Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Highest score should be 1,000,000 without sliders?
And now is the good opportunity to change slider's specification.
Make it like original taiko's one (can get score by player beats)

P.S. Let us beat big notes by a hand. Converted maps annoy me..
Jason X

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses

Loctav wrote:

the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.
Not really. The finishers will be more effective than they were before, as in like, if a normal note's score is 1100, if that note would be a finisher, one key hit will give 550 points while 2 keys hit will give 4400. The score difference is about 3.8k for ONLY ONE finisher instead of 1.1k hence the score difference will be higher than before. Adding a combo break will destroy the points that will come for the rest of the map.

Btw JasonX: that is only discussed, not present right now. You miss if you don't hit finishers with 2 keys.

Jason X wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
that's a proposal, that's not in the game yet...

Loctav wrote:

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.
I'll leave opinion on health for now because of what was mentioned. As for why it slims options in gimmick maps, there are maps (again, I'll refer to Cirno here) where you have multiple finishers at 1/4 snapping. While it is playable (tried it myself!) depending on the speed of the map it could become extremely difficult to maintain combo compared to what people are used to. Would you not agree that a 4* multipler and a normal hit only being worth 1* is still a punishment to the player beyond breaking combo?
So, will this apply to converts as well?
I honestly don't think converts belong into this discussion. This is about tournament play, which doesn't have converts, and this also means, that it won't affect on regular play at all for some time! Additionally, converts aren't taiko maps - they are badly converted standard things.

HP drain is cruel though, good thing it's getting fixed : D

otherwise I love scorev2, finishers having importance is something I've always wanted. Might be too cruel for _some_ but they just have to learn to deal with it.

5urface wrote:

So, will this apply to converts as well?
Converted maps are just GOOD EXAMPLES in this case

I disagreed that big notes can be combobreak
Considering some posts and how people react in #taiko (which have become calmer by now tho), we should all take a step back, breathe in and out a few times and then actually see what this actually all means to us.

First of all, this is not about whether stuff will be implemented or not. That's out of the current question. Right now it is just requesting help from the community to help testing and refine current planed changes for the upcoming TWC with constructive and reasonable responses. So despite some wanting to show their dissatisfaction about this, it means not to rage around and predict the apocalypse of Taiko because it is in ones opinion bad. We need reasons (which some provided by now while I was writing) how to improve the mentioned points in the OP so smoogie can work with people to implement changes to make sure the scoring system works well for everyone. So I please you to follow this and stop bashing at each other. We can do better than this. Much better. Besides, so far only possible bad impacts have been mentioned but no one mentioned the good aspect of such change which I want to elaborate a bit (not exhaustive, since we don't wanna write a (big) wall of text, right?).

  1. Finisher: Big topic first, as our people seem to be for some reason terrified about the Finisher purpose with certain reasons(you don't have to repeat them at this point, we hear you!). Yes, in current test phase they are enforced. But whether they stay like that or not, such change gives us the possibility to have a ""new"" gameplay element in Taiko which finally makes it possible to compete against each other in a different aspect that is something else but DT for example. It is something our mode needs anyway, considering our stagnating situation and the fact that we managed it to be the least played mode, which has also a bit to do with the inaccessible possibility to compete in different ways.

  2. Sliders and Spinners: First, you really have to apologize this, but I'm amused how people talk about their purpose of implementation while 95% didn't even remotely witnessed the time it happened. Their insignificance crystallizes from the mode being previously a mod much like HD or HR which was just a 1 to 1 copy of TNT. There was no concept for these elements at all since even the Spinner just got adapted from the standard mode itself. We are with Taiko still in the year 2008 and really need an update which you may understand after this:

    As some already said, they were until now by far too insignificant in mapping and hence, not representive in gameplay either. The reason for this however are the bugs these game-elements since over 8 years have: Missing / offbeat sliderticks and big spinners which overlap upcoming notes, that generated over the years very stiff and restrictive rules for these elements. This is why we never see for example 1/4+sliders or very short spinners in a consecutive way. This is the first approach to fix such issues by finally shifting the significance to these two elements.

  3. Converts: While not sure why this is even a topic, I just want to mention that these will be (probably(let's be safe here)) sooner or later removed anyway as they were never a part of the game itself and just a compensation years ago when there were no specific Taiko maps at all. The random concept for converts has little to do with how Taiko works and hence has no impact into this topic at all.

Now after mentioning this, there are however some problems some of you guys already mentioned and which must be fixed before it can be actually considered / implemented. This is something dedicated to @smoogipooo for the actual purpose of this thread as I did my first observation today.

