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posted
I agree that the notelocking on spinners and slider ticks is a problem and I think the notelocking actually needs to go. (tbh I never got why they were a thing in the first place)

I agree that drum rolls and spinners are supposed to yield the "bonus score", but I also think that you need to at least perform on them a bit. hence why you need to hit 30% of the drum roll ticks, everything above stays optional.

For spinners, I think we can implement some sort of tiering that turns them into more than just "either complete or miss", something like "if you hit at least the half of the ticks, you get a 100, if you didnt even bother hitting the half of it, you miss".

Drum rolls and spinners therefore still contain their function of yielding the bonus score, however, you need to play them at least a bit to not miss entirely (therefore punishing it to ignore it at all).

Yes, HP scaling is off the roof and will be fixed.

Drum roll ticks forced to 1/4 is only an issue because of tick locking, right? If tick locking wouldnt be so retarded, this wouldnt even be an issue. Especially if you just have to hit 30% of the ticks.
And yes, Drum roll points should be a bonus score and dont count into the combo portion, I agree here.

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
posted

agu wrote:

Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.
I'm saying that they should remain optional or at least give you 100s (which is probably the better way to do it). Also Finishers currently only give you 2x points which isn't very rewarding, but 4x sound pretty fair to me.

This isn't even the final version.. Im just making some suggestions.
posted
"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?
posted
I wonder what brought upon the catalyst for change...?

Notelocking is the only thing that makes this osu!taiko stand out from regular TnT, when you really think about it. I don't think notelocking is a problem, it prevents button mashing from being a thing.
posted

agu wrote:

"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?
i think so, rip the most plays on Da x10 and other maps with Finisher Kiais

also, how should beginners play this? i saw a lot of players that can't play finishers not even in Kantan diffs
posted
@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse
posted

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.
posted

Loctav wrote:

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.
posted
Opinions on stuff in blue

smoogipooo wrote:

  1. Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
    Everything's good here
  1. Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
    I'm guessing you meant 'drum roll' to be 'finisher' here. This is a positive change!

  2. Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
    While conceptually I like this change I feel it'll hinder variety if map pool selectors decide to use any gimmick maps (PS: Please do, we've been bombarded by the same types of maps for so long without any SV / gimmick picks to choose from for reading oriented players). Perhaps instead of forcing a miss leave this at the new 4* multiplier? This already alleviates a lot of the problems with finishers having very little value.
  1. Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
    Ok

  2. Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
    I would consider this an issue but there was already discussion about fixing sliders to have 1/3 in 1/3 snap maps (this has needed to happen for FOREVER)

  3. Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
    Very good change, this allows players and commentators to get a much better idea of where extra score is coming from

  4. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
    So this is either a combo break or extra points (previously completion of a drum roll gave no points barring the ticks). Also has minor impact on gimmick maps explained later.

  5. Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
    Good change considering health changes below
  1. A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
    I'm cool with this but this (mostly along with the health changes) makes certain gimmick maps impossible to pass (Cirno's Perfect Math Class for example from loved category) limiting diverse / gimmick maps that could be included in the pools. This is otherwise fine for maps that do not abuse scorev1 spinner health drain. Possible solution to this explained in health.
  2. A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
    No issues here.

  3. Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
    Same as above.
  1. Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
    This is the biggest and probably most interesting change made. Depending on what maps you look at this has pros and cons. Some of these cons have solutions.

    The biggest cons is how this impacts maps that use spinners in an abusive way. There are some maps that would use spinners as intentional health drain by throwing multiple short duration spinners at you (Hi Cirno!) that will have immediate fails in scorev2 upon getting to these sections (unless you can play these sections somehow, there are like 1-2 people who can). A possible solution to this is to drastically lower the amount of health lost from a failed spinner or to not have spinner misses impact health and only impact score. I had originally thought this would impact drumrolls as well, but after testing maps that use 'note sliders' (no length sliders basically) such as the ones in Cirno's Perfect Math Class, combo break is not being forced so no health is being lost. Due to this they are not impacted by the health changes, so this is only a problem with spinners.

    Positives of this include a healthier tournament system (failing is now possible) and a system that more accurately depicts if you are passing or failing a section, making it easier to understand for both players and viewers at an immediate glance instead of just "is my health bar above the pass line"
Overall? I like the changes quite a bit, especially for a tournament setting. Having the ability for a player to fail or even a team to all fail at once if one player out of three can't hit a difficult section brings a lot more competitiveness to a tournament setting. Score scaling also makes much more sense now and single misses aren't nearly as significant as accuracy and overall consistency compared to scorev1. I however still believe that there should be changes made before this is finalized to allow as diverse a mappool as possible.
posted

5urface wrote:

@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

well, given that you only have to hit 30% of them, hitting only the 1/2 ticks of them works just fine. in original TnT (even though this isnt really a valid point), they are even free spam parts where you can hit as fast as you want. Drumrolls should be, in my idea, a part where you just hit as fast as possible whatever possible (consider you can hit dons and kats on drumrolls in any sort of combination). Maybe we can scale the amount of completion required with OD? That would scale the needed percentage down in Kantans and Futsuus, as they have a lower OD.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo

given that combo score only occupies a small minority of scorev2 (30%? 20%? even less?), breaking combo penalizes the score you gain via combo, but the biggest portion will still remain accuracy, which a miss would impact way high than a 100. It's decreasing the penalty in every way, but I still believe that making the combo break is crucial to measure the combo portion of the score properly. Keep in mind that scorev2 does not use the classic score tiering upon combo like scorev2!


