Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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smoogipooo wrote:

Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.
So when are we going to discuss Star Rating and PP?
hey so im pretty bad at taiko, but here are my opinions anyways:

- Finishers: I think this is a good change. I always saw hitting finishers with one note to be analogous to "slider cheesing" in standard. I hate to bring up the "intended playing experience", but I think that is relevant here. About this breaking some unranked/loved maps, ya that fuckin sucks. I hate this answer, but the only thing I can think of is having a mod that makes the map "finisher-less" for maybe like 0.9x score

- Drum rolls/spinners: Seems good on paper, but I'm not good enough to provide my own real opinions. What others have said about slider tick-locking seems valid, and that should be fixed.

- Health: So there's a pretty interesting circumstance here... As someone who comes from playing osu!standard and osu!mania, I'm uneasy with the concept of playing through an entire map out of my skill level, and only being punished at the end. That seems like the purpose of NF (with the punishment being, of course, the reduced score). While I don't know much about the scaling of this, I much prefer this new health system. I don't think there will be a huge difference except for beginners (such as myself), and I'll say that being able to know where you need more practice can be beneficial and motivating. About the notelocking thing, uhh, remove that, notelocking is stupid lol.

- 1 Million score limit: Only bringing this up because it's the perfect place to bring up the following. The reason scorev2 is being brought upon us is as an attempt to unify the currently very different gamemodes. I think this is a good idea, as they are, after all, all part of one game. Especially with the modularity of gamemodes that will be introduced, I believe it will be important to make some common mechanics (score, health, etc) somewhat similar across them. This is, however very challenging, because the vastly gameplay of each mode naturally brings up very different scoring systems, as the values of each mode are different (score is meant to be a representation of skill, after all). I don't have a solution, but I wanted to bring this up just so that people have that in mind while suggesting stuff. Though most of the suggestions have been about mechanics unique to taiko so maybe typing all this was a waste of time lol.

About the score limit itself, I don't really think it matters. It's just a different scaling.

Hopefully my thoughts from a taiko noob makes you think idk.

PS: what even is the point of the scorev2 mod ahah. i mean i guess its to try to get more testing on scorev2, but no one is ever going to use it because scores dont submit. if you actually want people to test your thing, make it calculate the scorev1 during the play, and submit that.

PSS (edit): Someone brought up the different playstyles a while ago (too lazy to quote). I think that the vastly different playstyles used by all sorts of taiko players is one of the best things about the gamemode. I think that the reason for this diversity comes from the freedom of how to hit the notes, like singletapping vs alternating on steroids. However there is a limit. People who play osu!std with mouse-only are at a disadvantage, just like 1 finger players should IMO. i probably triggered so many people xd
I might as well leave my few quick thoughts on score v2. Since this seems to be focused on ranked taiko maps, I'll leave any comments on converts and unranked maps (namely gimmicky ones) in spoilers. (note: edited a couple things for more clarity)

For finishers, I think the best way to implement this is keeping it like v1, where hitting the note with one key is worth much less points, but has the same accuracy and doesn't affect combo. With the new 1 million top score, it would be easier to understand how the finishers affect the total score, and it rewards players who hit finishers much more than it does in score v1. As long as they aren't combo-breakers, I'm fine with them. The timing on finishers would probably have to be cleaned up, too. Gimmick maps seem to be gaining popularity, so I don't think they should be ignored entirely. I think maps like Planet/Shaper will end up being broken with v2 no matter what happens, but it would be nice to be able to play some of the tamer ones with tons of finishers (cirno's math class). As for converts... well, they had it coming to them. It would certainly make the leaderboards for them interesting, so long as anyone still plays them.

I like the changes to sliders, here. Like the finishers, the timing would probably have to be cleaned up since if the note is too close to the slider, it makes it easy for the slider to not register any hits. The new slider scoring stops people from getting #1 on easy converts with HT ;) Also I know there's some unranked maps with dumb sliders (including TnT songs) that would make a combo-break with a slider very annoying. They already affect the total score out of 1 million, so perhaps they don't need to combo-break? It's only a small problem.

No problems with the spinners. Having them miss might affect a few gimmick maps with spinner spam. I never liked spinner spam in gimmick maps to begin with, though... Not a big problem, regardless.

