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posted

Jason X wrote:

agu wrote:

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.
if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about
??? I'm against these changes. As far as I can see, you seem to be too.
posted
I actually think that the ScoreV2 system isn't that bad.
It implements some good features like giving more reward for Finishers.
But hitting them should still remain optional or at least give you the same amount of points as an inaccurate hit if you single tap it.

Endaris wrote:

Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.
I can definitely agree with that.


Besides that the changes don't seem as bad as everyone says..
posted
Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.
posted
I agree that the notelocking on spinners and slider ticks is a problem and I think the notelocking actually needs to go. (tbh I never got why they were a thing in the first place)

I agree that drum rolls and spinners are supposed to yield the "bonus score", but I also think that you need to at least perform on them a bit. hence why you need to hit 30% of the drum roll ticks, everything above stays optional.

For spinners, I think we can implement some sort of tiering that turns them into more than just "either complete or miss", something like "if you hit at least the half of the ticks, you get a 100, if you didnt even bother hitting the half of it, you miss".

Drum rolls and spinners therefore still contain their function of yielding the bonus score, however, you need to play them at least a bit to not miss entirely (therefore punishing it to ignore it at all).

Yes, HP scaling is off the roof and will be fixed.

Drum roll ticks forced to 1/4 is only an issue because of tick locking, right? If tick locking wouldnt be so retarded, this wouldnt even be an issue. Especially if you just have to hit 30% of the ticks.
And yes, Drum roll points should be a bonus score and dont count into the combo portion, I agree here.

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
posted

agu wrote:

Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.
I'm saying that they should remain optional or at least give you 100s (which is probably the better way to do it). Also Finishers currently only give you 2x points which isn't very rewarding, but 4x sound pretty fair to me.

This isn't even the final version.. Im just making some suggestions.
posted
"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?
posted
I wonder what brought upon the catalyst for change...?

Notelocking is the only thing that makes this osu!taiko stand out from regular TnT, when you really think about it. I don't think notelocking is a problem, it prevents button mashing from being a thing.
posted

agu wrote:

"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?
i think so, rip the most plays on Da x10 and other maps with Finisher Kiais

also, how should beginners play this? i saw a lot of players that can't play finishers not even in Kantan diffs
posted
@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse
posted

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.
posted

Loctav wrote:

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.
posted
Opinions on stuff in blue

smoogipooo wrote:

  1. Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
    Everything's good here
  1. Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
    I'm guessing you meant 'drum roll' to be 'finisher' here. This is a positive change!

  2. Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
    While conceptually I like this change I feel it'll hinder variety if map pool selectors decide to use any gimmick maps (PS: Please do, we've been bombarded by the same types of maps for so long without any SV / gimmick picks to choose from for reading oriented players). Perhaps instead of forcing a miss leave this at the new 4* multiplier? This already alleviates a lot of the problems with finishers having very little value.
  1. Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
    Ok

  2. Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
    I would consider this an issue but there was already discussion about fixing sliders to have 1/3 in 1/3 snap maps (this has needed to happen for FOREVER)

  3. Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
    Very good change, this allows players and commentators to get a much better idea of where extra score is coming from

  4. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
    So this is either a combo break or extra points (previously completion of a drum roll gave no points barring the ticks). Also has minor impact on gimmick maps explained later.

  5. Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
    Good change considering health changes below
  1. A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
    I'm cool with this but this (mostly along with the health changes) makes certain gimmick maps impossible to pass (Cirno's Perfect Math Class for example from loved category) limiting diverse / gimmick maps that could be included in the pools. This is otherwise fine for maps that do not abuse scorev1 spinner health drain. Possible solution to this explained in health.
  2. A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
    No issues here.

  3. Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
    Same as above.
  1. Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
    This is the biggest and probably most interesting change made. Depending on what maps you look at this has pros and cons. Some of these cons have solutions.

