the 1 000 000 points so far, so keep in mind:

Score is composed of two parts. Accuracy score (80% or 800 000) and combo score (20% or 200 000). Accuracy score is determined by the correctness of your hits and ONLY by that. (Combo has no impact here, hitting all 300 gives you the 800 000). Vica Versa for the Combo portion, this is determined by your combo. (Max combo will give 200 000 points). Combo breaks only impact the 20%. 300/100/Miss only impact the 80%.
Right now, slider ticks are counted into combo score (however, this isn't right)
300/100 hits don't give exactly 300/100 or increased based on combo, they give score based on the amount of total notes and based on whether you hit right (300) or close to right (100). Same goes for combo score. A max combo will give you 200 000 points at the end (and hitting all ticks, which is silly so let's disregard that for the sake of explanation). Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.
posted

Loctav wrote:

Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.
i'm sorry, but do you even know how score v1 works at all in taiko?
posted
yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.
posted

Loctav wrote:

yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.
Yes, but it caps out at 100 combo which means that currently you will get the same score if you break combo once no matter at what part of the song unless it's within the first and last 100 notes where you will lose less. What this achieves is predictability and consistency - even across different maps. On regular notes a combo break will net you about 40k score loss, no matter what map or where the combo break was. This system is inherently fair and predictable which can't be said about the new system which lacks the transparency of the current scoring system.
posted

Loctav wrote:

capping out eventually
I hope you realise that 'eventually' is at 100 combo, so in your example (ignoring spinners/finishers/kiai) neither player would be 'extremely penalized' more so than the other. This is not standard, breaking combo mid-map vs early in the map has very little difference.
posted
Let me post my personal opinion.
Will there be only ScoreV2 one day?

If so,please make slider,spinner and notelock make sense.
To defining highest score will not matter,but please do not let 1,000,000 include any sliders and any spinners.
Objectively speaking,current ScoreV2 does not make sense because of sliders and spinners. I think they should be "Additional Score" in taiko.
Then,let sliders enable score. In detail,to enable to get a score per players tap their keyboard (like original taiko)
I expect this will make sense more than current specification.

As you guys know,HP Drain system with notelocking is kind of annoying. I do not have anything to say especially.

About finishers,let me say "do not let finishers be Combobreak". That's it.
If there will be only ScoreV2,I swear this would become biggest problem of it.

Thanks :3
posted
To be perfectly honest I feel like this entire new score V2 for Taiko is only a thing because "hey we made a score V2 for the other gamemodes, we should also make one for Taiko!" Taiko is honestly the only gamemode that didn't need a score V2 as the scoring system had a good balance between ACC & combo as combo only built up to 100 for points. With mania it was needed as combo had 0 importance and it was definitely needed in standard as ACC was irrelevant if you could hold a great combo.
posted

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

To be perfectly honest I feel like this entire new score V2 for Taiko is only a thing because "hey we made a score V2 for the other gamemodes, we should also make one for Taiko!" Taiko is honestly the only gamemode that didn't need a score V2 as the scoring system had a good balance between ACC & combo as combo only built up to 100 for points.
posted
After long and careful consideration I think I came up with the perfect solution for the Taiko Score V2 issue:

How about you entirely scrap what you have right now, listen to what the community (you know, those guys who actually play and keep the game alive) wants and reevaluate the whole system?

I don't mind if you change how the score is calculated exactly or if you introduce a score limit, rebalance accuracy vs. combo value in score. But don't touch the actual gameplay of Taiko, that's just asking for disaster to happen.

What's the reason behind Score V2 for Taiko anyways? Noone asked for this or remotely wants it. Did people complain about score calculation in Taiko?
Wouldn't this development time be better invested in the bigger issues Taiko has, issues that the community has actually asked you to fix?
Change doesn't always equal improvement.
posted
It's just like back in the old 2008 days
posted
I usually don't involve myself in forums like this, but shit, I need to get this out.
Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
This is the only thing I agree with.
Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
No. Why the hell, would a double press be REQUIRED, to hit the note. Do you have any idea, how difficult so many maps would become, just because of this? The way we have it now is totally okay. If you hit it like a normal note, it's treated like a normal note. Nobody has *ever* complained about this. If you want the bonus points, hit it like a double. Bam. World moves on.
Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
Drum roll ticks should not be counted towards combo, what the hell are you thinking?! They're just supposed to be bonus points, this shouldn't be touched, it's not significant, so many maps don't even *have* drum rolls ffs!!! They have NEVER counted for combo and it should stay that way, some sliders just ninja you and they're so short that like, you don't even get to hit them. Oh but that's right, who cares about unranked maps. It's not like every map starts unranked, right loctav? Who cares about unranked maps, like Doppelganger should have fucking been. HP is just stupid period for this.
A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
A miss given for a not completed spinner? Are you kidding me?! WHO DOESN'T COMPLETE SPINNERS?! NOBODY WOULD EVEN NOTICE FFS!! Except when there's ninja spinners but oh right, unranked maps don't matter, only ranked maps amirite. And screw the loved category too why don't we. I can probably get used to the 300 hit eventually. Again HP is just kinda dumb for this.
Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
No.

Listen, nobody asked for this, everybody in the forums are complaining except for loctav. You guys clearly have no fucking idea what you're doing, listen to *us* for a change.
posted
not everybody is complaining, always remember that.
posted
What the fuck is that supposed to mean Nwolf, almost every pro player I know is complaining!!!! This isn't even ScoreV2, this is TAIKOV2!! Not everyone is complaining, so if like, three or four people aren't complaining, then it's okay to change it for the whole fucking community? How about fuck no, why not take a poll and see the true statistics about this or something like that.

The only people who aren't complaining are staff members, but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!
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