I like the new HP system, too. It's annoying to get to the end of a hard map wondering if you have enough hp, only to find out you failed. I played through some HP10 maps in v2, and I was fine with how the drain worked. It seems you guys will be tweaking this, anyways. It makes failing to 1/8 in converts a thing, but I usually end up not passing heavy 1/8 spam maps anyways.

The scoring is fine, from what I've seen. I've always liked accuracy based scoring more than combo, and this is much more forgiving with combo-breaks, which is helpful, considering that there's more ways to break combo now.

In short, I don't like the new sources of combo-breaks, and the finishers are somewhat wonky, but pretty much everything else is fine.
After ranting about it before now I went and actually played a couple of maps in Score V2 and surprise surprise - the current system is surprisingly .... bad.

Before seriously implementing v2 the bugs need to be fixed, especially drumroll and spinner hit registration.
With those fixes in place making these elements hit objects that can break combo is fine.

HP drain as of right now is utterly brutal, this still needs serious rebalance. If this is properly balanced to not instakill you when you miss one note in a stream you can't get back into because Taiko is being Taiko the new system might be decent.

Finishers that break combo need to go. Just award points and accuracy like a regular note if hit with one button and award 4x score if hit with both - This is enough incentive to play them and punishment if not played to full potential especially considering the new maximum score.
Also this would not entirely break converts (in case Score V2 will ever make it to the main client as scoring system). Hate them as you may, they are a part of Osu! Taiko and are ranked so you have to bear with it. Many play converts because they are a different challenge to regular Taiko maps, are actually fun to play and many songs aren't mapped in Taiko. Some people actually play for the music and not pp -.-

The main issue I still have is that the entire map pool is based on and balanced around the current system. With literally tens of thousands of maps to consider rebalancing this will be impossible, some maps will come out ahead, some behind and some will be entirely broken to crash and burn in most spectecular fashion. While most ranked maps might be at least somewhat okay this will be most evident in the vast selection of unranked maps that are such a crucial part of the taiko community.
Who are you to deny the efforts and time those map creators have sacrificed to offer the community this amazing mappool only to have their work be rendered useless by a new scoring system?

Jason X wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
and me ...
If we are going to mention notelocking as an issue in this thread, I want to know if anything will be done about map-specific SV (not HR) on 16:9 vs. 4:3 screen resolutions?

I have already got used to 16:9 a bit more over the past months, but as a 4:3 resolution main I've attempted some comparisons and I came to the conclusion that it seems like the viewfield-width on 16:9 is not being scaled properly to map-SV like HR is (or even HD with its black rectangle on the right) and causes maps with fast SV to become much easier to read compared to 4:3, resulting 4:3 to be more of a handicap than anything.

With this being focused on for TWC 2017, I want to add to that focus by alluding this SV-scaling issue. My fear is that devs/map pickers are not aware of this and will pick maps that are close to impossible to read with 4:3, albeit this point may be subjective and egocentric. However, in TWC 2016 Finals DT map pool, this map was picked and I was certain to bail out from playing this because this was extremely harsh to read on 4:3. The map is fast on 16:9 too, yes, but I noticed I was able to combo it much better, eventually getting a sloppy Full Combo during a session with 16:9.

Concluding, I do want to point out it was not my aim to appear salty by mentioning this, given that with 16:9 most of the PP rewarding standard converts like this map appear easier to play and me still playing 4:3, but it is still an issue which at least has earned the right to be mentioned. I haven't checked 16:9 vs. 4:3 scaling on the other modes, but if they do scale, then it is definitely an issue. I will also say that I'm not hoping for a fix anytime soon, as I can see such a fix having no purpose if 4:3 is perhaps being removed entirely with osu!next, but I am hoping to at least have awoken some attention towards 4:3 players, so maps like YuYu Metal can be avoided for the upcoming TWC.