    The biggest cons is how this impacts maps that use spinners in an abusive way. There are some maps that would use spinners as intentional health drain by throwing multiple short duration spinners at you (Hi Cirno!) that will have immediate fails in scorev2 upon getting to these sections (unless you can play these sections somehow, there are like 1-2 people who can). A possible solution to this is to drastically lower the amount of health lost from a failed spinner or to not have spinner misses impact health and only impact score. I had originally thought this would impact drumrolls as well, but after testing maps that use 'note sliders' (no length sliders basically) such as the ones in Cirno's Perfect Math Class, combo break is not being forced so no health is being lost. Due to this they are not impacted by the health changes, so this is only a problem with spinners.

    Positives of this include a healthier tournament system (failing is now possible) and a system that more accurately depicts if you are passing or failing a section, making it easier to understand for both players and viewers at an immediate glance instead of just "is my health bar above the pass line"
Overall? I like the changes quite a bit, especially for a tournament setting. Having the ability for a player to fail or even a team to all fail at once if one player out of three can't hit a difficult section brings a lot more competitiveness to a tournament setting. Score scaling also makes much more sense now and single misses aren't nearly as significant as accuracy and overall consistency compared to scorev1. I however still believe that there should be changes made before this is finalized to allow as diverse a mappool as possible.
posted

5urface wrote:

@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

well, given that you only have to hit 30% of them, hitting only the 1/2 ticks of them works just fine. in original TnT (even though this isnt really a valid point), they are even free spam parts where you can hit as fast as you want. Drumrolls should be, in my idea, a part where you just hit as fast as possible whatever possible (consider you can hit dons and kats on drumrolls in any sort of combination). Maybe we can scale the amount of completion required with OD? That would scale the needed percentage down in Kantans and Futsuus, as they have a lower OD.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo

given that combo score only occupies a small minority of scorev2 (30%? 20%? even less?), breaking combo penalizes the score you gain via combo, but the biggest portion will still remain accuracy, which a miss would impact way high than a 100. It's decreasing the penalty in every way, but I still believe that making the combo break is crucial to measure the combo portion of the score properly. Keep in mind that scorev2 does not use the classic score tiering upon combo like scorev2!


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse

don't forget that this isnt been replacing scorev1. At least not in its current stage. Before this even happens (and the concerned appliance on kantans and futsuus), it will need to undergo plenty of revision first, like we do here. right now it is oriented for top level play and doesnt account lower difficulties perfectly just yet. So that is still open for debate how this system can be applied without breaking all kantans and futsuus altogether.

Catgirl wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.
yes, it gives you more accuracy score. read the quote reply above concerning how scorev2 separates score into an accuracy and combo portion.

frukoyurdakul wrote:

Loctav wrote:

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.
the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.
posted
Highest score should be 1,000,000 without sliders?
And now is the good opportunity to change slider's specification.
Make it like original taiko's one (can get score by player beats)

P.S. Let us beat big notes by a hand. Converted maps annoy me..
posted

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
posted
:?

Loctav wrote:

the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.
Not really. The finishers will be more effective than they were before, as in like, if a normal note's score is 1100, if that note would be a finisher, one key hit will give 550 points while 2 keys hit will give 4400. The score difference is about 3.8k for ONLY ONE finisher instead of 1.1k hence the score difference will be higher than before. Adding a combo break will destroy the points that will come for the rest of the map.

Btw JasonX: that is only discussed, not present right now. You miss if you don't hit finishers with 2 keys.
posted

Jason X wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
that's a proposal, that's not in the game yet...
posted

Loctav wrote:

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.
I'll leave opinion on health for now because of what was mentioned. As for why it slims options in gimmick maps, there are maps (again, I'll refer to Cirno here) where you have multiple finishers at 1/4 snapping. While it is playable (tried it myself!) depending on the speed of the map it could become extremely difficult to maintain combo compared to what people are used to. Would you not agree that a 4* multipler and a normal hit only being worth 1* is still a punishment to the player beyond breaking combo?
posted
So, will this apply to converts as well?
posted
I honestly don't think converts belong into this discussion. This is about tournament play, which doesn't have converts, and this also means, that it won't affect on regular play at all for some time! Additionally, converts aren't taiko maps - they are badly converted standard things.

HP drain is cruel though, good thing it's getting fixed : D


otherwise I love scorev2, finishers having importance is something I've always wanted. Might be too cruel for _some_ but they just have to learn to deal with it.
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