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse

don't forget that this isnt been replacing scorev1. At least not in its current stage. Before this even happens (and the concerned appliance on kantans and futsuus), it will need to undergo plenty of revision first, like we do here. right now it is oriented for top level play and doesnt account lower difficulties perfectly just yet. So that is still open for debate how this system can be applied without breaking all kantans and futsuus altogether.

Catgirl wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.
yes, it gives you more accuracy score. read the quote reply above concerning how scorev2 separates score into an accuracy and combo portion.

frukoyurdakul wrote:

Loctav wrote:

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.
the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.
posted
Highest score should be 1,000,000 without sliders?
And now is the good opportunity to change slider's specification.
Make it like original taiko's one (can get score by player beats)

P.S. Let us beat big notes by a hand. Converted maps annoy me..
posted

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
posted
:?

Loctav wrote:

the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.
Not really. The finishers will be more effective than they were before, as in like, if a normal note's score is 1100, if that note would be a finisher, one key hit will give 550 points while 2 keys hit will give 4400. The score difference is about 3.8k for ONLY ONE finisher instead of 1.1k hence the score difference will be higher than before. Adding a combo break will destroy the points that will come for the rest of the map.

Btw JasonX: that is only discussed, not present right now. You miss if you don't hit finishers with 2 keys.
posted

Jason X wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
that's a proposal, that's not in the game yet...
posted

Loctav wrote:

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.
I'll leave opinion on health for now because of what was mentioned. As for why it slims options in gimmick maps, there are maps (again, I'll refer to Cirno here) where you have multiple finishers at 1/4 snapping. While it is playable (tried it myself!) depending on the speed of the map it could become extremely difficult to maintain combo compared to what people are used to. Would you not agree that a 4* multipler and a normal hit only being worth 1* is still a punishment to the player beyond breaking combo?
posted
So, will this apply to converts as well?
posted
I honestly don't think converts belong into this discussion. This is about tournament play, which doesn't have converts, and this also means, that it won't affect on regular play at all for some time! Additionally, converts aren't taiko maps - they are badly converted standard things.

HP drain is cruel though, good thing it's getting fixed : D


otherwise I love scorev2, finishers having importance is something I've always wanted. Might be too cruel for _some_ but they just have to learn to deal with it.
posted

5urface wrote:

So, will this apply to converts as well?
Converted maps are just GOOD EXAMPLES in this case

I disagreed that big notes can be combobreak
posted
Considering some posts and how people react in #taiko (which have become calmer by now tho), we should all take a step back, breathe in and out a few times and then actually see what this actually all means to us.

First of all, this is not about whether stuff will be implemented or not. That's out of the current question. Right now it is just requesting help from the community to help testing and refine current planed changes for the upcoming TWC with constructive and reasonable responses. So despite some wanting to show their dissatisfaction about this, it means not to rage around and predict the apocalypse of Taiko because it is in ones opinion bad. We need reasons (which some provided by now while I was writing) how to improve the mentioned points in the OP so smoogie can work with people to implement changes to make sure the scoring system works well for everyone. So I please you to follow this and stop bashing at each other. We can do better than this. Much better. Besides, so far only possible bad impacts have been mentioned but no one mentioned the good aspect of such change which I want to elaborate a bit (not exhaustive, since we don't wanna write a (big) wall of text, right?).


  1. Finisher: Big topic first, as our people seem to be for some reason terrified about the Finisher purpose with certain reasons(you don't have to repeat them at this point, we hear you!). Yes, in current test phase they are enforced. But whether they stay like that or not, such change gives us the possibility to have a ""new"" gameplay element in Taiko which finally makes it possible to compete against each other in a different aspect that is something else but DT for example. It is something our mode needs anyway, considering our stagnating situation and the fact that we managed it to be the least played mode, which has also a bit to do with the inaccessible possibility to compete in different ways.

  2. Sliders and Spinners: First, you really have to apologize this, but I'm amused how people talk about their purpose of implementation while 95% didn't even remotely witnessed the time it happened. Their insignificance crystallizes from the mode being previously a mod much like HD or HR which was just a 1 to 1 copy of TNT. There was no concept for these elements at all since even the Spinner just got adapted from the standard mode itself. We are with Taiko still in the year 2008 and really need an update which you may understand after this:

    As some already said, they were until now by far too insignificant in mapping and hence, not representive in gameplay either. The reason for this however are the bugs these game-elements since over 8 years have: Missing / offbeat sliderticks and big spinners which overlap upcoming notes, that generated over the years very stiff and restrictive rules for these elements. This is why we never see for example 1/4+sliders or very short spinners in a consecutive way. This is the first approach to fix such issues by finally shifting the significance to these two elements.