As with scorev2:

You have issued more mechanics that will change with scorev2 than actual "score" elements. So what are the changes to scoring going to be? The only thing I see is implied by OP, where there is going to be a 1,000,000 score cap like in mania and standard (afaik), and it is also stated that normal notes will continue to give a constant value towards that score. But how are you going to make sure the 1,000,000 score cap is reached? The points given must scale somehow to presume that cap, right? How will that be done? Is it just going to be along the lines of "single_note_score = 1,000,000 / (Total Notes - (Other score%s))"? How much is the score affected by Combo like it is at the moment with its original Taiko no Tatsujin scoring increments until 100 Combo? Will there be penalties for missing like in standard? Forgive me if that has been said before, but I do want some clarification here.


- osu!mania HP drain is harsh but not as harsh as osu!standard, so objectively I'm fine with the HP drain thing coming to osu!taiko, as long as notelocking will be fixed. However, I do agree with some people mentioning already existing maps being in a disadvantageous spot if this were to be implemented. I'd vouch for a HP drain rate value that scales to e.g. OD instead of having HP as a separate value set by the mapper next to OD.

- Spinners and drum rolls make sense in terms of them now having more purpose towards combo and score than they have at the moment. The forced 1/4 spacing seems like an attempt to prevent things like 1/8 drum rolls at e.g. 300 bpm or something similar, but I am not sure what this will mean for the mapping aspect and for all of the already existing maps, so I will stay neutral here.

- For the purpose of TWC 2017, having Finishers being forced to be played as a double tap note and otherwise resulting in a miss seems reasonable. But if this were to be implemented live, I can see a new PP algorithm or a complete reiteration of all players' current PP values for osu!taiko being required. I am most concerned about standard converts here.

For a TWC setting, I wouldn't mind these changes at all. However, if this were to go live, I'd like to see PP being adjusted first. Furthermore, as you can see, unranked/loved maps will be a great issue to so many players (including me, I admit), but I can't think of any good way to solve this. It is easy to disable scoring entirely for unranked maps, but I'm not sure what will happen to Loved maps and the Loved state itself. I also don't know how much the new mechanics will influence mapping, but I'm sure they will.
Something else I just noticed - Did you guys forget about Kiai Time?

It seems like Kiai Time doesn't effect hit scores whatsoever. Shouldn't it still add 20% score bonus?
i bet u guys worked real hard on this and were really proud of it and excited to share it
So kiai time will make me blind even on scorev2 *sigh*

On one hand I love how big notes will force players to play the maps as they were intended to, but spinners and drum rolls feel like they shouldn't be so strict, especially that they have little to do with "rhythm" I know, contradicting myself right from the start. Spinners are a bit easier to argue against, as they are great in concept but awful at execution (why would you need to mash more if the OD is higher, when the song is the same?). Drum rolls are basically lenient streams in most of the cases; I feel like their main purpose is filling out streams in easier difficulties. I don't really have enough experience as a mapper to comment on drum roll gimmick maps, so I won't comment on it. I feel that they need a rework (maybe don/kat sliders where you have to hold and release, much like in mania but colour based? Loctav mentioned that they aren't afraid turning taiko away from TnT, so experimenting with changing these elements shouldn't be unthinkable.)

I thought the score would be weighting combo as much as in std, but gladly, this does not seem to be the case. However, score rankings will absolutely lose their meaning in all of the modes with scorev2 with the 1m cap. Why would I try to fc long hard stuff if I could just spam 30 second maps for the same score? As for people arguing that big notes shouldn't break the combo, as 4x score is significant enough of an award - outside of tournaments people won't give a damn about big notes.

I think the worst element of the scorev2 is the HP update. Taiko has the best HP system of all the modes. Obviously notelocking is a huge reason, but I think tons of people prefer taiko's HP system over mania's. It'll force some players to use NF when they just want to play some maps. Also it is very traumatising if you lose a tournament match because you failed at the end, while the enemy team had people failing left and right during the map, but managed to climb back at the end. Looking at the whole performance instead of certain segments makes more sense for HP Unless on maps that have unreasonable difficulty spikes.

Overall I have mixed feelings about this.
So if we are focusing on just ranked maps than here are my following thoughts

Spinners: OK

Sliders: OK

Finishers: I don't like this change but I think others have said everything that needs to be said

HP: The big problem I see with the HP system is notelocking. While yes Loctav mentioned removing notelocking as he didn't see the point of it, there is a very good reason notelocking exists. At low difficulties a player could conceivably hit every single note with all 4 buttons as everything is just 1/1 or 1/2 locked. But due to notelocking you will miss and break combo preventing players from just ignoring needing to read red vs blue.