  1. HP: The biggest issue we have right now is the HP penality by missing a note which must be scaled down(especially because of already existing maps). So does a HP 6 map give you a fail after missing only 8 notes, which, when considering the possible finisher changes, is more than unforgiven. Also, connected with this is the notelock problem as people mentioned already. By hitting once the wrong note in a stream, it becomes nearly impossible to get into the stream again which makes one instantly fail after 8 notes. I did my test obviously, and aproximately HP 1 would be only feasable atm, but since the HP issues is known already anyway(as Loctav mentioned more than enough of times) it is enough to just give that impression and wait for further changes. Here a little list about this matter:

    HP 1: Fail -> 21 notes; Pass -> 20 notes
    HP 3: Fail -> 12 notes; Pass -> 11 notes
    HP 6: Fail -> 08 notes; Pass -> 07 notes

  2. Finisher: While being fine with them, they are unforgiving when appearing in a consecutive way like for example in Hige Driver join. SELEN - DA^10 with the current HP system. Once the HP system is fixed, that should be no problem anymore.

  3. Slider: The concept looks good, but since the significance of sliders rise, the significance of their bug fixes rises as well:
    → TWC related: When you place a drum roll in a 1/4 distance to the previous note the ticks become offbeat. Should be fixed.
    → General related: It should be avoided that maps only have one predefined tickrate the whole way through. Rather, it should be possible to have different tickrates in a map since different timing signatures may appear or certain 1/4 may simply just be too much / not fitting to the song. In this way it could be also considered to hit finisher sliders with both fingers when being able to change the tickrate manually.

  4. Spinner: As they become more significant as well, it should be considered to change the look of spinners to avoid them overlapping the whole playfild. In this way they can be used in a broader way.

Much like Tasha, who gave some good hints already, I am overall found of these changes and their ideas behind it, as it finally gives more aspects into a game which is already restricted due to bugs and problems which got never fixed / changed. It also makes us come finally one step closer to possible future changes and fixes. I will follow this up and give more opinions when I have something else to say.
Let's face it, I don't like the changes. There are many points as to why I don't like propositions - they're mostly judged through theory, I haven't had the chance to look at current scoring mode.

First of all, please do not compare two game modes. osu!mania has many things Taiko can't do: chordstreams, quadstreams, ln noodle spam, variable scrolling speed, casually hit 20 notes per second, and I sure do know I'm missing a lot more.

A little correction though, about normal notes:
Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
I think you meant 150. Inaccurate hits were never a third of the max score, they were half. If you have changed the behavior of score to become 100 rather than 150, this is a change.


For finishers, the 100 penalty makes no sense whatsoever in two positions:
  1. This makes accuracy count slightly wrong, ever so in more finisher heavy maps. You should judge accuracy though correct hitting of the notes in time, rather than how they were hit.
  2. Not applying the x4 bonus upon single-hitting the note and giving a 300 is a penalty large enough (you only get a quarter of the points after all) to give players an incentive to hit them all.

Simply put, you're better off giving a single 300 than a single/double 100. This should be the only way to do so. Tournaments are score oriented, so penalizing by losing 75% of the points is a good way to tell "No! You should hit them with both keys" rather than make the player wonder why they're getting a 100 despite being at most 10ms off. Also, did you account for bad hardware that will not correctly register big notes?


Rolls: I am strongly against forcing 1/4 snapping by all means. Force it on maps that don't use 3 slider tick rate, which is the only way to have 1/3 ticks. Other than that, I am ambivalent about the idea. It should depend on the song's speed, because hitting extreme speeds at 1/4 will never be done. Also, issues Ono mentioned: tick glitches.

Another solution would be to bring back spam sliders, score yield set to about 1 and added independently from the max score, so the max score is still 1,000,000 plus ticks hit. I don't remember how osu!standard spinners work in ScoreV2, though. It may be like this.


I am against giving a miss upon unsuccessful spinner completion, rather giving it only by hitting less than half the hits (except for short spinners requiring fewer than 4 hits), giving a 100 between miss threshold and completion (+ short spinners), and 300 upon completion.


Also, do not try to copy a gamemode's HP system. The values will be imbalanced if you do it. As Ono mentioned (and I trust him), this is not a good idea because you can miss a very tiny amount of notes and fail. While in osu!mania you can recover it quickly, in taiko you can't have the luxury of 25 notes per second to let you recover from a small choke. At least, adjust the values so it's more balanced!