  3. Converts: While not sure why this is even a topic, I just want to mention that these will be (probably(let's be safe here)) sooner or later removed anyway as they were never a part of the game itself and just a compensation years ago when there were no specific Taiko maps at all. The random concept for converts has little to do with how Taiko works and hence has no impact into this topic at all.


Now after mentioning this, there are however some problems some of you guys already mentioned and which must be fixed before it can be actually considered / implemented. This is something dedicated to @smoogipooo for the actual purpose of this thread as I did my first observation today.

  1. HP: The biggest issue we have right now is the HP penality by missing a note which must be scaled down(especially because of already existing maps). So does a HP 6 map give you a fail after missing only 8 notes, which, when considering the possible finisher changes, is more than unforgiven. Also, connected with this is the notelock problem as people mentioned already. By hitting once the wrong note in a stream, it becomes nearly impossible to get into the stream again which makes one instantly fail after 8 notes. I did my test obviously, and aproximately HP 1 would be only feasable atm, but since the HP issues is known already anyway(as Loctav mentioned more than enough of times) it is enough to just give that impression and wait for further changes. Here a little list about this matter:

    HP 1: Fail -> 21 notes; Pass -> 20 notes
    HP 3: Fail -> 12 notes; Pass -> 11 notes
    HP 6: Fail -> 08 notes; Pass -> 07 notes

  2. Finisher: While being fine with them, they are unforgiving when appearing in a consecutive way like for example in Hige Driver join. SELEN - DA^10 with the current HP system. Once the HP system is fixed, that should be no problem anymore.

  3. Slider: The concept looks good, but since the significance of sliders rise, the significance of their bug fixes rises as well:
    → TWC related: When you place a drum roll in a 1/4 distance to the previous note the ticks become offbeat. Should be fixed.
    → General related: It should be avoided that maps only have one predefined tickrate the whole way through. Rather, it should be possible to have different tickrates in a map since different timing signatures may appear or certain 1/4 may simply just be too much / not fitting to the song. In this way it could be also considered to hit finisher sliders with both fingers when being able to change the tickrate manually.

  4. Spinner: As they become more significant as well, it should be considered to change the look of spinners to avoid them overlapping the whole playfild. In this way they can be used in a broader way.


Much like Tasha, who gave some good hints already, I am overall found of these changes and their ideas behind it, as it finally gives more aspects into a game which is already restricted due to bugs and problems which got never fixed / changed. It also makes us come finally one step closer to possible future changes and fixes. I will follow this up and give more opinions when I have something else to say.
posted
Let's face it, I don't like the changes. There are many points as to why I don't like propositions - they're mostly judged through theory, I haven't had the chance to look at current scoring mode.

First of all, please do not compare two game modes. osu!mania has many things Taiko can't do: chordstreams, quadstreams, ln noodle spam, variable scrolling speed, casually hit 20 notes per second, and I sure do know I'm missing a lot more.

A little correction though, about normal notes:
Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
I think you meant 150. Inaccurate hits were never a third of the max score, they were half. If you have changed the behavior of score to become 100 rather than 150, this is a change.

———

For finishers, the 100 penalty makes no sense whatsoever in two positions:
  1. This makes accuracy count slightly wrong, ever so in more finisher heavy maps. You should judge accuracy though correct hitting of the notes in time, rather than how they were hit.
  2. Not applying the x4 bonus upon single-hitting the note and giving a 300 is a penalty large enough (you only get a quarter of the points after all) to give players an incentive to hit them all.

Simply put, you're better off giving a single 300 than a single/double 100. This should be the only way to do so. Tournaments are score oriented, so penalizing by losing 75% of the points is a good way to tell "No! You should hit them with both keys" rather than make the player wonder why they're getting a 100 despite being at most 10ms off. Also, did you account for bad hardware that will not correctly register big notes?

———

Rolls: I am strongly against forcing 1/4 snapping by all means. Force it on maps that don't use 3 slider tick rate, which is the only way to have 1/3 ticks. Other than that, I am ambivalent about the idea. It should depend on the song's speed, because hitting extreme speeds at 1/4 will never be done. Also, issues Ono mentioned: tick glitches.

Another solution would be to bring back spam sliders, score yield set to about 1 and added independently from the max score, so the max score is still 1,000,000 plus ticks hit. I don't remember how osu!standard spinners work in ScoreV2, though. It may be like this.

———

Spinners:
I am against giving a miss upon unsuccessful spinner completion, rather giving it only by hitting less than half the hits (except for short spinners requiring fewer than 4 hits), giving a 100 between miss threshold and completion (+ short spinners), and 300 upon completion.

———

Also, do not try to copy a gamemode's HP system. The values will be imbalanced if you do it. As Ono mentioned (and I trust him), this is not a good idea because you can miss a very tiny amount of notes and fail. While in osu!mania you can recover it quickly, in taiko you can't have the luxury of 25 notes per second to let you recover from a small choke. At least, adjust the values so it's more balanced!

———

At first I was quite revolted with the idea of changing everything but by discussing with some pals I realized there can be something done. My suggestions may not be the best, but I think that, as someone who's fiddled with the settings and found how everything can work together, you should at least see if any of these are good starting points.
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