At higher difficulties sure hitting all 4 buttons is impossible (unless we get some mania players who can just hammerjack for minutes straight which they would become instant amazing at Taiko) but players could instead stream an entire 1/4 section of a map just keeping the rythmn with both hands at the same time. Basically they could if using DDKK just keep their index fingers timed together or the middle fingers timed together. For KDDK would be slightly harder as players would need to hit Index finger on one hand at the same time as middle finger on the other hand just so you had a red & blue note hit for every beat of the stream. Would this be tiring on long streams? You Bet! But players can play index finger only so I can guarantee there are people who could do this.
Tons of ranked maps now have HP<5 this is going to make maps incredibly easy to pass


Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

Also something I would like to ask is what is going to happen to all the scores that have finishers only pressed with one key? Are the scores going to remain how they are or what? It will show in replays that they missed where on the overall score it'll say they FC'd.
Topic Starter
So balancing HP is going to take a little bit of experimentation. Do let us know if it's too lenient. At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.
As of being years of a Taiko player, I believe not only me, but most of us are giving comments on this thread from our hearts. Isn't it really that hard to understand what we have been thinking since this thread came out? We are not finding the point that we might compromise such as tuning the 'miss count' to a 'combobreak' only, or just balancing the new HP system. Isn't our thoughts as hard to understand as they are ... just become negligible?

Just a quick reply on the changes :

- For the combobreak just like a sliderbreak as Std mode, or even count as a miss if players hit a finisher with only a single tap, this is way too punishing for players that they are actually having a lower score gained as the consequence. I don't see we need further punishments on the players (even they really skin the finisher notes becoming normal hit notes) who hit them in single tap, or the people actually could play good but couldn't tap 2 taps together (just styles problem, or yeah, the index fingers player) will be unacceptably topped by the others just because they couldn't get a high enough score from what they actually did their best.

- For the changes on slider and spinner, nah, nothing should be done to these 'bonus things'. For years, sliders and spinners in a map are just about the mapping style, but not as regarded as one major part of the plays and the scores, and which it shouldn't. Not the Taiko no Tatsujin, and not the osu!Taiko. Counting them as a miss in any conditions, as well as the new HP system, is undoubtedly the worst idea I've ever seen.

- For the new HP system, just one sentence. Taiko is not Mania, and shouldn't be considered as how Mania is in any species of talking.

We play game for fun and challenges, not for BEING LESS PUNISHED

i just keep seeing players' feedback of why they don't like this being dismissed or ignored, with the reasoning of "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it". well, what's gonna happen in a year, 2 years, or whenever this is the main scoring system, and people still don't like it? they're gonna have no choice but to switch to it. they won't get to leave any feedback on why it shouldn't be the main scoring system... oh wait, they already have and it's been denied just because "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it".

nobody asked for this. the only people supporting/defending it are just saying "i can live with this" or "get used to change", not "i love these new changes and i think they are good". they're accepting it because it's inevitable that this will be forced upon them and they're just dealing with it. but that still doesn't mean the changes were good. why not fix some of the many things that have been broken in this game for years that people actually have been asking for?

if it was just a simple scoring change then it would be easier to deal with, but these are changes to the core mechanics of the game. while i can see the reasoning for some of them, they just aren't necessary, and they change the game and make it farther from what i know and love taiko for. and i know i'm not the only one that feels this way.

please listen to your players.
Some personal opinions here. I'll start by saying I don't like the whole scoreV2 thing, both because of objective reasons and personal preferences.

HP: I dislike any sort of draining mechanism as the current HP system is what I prefer. I have some experience in playing all 4 gamemodes (although not so good at other 3) and honestly I hate the drain system which can fail a player before the song ends. Not only it's frustrating for players because of a single difficulty spike (hi galaxy collapse), it's also unfair in twc context when an obviously better-performing player gets 0 score just because he could not revive after failing at an intense part (as mentioned by _verto_). This is further aggravated by notelocking issues mentioned several times before. I'd prefer current HP system in which HP value is reasonably adjusted by mappers in a case by case basis, rather than a draining system that literally kills a player if he misses like 8 notes in HP6 (what Onosaki tested in his post), which is not uncommon even for twc level players.

smoogipooo wrote:

At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.
Even when halved I'll still say it's very high, considering it's not uncommon to have long 1/4 sections, often mixed with 1/6s. Pretty much an instant-kill if one misses such stream placed at the very end of a song.