At first I was quite revolted with the idea of changing everything but by discussing with some pals I realized there can be something done. My suggestions may not be the best, but I think that, as someone who's fiddled with the settings and found how everything can work together, you should at least see if any of these are good starting points.
ok fine, i'll reply again about what the big problem will be with the new HP system

currently all maps in taiko were designed for the current HP system. if i'm an experienced mapper, i know when to use HP5, HP6, etc. i know for long marathons i that i should drop to HP4 or below so players can pass. the new ranking criteria for kantan difficulties are pushing for more use of HP9 because they're too easy to pass otherwise. everything is done for a reason.

now think about this, you introduce a completely new form of HP. HP is now drain rate instead of recovery rate. what does that mean? it means all of the current HP values need to be flipped around. HP9 on a kantan suddenly isn't a good idea because new players will fail instantly with a single mistake. your HP4 marathon maps are now much easier to pass than they were before, and they're easier to pass than random HP6 maps. the current values for HP just won't make sense.

there's not much of a point adjusting the new system to work well on every current map and every HP value. (though if you do i'll be very impressed because that's gonna take a lot of tweaking, i've done a lot of development and testing stuff so i know how this works.) but in my opinion, making a new system and then having to fit the thousands of taiko maps already out there just doesn't seem like the right approach. and obviously you're not going to change the HP values for every single map that has already been made.

maybe the new HP system was a good idea on paper, but it just doesn't fit right at all to me.

smoogipooo wrote:

Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.
So when are we going to discuss Star Rating and PP?
hey so im pretty bad at taiko, but here are my opinions anyways:

- Finishers: I think this is a good change. I always saw hitting finishers with one note to be analogous to "slider cheesing" in standard. I hate to bring up the "intended playing experience", but I think that is relevant here. About this breaking some unranked/loved maps, ya that fuckin sucks. I hate this answer, but the only thing I can think of is having a mod that makes the map "finisher-less" for maybe like 0.9x score

- Drum rolls/spinners: Seems good on paper, but I'm not good enough to provide my own real opinions. What others have said about slider tick-locking seems valid, and that should be fixed.

- Health: So there's a pretty interesting circumstance here... As someone who comes from playing osu!standard and osu!mania, I'm uneasy with the concept of playing through an entire map out of my skill level, and only being punished at the end. That seems like the purpose of NF (with the punishment being, of course, the reduced score). While I don't know much about the scaling of this, I much prefer this new health system. I don't think there will be a huge difference except for beginners (such as myself), and I'll say that being able to know where you need more practice can be beneficial and motivating. About the notelocking thing, uhh, remove that, notelocking is stupid lol.

- 1 Million score limit: Only bringing this up because it's the perfect place to bring up the following. The reason scorev2 is being brought upon us is as an attempt to unify the currently very different gamemodes. I think this is a good idea, as they are, after all, all part of one game. Especially with the modularity of gamemodes that will be introduced, I believe it will be important to make some common mechanics (score, health, etc) somewhat similar across them. This is, however very challenging, because the vastly gameplay of each mode naturally brings up very different scoring systems, as the values of each mode are different (score is meant to be a representation of skill, after all). I don't have a solution, but I wanted to bring this up just so that people have that in mind while suggesting stuff. Though most of the suggestions have been about mechanics unique to taiko so maybe typing all this was a waste of time lol.

About the score limit itself, I don't really think it matters. It's just a different scaling.

Hopefully my thoughts from a taiko noob makes you think idk.

PS: what even is the point of the scorev2 mod ahah. i mean i guess its to try to get more testing on scorev2, but no one is ever going to use it because scores dont submit. if you actually want people to test your thing, make it calculate the scorev1 during the play, and submit that.

PSS (edit): Someone brought up the different playstyles a while ago (too lazy to quote). I think that the vastly different playstyles used by all sorts of taiko players is one of the best things about the gamemode. I think that the reason for this diversity comes from the freedom of how to hit the notes, like singletapping vs alternating on steroids. However there is a limit. People who play osu!std with mouse-only are at a disadvantage, just like 1 finger players should IMO. i probably triggered so many people xd
I might as well leave my few quick thoughts on score v2. Since this seems to be focused on ranked taiko maps, I'll leave any comments on converts and unranked maps (namely gimmicky ones) in spoilers. (note: edited a couple things for more clarity)

For finishers, I think the best way to implement this is keeping it like v1, where hitting the note with one key is worth much less points, but has the same accuracy and doesn't affect combo. With the new 1 million top score, it would be easier to understand how the finishers affect the total score, and it rewards players who hit finishers much more than it does in score v1. As long as they aren't combo-breakers, I'm fine with them. The timing on finishers would probably have to be cleaned up, too. Gimmick maps seem to be gaining popularity, so I don't think they should be ignored entirely. I think maps like Planet/Shaper will end up being broken with v2 no matter what happens, but it would be nice to be able to play some of the tamer ones with tons of finishers (cirno's math class). As for converts... well, they had it coming to them. It would certainly make the leaderboards for them interesting, so long as anyone still plays them.

I like the changes to sliders, here. Like the finishers, the timing would probably have to be cleaned up since if the note is too close to the slider, it makes it easy for the slider to not register any hits. The new slider scoring stops people from getting #1 on easy converts with HT ;) Also I know there's some unranked maps with dumb sliders (including TnT songs) that would make a combo-break with a slider very annoying. They already affect the total score out of 1 million, so perhaps they don't need to combo-break? It's only a small problem.

No problems with the spinners. Having them miss might affect a few gimmick maps with spinner spam. I never liked spinner spam in gimmick maps to begin with, though... Not a big problem, regardless.

I like the new HP system, too. It's annoying to get to the end of a hard map wondering if you have enough hp, only to find out you failed. I played through some HP10 maps in v2, and I was fine with how the drain worked. It seems you guys will be tweaking this, anyways. It makes failing to 1/8 in converts a thing, but I usually end up not passing heavy 1/8 spam maps anyways.

The scoring is fine, from what I've seen. I've always liked accuracy based scoring more than combo, and this is much more forgiving with combo-breaks, which is helpful, considering that there's more ways to break combo now.

In short, I don't like the new sources of combo-breaks, and the finishers are somewhat wonky, but pretty much everything else is fine.
After ranting about it before now I went and actually played a couple of maps in Score V2 and surprise surprise - the current system is surprisingly .... bad.

Before seriously implementing v2 the bugs need to be fixed, especially drumroll and spinner hit registration.
With those fixes in place making these elements hit objects that can break combo is fine.

HP drain as of right now is utterly brutal, this still needs serious rebalance. If this is properly balanced to not instakill you when you miss one note in a stream you can't get back into because Taiko is being Taiko the new system might be decent.

Finishers that break combo need to go. Just award points and accuracy like a regular note if hit with one button and award 4x score if hit with both - This is enough incentive to play them and punishment if not played to full potential especially considering the new maximum score.
Also this would not entirely break converts (in case Score V2 will ever make it to the main client as scoring system). Hate them as you may, they are a part of Osu! Taiko and are ranked so you have to bear with it. Many play converts because they are a different challenge to regular Taiko maps, are actually fun to play and many songs aren't mapped in Taiko. Some people actually play for the music and not pp -.-

The main issue I still have is that the entire map pool is based on and balanced around the current system. With literally tens of thousands of maps to consider rebalancing this will be impossible, some maps will come out ahead, some behind and some will be entirely broken to crash and burn in most spectecular fashion. While most ranked maps might be at least somewhat okay this will be most evident in the vast selection of unranked maps that are such a crucial part of the taiko community.
Who are you to deny the efforts and time those map creators have sacrificed to offer the community this amazing mappool only to have their work be rendered useless by a new scoring system?

Jason X wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
and me ...
If we are going to mention notelocking as an issue in this thread, I want to know if anything will be done about map-specific SV (not HR) on 16:9 vs. 4:3 screen resolutions?

I have already got used to 16:9 a bit more over the past months, but as a 4:3 resolution main I've attempted some comparisons and I came to the conclusion that it seems like the viewfield-width on 16:9 is not being scaled properly to map-SV like HR is (or even HD with its black rectangle on the right) and causes maps with fast SV to become much easier to read compared to 4:3, resulting 4:3 to be more of a handicap than anything.

With this being focused on for TWC 2017, I want to add to that focus by alluding this SV-scaling issue. My fear is that devs/map pickers are not aware of this and will pick maps that are close to impossible to read with 4:3, albeit this point may be subjective and egocentric. However, in TWC 2016 Finals DT map pool, this map was picked and I was certain to bail out from playing this because this was extremely harsh to read on 4:3. The map is fast on 16:9 too, yes, but I noticed I was able to combo it much better, eventually getting a sloppy Full Combo during a session with 16:9.