1m score cap: I don't think this is a good idea for twc. If I didn't misunderstand, a lower combo difficulty means more score obtainable per note, and hence more score loss per note if a player gets an inaccurate hit or miss. If so, it creates an odd situation in which high combo count means score loss can be easily remedied by hitting more in sliders (drumrolls) or finishes, but a lot less feasible in low combo difficulties. The original scoring algorithm is fairer because it doesn't favor any side on both cases, so why bother replacing it?

Finish: I oppose the new proposal because of two reasons. One, changing the bonus multiplier from 2 to 4 is way too much. The penalty for not obtaining full finish score (either inaccurate hit or not hitting both sides) is way too harsh, considering 4 inaccurate normal notes equals to 1 inaccurate finish (Unmei explained this further). Two, it doesn't make sense to treat non-double-hit finish as a miss. This is utterly unfair to 2-finger players which I can personally confirm (frukoyurdakul and animexamera said the same thing).

Loctav wrote:

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?
Because they place a finger on each key, which is not always the case in taiko. If you're saying it's 2-finger players' fault, you're basically disregarding all the efforts they paid on this game. Also I don't get why unranked are to be ignored. Some of them did appear in mappool of twc6.

Drumrolls (Sliders): The forced 1/4 drumroll spacing makes no sense, since some songs have 1/3 or 1/6-based rhythm and the mappers already put slider tick rate 3 on them. Also it could be painful to play long drumrolls in high bpm (270? 300?). Besides, considering <30% hit as miss can be problematic because of notelocking. Players often miss all slider ticks if there is a note 1/4 before the drumroll unless they hit earlier/later purposefully (which doesn't fit the song rhythm, see what Onosaki wrote).

Spinners: My biggest concerns would be short spinners which have little time to hit. Forcing a miss for incomplete hits is likely to create significant score difference (in twc context), which I think is over-penalized.

And for the combo-breaking concept (for finishes, drumrolls and spinners), I don't think that's even needed, given players are already given less score if they fail to complete. In competitive environment like twc such score loss is already significant enough to provide them incentives to complete them, and further punishment seems to be overdone.

At least for me, the current scoring system is fine but this new proposal doesn't seem well-thought.
I am not sure if people here noticed or understood the construct of the 1 000 000 points so far, so keep in mind:

Score is composed of two parts. Accuracy score (80% or 800 000) and combo score (20% or 200 000). Accuracy score is determined by the correctness of your hits and ONLY by that. (Combo has no impact here, hitting all 300 gives you the 800 000). Vica Versa for the Combo portion, this is determined by your combo. (Max combo will give 200 000 points). Combo breaks only impact the 20%. 300/100/Miss only impact the 80%.
Right now, slider ticks are counted into combo score (however, this isn't right)
300/100 hits don't give exactly 300/100 or increased based on combo, they give score based on the amount of total notes and based on whether you hit right (300) or close to right (100). Same goes for combo score. A max combo will give you 200 000 points at the end (and hitting all ticks, which is silly so let's disregard that for the sake of explanation). Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.

Loctav wrote:

Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.
i'm sorry, but do you even know how score v1 works at all in taiko?
yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.

Loctav wrote:

yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.
Yes, but it caps out at 100 combo which means that currently you will get the same score if you break combo once no matter at what part of the song unless it's within the first and last 100 notes where you will lose less. What this achieves is predictability and consistency - even across different maps. On regular notes a combo break will net you about 40k score loss, no matter what map or where the combo break was. This system is inherently fair and predictable which can't be said about the new system which lacks the transparency of the current scoring system.

Loctav wrote:

capping out eventually
I hope you realise that 'eventually' is at 100 combo, so in your example (ignoring spinners/finishers/kiai) neither player would be 'extremely penalized' more so than the other. This is not standard, breaking combo mid-map vs early in the map has very little difference.
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