Concluding, I do want to point out it was not my aim to appear salty by mentioning this, given that with 16:9 most of the PP rewarding standard converts like this map appear easier to play and me still playing 4:3, but it is still an issue which at least has earned the right to be mentioned. I haven't checked 16:9 vs. 4:3 scaling on the other modes, but if they do scale, then it is definitely an issue. I will also say that I'm not hoping for a fix anytime soon, as I can see such a fix having no purpose if 4:3 is perhaps being removed entirely with osu!next, but I am hoping to at least have awoken some attention towards 4:3 players, so maps like YuYu Metal can be avoided for the upcoming TWC.


As with scorev2:

You have issued more mechanics that will change with scorev2 than actual "score" elements. So what are the changes to scoring going to be? The only thing I see is implied by OP, where there is going to be a 1,000,000 score cap like in mania and standard (afaik), and it is also stated that normal notes will continue to give a constant value towards that score. But how are you going to make sure the 1,000,000 score cap is reached? The points given must scale somehow to presume that cap, right? How will that be done? Is it just going to be along the lines of "single_note_score = 1,000,000 / (Total Notes - (Other score%s))"? How much is the score affected by Combo like it is at the moment with its original Taiko no Tatsujin scoring increments until 100 Combo? Will there be penalties for missing like in standard? Forgive me if that has been said before, but I do want some clarification here.


- osu!mania HP drain is harsh but not as harsh as osu!standard, so objectively I'm fine with the HP drain thing coming to osu!taiko, as long as notelocking will be fixed. However, I do agree with some people mentioning already existing maps being in a disadvantageous spot if this were to be implemented. I'd vouch for a HP drain rate value that scales to e.g. OD instead of having HP as a separate value set by the mapper next to OD.

- Spinners and drum rolls make sense in terms of them now having more purpose towards combo and score than they have at the moment. The forced 1/4 spacing seems like an attempt to prevent things like 1/8 drum rolls at e.g. 300 bpm or something similar, but I am not sure what this will mean for the mapping aspect and for all of the already existing maps, so I will stay neutral here.

- For the purpose of TWC 2017, having Finishers being forced to be played as a double tap note and otherwise resulting in a miss seems reasonable. But if this were to be implemented live, I can see a new PP algorithm or a complete reiteration of all players' current PP values for osu!taiko being required. I am most concerned about standard converts here.

For a TWC setting, I wouldn't mind these changes at all. However, if this were to go live, I'd like to see PP being adjusted first. Furthermore, as you can see, unranked/loved maps will be a great issue to so many players (including me, I admit), but I can't think of any good way to solve this. It is easy to disable scoring entirely for unranked maps, but I'm not sure what will happen to Loved maps and the Loved state itself. I also don't know how much the new mechanics will influence mapping, but I'm sure they will.
Something else I just noticed - Did you guys forget about Kiai Time?

It seems like Kiai Time doesn't effect hit scores whatsoever. Shouldn't it still add 20% score bonus?
i bet u guys worked real hard on this and were really proud of it and excited to share it
So kiai time will make me blind even on scorev2 *sigh*

On one hand I love how big notes will force players to play the maps as they were intended to, but spinners and drum rolls feel like they shouldn't be so strict, especially that they have little to do with "rhythm" I know, contradicting myself right from the start. Spinners are a bit easier to argue against, as they are great in concept but awful at execution (why would you need to mash more if the OD is higher, when the song is the same?). Drum rolls are basically lenient streams in most of the cases; I feel like their main purpose is filling out streams in easier difficulties. I don't really have enough experience as a mapper to comment on drum roll gimmick maps, so I won't comment on it. I feel that they need a rework (maybe don/kat sliders where you have to hold and release, much like in mania but colour based? Loctav mentioned that they aren't afraid turning taiko away from TnT, so experimenting with changing these elements shouldn't be unthinkable.)

I thought the score would be weighting combo as much as in std, but gladly, this does not seem to be the case. However, score rankings will absolutely lose their meaning in all of the modes with scorev2 with the 1m cap. Why would I try to fc long hard stuff if I could just spam 30 second maps for the same score? As for people arguing that big notes shouldn't break the combo, as 4x score is significant enough of an award - outside of tournaments people won't give a damn about big notes.

I think the worst element of the scorev2 is the HP update. Taiko has the best HP system of all the modes. Obviously notelocking is a huge reason, but I think tons of people prefer taiko's HP system over mania's. It'll force some players to use NF when they just want to play some maps. Also it is very traumatising if you lose a tournament match because you failed at the end, while the enemy team had people failing left and right during the map, but managed to climb back at the end. Looking at the whole performance instead of certain segments makes more sense for HP Unless on maps that have unreasonable difficulty spikes.

Overall I have mixed feelings about this.
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